Author Topic: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!  (Read 22254 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« on: February 18, 2012, 05:50:41 PM »
Crystalized Silver

"The snow crystals are larger than in past years.
Three times larger. This winter is indeed long.
You poor thing, done in by the cold.
Are you a lost soul as well?
Would you like a long, deep, carefree sleep?"-Letty Whiterock, Crystalized Silver master



Winter is usually considered the season of death and stillness, where most things die and the others hide and sleep trying to endure trough it.
But in some places Winter is eternal, and one must adapt to it or surely perish. Tribes in the tall mountains wear tick clothes, wizards in their high towers conjure powerful warding spells and warriors seek to keep themselves warm by constant combat.
Others simply fully embrace the cold. Ice, snow and frost become tools at their disposal. Sages have recorded countless beings completely deeply attuned to the cold. So it was only natural that someone developed a martial school to draw upon the power of Winter.

Nobody's very sure who was the first user of Crystalized Silver, but most evidence point to a small fey community where some of its members started practising and developing their natural abilities to channel the cold side of nature in order to better face their rivals and the local adventurers.

Crystallized Silver focuses in one's inner strenght to draw forth the power of cold. Its users can create snow, ice and frost out of thin air in a myriad of forms to freeze their enemies.

Crystalized Silver also sees little use in fancy moving around and thus focuses in ranged combat, slowing and entangling its targets until they themselves can't move at all. Why struggle against it? Even the stars themselves eventually grows cold.

Nowadays the users of this discipline can be found anywhere where there's seasonal strong winters and cold weather, altough they usually keep low during the warmer seasons.

Key Skill: Intimidate. A good portion of Crystalized Silver's teachings are subduing your oponent's will to fight, to move, and finally to live if you so desire.
Discipline Weapons:Heavy Mace, Spear, Flail, Heavy Pick, Short Bow, Longsword, Greatsword, Bastard Blade.

A swordsage may replace Desert Wind by Crystallized Silver.

New Feats
(click to show/hide)


Maneuvers List

1st level

Lingering Cold: Strike– inflict cold damage on an oponent, that keeps repeating itself.
Freeze Touch: Counter-oponent hiting you in melee takes cold damage.
Flower Wither Away:Strike-attack area with frozen petals.
Cold Sign: Boost–add cold damage to your spells and Su abilities.
Ice Body:Stance–increase natural armor and freeze those that dare to touch you.

2nd level
Undulation Ray: Strike–ray inflicts cold damage and Dex penalty.
Icicle Shot: Strike–shoot spike of ice that may temporaly imobilize oponent.
Midsummer Snow: Counter–gain temporary resistance to an element of your choice.
Icicle Weapon: Boost–create temporary weapon of ice.

3rd level
Mystic Cold Wind: Strike–slow down and damage oponents in cone.
Frozen Technique:Stance-boost all cold-based attacks.
Frost Pillars:Strike-rise columns of ice from the ground.
Ice Sign:Boost-ignore cold resistance from your oponents.

4th level
Cold Snap:Strike–Damage and entangle nearby oponents.
Little Iceberg: Boost–take cover inside an ice structure.
Freezing Light: Strike–fire three rays inflicting cold damage and minor Dex penalty.
Freeze Sign:Boost-your next attack inflicting cold damage Slows its targets.

5th level
Northern Winter: Strike-Lowering temperatures lead to a deadly slumberness.
Ice Barrier: Counter-protect yourself with cold.
Snow Sign:Boost-surround yourself with snow, gaining concealment and making it harder for others to aproach you.
Icicle Rise:Strike-frozen projectiles rise from the ground to impale your oponents.

6th level
Icicle Bomb:Counter-turn your oponent's attack in an explosion of ice.
Winter Sign:Boost–increase the DC of all your cold-related abilities.
Weapon Freezer: Stance–grant powerful cold enanchments to holded weapon.
Cold Sprinkler:Strike-rain of ice projectiles shreds your oponents.

7th level
Frost Sign-Boost-cover nearby oponents in a thin layer of ice, slowing them down.
Instant Freeze Beam: Strike–ray inflicts cold damage and encases oponent in a block of ice.
Blowing Wind-Ice Tornado:Strike-powerful cold storm freezes the battlefield.
Freezing Atmosphere: Stance- freeze those that get too close to you.

8th level

White Sign:Boost-ignore all immunities and resistances from the next oponent you attack.
Lunatic Hailstorm: Stance–your mind becomes as cold and sharp as ice.
Hard Diamond Blizzard:Strike-A raw display of icy fury.
Negative Kelvin: Strike- Ice clump which hold an unprecedented chill within them explodes in contact with air.


9th level
Cold Divinity:Stance–Force your oponents to fight in your own Icy domain.
Perfect Freeze:Strike-Shoots out snowballs on all sides. They freeze in mid air, and then begin moving again after a time delay.


