Author Topic: Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 8941 times)

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #120 on: May 18, 2016, 12:08:35 PM »
There should be an ACF to remove the mount since mounts don't work for all campaigns, but I'm not sure what it would do. 

You don't have to ride it, you know. Worst case scenario, it's a 1/week summoning spell. Unlike Paladins, a Death Knight doesn't get all choked up and mopey for a month when that bag of bones bites it. It's just a matter of waiting a week for the infernal requisition forms to be processed.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #121 on: May 18, 2016, 12:18:45 PM »
But Paladins get four ACFs that replace their mount.  Death knights should at least get one, we can't let Paladins smack talk us!  :P


Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #122 on: May 18, 2016, 12:53:49 PM »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #123 on: May 18, 2016, 02:07:58 PM »
Wow, and you seemed so unmotivated to make one!

Yes, I am happy.   :)

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #124 on: May 19, 2016, 03:31:37 PM »
The discussion about maneuver save DCs has made me mull over whether Restless Bones maneuvers even should be Int-based, or if Str-based DCs would be more appropriate. Aside from Bone Puppet (which was missing its save DC formula) and Ossifying Blow, the various maneuvers with saves are more about bone-shattering force than about precision or necromantic weeaboo fightan magic. This is also important because Death Knights get a bit of MAD if they feel a pull for Int for these maneuvers (Str/Con for your standard melee combatant, can't completely dump Dex because of AC even if heavy armor means you don't need more than 12, a bit of Cha for class features and Devoted Spirit DCs, and Wis for Undying Call and Frozen Night DCs, which admittedly are less common and less important). I mean, they aren't dependent on having high everything, and should be able to function quite well even with dumping all 3 mental stats, but they're definitely missing out.

For reference, ToB discipline save DC types, although most disciplines only actually have a couple of maneuvers with saves, and several of them have DCs set by other factors like attack or damage rolls to boot. ALL of the Warblade disciplines (except maybe White Raven, which has no saves) are Str-based, only the Swordsage exclusives of Shadow Hand and Desert Wind are Wis-based, and the only Cha-based discipline is the Crusader-exclusive Devoted Spirit. ToB looks semi-random with its save DCs, but when you look at it form a distance, it's actually finely crafted to avoid MAD. The only classes that want anything other than Str for the maneuver save DCs are classes that want those other ability scores for class features already.

0) Keep the saves as Int-based. This leaves Restless Bones as the only reason for a Death Knight to want Int. Class features and Devoted Spirit run on Cha, and Frozen Night and Undying Call are Wis-based. I'm just listing this for reference, because I'm definitely not leaving it that way.

1) Switch the saves to Str-based. This reduces MAD a bit, since there are quite a few save-based Restless Bones maneuvers, so actually keeping the DCs up is more important than with other disciplines. However, using Str for supernatural maneuvers like Bone Puppet and Ossifying Blow, where the effect being saved against is entirely magical, not physical, feels odd.

2) Switch the saves to Cha-based. Most of the maneuvers with saves are about brute force, though, especially the ability score damagers (unlike Shadow Hand which is fluffed more about sapping your opponent's vitality), so Str fits most of them way too well.

3) Switch the saves of the non-supernatural maneuvers to Str-based, and change the supernatural maneuvers to be Cha-based. Not as far-fetched as it sounds, as Setting Sun forms a precedent (one Str-based maneuver and one Dex-based maneuver, albeit in a discipline with only two maneuvers with saves and a strong penchant for working with both ability scores in its other maneuvers). Bone Puppet, Ossifying Blow, and possibly Bone Shard and Bone Spear (I'm on the fence on whether their physicality trumps their technically being supernatural abilities) would be Cha-based

Also, regardless of how Restless Bones's save DCs change, I'm swapping Frozen Night to Cha-based save DCs.

Undying Call will remain Wis-based, as it's tied closer to the Spirit Warrior than the Death Night, it doesn't fit at all for Str-based DCs, and it doesn't have much that requires saves anyways so it's not a big issue. I suppose I could change it to be Cha-based and then alter the 1st-level Spirit Warrior class feature to also shift your Cha-based maneuver DCs to Wis-based like it does for skills and incorporeal AC, thus leaving both classes as DAD (dual attribute dependent) for maneuver DCs. Hm, that doesn't actually sound so bad, especially since Spirit Warriors have access to the Cha-based Devoted Spirit already.

I don't know why I'm worrying and arguing about Devoted Spirit, though. It's got all of 2 maneuvers with saves, and one of them has the DC set by your damage done so it doesn't count. Only Castigating Strike has a Cha-based save DC in Devoted Spirit. Eh, consistency.

