Author Topic: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]  (Read 32836 times)

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3869
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #100 on: May 07, 2013, 01:04:23 PM »
Added a feat:

Pinpoint Aim (courtesy of Garryl)
Prerequisites: Precise Shot
Benefit: When making a ranged attack, you may ignore your size modifier to attack rolls (if negative) and your target's size modifier to AC (if positive).

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3869
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #101 on: July 26, 2013, 11:18:55 PM »
Fixed a couple formatting issues that had been bugging me.

Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.
Quote
Weak Spot:
Prerequisites: Sharp Focus
Benefit: A number of times per encounter equal to the Sniper’s Class Level or Wisdom Modifier, whichever is smaller, a Sniper may make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal ranged attack.  A use of this ability must be declared before the roll is made, and the use is expended regardless of the result.
Special: This trick cannot be used in conjunction with spells/maneuvers/powers/similar which require ranged attack rolls. This trick can only be taken once.



Question: compared to Light Step, is Demoralizing Shot basically an auto-take? If so, should I change anything? Options are:
  • Do nothing, it's fine.
  • Scale back Demoralizing Shot in some way.
  • Scale up Light Step in some way.
  • Swap the two so that Demoralizing Shot is standard, and turn Light Step into an ACF.
  • Something else?

Offline EjoThims

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 531
  • The Ferret
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #102 on: July 28, 2013, 12:38:13 PM »
Fixed a couple formatting issues that had been bugging me.

Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.

I don't personally think those were issues at all. Requires 4 levels of a non casting class hurt, as does wisdom bonus limit if you're not a wisdom caster.

Really, the only people I can see benefiting from it, at all, as a dip are Master Throwers and Stormguard Warriors, And even then they are likely taking the levels for other class features and probably picking up different tricks, the MT, for example, only gains Str to damage by using that trick instead of one his own.


Question: compared to Light Step, is Demoralizing Shot basically an auto-take?

No, they are desired by different niches.

But Light Step still does not scale nearly as well. So you give a mobility option that will feel good for those who want to prioritize mobility, but they will still know that the debuff based snipers are doing their focus better.

I'd suggest having later stages of Light Step scale earlier application the same way Demoralizing Shot does and have it offer other sides benefits, just like Demo Shot.

For example, at level2 Light, you aren't hindered by terrain, but level 2 Demo you debuff AND have a save bonus. So switch Light to unhindered AND either a hide/ms bonus (thematic to the class, so while those bonuses are elsewhere, a light step sniper will be better at them than a demo sniper) or a thing like being able to take 10 on climb and swim and such (focusing on other aspects of mobility).

At level 3 light, you give spider climb /day (/days suck anyway, remember) but you give Demo a boost to it's continuous debuff, making it an AoE. I'd suggest simply moving Spider Climb to /encounter, even just a small 1 (or 2, so you can get back down if the duration has expired) so they can always use their mobility at least once a fight.

Same issue at level 7. You up the Demo's debuff AND give the sniper his own boost. This might be a good level for the climb/swim boost for Light Step (pairing it with the water walking, preferably at a low /enc ;) ). Maybe a swim/climb speed 1/2 their base. Makes both spell likes still useful tactically, but also gives their mobility boosts in noncombat situations.

Demo then gets a HUGE buff at level 14. Lower effect on save and even enemies that are normally immune suffer your lower level. This turns the ability into "everyone you ever hit is shaken." I would suggest giving Light Step a similar always on lower ability. Perhaps Spider Climb, improving a third time on the initial climbing aspect. And make Air Walk /enc too, especially since you're now granting a 4th level spell at level 14.

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3869
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #103 on: July 28, 2013, 01:26:38 PM »
Fixed a couple formatting issues that had been bugging me.

Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.

I don't personally think those were issues at all. Requires 4 levels of a non casting class hurt, as does wisdom bonus limit if you're not a wisdom caster.