Maneuvers explanations:
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 01:00:15 AM by oslecamo »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 05:50:56 PM »
Reserved just in case.

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 06:10:19 PM »
Needs moar ice carz!
Concerned about how moderation works here? Please PM this account.

Offline Prime32

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 06:17:33 PM »
Suggested stance: Freeze Atmosphere
Every round a creature remains within 10ft of you, they take cold damage and a cumulative penalty to speed + Str. A creature reduced to 0 Str is turned to ice, as flesh to stone. Creatures of 4HD or lower are just petrified instantly. Projectile attacks targeting you may also be frozen, granting you protection as an entropic shield effect. Finally, you freeze the ground beneath your feet and can walk on ice without Balance checks (maybe that last part could be in the tactical feat).
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 06:24:50 PM by Prime32 »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 07:27:46 PM »
New 7th level stance based on Prime32's sugestion. What do you think about the Speed/Str penalty amount, good as it is now? Your typical 6 Str wizard would go down in two rounds, but any wizard who stays close to you for 2 rounds kinda deserves it. Everybody else should be able to easily endure 2-3 rounds.

Also buffed the tactical feat with the "freezing ground", great idea there!

Freeze Atmosphere
Crystallized Silver (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 7
Initiation Action: Swift action
Range: -
Target: you.
Duration: stance

The temperature around you drops drastically, leading to the formation of frozen particles in midair that stick to those that get too close, freezing them as well.

Every creature that ends its turn whitin 10 feet of you takes cold damage equal to half the ranks you have in Intimidate and a cumulative -10 feet penalty to speed and -4 penalty to Str. Creatures reduced to 0 Str from this are turned to ice, as Flesh to Stone. Creatures of 4 HD or lower are simply petrified instantly. A kiss from the Frostwind Virago can turn them back to normal.
 Projectile attacks targeting you may also be frozen, granting you protection as an Entropic Shield effect.

Even if a creature escapes before being turned into ice, the penalties last for 1 minute, and if the Frostwind Virago gets close enough again before it wears off, the duration restarts.

Needs moar ice carz!

What? :???

EDIT: And now with Frostwind Virago suport!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 07:46:19 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Prime32

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 06:04:56 AM »
Quote
Also buffed the tactical feat with the "freezing ground", great idea there!
That's not a tactical feat. :??? Each school has a basic feat (which may count as another feat), plus a tactical feat - eg. Desert Wind has Desert Wind Dodge and Scorching Sirocco.

Quote
Needs moar ice carz!

What? :???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BniFzFMwvkw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COL3ad7ZhAc
IIRC "a cheap attack that only noobs use"
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 06:06:56 AM by Prime32 »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 12:10:50 PM »
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 02:06:03 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 04:26:45 PM »
Quote
Also buffed the tactical feat with the "freezing ground", great idea there!
That's not a tactical feat. :??? Each school has a basic feat (which may count as another feat), plus a tactical feat - eg. Desert Wind has Desert Wind Dodge and Scorching Sirocco.
Noted. Removed the ice creating from Coldly Serious, but otherwise I'm kinda at a loss on how to do a tactical feat for this (besides the freezing ground idea), so sugestions on that regard would be welcome.

Quote
Needs moar ice carz!

What? :???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BniFzFMwvkw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COL3ad7ZhAc
IIRC "a cheap attack that only noobs use"

Hmm, why not combine them? How about this:
(click to show/hide)

Anomander:

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 04:42:12 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2012, 10:42:09 PM »
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 11:47:23 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 10:27:08 AM »
Cold Divinity completely revamped since in retrospective I didn't feel like it really had that "Final Stance" feel I want from 9th level stances.

Lingering Cold
I know MM's distance is good but the actual real reason people use it is for guaranteed damage. When you want to hurt without a chance of wasting your action, you cast a MM. Power Word Pain is a broken thing and the idea is not to compare homebrews to the worst core has to offer. My point is that this maneuver is dealing more automatic damage than spells at a level that where such things are very limited, for a reason considering the low hp of everyone.
The range is limited, yes, but then again the martial combatant isn't a spellcaster. Try a few mock fights between level 1 Crystalized Silver users and other classes, you'll see what I mean.
Very well, after running some more scenarios, it seems somewhat too strong at early levels.

Flower Wither Away
Color Spray's area doesn't improve and is mindaffecting, which doesn't work on everything, and also becomes worthless after a few levels. Cleave requires to spend a feat and likely the one daily use of rage while this maneuver requires no other investment. Since its a maneuver it can also be used all day compared to a wizard with color sprays that won't be able to spam it every encounter. I'm mostly comparing it to the other maneuvers' power curve and other actual damage dealing spells, and they do not offer this much. The damage is already formidable for its level, so why add a slow on top?
To keep it original from all my other ToBhou schools so far? Also still a fullround action. Color spray (which fully disables the enemy if they fail the will save, ignores cold immunity/resistance, plus casters learn a lot more spells than initiators learn maneuvers) and cleaving barbarians (who usually pick Extra Rage anyway) don't steal your own mobility.

