Breaking E6: Where are the holes?

[caelic]

I'm considering an E6 campaign, and I'd like it to have some long-term viability--which means I'd like to close the largest holes preemptively.  (I really dislike ad hoc retcons in the middle of a campaign due to unanticipated problems.)

On the other hand, I don't want to shut things down if it's not necessary.  One of the nice things about E6 is that you DON'T have to micromanage it, for the most part.  I want players to be able to build the characters they want.

So, the question is: where does E6 break down?   If you were trying to make an overpowered E6 character, what route would you take?  Areas I've identified so far:


1.  Artificer.  This, to me, is the biggest hole.  E6 strives to hit the "sweet spot" where casters and fighters are balanced, and, for the most part, it succeeds.  Casters generally start to pull away at level 7 with the advent of fourth level spells.  The Artificer, though, starts to pull away at 5, and spikes drastically at level 6.  By level 6, the Artificer has basically all the features that make it better at everything than every other class.

The question is, can this be fixed without banning the Artificer?  I've never made any secret of the fact that I'm a fan of the class, but I don't want it to be utterly dominant in the campaign setting.


2. Effigies.  There's a world of potential for abuse here, particularly in conjunction with CL boosts (like the Artificer's!)  It's easy to shut down the worst abuses by saying "No templates," but that still leaves people running around with 7-headed hydras, fully armored Annis grunts, and wyvern mounts...and that's with only a single CL boost and the Monster Manual!

3. Spellstitching.  I'm fond of Necropolitans, but a Spellstitched Necropolitan can be trotting around with close to a dozen SLAs of up to 6th level.  In a game where third level spells are king, that's...pretty fricking scary.

4. Dragonwrought kobolds.  This one's not too hard a fix--just nix the epic feats and free sorcerer level tricks.

[Hallack]

CL tricks for both spell usage and item creation can be an issue if not handled.

[Mooncrow]

Templates and +LA can be an issue as well.

[caelic]

The question is, which ones are enough of an issue to merit outright removing them?  I'm leery of anything with a fairly low LA and hit-dice based spellcasting, for instance--or a low LA and stat bonuses which outweigh the reduced point buy.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Psi recharge


Ardent + early power access cheese = easy fix / too complicated to explain anyway without debating.

[Mixster]

Bards, while not inherently broken, get pretty wickedly strong in E6.

Vest of Legends + Badge of Valor + Capstone Feat + Masterwork Horn + Words of Creations gives around +10 Inspire Courage. Which is quite frigging awesome at level 6. With tricks (read dragonfire inspiration) and extra performance feats, this can be changed into a quite awesome damage and secondary attacks hitting enabler. This is why archer bard (or even a bard focusing on whips) is one of my favorite classes in E6.

[caelic]

Sure.  Factotum can also be pretty awesome in E6, just because of the sheer number of FoIs he can take.

I'm trying to draw a line between "pretty awesome," which is fun for all involved, and "breaks the game," which detracts from the fun of those involved.

The bard, I think, falls in the former category, since so much of HIS awesome makes everyone ELSE awesome.

[Libertad]

Bards, while not inherently broken, get pretty wickedly strong in E6.

Vest of Legends + Badge of Valor + Capstone Feat + Masterwork Horn + Words of Creations gives around +10 Inspire Courage. Which is quite frigging awesome at level 6. With tricks (read dragonfire inspiration) and extra performance feats, this can be changed into a quite awesome damage and secondary attacks hitting enabler. This is why archer bard (or even a bard focusing on whips) is one of my favorite classes in E6.

What's a Capstone Feat?

Edit: Sorry I didn't realize it's an E6 thing.

[Shadowhunter]

Just going to point out that Vest of Legends require Greater Heroism to create. A 5th level Bard spell/6th level Sor/Wiz.
So depending on how you handle that, it might never have a chance to be made.

Q: Can you make high-level items as a
low-level caster in E6?
A: No, caster level requirements for
magic items are treated as hard
requirements.

Aura/Caster Level: Strong enchantment and transmutation;
CL 13th.
Construction: Craft Wondrous Item, eagle’s splendor,
greater heroism, 8,000 gp (for pair), 640 XP, 16 days.