Really, the only people I can see benefiting from it, at all, as a dip are Master Throwers and Stormguard Warriors, And even then they are likely taking the levels for other class features and probably picking up different tricks, the MT, for example, only gains Str to damage by using that trick instead of one his own.

I guess the most potential for abuse would be gestalt, but then this would probably be way down there on the list of worries. I think on further reflection, I'm going to take it back out, because the spirit of the class is that all of your ranged attacks are awesome, regardless of the source.

Quote
Question: compared to Light Step, is Demoralizing Shot basically an auto-take?

No, they are desired by different niches.

But Light Step still does not scale nearly as well. So you give a mobility option that will feel good for those who want to prioritize mobility, but they will still know that the debuff based snipers are doing their focus better.

I'd suggest {things}

Good stuff. Okay, here's the original Light Step:
Quote
Light Step (Su): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties.  At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb (as per the 2nd level Spell) a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus, with a caster level equal to her class level.  At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk (as per the 3rd level Spell) a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus, with a caster level equal to her class level.  At 14th level, a Sniper can use Air Walk (as per the 4th level Spell) a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus, with a caster level equal to her class level.

And a potential scaled up version:
Quote
Light Step (Su): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties. In addition, she may move at her full speed with no penalty to Hide or Move Silently, and only takes a -10 penalty while running or charging.  At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb once per encounter per two Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level.  At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk once per encounter per three Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, she gains Climb and Swim speeds equal to half her base speed.  At 14th level, a Sniper can use Air Walk once per encounter per four Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, her Climb and Swim speeds increase to the same as her base speed, and she takes no penalty to Hide and Move Silently while running or charging.

Offline EjoThims

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 531
  • The Ferret
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #104 on: July 28, 2013, 04:27:10 PM »
Light Step (Su): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties. In addition, she may move at her full speed with no penalty to Hide or Move Silently, and only takes a -10 penalty while running or charging.  At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb once per encounter per two Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level.  At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk once per encounter per three Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, she gains Climb and Swim speeds equal to half her base speed.  At 14th level, a Sniper can use Air Walk once per encounter per four Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, her Climb and Swim speeds increase to the same as her base speed, and she takes no penalty to Hide and Move Silently while running or charging.

That progression feels really good, yea. But I don't think you need to scale the encounter uses up by level. Each of these spells has a 10 minute per level duration (30 minutes when you first get Spider Climb). That many uses per encounter turns it into an at will ability. Just set them at once per encounter (or twice if you want them to be able to recast in case of dispel). This will make them have to plan individual uses around AMFs and such, but still allow them to have access to them in each fight even if having a marathon series of encounters.

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3869
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #105 on: July 28, 2013, 07:20:42 PM »
I was thinking more about the possibility of having the extra uses for other party members.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10517
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #106 on: July 28, 2013, 09:41:16 PM »
Fixed a couple formatting issues that had been bugging me.

Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.
Quote
Weak Spot:
Prerequisites: Sharp Focus
Benefit: A number of times per encounter equal to the Sniper’s Class Level or Wisdom Modifier, whichever is smaller, a Sniper may make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal ranged attack.  A use of this ability must be declared before the roll is made, and the use is expended regardless of the result.
Special: This trick cannot be used in conjunction with spells/maneuvers/powers/similar which require ranged attack rolls. This trick can only be taken once.



Question: compared to Light Step, is Demoralizing Shot basically an auto-take? If so, should I change anything? Options are:
  • Do nothing, it's fine.
  • Scale back Demoralizing Shot in some way.
  • Scale up Light Step in some way.
  • Swap the two so that Demoralizing Shot is standard, and turn Light Step into an ACF.
  • Something else?
Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn? :P

For him, Light Step was a no brainer because he'll be flying 24/7. For some, it might not be.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3869
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #107 on: July 28, 2013, 11:02:02 PM »
Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn? :P

For him, Light Step was a no brainer because he'll be flying 24/7. For some, it might not be.

