Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 48194 times)

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2013, 04:03:09 AM »
Not necessarily pointless. Especially when you want to use your highest strike maneuver, maybe also your highest boost/counter maneuver, and maybe use your great speed, and perhaps a main weapon.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2013, 04:48:14 AM »
Random Balance Thing: I've been looking at it, and increased energy storage (for a Super Robot) is pointless. Reactor II is enough. Aside from levels 1 and 3, you always regenerate as much or more energy than your highest-level maneuver costs, so energy total becomes more of a buffer. Specifically, it's because then your energy regenerated goes up by 6 every two levels, starting at 3, whilst maneuver cost only goes up by 5.

Besides what Anomander mentioned there's also arsenal weapons that cost energy and the special weapons that drain energy when they hit you. I think you're seriously underestimating how much energy you are likely to need on a given turn. 

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2013, 05:17:31 AM »
Random Balance Thing: I've been looking at it, and increased energy storage (for a Super Robot) is pointless. Reactor II is enough. Aside from levels 1 and 3, you always regenerate as much or more energy than your highest-level maneuver costs, so energy total becomes more of a buffer. Specifically, it's because then your energy regenerated goes up by 6 every two levels, starting at 3, whilst maneuver cost only goes up by 5.

Wait what? How? Mecha maneuvers cost 5 times the level of the maneuver in energy. Your highest level maneuvers thus costs 45 energy. You need like almost 250 energy for Reactor 2 (20% energy regen) to cover that and come out roughly even.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2013, 05:23:38 AM »
You can't actually use all of these things in one turn (Main Weapon and Arsenal weapons are cheap to use, too) and this is on top of having Level x10 energy.

I think I'd still rather upgrade reactors than expand capacity. At level 5, the maximum is 25 a turn, for 10 points. At level 10, it's 50 (highest single expenditure is 25) and at level 20 it's 100 and that number is now 45. This is the amount that comes back a turn, so even if it's hugely drained there's still a lot of options next turn. Energy boosts? It can double your capacity, but you burn through it much quicker, and you end up investing more to get the maximum out.

Energy Drain seems worse for large energy reserves as opposed to regeneration. You're getting less back.

Hmm... spreadsheet time. Going to check stuff.

Random Balance Thing: I've been looking at it, and increased energy storage (for a Super Robot) is pointless. Reactor II is enough. Aside from levels 1 and 3, you always regenerate as much or more energy than your highest-level maneuver costs, so energy total becomes more of a buffer. Specifically, it's because then your energy regenerated goes up by 6 every two levels, starting at 3, whilst maneuver cost only goes up by 5.

Wait what? How? Mecha maneuvers cost 5 times the level of the maneuver in energy. Your highest level maneuvers thus costs 45 energy. You need like almost 250 energy for Reactor 2 (20% energy regen) to cover that and come out roughly even.

Mecha regenerate 1/10th of their energy per turn by default. If Reactor isn't additive, Reactor I is effectively useless.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 05:25:36 AM by Raineh Daze »
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2013, 05:50:22 AM »
Why are you assuming a maximum of 1 maneuver/ round? The schools all have boosts and counters. You're not accounting for movement, either. 

It's not a choice between reactor and capacity in any case. You clearly do both to some degree.

The fact that mecha regenerate energy without the reactor property really needs to go in the mecha basics post. This was the first I'd heard of it.

In fact, it makes no sense to make "Reactor" a special property that starts at I when mecha already regenerate that much automatically. Reactor should be an inherent property with all mecha having reactor I, and the upgrades/arsenal should improve it.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2013, 06:06:47 AM »
A detail I was wondering; wouldn't it be better to have the damage of a critical hit deal as much damage to the pilot as it would deal to the mecha instead of just normal damage to the pilot and the multiplied damage to the mecha? I mean, you hit the bloody cockpit. I think that's usually an instant kill in mecha stuff.
Mostly because I think a pilot would normally have a much easier time healing himself than healing his mecha. I'd rather have my pilot eat the normal damage than have my mecha eat it instead.

Too bad, mechas are designed to protect the pilot, not the other way around.


...Also, once your mecha gains sentience, would it be considered weird, or maybe even a little creepy, to have relationship feats with your mecha as the target?
Mechas, even if sentient, just as intelligent equipment are not individuals.

What's the carrying capacity for ships?

How much you can fit inside.

I tried both both options and made myself diagrams to evaluate which was the better option and I went with super robot in the end.
You actually multiclassed into real robot to get a bunch  of extra HP, energy and arsenal space.

The real robot list is the only place mecha flying is discussed but it does say "all mecha" so I'm thinkig that's a yes. That section should probably be copied into the mecha basics post. Also, it says that flying drains energy but it says that in the context of explaining the speed stat. Seems like flying is the default movement mode. Is it possible to move without flying and thus without losing energy? If so, does such movement work off the same speed stat or a different one? This should probably also be addressed in the mecha basics post.

All mechas have base speeds, flying speeds are always extra. It cannot be adressed more than that.