Cold Sign
I read right. Any cold damage sources, attacks/spells/other is compatible with this maneuver where Burning Blade is only for attacks. There are many ways to make Intimidate a class skill and you do not need to be a wizard to make UMD uses to cast scrolls/wands/etc. Spelldamage can be converted to cold with the right meta feat if a caster focuses on cold damage. But I digress.  What I'm saying is that this effect is a mini-nuke on top of something that already packs a punch. The damage potential is better than it would be if it made a cold damage spell Empowered without improving spell level. It does that to every cold damage you do in one turn.
If the damage is not better scaled, having it apply only to the next cold damage source used until the next round would more balanced than it currently is.
Ok, let's compare:

Kobold Unarmed Swordsage 5 with Shadow Blade and Snap Kick with Dex 20 uses Flashing Sun+Burning Blade for six attacks (three natural and three unarmed), for around 3d3+3d6+30 damage plus 6d6+30 fire damage (average over 90 damage)

Crystalized Silver Swordsage 5 with Cha 20 attacks with Mystic Cold Wind+Cold Sign for 1d20+3d6+13 cold damage (average 23 damage).

And this is from a 2nd level Desert Wind maneuver against a 3rd level Crystalized Silver maneuver!

The key diference here it's that is extremely easy to throw lots of melee attacks in a single round to multiply Burning Blade damage. It's much harder to throw multiple cold damage dealing effects in a single round, in particular when you're already eating your cold action.

Icicle Shot
Technically, divisions are multiplications.
Dividing by two is multiplying by 0.5
The question stands.
The answer has been standing there all along, with the example that halving becomes quartering.

Mystic Cold Wind
In theory, perhaps. Getting extra move actions is pretty easy if positioning is such a concern.
Monster Hp isn't growing up that much and I don't think it is such a good idea to give great damage dealers means to do even more. Most damage spells/effects scale on caster levels (not as easy to boost), and most have a cap. Most caster players will tell you they don't have trouble with dealing damage and most noncasters will whine about not dealing half as much.
Wait, what? You're serious? I don't know where you've been hanging around here, but go around this forums and you'll see that, if nothing else, noncasters are the kings of raw damage, while it's blaster casters that struggle to keep up after around 10th level when monster HP explodes but spell damage keeps being 1d6 per CL.

Just above I showed you how a 5th level Swordsage can easily dish around almost 100 damage whitout crits. Uber chargers are also a very well known D&D build. Again, the key factor is that noncasters can easily dish out multiple attacks per round, thus multiplying whatever bonus they can get their hands on like power attack shenigans, Burning Blade, pimped unarmed strikes and whatnot.

And as far as I know, there's zero suport for boosting maneuvers that only deal damage. There's no maximize/empower maneuver or anything like that.

Boosters to improve skill checks abounds at all levels. It gets even more worrying by the time all that damage is tripled, then quadrupled. The goal is not to have a maneuver you can use all day that can still one-shot monsters when their HP starts to get higher.
Perhaps the best course would be to follow a pattern you've been using for a while and connect damage to skill ranks rather than a skill check. It is much safer balance-wise.
We'll talk about this later in Perfect Freeze.

Ice Barrier
You know.  :eh
Oddly enough I cannot remember the last time a party of mine ever used a torch. They would be quite a waste of an action to use against the barrier.
Oh, also. The wording suggests that ray/line/fire attacks simply bypasses the barrier rather than bypassing and destroying it.
IE: It seems to me that if someone attacked with a fire sword in his right hand, then a normal sword with his left, the fire sword would deal damage while the following normal one would be blocked.
Eerr, the Ice Barrier only blocks one attack. It even says it's instantaneous in duration.

Also yay, an use for fighting with torches!

Icicle Rise
Let's see...
Quote
This maneuver works as Icicle Shot, except it's only a standard action to initiate, you  fire one Icicle per 4 ranks you have in Intimidate, have an higher DC, they must come from a point lower than your position, and they can only travel directly upwards, but can go up as far as you want whitout penalties.

Creatures in the air hit by Icicle Rise and failing their saves automatically fall to the ground, taking apropriate falling damage.
Compared to:
Quote
You fire one Icicle per 4 ranks you have in Intimidate that must come from a point lower than your position, and may only travel directly upwards up to any distance. Each icicle requires a separate ranged attack to hit and deals 1d6 piercing damage and 1d6 cold damage. Creatures struck by them must succeed on a Reflex save or have their movement speed reduced by half for 1 round and automatically fall to the ground, taking apropriate falling damage. Multiple Icicle shots on a single target stack on the speed reduction.
Doesn't look so bad. I strikes me now that they make ranged attacks... but with which modifiers? BAB+Dex or Bab+Wis?
Hmm, that does look nicer. Shameslesly copy-pasted! Also ranged attacks are always Bab+Dex by default. Where did you get Bab+Wis?