:lol Actually, the part about Weak Spot I saw when looking at arias's character on Team MONSTER - not that he's taking advantage of it, just that it occurred to me then. Although, now that you mention it, I might need to put that sentence into Called Shot too.  :P

I didn't want to scale back Demoralizing Shot.  I guess I've been feeling like Light Step was underpowered for a little while. Hopefully this is a little better.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10517
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #108 on: July 28, 2013, 11:07:09 PM »
Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn? :P

For him, Light Step was a no brainer because he'll be flying 24/7. For some, it might not be.

:lol Actually, the part about Weak Spot I saw when looking at arias's character on Team MONSTER - not that he's taking advantage of it, just that it occurred to me then. Although, now that you mention it, I might need to put that sentence into Called Shot too.  :P
Gah!  :banghead Although I mostly plan on using my Mindblades, which are technically none of the listed things...
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3869
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #109 on: July 28, 2013, 11:36:08 PM »
Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn? :P

For him, Light Step was a no brainer because he'll be flying 24/7. For some, it might not be.

:lol Actually, the part about Weak Spot I saw when looking at arias's character on Team MONSTER - not that he's taking advantage of it, just that it occurred to me then. Although, now that you mention it, I might need to put that sentence into Called Shot too.  :P
Gah!  :banghead Although I mostly plan on using my Mindblades, which are technically none of the listed things...
:hug  Don't worry.
Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.
I don't personally think those were issues at all. Requires 4 levels of a non casting class hurt, as does wisdom bonus limit if you're not a wisdom caster.

Really, the only people I can see benefiting from it, at all, as a dip are Master Throwers and Stormguard Warriors, And even then they are likely taking the levels for other class features and probably picking up different tricks, the MT, for example, only gains Str to damage by using that trick instead of one his own.
I guess the most potential for abuse would be gestalt, but then this would probably be way down there on the list of worries. I think on further reflection, I'm going to take it back out, because the spirit of the class is that all of your ranged attacks are awesome, regardless of the source.

Phae, what do you think of the new & improved Light Step progression?

Offline EjoThims

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 531
  • The Ferret
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #110 on: July 29, 2013, 02:30:49 PM »
I was thinking more about the possibility of having the extra uses for other party members.

Ah, sorry. I had just assumed they were castable only on the Sniper himself. Being able to cast them on others makes that progression work much better, definitely.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10517
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #111 on: July 29, 2013, 08:25:42 PM »
Phae, what do you think of the new & improved Light Step progression?
Since I wasn't using it before, I'm not sure what changed. :P It looks pretty useful, but not as much as the multiple uses per encounter you had in an earlier quote I saw, particularly because you could spam those on other party members. I mean hell... Air Walk at 14th level isn't a big deal even if it is at will. At that point, you can afford an item to fly, burn through UMD scrolls/wands, etc.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3869
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #112 on: July 29, 2013, 09:23:05 PM »
I was thinking more about the possibility of having the extra uses for other party members.

Ah, sorry. I had just assumed they were castable only on the Sniper himself. Being able to cast them on others makes that progression work much better, definitely.

Originally I was thinking that they would only be usable on the Sniper, but I like it better this way. I'll note that they're usable on others.

It looks pretty useful, but not as much as the multiple uses per encounter you had in an earlier quote I saw, particularly because you could spam those on other party members. I mean hell... Air Walk at 14th level isn't a big deal even if it is at will. At that point, you can afford an item to fly, burn through UMD scrolls/wands, etc.

How about Fly instead of Air Walk, but with a duration of 10min/lvl?