Of course, if you're doing a "This was once a standard DnD world that had cataclysms and Armageddons brought to it because of too powerful creatures walking the planes and the gods decided to put a Limit on everything, but there's still old relics and artifacts from that age that could be found" like I'm going for in my setting, then it's not a problem.

Capstone Feat for a Bard would probably be a Feat to give him Inspire Courage +1. The E6 rules gives suggestions on such "capstone feats" could be made for things like that.

The Lean Upward Approach looks at the
Gestalt Approach and says “6th level plus many feats is clearly more powerful than
6th level. Thus, it won’t be game-breaking to allow feat chains that bring characters
from 6th level to 8th level, although this progression should be quite slow.” GMs
who like the Lean Upward approach might have feats to bring BAB to +8, or to gain
4th level spells, or 8th level class features additional hit dice, and so on.

I would never play a E6 game with a Binder if it didn't have the option to give me a capstone feat for a second soul bind for example.
So unless the DM said that was ok, I'd play something else.


A possible thing that could be dangerous is Cleric 2/Dread Necromancer 1/Master of Shrouds 3.
Summoning Shadows at level 6 is very good. It can be managed I supposed, but this also means a lot of fun encounters that could be challenging for other players will be overrun by the MoS.
I might not remove it, but it's something that needs to be considered.

[caelic]

For me, the MoS build is sort of the worst of both worlds: it's got one very powerful trick, and other than that, it's just not all that good.  It's going to dominate those encounters where its trick is useful, and sit around being irrelevant in encounters where the trick isn't useful.

[RobbyPants]

A pounce charger can do +24 power attack damage per each of three attacks for -6 AC at level 6. And that's not counting weapon and Str damage. 100ish damage is solid enough at level 6 to look twice at.

[Maat Mons]

Just going to point out that Vest of Legends require Greater Heroism to create. A 5th level Bard spell/6th level Sor/Wiz.
So depending on how you handle that, it might never have a chance to be made.

Q: Can you make high-level items as a
low-level caster in E6?
A: No, caster level requirements for
magic items are treated as hard
requirements.

According to the errata for Dungeon Master's Guide, wondrous items don't have caster level requirements.  Artificers aren't limited by level for what spell prerequisites they can meet, except for potions, wands, and scrolls.  Once again, artificers create problems in E6. 

[gorfnab]

Wildshape Mystic Ranger with the Feat Sword of the Arcane Order - BAB +6 at level 6, 3rd level ranger and wizard spells, wildshape, decent HD and skill points. Tack on Arcane Hunter and Trapfinding (since Track is a feat) ACFs for even more fun. For feats look into Magical Training (for your spellbook if necessary), Nemesis, Natural Spell, Extra Wild Shape, Wise to Your Ways, and Wild Cohort. This can basically be a jack of all trades/ one man party in E6.

Nightstalker (Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon) gives you a 3HD Ghost Cohort at 6th level. Dealing with Incorporeal Undead at 6th level can be a bit tricky.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Savage Ghost progression and Divine Minion template can cause problems as usual.

Ghost:
Telekinesis (sor/wiz 5) every 1d4 rounds at caster level 12.
Malevolence, similar to magic jar at caster level 10, but doesn't need a receptacle.

Divine Minion: Wildshape as 11th level druid all day(specific forms),
if allowed to stack with wildshape can get into Master of Many Forms really early.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Just going to point out that Vest of Legends require Greater Heroism to create. A 5th level Bard spell/6th level Sor/Wiz.
So depending on how you handle that, it might never have a chance to be made.

Q: Can you make high-level items as a
low-level caster in E6?
A: No, caster level requirements for
magic items are treated as hard
requirements.

** According to the errata for Dungeon Master's Guide, wondrous items don't have caster level requirements. 

Huh. I never bothered with that.
Even outside of E6 that's a doozy.

Psi gets screwed comparatively with Universal Item.


**


Psi Artificer ... (not that this matters so much) ... can do
it's basic cost trick with Dorjes + Linked metapsi.
Just say no about Linked ; or make them play a flavored regular Arty.

[KicktheCAN]

Metamagic can be very dangerous in E6. The prime offenders are Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, and Divine Metamagic. They effectively allow you to cast spells higher than 4th-level. Fell Drain is particularly nasty (even without any of the aforementioned cheapeners); without any of them you can cast a Fell Draining Magic Missile to give three creatures a negative level as a standard action; with the reducers you can (with enough feats) cast an Invisible Sanctum Quickened Repeating Twinned Fell Draining Sonic Snap of Three Thunders for two negative levels and two more next round as a swift action (no save). This is admittedly an extreme example.