You can't actually use all of these things in one turn (Main Weapon and Arsenal weapons are cheap to use, too) and this is on top of having Level x10 energy.
As already pointed out, you also burn energy for flying and then there's stuff like the Mighty upgrade and using multiple maneuvers in a single round.

Mecha regenerate 1/10th of their energy per turn by default. If Reactor isn't additive, Reactor I is effectively useless.
It is additive.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2013, 06:11:04 AM »
All mechas have base speeds, flying speeds are always extra. It cannot be adressed more than that.

You could put it in the mecha basics post.

It would also be good to phrase this portion:

Quote
All mechas are equiped with thrusters of some kind that allow them to fly at their base speed on their own turns, but they must end their turn on a surface or fall when their turn ends, unless they're in space. Mechas with a flight speed can fly all the time when on a planet's surface. Either way, flight consumes 1 energy for each 5 mu moved. A mecha reduced to 0 energy falls or is rendered immobile if in space.

"that grant them a flight speed equal to their base speed"

That way it is clear that the flight speed and the base speed are seperate things. The way it is currently written it can be read to say that the flight speed is the base speed and thus all movement costs energy.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 06:14:27 AM by Concerned Ninja Citizen »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2013, 06:15:35 AM »
Yeah, I realised there's extra costs. So far I have four pages on this thing. >_>;

Not helped by the fact it likes glitching on me.

Anyway... back to working on it.

Though I would like to know how you could manage to use all of this stuff in one round (which, by the way, looks like you'll be getting two rounds out of it, best case scenario)

Edit: Yeah, one round if you just blast everything you have (three top-level maneuvers, maximum flight, fully upgraded main weapon, etc.) and haven't upgraded energy, two if you have. Time until you can redo it: 2 rounds and 5 rounds, respectively. That's... what, average of 1/3 of the time and... 3/12 of the time? Okay, it's a smaller difference than I was expecting, I'll admit (but I haven't taken energy drain into account, which honestly would be worse with less regeneration as it takes longer to recover. Also because there's a fort save, so it's kind of... unpredictable).

That's 20th level. 15th, 10th, and 1st level, you can't use everything (three maneuvers of the highest level you have access to, maximum movement, energy-using arsenal stuff, and fully upgraded main weapon) at once. But your regeneration is too slow without Reactor to make it feasible to use anything over the long term...

Since mecha get such high HP, and there's a comparative lack of save-or-die stuff here, I'm inclined to view things as lasting longer than just the few rounds.

But... it bothers me, still: they get increasingly generic the more I look at it. Having good weapons requires either large energy expenditure or being larger, and both of those require other things to not be a death sentence. Gaaaaah.

... really annoyed at the Real Robot with vastly higher DR and Natural Armour than a mecha eight times its size can even get at, though with all the power and rending stuff dodge is probably more useful... hmm... probably time to respec the Yatagarasu, though.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 06:39:54 AM by Raineh Daze »
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2013, 12:24:34 PM »
Improved the base HP/energy of all real robots between II and VI.

Since mecha get such high HP, and there's a comparative lack of save-or-die stuff here, I'm inclined to view things as lasting longer than just the few rounds.
That's the plan at least.

But... it bothers me, still: they get increasingly generic the more I look at it. Having good weapons requires either large energy expenditure or being larger, and both of those require other things to not be a death sentence. Gaaaaah.

By all means sugest new upgrade options for the Super Robots. The original plan was to add new crazy options as inspiration kicked in, but alas, it never came. :P

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2013, 01:09:48 PM »
Quote
You actually multiclassed into real robot to get a bunch  of extra HP, energy and arsenal space.
Yep. But I chose to go with way more Super R levels than Reals. I went with super robot in the end.  Will look again now that the second and third real tiers have been upgraded.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2013, 01:18:29 PM »
Missed this one the other time.

Wondering, is there something on mechas that stop people from just teleporting into another's mecha?
Like using a dimension door, or phasing in from the etereal plane. Or otherwise appear in your cockpit to duke it out with you from inside.
And if you get attacking inside the cockpit, are you at a disadvantage if you don't stop piloting your mecha while getting attacked?
You can try to teleport inside somebody else's mecha. However due to its internal structure, and the fact there's plenty of parts moving around in the interior means chances are that you'll end up attempting to materialize inside something solid and be shunted outside.

Similar problem for ethereal. You can pass trough it, but actually geting into the cockpit and back into the material in time is a trick against all odds.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2013, 01:40:22 PM »
An upgrade to make a weapon an area attack? Pretty much every Real but one from level four onwards has something like that. And whilst there are some Arsenal weapons with the property, a short range, low power shotgun is the only option before level 13. Then there's the Remote Slasher... and I honestly have no idea what that is meant to be. :???

