Author Topic: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities  (Read 74316 times)

Offline Garryl

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NI CL/ML? Might be some good spells in the RoS handbook to use with that.
Might want to mention Touchsight in the NI senses. The power scales at 10 ft/ML, so with Widen Power (or whichever metapsionic feat it is), it will be 4x the radius of the 5ft/ML telepathy/mindsight.

Offline Bastian

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Updated it with info on the errata that allows Pun-pun to have abilities from all editions. Thanks to JohnnyMayHymn and awaken_D_M_golem.

Offline Halinn

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The NI manifester level is not mentioned explicitly. I imagine that the simplest method is just through NI levels

Offline Quillwraith

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We should be able to manage aleph 1.
2^(aleph0) ≥ aleph1, so we find a way to square one of his stats, then a way to repeat it an infinite number of times.

Offline Garryl

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Updated it with info on the errata that allows Pun-pun to have abilities from all editions. Thanks to JohnnyMayHymn and awaken_D_M_golem.

What's the wording on the various abilities that give Pun-Pun abilities? The older edition abilities may not be graspable, given that they are neither extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural, or natural to my knowledge.

Offline Halinn

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Updated it with info on the errata that allows Pun-pun to have abilities from all editions. Thanks to JohnnyMayHymn and awaken_D_M_golem.

What's the wording on the various abilities that give Pun-Pun abilities? The older edition abilities may not be graspable, given that they are neither extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural, or natural to my knowledge.
If untyped, default to either extraordinary or natural. He could also just take levels in the various other edition classes :D

Offline Garryl

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Updated it with info on the errata that allows Pun-pun to have abilities from all editions. Thanks to JohnnyMayHymn and awaken_D_M_golem.

What's the wording on the various abilities that give Pun-Pun abilities? The older edition abilities may not be graspable, given that they are neither extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural, or natural to my knowledge.
If untyped, default to either extraordinary or natural. He could also just take levels in the various other edition classes :D

Not many of them. Even if he counts as human (and why wouldn't he?), dual-classing can still only be done among the list of valid multiclass combinations. And if the most recent source prevails on that, well, 4E's multiclassing rules are even worse for Pun-Pun, because I'm pretty sure there's no multiclass feat for Magic-Users, Fighting Men, Elves, Cavaliers, etc.. Might be able to hybrid them, at least.

Offline Halinn

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That can probably be solved with selective reading from 3e multiclass rules, which is also part of 4essential rules :p

Offline Bastian

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To get abilities that can't be gotten by Itself or with Manipulate Form, all It has to do is use various Fusion tricks.

Offline jywu98

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Dunno if mentioned before, but:
Quote from: Elder Evils
Impervious to the Divine:
An elder evil that has this property cannot be affected by divine magic of any kind, regardless of the source.
Benefit: The elder evil is immune to all divine spells, whether from a spellcaster or a magic item. It is also immune to spell-like and supernatural abilities of extraplanar creatures and deities.
This ability is always active.

Offline dman11235

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That's a double-edged sword.  That makes Pun-Pun immune to all deities, but also to himself.
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Offline dman11235

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From the Painisher, an idea for infinite xp (and thus infinite HD).  Kill an infinite number of creatures.  That part is obvious.  However.....

Some planes are infinitely large, correct?  So....destroy a plane.  Doesn't Pun-Pun have infinite reach?  And whirlwind attack dealing infinite damage with an infinite attack bonus?  Do that.  Kill an infinite number of creatures.  With one action, that way you don't level up, making anyone with a CR of at least 6 lower still give xp.  The problem I see is when he can do this.  If he can't until NI HD, then it can still maybe happen, just only killing things with NI HD.

I'm kinda on the fence on this one though, it doesn't seem like it should be possible, and I have a feeling I'm just missing something insanely obvious and it can't actually work.
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Offline Bastian

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From the Painisher, an idea for infinite xp (and thus infinite HD).  Kill an infinite number of creatures.  That part is obvious.  However.....