Any combination of two of Improved Sigil (Krau), Sanctum Spell, or Earth Spell with enough Extra Slots will net you ninth level spells.

[nijineko]

Psi recharge


Ardent + early power access cheese = easy fix / too complicated to explain anyway without debating.

that does not work anymore. ardents have been called out by the designer as being class level based for power selection. but it is one's own game, so feel free to overlook it if you must. ^^

[JaronK]

My basic fixit rules:  Mortals (read: you and the NPC folks you hang out with) can't have a natural caster level higher than 6.  No fourth level spells are castable by mortals (just like the usual epic limit, just because you got a 10th level spells lot doesn't mean you can suddenly cast epic spells at level 17, if you manage it).  Items that require caster levels of higher than 6 or otherwise inaccessible spells can't be bought (because mortals can't make them).  Some exceptions may apply for people using Dark Speech, but then the items are evil and corrupt and probably a plot hook (and liable to be cursed).  This also fixes Artificers.

As a general rule to the players: if a normal (not crazy optimized) character can't get it before 7th level, your character simply can't do it.

Then again, I also am playing with the idea of rotating Gestalt E6... your first 6 levels are normal.  Every time you level up after that, you get to gestalt in a level... so 7th level means you gestalt your first level (which may effect your skill points significantly).  8th level you gestalt your second level and get +1 to a stat.  9th level you gestalt your third level and gain a feat.  10th and 11th levels you gestalt your 4th and 5th levels.  12th level you gain +1 to a stat, gain a feat, and gestalt your 6th.  13th level gestalt in a third class to your first level.  14th you gestalt in a third class to your second level.  15th level you gestalt in a third class to your 3rd level and gain a feat.  And so on.  You can only qualify for PrCs if you could have qualified before this level (so you can't add in a PrC that requires +4 BAB until 5th level), but you can have multiple PrCs on the same level if you really want.

It lets the players keep advancing without going horribly crazy.

JaronK

[radionausea]

Psi recharge


Ardent + early power access cheese = easy fix / too complicated to explain anyway without debating.

that does not work anymore. ardents have been called out by the designer as being class level based for power selection. but it is one's own game, so feel free to overlook it if you must. ^^

Where is this?  And, well, not to be a dick, but, errata is the only thing that really fixes it - if the designer had meant it to be class based they had their chance to write it as such prior to publication and Wizards had their chance to fix it and didn't.

[Mooncrow]

My basic fixit rules:  Mortals (read: you and the NPC folks you hang out with) can't have a natural caster level higher than 6.  No fourth level spells are castable by mortals (just like the usual epic limit, just because you got a 10th level spells lot doesn't mean you can suddenly cast epic spells at level 17, if you manage it).  Items that require caster levels of higher than 6 or otherwise inaccessible spells can't be bought (because mortals can't make them).  Some exceptions may apply for people using Dark Speech, but then the items are evil and corrupt and probably a plot hook (and liable to be cursed).  This also fixes Artificers.

As a general rule to the players: if a normal (not crazy optimized) character can't get it before 7th level, your character simply can't do it.

Then again, I also am playing with the idea of rotating Gestalt E6... your first 6 levels are normal.  Every time you level up after that, you get to gestalt in a level... so 7th level means you gestalt your first level (which may effect your skill points significantly).  8th level you gestalt your second level and get +1 to a stat.  9th level you gestalt your third level and gain a feat.  10th and 11th levels you gestalt your 4th and 5th levels.  12th level you gain +1 to a stat, gain a feat, and gestalt your 6th.  13th level gestalt in a third class to your first level.  14th you gestalt in a third class to your second level.  15th level you gestalt in a third class to your 3rd level and gain a feat.  And so on.  You can only qualify for PrCs if you could have qualified before this level (so you can't add in a PrC that requires +4 BAB until 5th level), but you can have multiple PrCs on the same level if you really want.

It lets the players keep advancing without going horribly crazy.

JaronK

I'm not generally a fan of E6, but that actually looks interesting.