So the full ability would look like this:
Quote
Light Step (Ex/SpL): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties. In addition, she may move at her full speed with no penalty to Hide or Move Silently, and only takes a -10 penalty while running or charging.  At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb once per encounter per two Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level.  At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk once per encounter per three Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, she gains Climb and Swim speeds equal to half her base speed.  At 14th level, a Sniper can use Fly once per encounter per four Sniper levels, except with a duration of 10 minutes per level, and with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, her Climb and Swim speeds increase to be the same as her base speed, and she takes no penalty to Hide and Move Silently while running or charging. Uses of Spider Climb, Water Walk, and Fly may target willing allies in addition to the Sniper, and are spell-like abilities. All other benefits of Light Step are extraordinary.


EDIT: I put the updated version of Light Step (directly above) into the OP.

EDIT: Added something to Precise Shot about hitting the intended target, and not having to roll randomly.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 03:03:57 PM by FireInTheSky »

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3869
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #113 on: May 10, 2014, 03:14:18 PM »
After hearing concerns from a few different people, I've made two changes:
  1. Aim damage is now 1dx/2 levels (rounded up) instead of 1dx/level
  2. Light Step SLAs are now /day instead of /encounter, with slightly more uses. 10min/level durations and /encounter abilities don't exactly mesh well.


EDIT: Modified the Double Jeopardy Trick Shot to increase the minimum area threatened to 1 range increment, or 30', whichever is smaller (in addition to threatening the squares of creatures hit in the previous round).

EDIT: Added a couple weapon proficiencies.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 04:35:43 PM by FireInTheSky »

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9270
  • Somewhat Angry, Most of the Time
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2015, 08:55:09 AM »
Is Aim damage multiplied by criticals? Unlike SA, it doesn't specify that it isn't, but it seems almost for it to get multiplied. But if it isn't, then all the crit-improving trick shots seem... redundant.
I hate picking signatures.

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3869
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #115 on: July 26, 2015, 01:30:38 PM »
Ummm... I think I originally intended that it would be multiplied. But I don't remember for sure. Eldritch blast damage is multiplied, right? Since this class has such a narrow focus, it should probably be multiplied. Or do you think it would be too much at that point?

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9270
  • Somewhat Angry, Most of the Time
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #116 on: July 26, 2015, 01:44:25 PM »
Well, if it isn't, the crit stuff becomes a bit... weird. Yay, I can more regularly crit with my longbow? If it's only the base damage (and or any strength on a composite longbow) then it becomes a pointless thing over time, as the aim damage is more significant than the x3/x4 base damage. @_@
I hate picking signatures.

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3869
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #117 on: July 26, 2015, 02:43:29 PM »
Is there any particular (good) reason that SA doesn't multiply?

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9270
  • Somewhat Angry, Most of the Time
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #118 on: July 27, 2015, 07:09:19 PM »
I have no idea. Maybe someone else should chip in?
I hate picking signatures.

Offline EjoThims

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 531
  • The Ferret
    • View Profile
Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
« Reply #119 on: September 15, 2015, 04:53:06 AM »
No real "good" reason precision damage doesn't multiply. The though of x4 crits from a TWF Rogue just seemed like a lot of dice to them when they made the decision.

And a lot of TO and high powered CO builds would throw out some CRAZY numbers messing high crit and high SA/skirmish builds.

But in a practical game its main effect would be for Fighters to feel even less useful.

Thematically I'm sure its justified as the precision damage already comes from specifically striking vulnerable spots or in a certain way and crits being essentially the same thing.

No reason your shot can't hit them through the eye instead of just in the head though.

So, again, by precedent, Aim damage should not be multiplied and will need a specific call out if it is (where you already say it doesn't count as precision for damage for immunities would be perfect, just say it is not precision damage, so bypasses immunities and is multiplied on a crit), but there's really no reason other than that precedent to limit it in this way.

Keep in mind though, a specific call out to multiply Aim damage on crits will be taken as many as OP, just because of that precedent.

A fitting compromise may be a Trick Shot, though some would expect it to be nerfed even then, perhaps to -1 crit multiplier (making it useless if you only have x2).

Me personally, I say go for it outright, especially after nerfing the damage anyway.