Weapon Freezer
I think you may be overestimating the power of a level 6 stance. It is already stronger than the others before multiplying any damage.
The concern was mostly about the big leap in damage
Frost (1d6, av 3.5), then Icy frost (1d6+1d10 on crit, av 3.5+5.5 crit), then multiplied (starting at av 10.5+16.5 crit).
It is already Fiery Assault on steroids that also works on ranged weapons, why make the cold damage even higher?
Couldn't it just do the same and add 1d6 cold damage no matter what the enchantments on the weapon are?
Well, assassin's stance adds 2d6 damage and is just 3rd level. I also wanted it to be shiny, but the multiplier may've been too great so reduced to 1/5 ranks in Intimidate.

Blowing Wind-Ice Tornado
Being able to shape the eye of the storm is weird. A simple radius up to the maximum range of the effect centered on and following you would make more sense and be much simpler.
May make a little more sense, but far from simpler. Having to recheck what the safe area is every round is extra work.

Lunatic Hailstorm
Wizards rarely spend all their 8th level spells to buff the whole party with it. Unlike it, this one can be turned off to accept beneficial mind-affecting buffs, then turned back on on a whim. It can otherwise instead be compared to the psionic power Mindblank, Personal, with the same reasoning.
The first trick doesn't really work since mindblank does remove any mind-affecting effects you were already under effect. We know this because of the BoED Empyreal Ectasy that also grants immunity to Mind-Affecting but specifically states it does not remove such effects that were already in place.

Personal Mindblank is lower level.

Cold Divinity
Nobody except every classes' Stances Known class ability.  :)
Actually I felt like it didn't have enough Oomph as a "final stance", so I completely revamped it.

Perfect Freeze
Time Stands still-double fullattack is good, for sure if you can actually manage decent damage with your basic attacks. The damage output is great if you hit and use your attacks on the same opponent. This maneuver is not concerned about having to hit, and slaughters everyone at once.

War Master's Charge is good, but its not just you. Everybody has to spend an immediate action to help (they might have better ways to spend them) and, unlike this maneuver, you cannot pull insane damage on your own. All this people has to be within 30ft of you to participate as well and, also different from this maneuver, slaughters a single target. Not to say that, yeah, they still have a small chance to miss depending on the target.

This maneuver dishes insane damage even on a failed save (quadruple intimidate check). It is stronger than level 9 spells as far as damage goes and maneuvers are meant to be much weaker.
Note: 9th level damage-dealing spells suck. Meteor Swarm is a joke in 3rd edition. Always acept substitutes.

Even on a failed save and if all the checks rolled 1s, the minimal damage would be about 120. And that is without a single item/spell/boost to increase your intimidation check. With some buffs the minimal damage could be raised to 212 without even trying. Well over 300 if I tried. And that is minimal damage to everyone within at least 255ft, which is probably everyone.
Better is, you can spam it every encounter and at least every two rounds.
[/spoiler]
Ok, first it now deals friendly damage and is a fullround action, so first you need to position yourself whitout risking killing your party (which are basically assured to have less HP than the monsters) while actualy being in range of the enemy.

Now let's check the HP of some monsters around level 17:

Marilith has 216 HP with Cold resistance 10 with reflex +14 (+18 from at-will Unholy aura)
Frost Giant Jarl has 231 HP plus immune to cold nyah! Reflex save +13, probably boosted by Blackguard spells.
Old brass Dragon 287 HP, reflex +14, probably has sorceror buffs as well.

They all stand a good chance of making the first reflex save so even a boosted Intimidate check won't 1-shot them. They're also all fairly intellegent so will also know to get out of the way before the 2nd part of the maneuver (dragons are wicked fast flying, Marilith can teleport and Frot Giant Jarl gets a mount from blackguard). Perfect Freeze will give them a run for their money, but far from auto-win if you ask me unless you caught them unprepared and they're unlucky with the rolls.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 07:00:31 AM »
Cold Sign
The comparison is flawed in that you optimized the Desert Wind user but not the Crystalized Silver user and in that you're comparing a combo that involves a chance of missing more than half the attacks against a single target with a maneuver that always deals damage to several targets, multiplying the total damage dealt by the number of creatures affected.

If the idea is to compare Burning Blade with Cold Sign, alright.

Burning Blade gives 1d6+IL fire damage per attack.
Cold sign does 1d6 x (1+ character level/2). Let's say its dealt with weapons dealing cold damage.
If cold sign was applied to a weapon dealing cold damage, say one with the augment crystal of cold assault...
Burning Blade damage per attack: Lvl 1 (av 4.5), Lvl 2 (av 5.5), Lvl 4 (av 7.5), Lvl 10 (av 13.5), Lvl 20 (av 23.5)
Cold Sign damage per attack: Lvl 1 (av 3.5), Lvl 2 (av 7), Lvl 4 (av 10.5), Lvl 10 (av 21), Lvl 20 (av 38.5)

Meaning: If you optimize two characters so that they have the same number of attacks in a FAA with which they can use these boosts, Cold Sign will always win.
If the comparison is about with which deals the most damage alongside a standard action, Cold Sign will always win.
But I don't really care about that.
The real point was that its a level 1 maneuver that can easily be grabbed by anything dealing cold damage nukes from whatever source to grant a damage boost superior to a free application of an Empower metamagic.
 