I wonder if it would be possible to have some sort of mutually exclusive upgrades for weapons? Like something that changes the die type from d6 but is mutually exclusive with Mighty (so, in the weapon size/damage charts, move from shortspear downwards to longswords, bastard swords, greatswords). Need to work out how they compare (for mecha of different sizes). Hmm... (also work out what the hell to do about the fact bastard sword damage improves faster than greatsword damage beyond colossal)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 02:11:00 PM by Raineh Daze »
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Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2013, 02:23:27 PM »
You can try to teleport inside somebody else's mecha. However due to its internal structure, and the fact there's plenty of parts moving around in the interior means chances are that you'll end up attempting to materialize inside something solid and be shunted outside.

Similar problem for ethereal. You can pass trough it, but actually geting into the cockpit and back into the material in time is a trick against all odds.

Doesn't sound so complicated once you know exactly where the pilot is within the mecha.
As to ethereality/incorporeality, you don't have to re-materialize to be a threat. Once the pilot is in sight and within line of effect, you can do stuff to him.

What changed in the races?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 02:25:39 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2013, 02:30:57 PM »
An upgrade to make a weapon an area attack? Pretty much every Real but one from level four onwards has something like that. And whilst there are some Arsenal weapons with the property, a short range, low power shotgun is the only option before level 13. Then there's the Remote Slasher... and I honestly have no idea what that is meant to be. :???
Well, the Burning Justice school has plenty of area attacks, but I could see that.

Remote slashers are basically mecha-sized shurikens with auto-spinners or something like that. :p

You can try to teleport inside somebody else's mecha. However due to its internal structure, and the fact there's plenty of parts moving around in the interior means chances are that you'll end up attempting to materialize inside something solid and be shunted outside.

Similar problem for ethereal. You can pass trough it, but actually geting into the cockpit and back into the material in time is a trick against all odds.

Doesn't sound so complicated once you know exactly where the pilot is within the mecha.
As to ethereality/incorporeality, you don't have to re-materialize to be a threat. Once the pilot is in sight and within line of effect, you can do stuff to him.
That's where the "moving components" part comes in. No mecha is static. In battle it is constant movement inside and out.

As for ethereal, even if you don't want to return to the material, good luck geting said line of sight.

Just like you cannot teleport yourself inside somebody else's stomach/heart just because they're considerably bigger than you, or enter ethereal inside their body and attempt to target their vital organs.

What changed in the races?
Clarifying that the android's personal weapon doesn't carry over to the mecha she pilots.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 02:34:37 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2013, 02:39:00 PM »
Well, it has the Drill Rocket Punch, but what if I was drawing from the other school? :p

It's kind of unfortunate that you put most of the mechanical upgrades into the school, since it leaves less to suggest.

It seems that, fully upgraded,  Mighty is always superior. +4 to +24 for four upgrades isn't bad, though; it just tends to lose its impact. Would probably be more energy and upgrade-efficient, if less outright powerful.

Also, Bastard Swords become a real bitch beyond Colossal. >_>;
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 02:52:15 PM by Raineh Daze »
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Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2013, 02:49:06 PM »
Not sure whether or not you actually cannot port into the body of a large but I get what you mean.

The effects I had in mind can teleport you next to your target, so no matter how much it moves in there you don't have to decide where in there you teleport. You just do and right next to it, so even if entering solid material the closest space would be next to the pilot.
Another effect in mind is a reversal teleportation that switches your place with the target, so the pilot would be outside and the user inside the mecha.

Edit: Nevermind. It technically works, but for practical reasons it just doesn't.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 03:00:42 PM by Anomander »

Offline Clanjos

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2013, 04:06:17 PM »
Hm... Combining mecha are a staple, but this is proving difficult. Perhaps they start out at Mecha (Small) or (Tiny) and combine into something at a more reasonable size. The more components going in, the larger it becomes. Not sure how to handle the individual pilots though- maybe they need to upgrade their mechas to add more docking points for additional mechs in the combination.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #77 on: May 01, 2013, 04:13:12 PM »
The biggest problem with Combining Mecha looks like it would be getting multiple people... and then making it worth it, because they would hardly get number of people x actions. Hmm.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #78 on: May 01, 2013, 06:56:37 PM »
My skeleton plan for the Combining Robot Team would be something along this lines:
-You get 3-5 pilots, each with a minor vehicle.
-They can combine into an extra-super robot, but that is stressing for the machines, so they can only hold it up for some rounds every day/hour/something. You can end it earlier than usual to save up uses, being even viable combine/divide/combine again during combat. Perhaps it just drains energy like crazy while disabling all energy recovery.
-The combining robot works like a super robot, except its upgrades are spread out evenly among the diferent team member vehicles when separated.
-Like in a ship, secondary pilots can only help with spirits. However you can swap who is leading the robot with swift/move action.
-Custom school where when one pilot uses a maneuver, others can help if they also know it. All of the team pilot members know the same maneuvers. This helps them be useful when separated, but gets even better when they're combined.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #79 on: May 01, 2013, 07:01:36 PM »
So, bigger team = stronger robot (due to more upgrade points)?

Hardest part seems to be not making it possible to specialise in being the 'leader' and therefore turning the combined time into a one-man show. Hmm.
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