Edit: Also, changed the Grim Reaper so Dread Necromancers can use it too.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 04:10:49 PM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #125 on: May 19, 2016, 04:31:55 PM »
I agree that the current setup makes me feel very MAD (you see what I did there?).  I'm trying to go Str > Cha > Con > Int and just avoiding Frozen Night and Undying Call save maneuvers. 

0) I'm glad this is already invalidated as an option, your second paragraph actually makes a whole lot of sense.

Undying call being Wis based makes perfect sense as I always saw it as the Spirit Warrior's discipline and the Death Knight just got it for completeness sake since he's the Death Knight.  If Frozen Night goes to Cha then I don't think that Restless Bones should be Cha, splitting them up works (and giving Death Knight three Cha based disciplines is a little too much IMO even though you already mentioned that Devoted Spirit already gets two).

Good call on Grim Reaper, I didn't even think of that.


Okay, on disciplines.  The way I see it, we have two basic options.

Option 1
Undying Call - Wis
Restless Bones - Str and/or Cha
Frozen Night - Cha

Death Knight needs three stats total for DCs: Wis, Str, and Cha.
Spirit Warrior needs two stats total for DCs since Devoted Spirit doesn't count: Wis and Str.

Option 2
Undying Call - Cha
Restless Bones - Str and/or Cha
Frozen Night - Cha

Death Knight needs two stats, Str and Cha
Spirit Warrior needs two stats, Str and Cha



I like option two, it makes a lot of sense.  I don't think that having Cha be the main class ability stat for both classes will be a bad thing.  Charisma is always thematically a big deal for undead and I think that switching Spirit Warrior to Cha will make more sense to people reading it since Incorporeal undead have always been based on Charisma.

As for how to do Restless Bones, I think that 1 or 3 would be the way to go, and I can see either one being valid.  3 would probably make the most sense from a logical perspective.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #126 on: May 19, 2016, 04:50:50 PM »
Okay, on disciplines.  The way I see it, we have two basic options.

Option 1
Undying Call - Wis
Restless Bones - Str and/or Cha
Frozen Night - Cha

Death Knight needs three stats total for DCs: Wis, Str, and Cha.
Spirit Warrior needs two stats total for DCs since Devoted Spirit doesn't count: Wis and Str.

Option 2
Undying Call - Cha
Restless Bones - Str and/or Cha
Frozen Night - Cha

Death Knight needs two stats, Str and Cha
Spirit Warrior needs two stats, Str and Cha



I like option two, it makes a lot of sense.  I don't think that having Cha be the main class ability stat for both classes will be a bad thing.  Charisma is always thematically a big deal for undead and I think that switching Spirit Warrior to Cha will make more sense to people reading it since Incorporeal undead have always been based on Charisma.

Oh, no, the Spirit Warrior is staying Wis-based. As much as they're tied to the Charisma-ness of incorporeality, they're coming at it from a refined spirituality perspective, not a strong-willed soul that hasn't realized or won't accept that it's dead yet perspective. Hence why they shift things from Charisma to Wisdom, including the AC bonus from being incorporeal. The thing is, if I changed Undying Call to Cha-based DCs (for the all of three maneuvers that have them, plus niche cases with negative levels and that feat that gives you a save to remove them early), I would also add maneuver save DCs to the list of things that Spiritual Force, the level 1 class feature, changes from being Cha-based to Wis-based (alongside incorporeal AC and skill checks). That would also have the added benefit of affecting that one maneuver from Devoted Spirit as well, letting Spirit Warriors not think twice about dumping it.

Quote
As for how to do Restless Bones, I think that 1 or 3 would be the way to go, and I can see either one being valid.  3 would probably make the most sense from a logical perspective.

I agree. Definitely either entirely or mostly Str-based. And as much as splitting them so some can be Cha-based where it make much more sense (Bone Puppet, really, since even Ossifying Blow is connected to a melee attack), there's value in consistency so I'm leaning towards keeping them all on Strength.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 04:53:16 PM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #127 on: May 19, 2016, 04:56:32 PM »
I missed the line where you talked about changing the save DCs from Cha to Wis.  So Option 2 is even better because you'll still have different ability score dependencies between the classes.  In that case I see no reason not to make Undying Call Charisma based since it's about being incorporeal and that's the tradition stat for that subtype.


Keeping all of Restless Bones on Strength does make things easier from a bookkeeping perspective, it means that I (or whoever) doesn't skim the maneuver and then use the wrong ability score to assign the save DC. 

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #128 on: May 19, 2016, 05:04:30 PM »
Aaaaand done! That was quick.

Edit: And for my own peace of mind, yes it is totally okay for so much of this to be Charisma/Wisdom-based, since this is one of ToB's supernaturally-inclined cousins.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 05:54:41 PM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #129 on: May 22, 2016, 02:25:06 PM »
Everything looks good. 

Now you need to make tactical feats for all the disciplines. :P

(Kidding.)