Mystic Cold Wind
While I'm pretty certain a good caster will always triumph over a good noncaster, I'll let the arguing of that to others as it is getting out of subject.
The idea was simply that the maneuvers dealing damage based on skill checks like Insightful Strike as a guaranteed AoE damage source were much stronger than other damage dealing maneuvers of the same level, doing exactly what they do to more targets without a hit and possibly inflicting a status effect on top of it.
There technically are effects that can boost maneuvers. These maneuvers, anyway...
They are supernatural effects and there are feats/items/others that boosts SU effects. Feats like Empower Supernatural, for example.

Ice Barrier
Not saying it doesn't. I'm saying that it seems that if you put a barrier on and you are attacked by fire (which bypasses the barrier) the barrier remains and can still block the next attack after the fire one.

Icicle Rise
Quite a few spells/supernatural attacks rolls are based on Caster level/Bab + the main casting ability modifier. Swordsages are normally based on Wisdom, so Bab+Wis seemed possible. Question has been answered either way.

Blowing Wind-Ice Tornado
Oh. It could be a static one like Control Wind then. No problem.

Lunatic Hailstorm
Indeed but it can still accept them if you need them for something, then put the stance back on when you're done. The spell once cast is there to stay.
The personal version is lower level but still higher than the equivalent power of level 8 stances. I just wanted to point that out. Moving on.

Cold Divinity
The name of the stance is fitting but I'm not sure a pre-epic stance should turn characters into gods.
I suspect that in most cases an encounter will be over before 3 natural 20s are rolled, leaving the user to just refresh the stance and keep it ready to use for the next fight. Like the Whirwind maneuver, keeping track of that stuff is extra work and seems a bit clunky. Empowering all cold damage automatically is incredibly powerful as well considering the odds of the stance ending before you're done using it - sufficiently powerful to be the whole stance on its own.
I'd suggest making the stance only available if you are at 50% hp and below (or less if that is too much) and automatically end if you rise above 50% hp.
That way you can become all badass when things get serious and can only remain so while you are so vulnerable. No 9 maneuvers recharge thingy.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 10:08:12 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 07:03:57 AM »
Cold Sign
The comparison is flawed in that you optimized the Desert Wind user but not the Crystalized Silver user and in that you're comparing a combo that involves a chance of missing more than half the attacks against a single target with a maneuver that always deals damage to several targets, multiplying the total damage dealt by the number of creatures affected.
Note: greater damage to a single target is superior to inferior damage to multiple targets 90% of the time. Wounded enemies can still attack you at full power, but an enemy taken down is an enemy you don't need to worry anymore.

If the idea is to compare Burning Blade with Cold Sign, alright.

Burning Blade gives 1d6+IL fire damage per attack.
Cold sign does 1d6 x (1+ character level/2). Let's say its dealt with weapons dealing cold damage.
If cold sign was applied to a weapon dealing cold damage, say one with the augment crystal of cold assault...
Burning Blade damage per attack: Lvl 1 (av 4.5), Lvl 2 (av 5.5), Lvl 4 (av 7.5), Lvl 10 (av 13.5), Lvl 20 (av 23.5)
Cold Sign damage per attack: Lvl 1 (av 3.5), Lvl 2 (av 7), Lvl 4 (av 10.5), Lvl 10 (av 21), Lvl 20 (av 38.5)

Meaning: If you optimize two characters so that they have the same number of attacks in a FAA with which they can use these boosts, Cold Sign will always win.
No, it won't because it's troublesome to get cold damage to all your melee attacks. Using crystals of cold assault means you're not using other, more useful crystals and enchanting natural weapons is a pain.

But I don't really care about that.
The real point was that its a level 1 maneuver that can easily be grabbed by anything dealing cold damage nukes from whatever source to grant a damage boost superior to a free application of an Empower metamagic.
Costing you a swift action, which makes all the diference. Sorcerors can't Wings of Cover, dragons can't use quickened breaths, other mages also cannot use nifty swift-action spells or circlets of quickening, swift actions are extremely valuable in D&D. Plus as you can see from this recent thread, people around here are perfectly fine with 18d6 damage as a swift action at will.

Really, mind showing me a scenario where "anything dealing cold damage nukes" drastically benefits more from this than from another swift action?

