Author Topic: Help with swordsage/scout build  (Read 6597 times)

Offline aza9999

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Help with swordsage/scout build
« on: November 08, 2011, 01:38:04 AM »
I've been doing a bit of research the last few days, mostly looking into ToB and swordsage since i've never seen them in action, but it had been suggested for a build concept i have.

The concept is a high mobility harasser. Someone who can get in, do some damage or in some way debilitate the enemy and then get away again. I will also be the trapmonkey, sneaky person and scout for the group (who at this stage consist of a bard and a fighter/warblade with a 1 level Favored soul dip)

Im thinking about a 2 level dip in ranger to get swift hunter (skirmish applies to favoured enemies, ranger/scout levels stack for skirmish and fav enemy levels) free twf and the ability to use wands.

I'm level 1 human scout with rolled stats of:
Str 14
Dex 17
Con 13
Int 16
wis 13
cha 10 (the usual dump stat  ;D)
GM might allow slight rejigging of stats (shift a point or two or swap stats). We made enough xp in first session to go up a level so im ready to choose my class for level 2.

Basically my initial plan is:
Level 1 - Scout, Dodge, mobility (human bonus). At this stage i've chosen to go with kukri's for the big crit range.
Level 2 - Swordsage. Plan is to run up to enemy, use wolf fang strike to get two attacks at -2 and get skirmish (+1d6) on both, then use sudden leap to jump away as a swift action. Will use child of shadow stance to give 20% concealment. Discipline tiger style gives +1 to kukri's. I'll also have mighty throw so i can use that to put enemies down as well.
Level 3 - Scout, and take adaptive style (allows a full action to refresh all maneuvers).
Level 4 - Scout
Level 5 - Ranger
Level 6 - Scout, spring attack, swift hunter (scout bonus). At this stage most of my attacks will alternate using spring attack for 'drive-by' regular attacks, and the sudden leap/wolf strike combo.
Level 7 - Ranger twf
Level 8 - swordsage
Level 9 - Swordsage. Travel devotion feat. By this time my attack bonus should be enough that i can two weapon fight reliably so travel devotion allows me to move and full attack for 1 minute per day, the rest of the time i can use the wolf fang attack.

At level 9 my stats will be 15 naked ac, +7/2 base attack (which becomes +10/5 with kukri, or 8/8/3 dual wielded), fort 7, reflex 14, will 5 (but i will have the diamond mind maneuvers to replace will and fort with a concentration check)

When i skirmish i will have +2d6 damage to every attack, +1 to ac, and 20% concealment.

Alternate build is
Level 1 - Scout, Dodge, mobility (human bonus).
Level 2 - Swordsage
Level 3 - Scout, and take adaptive style (allows a full action to refresh all maneuvers).
Level 4 - Swordsage - take shadow jaunt (50ft teleport) and hunters stance (gives scent, good out of combat stance), get +wis to ac
Level 5 - Scout
Level 6 - Scout, spring attack, weapon finesse (scout bonus)
Level 7 - Scout, pick up evasion and increase skirmish to +2d6
Level 8 - swordsage
Level 9 - Swordsage. Travel devotion feat.

I lose the wands, have to wait till 12 to get twf (unless i take it instead of either weap finesse or travel devotion), lose 1 bab.
I gain better advancement of maneuvers, and evasion earlier

For the rest of the build i am still tossing up whether to continue swordsage/scout or to go dervish or tempest

I'd like a strong build that fits my concept, without getting into too much cheese.

Thoughts, suggestions, opinions?

Offline Kremti

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Re: Help with swordsage/scout build
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2011, 12:32:16 PM »
Given you are going for Travel Devotion, I think you should consider Cloistered Cleric dip.  It will give you:

Travel Devotion (Freeing up 1 feat), Knowledge Devotion (You can cover all important knowledge skills with Cleric + Ranger + 1 extra knowledge skill from the Devotion feat), and a domain (like a luck domain or something that's useful...or like Animal Devotion or somethin!)

Plus you get a source of Turning, which can fuel more Travel Devotion uses.

And access to Cleric wands.

-K

Offline solara

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Re: Help with swordsage/scout build
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2011, 12:42:26 PM »
Given you are going for Travel Devotion, I think you should consider Cloistered Cleric dip.  It will give you:

Travel Devotion (Freeing up 1 feat), Knowledge Devotion (You can cover all important knowledge skills with Cleric + Ranger + 1 extra knowledge skill from the Devotion feat), and a domain (like a luck domain or something that's useful...or like Animal Devotion or somethin!)

Plus you get a source of Turning, which can fuel more Travel Devotion uses.

And access to Cleric wands.

-K

And the Magic domain gives you the ability to use spell-trigger items like a wizard of 1/2 your cleric level. That is, you can now use sorcerer/wizard wands and other spell trigger/completion items. That's just fun.