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #130 on: May 22, 2016, 03:14:27 PM »
I've got the non-tactical ones.



Bonesmithing [General]
Prerequisite: Initiator level 1st, Craft (weaponsmithing or armorsmithing) 4 ranks, one Restless Bones maneuver.
Benefit: In your hands, weapons made of bone are as effective as those made of iron or steel; you do not suffer the normal -2 penalty on attack and damage rolls with them. Additionally, you can craft any sort of weapon or armor using bone that is normally made of metal.
Normal: You suffer a -2 penalty on all attack and damage rolls with weapons made of bone. You cannot craft chainmail out of bone.



Craft Magic Bone Armaments [Item Creation]
Prerequisite: Bonesmithing, initiator level 5th, Craft (weaponsmithing or armorsmithing) 8 ranks, one Restless Bones maneuver.
Benefit: You can craft magical weapons and armor from bone. For the purpose of crafting or adding magical properties to any object made of bone, you can use this feat in place of the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, you can use your initiator level in place of your caster level, and you automatically meet the spell prerequisites of any spell of a level equal to or lower than the highest level Restless Bones maneuver you know and can initiate.
Special: Craft Magic Bone Armaments can be used in place of Craft Magic Arms and Armor to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. If this substitution allows you to gain a benefit that normally applies to objects of all materials, it instead applies only to objects made of bone.



Lingering Chill [General]
Prerequisite: One Frozen Night strike.
Benefit: Whenever you deal cold damage with a Frozen Night strike, the subject takes an extra 1d6 cold damage at the start of your next turn if it remains within 30 feet of you. This damage does not trigger Lingering Chill again. If you deal cold damage multiple times to the same subject in a single round, the subject takes the additional cold damage only once.

This feat is a supernatural ability.



Overflowing Spirit [General]
Prerequisite: One Undying Call stance.
Benefit: While you are in an Undying Call stance, whenever the duration of any temporary hit points gained from an Undying Call maneuver or stance expires, you heal a number of hit points equal to half the remaining temporary hit points lost this way. For example, if you had gained 20 temporary hit points from the Death Coil maneuver, then took 7 points of damage, you would heal 6 hit points at the start of your turn when the remaining 13 temporary hit points expired.

This feat is a supernatural ability.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #131 on: May 22, 2016, 03:40:29 PM »
Of course you do.  :p

Bonesmithing/Craft Magic Bone Armaments - Flavorful and powerful.

Lingering Chill - I was going to poo-poo this feat but then I remembered how many area cold attacks Lingering Chill has.

Overflowing Spirit - I like this one, it's a very good feat with some steep requirements for it to apply.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #132 on: May 22, 2016, 05:52:55 PM »
Of course you do.  :p

I have no ideas about the tactical feats, though. Well, maybe the feat names, but not for any of the tactical maneuvers within.

Quote
Bonesmithing/Craft Magic Bone Armaments - Flavorful and powerful.

Bonesmithing probably needs a little extra so it's not just bringing you back to normal with inferior materials. Like, say, an extra +1 AC for bone armor or +1 attack/damage for bone weapons in a Restless Bones stance.

Quote
Lingering Chill - I was going to poo-poo this feat but then I remembered how many area cold attacks Lingering Chill has.

It's also fun in that it's an inversion of sorts of the equivalent Desert Wind feat (move 10 ft., get +1d6 damage with a DW strike).

Quote
Overflowing Spirit - I like this one, it's a very good feat with some steep requirements for it to apply.

Steeper than I thought. I forgot that the temp hp from Undying Call maneuvers last for 1 minute, not 1 round. That basically means that you heal for 1/2 whatever you have left over at the end of the encounter. I need to re-evaluate it. The feat may require some adjustment.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #133 on: May 22, 2016, 06:22:12 PM »
I agree that Bonesmithing could use more, I was thinking about them as a chain instead of individually.  Craft Magic Bone Armaments is good as is though.

I didn't know about the Desert Wind feat (that's one of the disciplines I've always avoided using).  Definitely makes sense then.

I didn't realize that the temp hp were for 1 minute either.

Hmm, you could change it so that if you gain temp hp from an Undying Call maneuver while still having temp hp from an Undying Call maneuver then you heal half of the hp from the old temp hp instead of them just being subsumed into the new temp hp.  Still keeping the stance requirement.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #134 on: June 26, 2016, 02:44:58 AM »
Added a new creature, the dark unicorn, an evil unicorn corrupted by dark magic and negative energy.

Death Knights get dark unicorns as an 11th-level mount choice. This replaces the hacked fiendish unicorn option at 8th-level, which on further review looked distinctly more powerful than other 8th-level options. I may revert it down to 8th-level if I review it again and see something different when I'm not so tired, though.