Mystic Cold Wind
While I'm pretty certain a good caster will always triumph over a good noncaster, I'll let the arguing of that to others as it is getting out of subject.
The idea was simply that the maneuvers dealing damage based on skill checks like Insightful Strike as a guaranteed AoE damage source were much stronger than other damage dealing maneuvers of the same level, doing exactly what they do to more targets without a hit and possibly inflicting a status effect on top of it.
Yeah, about that, the pure-damage dealing maneuvers are kinda on the weaker side. Most of the time you're better off with those who deal skill-based effects or those that boost attacks.

Ice Barrier
Not saying it doesn't. I'm saying that it seems that if you put a barrier on and you are attacked by fire (which bypasses the barrier) the barrier remains and can still block the next attack after the fire one.
Ah, seems the text is a little misleading. I'll clarify that the barrier disapears after the attack that you atempted to block is finished, regardless of being fire or not. Clarified it.

Cold Divinity
The name of the stance is fitting but I'm not sure a pre-epic stance should turn characters into gods.
I suspect that in most cases an encounter will be over before 3 natural 20s are rolled, leaving the user to just refresh the stance and keep it ready to use for the next fight. Like the Whirwind maneuver, keeping track of that stuff is extra work and seems a bit clunky. Empowering all cold damage automatically is incredibly powerful as well considering the odds of the stance ending before you're done using it - sufficiently powerful to be the whole stance on its own.
I'd suggest making the stance only available if you are at 50% hp and below (or less if that is too much) and automatically end if you rise above 50% hp.
That way you can become all badass when things get serious and can only remain so while you are so vulnerable. No 9 maneuvers recharge thingy.
That's a nice idea, but doesn't really capture the feel I was looking for. I didn't want "You hurt me, now you'll pay!", I wanted "My power is so great that even I have trouble holding to it!". But you're right 3 20s is a bit clunky and the chances of it happening is minimal, so I'll lower it to just 1 natural 20, and no prerequisite to geting it back up. Remember it triggers out of any  natural 20, including iniative, skill checks, saves, etc.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 08:30:56 AM »
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Note: greater damage to a single target is superior to inferior damage to multiple targets 90% of the time. Wounded enemies can still attack you at full power, but an enemy taken down is an enemy you don't need to worry anymore.
Depends on the encounter and your party. PCs usually aren't playing alone.
I understand your point but I was only noting that you were comparing two different things working at their best in different situations.
Saying an ability isn't that great because in that specific scenario it isn't as good as that other thing that specializes in it seems a bit unfair.

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Really, mind showing me a scenario where "anything dealing cold damage nukes" drastically benefits more from this than from another swift action?
I don't consider myself to be such a great optimizer, so I'm sure others can find better uses than this, but it's the first thing I thought about upon reading that question.

Level 12 Caster casts Fire Seeds (Holly Berry Bombs) and changes its damage to cold with Energy Substitution. Perhaps boosting the damage further with a metamagic rod/feats/something.
Should do about 8d8+94 +56d6 cold damage to everyone within a 5-foot radius burst. Average of 346, 173 on a successful save.
Not sure if the swift action would have been better invested in something else than getting an extra ~196 damage.
Its better spent than something like Metamagic Empower/Maximize, Swift - for sure.

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Plus as you can see from this recent thread, people around here are perfectly fine with 18d6 damage as a swift action at will.
For a bunch of feats. Casters can do amazing things with feats that they wouldn't otherwise do by spending them in reserve feats.
In this case, it costs 3k gold.

Cold Divinity
On the next natural 20 is better for sure but having no downtime to it anymore makes the loss of the stance kind of irrelevant.
I know there are a lot of potential d20 rolls (though a lot less seeing how the stance renders the user immune to so much stuff that it won't have to roll saves as often) but the odds still aren't so bad. If by some bad luck you lose the stance, its only a move action to get it back next round like nothing happened.
Maybe giving it some kind of cooldown like a dragon's breath would make it work. Represents the time it takes for the body to build up the cold to pull it off again (or cool down from power overheating).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 08:41:52 AM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2012, 01:05:13 PM »
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Really, mind showing me a scenario where "anything dealing cold damage nukes" drastically benefits more from this than from another swift action?
I don't consider myself to be such a great optimizer, so I'm sure others can find better uses than this, but it's the first thing I thought about upon reading that question.

Level 12 Caster casts Fire Seeds (Holly Berry Bombs) and changes its damage to cold with Energy Substitution. Perhaps boosting the damage further with a metamagic rod/feats/something.
Should do about 8d8+94 +56d6 cold damage to everyone within a 5-foot radius burst. Average of 346, 173 on a successful save.
Not sure if the swift action would have been better invested in something else than getting an extra ~196 damage.
Its better spent than something like Metamagic Empower/Maximize, Swift - for sure.
I'm not very sure that works, because it relies on considering that the fire seeds still count as your attack(s) when they're just reacting to a trigger word.