Offline aza9999

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Re: Help with swordsage/scout build
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2011, 03:05:13 PM »
I've had a look at cloistered cleric, and it would definitely be handy mechanically but thematically it doesn't fit the character concept i have outlined to my GM, so he's guaranteed to call cheese.

Basically the story is im a princess who was constantly sneaking away outdoors and escaping her retainers and she had more interest in learning swords than learning to be a 'lady'. The court weapons trainer who was a swordsage found out and agreed to apprentice her in secret. (i've drawn some inspiration from arya of game of thrones).

Basically my fights should look something like a martial arts movie, with me running up walls (movement skill tricks), bouncing around the bad guys and generally being impossible to touch.

Edit:
Actually i was just thinking with my int bonus, a three level dip in swashbuckler would get me  +int to damage and free weapon finesse ...hmm thats something else i need to consider now
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 03:10:19 PM by aza9999 »

Offline Monotremeancer

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Re: Help with swordsage/scout build
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2011, 03:27:00 PM »
Hate to burst your bubble, but Adaptive style only allows you to  "change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action." instead of "You can change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so."". Refreshing each used maneuver is still a full-round action. It's still a useful feat, though.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Help with swordsage/scout build
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2011, 03:31:38 PM »
I've had a look at cloistered cleric, and it would definitely be handy mechanically but thematically it doesn't fit the character concept i have outlined to my GM, so he's guaranteed to call cheese.

Basically the story is im a princess who was constantly sneaking away outdoors and escaping her retainers and she had more interest in learning swords than learning to be a 'lady'. The court weapons trainer who was a swordsage found out and agreed to apprentice her in secret. (i've drawn some inspiration from arya of game of thrones).

Basically my fights should look something like a martial arts movie, with me running up walls (movement skill tricks), bouncing around the bad guys and generally being impossible to touch.

Edit:
Actually i was just thinking with my int bonus, a three level dip in swashbuckler would get me  +int to damage and free weapon finesse ...hmm thats something else i need to consider now

Why not?  Religious training for young noble ladies was very common; it's not like she could have completely dodged her tutors while growing up, after all^^  Say they were trying to prepare her to enter the convent when she got older, and bam, a background fit with an extra ready-made plot hook to boot ;)

Offline aza9999

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Re: Help with swordsage/scout build
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2011, 03:46:41 PM »
Hate to burst your bubble, but Adaptive style only allows you to  "change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action." instead of "You can change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so."". Refreshing each used maneuver is still a full-round action. It's still a useful feat, though.

From the wizards website, apparently this was addressed by customer service http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525942/Tome_of_Battle_Q38;A&post_num=4#331831374

It's been confirmed that adaptive style does ready all your maneuvers because you are replacing them all, even when you replace them with themselves.

Given swordsages have the worst recovery mechanic (balanced by having the most maneuvers) and have to spend a full round action anyway, this feat makes it a lot more usefull, although still not as nice as a warblade.

Quote
Why not?  Religious training for young noble ladies was very common; it's not like she could have completely dodged her tutors while growing up, after all^^  Say they were trying to prepare her to enter the convent when she got older, and bam, a background fit with an extra ready-made plot hook to boot ;)
It still doesn't make sense that she would take a level in a class that is against her nature just for mechanical advantage.
I may have been able to swing that at level 1 if i'd talked about it with the GM, but now that we're on the run (usualy story, palace assaulted and we escape in the dead of nite) anything that's significantly different would have to be justified by storyline beyond "oh i just remembered all the religious training and time in the library and now realise that i want to follow a holy path...for 1 level"  ;D

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Help with swordsage/scout build
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2011, 03:50:40 PM »
Ah, I saw that you were level one in the OP and somehow missed the part about having already run a session =/ 

Offline aza9999

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Re: Help with swordsage/scout build
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2011, 03:52:57 PM »
We've actually just finished our second session now and i've taken level 2 as swordsage and im now ready to level up to 3, which i was intending to take as scout (so i can get level 2 maneuvers at 4 with my second swordsage level)

Offline Monotremeancer

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Re: Help with swordsage/scout build
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2011, 03:53:37 PM »
Hmmm, that is quite useful. I've always hated the fact that you couldn't get proper recovery mechanic with a Swordsage since they are my favourite ToB-class. I must forward this to my current DM. Thanks, man/woman/other!
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Offline aza9999

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Re: Help with swordsage/scout build
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2011, 04:08:33 PM »
Hmmm, that is quite useful. I've always hated the fact that you couldn't get proper recovery mechanic with a Swordsage since they are my favourite ToB-class. I must forward this to my current DM. Thanks, man/woman/other!

lol, it's man  :D. In case he's not happy with a forum post, it's also in the latest officical wizards 3.5 FAQ http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a on page 38