Some planes are infinitely large, correct?  So....destroy a plane.  Doesn't Pun-Pun have infinite reach?  And whirlwind attack dealing infinite damage with an infinite attack bonus?  Do that.  Kill an infinite number of creatures.  With one action, that way you don't level up, making anyone with a CR of at least 6 lower still give xp.  The problem I see is when he can do this.  If he can't until NI HD, then it can still maybe happen, just only killing things with NI HD.

I'm kinda on the fence on this one though, it doesn't seem like it should be possible, and I have a feeling I'm just missing something insanely obvious and it can't actually work.
Doesn't work. Pun-Pun does not have infinite reach.

Offline dman11235

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Hmm, dang.  Does Pun-Pun have anything that can lead to an infinite area being covered?
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Offline sirpercival

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Infinite CL?

EDIT: Since this is YBIYBI, can we assume the Pun-Pun-friendly interpretation of Reserves of Strength?  If so, Pun-Pun can stack extended Suffer the Fleshes with his Infinite Con.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 03:39:30 PM by sirpercival »
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Offline Halinn

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Infinite CL?
Only nigh infinite, so it won't kill a truly infinite amount of enemies.

An additional problem with killing infinite creatures is that you're too high ECL for them to grant any experience points. If you instead treat everything as a single encounter, modifying the CR accordingly, you will be too low ECL to gain any experience, or you will only gain one non-infinite sum.

Offline dman11235

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That's why you don't level up until after the action that gets you infinite xp.  And if you do not have a true infinite HD, there WILL be an infinite number of creatures with an NI CR on an infinite plane.  So as long as you don't level up to infinity before you get infinite xp, you're fine on that front.

EDIT: basically, what this means is that in order for Pun-Pun to have infinite xp (and thus infinite levels in every class, with infinite HD), all he needs to do is have a truly infinite reach, and his infinite stats.  Anything that does truly infinite damage with an infinite area (or targets an infinite number of creatures) will net him infinite xp.

Alternatively, anything that provides xp, as long as he can do a true infinite number of those actions (so in any finite amount of time, accomplishes a true infinite number of the actions) will net him infinite xp.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 03:40:45 PM by dman11235 »
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Offline Bastian

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That's why you don't level up until after the action that gets you infinite xp.  And if you do not have a true infinite HD, there WILL be an infinite number of creatures with an NI CR on an infinite plane.  So as long as you don't level up to infinity before you get infinite xp, you're fine on that front.

EDIT: basically, what this means is that in order for Pun-Pun to have infinite xp (and thus infinite levels in every class, with infinite HD), all he needs to do is have a truly infinite reach, and his infinite stats.  Anything that does truly infinite damage with an infinite area (or targets an infinite number of creatures) will net him infinite xp.

Alternatively, anything that provides xp, as long as he can do a true infinite number of those actions (so in any finite amount of time, accomplishes a true infinite number of the actions) will net him infinite xp.
You can't take an infinite number of actions (see the discussion earlier in the thread for why that is so).

Offline Halinn

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there WILL be an infinite number of creatures with an NI CR on an infinite plane.
That is not so. Infinities can contain merely an infinite amount of some subset, such as an infinite amount of creatures with CR equal to or less than 1000.
Assuming an infinite universe, it does not have to contain an infinite amount of planets whose entire biomass is consisted of platypodes, to use a more familial example.

Offline dman11235

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@Bastian: that's where things like Whirlwind Attack come into play.  If you have truly infinite reach, you can attack an infinite number of creatures with a single action (you attack every creature within reach).

@Halinn: If you assume an infinite universe with infinite energy (otherwise it's not a true infinite universe), then the probability of anything occurring approaches 1.  You'd be right in that the probability is not 1, but it approaches 1.  So yes, there would be an infinite number of those planets, spaced infinitely far apart, and infinitely close together.  It gets weird.  The basic rule is that if there is an object that does not violate the universe's laws, then the probability that the object exists approaches 1 in a truly infinite universe.

As far as other planets exist, there's an infinite amount of energy in the universe.  It has to be located somewhere.  And taking the above rule into account, it is nearly impossible for there to exist a finite number of landmasses of finite size.  The only way for that to happen is for the entire rest of the infinite universe to be taken up by energy.
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