Of course, holy berry bombs demands very careful preparation, and if you can pull it off, you don't need Cold Sign at all. Just cast it two or more times beforehand, make them have the same command word, and you easily multiply the damage. It's the spell that's too abuseable, not the maneuver.

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Plus as you can see from this recent thread, people around here are perfectly fine with 18d6 damage as a swift action at will.
For a bunch of feats. Casters can do amazing things with feats that they wouldn't otherwise do by spending them in reserve feats.
In this case, it costs 3k gold.
Lesser metamagic rods only can affect spells up to 3rd level, stronger ones cost a lot more.

Plus energy substitution+Intimidate as class skill+Martial Study= a bunch of feats spent as well.

Cold Divinity
On the next natural 20 is better for sure but having no downtime to it anymore makes the loss of the stance kind of irrelevant.
I know there are a lot of potential d20 rolls (though a lot less seeing how the stance renders the user immune to so much stuff that it won't have to roll saves as often) but the odds still aren't so bad. If by some bad luck you lose the stance, its only a move action to get it back next round like nothing happened.
Maybe giving it some kind of cooldown like a dragon's breath would make it work. Represents the time it takes for the body to build up the cold to pull it off again (or cool down from power overheating).
Put a 1 round cooldown.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2012, 09:03:50 PM »
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I'm not very sure that works, because it relies on considering that the fire seeds still count as your attack(s) when they're just reacting to a trigger word.

Of course, holy berry bombs demands very careful preparation, and if you can pull it off, you don't need Cold Sign at all. Just cast it two or more times beforehand, make them have the same command word, and you easily multiply the damage. It's the spell that's too abuseable, not the maneuver.
I'm referring to a scenario when you just cast the Fire Seeds, drop them on the guy next to you then take a 5ft step back (Or fly next to the target with Flyby Attack, cast and retreat) and activate the berries. It would definitely work as an on-the-spot-no-preparation source of damage since all the cold damage would be done within the round of the maneuver's effect. Since you can only prepare a limited number of 6th level spell slots at that time you can't just cast it again and again. You usually want to keep something for the other encounters or for emergencies. Since that caster has no levels in a martial class it wouldn't be able to use the maneuver more than once per encounter (unless its some martial/caster theurge gish). But he would need Cold Sign if he wants the best damage possible for that spell. More than one casting or not. If he 1-shot kills whatever he attacks with it and the encounter is over, well, Cold Sign is back for the next encounter he won't need to cast more than one fire seeds.
There are other spells but that's just an example.

Say, a simple spell like Scorching Ray. Twinned to a 6th level spell prepared slot, perhaps increased further with metamagic reductions to multiply the damage with a Split Ray meta and boosted with a simple metamagic rod for Empowered/Maximized/Chained effect,

Just twinning it deals 6 ranged touch attacks dealing a potential average of 84 damage, risen to a potential 231 with cold sign before other increases.

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Lesser metamagic rods only can affect spells up to 3rd level, stronger ones cost a lot more.

Plus energy substitution+Intimidate as class skill+Martial Study= a bunch of feats spent as well.
Such rods are indeed more expensive but remain an option available to deal better damage.
Getting intimidate as a class skill without feats isn't that hard.  In example, a sorcerer could get the battle-sorcerer class variant to trade bluff for it.
Martial Study isn't worth taking since that maneuver is level 1 and can easily be bought into an 3k gold item.
Energy Substitution as many more uses than just this one combo and can also be acquired as a metamagic rod for casters needing the feats for something else, if its just to add Cold Sign to spells.
Even if it costed 2-3 feats (that support more than just that combo) to do it, its way better than a spam-able 18d6 for three feats (that only support a specific one).

Perfect Freeze
Something that just came to me while reading this:
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They all stand a good chance of making the first reflex save so even a boosted Intimidate check won't 1-shot them. They're also all fairly intellegent so will also know to get out of the way before the 2nd part of the maneuver
Not only must they succeed on the Martial Lore check to know there is a second a part to the maneuver but they are entangled for at least one round on a successful save. This means that even if their movement speed doesn't half sucks getting out of the area will be rather difficult anyway.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 10:01:53 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2012, 06:22:23 AM »
Getting intimidate as a class skill without feats isn't that hard.  In example, a sorcerer could get the battle-sorcerer class variant to trade bluff for it.
Martial Study isn't worth taking since that maneuver is level 1 and can easily be bought into an 3k gold item.
For the record
-Battle sorcerer costs you lots of precious spells know and spell slots for just some Bab and extra HP. It's a massive trap.
-The martial items are kinda broken themselves. Why wouldn't everybody in the party get one replicating White Raven Tactics for example?

But ok, I concede that magic can do a lot of crazy stuff, and doesn't need more nice things. Put a clause in Cold Sign to make it unuseable with spells.

Perfect Freeze
Something that just came to me while reading this:
Quote
They all stand a good chance of making the first reflex save so even a boosted Intimidate check won't 1-shot them. They're also all fairly intellegent so will also know to get out of the way before the 2nd part of the maneuver
Not only must they succeed on the Martial Lore check to know there is a second a part to the maneuver but they are entangled for at least one round on a successful save. This means that even if their movement speed doesn't half sucks getting out of the area will be rather difficult anyway.
From the creatures I pointed you, the dragon has 200 feet fly speed and the marilith can greater teleport at will while the frost giant probably has a fancy mount from blackguard levels. Pretty much every enemy at that level has massive speeds, teleport of some sort and/or an alternate movement mode like burrowing.

Offline Prime32

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2012, 08:55:27 PM »
For the Cold Seriousness feat, I'd say make "Intimidate a creature immune to fear" carry a -4 penalty. That's pretty standard for stuff like this.

Freedom of Movement is pretty hax, but I don't see why this school should get to ignore it while everyone else doesn't (seems like it could be better solved by changing the spell itself). A, say, lv4 stance that lets you ignore FoM would be okay though.

Flower Wither Away
Crystallized Silver (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 1
Initiation Action: Fullround action
Range:cone with 10 feet per IL
Target: creatures inside the cone
Duration: 1 round
Save: 11+Cha mod

One of the most admirable abilities of Ice is to kill something while preserving its beauty.

When you initiate this maneuver creatures inside the cone take cold damage equal to your ranks in Intimidate. A sucessful Reflex save negates it.

Creatures failing their saves against Flower Wither Away have their movement speeds reduced by 5 feets for every point they failed the save.

Creatures reduced to negative HP by Flower Wither Away automatically stablize and covered by a thin layer of frost, apearing as a flawless sculpture of ice of their previous selfs. They don't need to breath, and the ice will melt normally, but in a frigid climate they may starve to death before it happens.
Creatures killed by Flower Wither Away are simply turned into refined ice sculptures.
The movement reduction is extremely variable. Couldn't you just slow them or something?

Also, no way to remove the ice is given; will healing them return them to normal? And how does it interact with "Duration: 1 round"? Depending on the answer I'd say change that to "If a creature would be slain by this maneuver, you may instead choose to leave them stabilised at -9hp".

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2012, 05:54:53 PM »
For the Cold Seriousness feat, I'd say make "Intimidate a creature immune to fear" carry a -4 penalty. That's pretty standard for stuff like this.
Yeah, good idea.

Freedom of Movement is pretty hax, but I don't see why this school should get to ignore it while everyone else doesn't (seems like it could be better solved by changing the spell itself).
Just keeping up with my other homebrew, where I make other such abilities able to ignore Freedom of Movement as well. Heck, with the latest paragon prc, anyone can easily grab some Freedom of Movement perverse love!

Flower Wither Away
Crystallized Silver (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 1
Initiation Action: Fullround action
Range:cone with 10 feet per IL
Target: creatures inside the cone
Duration: 1 round
Save: 11+Cha mod

One of the most admirable abilities of Ice is to kill something while preserving its beauty.

When you initiate this maneuver creatures inside the cone take cold damage equal to your ranks in Intimidate. A sucessful Reflex save negates it.

Creatures failing their saves against Flower Wither Away have their movement speeds reduced by 5 feets for every point they failed the save.

Creatures reduced to negative HP by Flower Wither Away automatically stablize and covered by a thin layer of frost, apearing as a flawless sculpture of ice of their previous selfs. They don't need to breath, and the ice will melt normally, but in a frigid climate they may starve to death before it happens.
Creatures killed by Flower Wither Away are simply turned into refined ice sculptures.
The movement reduction is extremely variable. Couldn't you just slow them or something?

Also, no way to remove the ice is given; will healing them return them to normal? And how does it interact with "Duration: 1 round"? Depending on the answer I'd say change that to "If a creature would be slain by this maneuver, you may instead choose to leave them stabilised at -9hp".
Isn't slow even nastier? Also a 3rd level spell? I tought an area slow would be kinda too much for a 1st level strike.

Anything can can remove normal ice will work on the Flower Wither away effect.

Also nice wording with that clause, replaced the old one with it.

Offline Prime32

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2012, 08:25:43 PM »
Freedom of Movement is pretty hax, but I don't see why this school should get to ignore it while everyone else doesn't (seems like it could be better solved by changing the spell itself).
Just keeping up with my other homebrew, where I make other such abilities able to ignore Freedom of Movement as well. Heck, with the latest paragon prc, anyone can easily grab some Freedom of Movement perverse love!
It's inconsistent though. The paragon ability isn't inconsistent, since all your abilities benefit from it.

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Isn't slow even nastier? Also a 3rd level spell? I tought an area slow would be kinda too much for a 1st level strike.
...right. I meant halve their speed.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Crystalized Silver: cold-based ToB school!
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2012, 04:49:01 PM »
Ok, made the FoM ignoring thing a part of Cold Seriousness.

Also changed FWA to halving speed in a failed save.