Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 52074 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #80 on: May 01, 2013, 07:10:24 PM »
All of the team pilots are under control of the same player. There'll probably be a leader, but even then they each will be quite weak individually compared to other pilots.

If you pick less "parts", they simply get more upgrades. Think of Getter HRobo, where even separated their fighter jets are quite good.

Hmm, have to remember to add a feat to allow a single pilot to keep the whole thing going if things come to worst. :p

Online Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #81 on: May 01, 2013, 07:13:34 PM »
Huh, I thought that this was going to be multiple players rather than one. Because... uh... four or five sets of actions and the ability to combine into a mecha better than anything the other two classes can get, and five characters? You're basically a one-man party. :/
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Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #82 on: May 01, 2013, 07:25:29 PM »
Well. Let's see.
Here's a draft, probably flawed as it was thought up rather quickly and I don't have much time for it right now.

(click to show/hide)

Argh. 4 posts already got in before I could finish!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 08:02:56 PM by Anomander »

Online Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #83 on: May 01, 2013, 07:39:24 PM »
Quote
The merged mecha would be the size of the biggest mecha +1 per additional mecha.

Doesn't add up. Large is twice the size of Medium, but four times the size of Small, and Huge is four and eight times, respectively.

The thing with those rules... is that you end up with a ludicrously overpowered robot in base stats and action economy (can take a move action and several fullround actions? Awesome) and you single out both one person to have control of the mecha and one of your class features.

Three or four pilots should be enough to have every possible upgrade maxed, and you'll have 40% HP and 50% Energy regeneration per round online at level 3.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 07:45:19 PM by Raineh Daze »
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2013, 07:45:30 PM »
Yeah, plus it goes completely bonkers with leadership in that you only need one "main" guy and then an army of 1st level pilots to sky-rocket your stuff. Combining robot just doesn't work if only one of the pilot really matters and the rest are just fodder to stack up on top.

Huh, I thought that this was going to be multiple players rather than one. Because... uh... four or five sets of actions and the ability to combine into a mecha better than anything the other two classes can get, and five characters? You're basically a one-man party. :/

One player for the team. Multiple players for a single robot is a can of worms I will not open.

However, I'll reiterate the team members are individiually much weaker than any other pilot. Check the mecha mooks, which is basically the equivalent for real robots. No bonus feats, minor saves, HD and skills, and they'll only get limited spirits. And they can only combine for a limited amount of time every day, and even then the head pilot will still be inferior to other pilots.

Probably a custom vulnerability as well, in that the head pilot is more exposed than normal, meaning you'll probably have to cycle trough the secondary pilots.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 07:47:06 PM by oslecamo »

Online Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2013, 07:54:09 PM »
Ah, I think I understand.

However, question: would it be possible to start with a Super Pilot for, say, five levels, then multiclass into the combining class as the 'leader'? The other mecha would be several levels behind, but the leader's would be a bit tougher.

I may or may not have gotten this episode stuck in my head.
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Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2013, 08:01:19 PM »
Doesn't add up. Large is twice the size of Medium, but four times the size of Small, and Huge is four and eight times, respectively.
It could grow more as per the individual size of merging mechas as per that system. I just went with that way to make simple increases rather than semi-complex size maths.

The thing with those rules... is that you end up with a ludicrously overpowered robot in base stats and action economy (can take a move action and several fullround actions? Awesome) and you single out both one person to have control of the mecha and one of your class features.
Not sure how that is different than a bunch of people riding a titanic creature. Action economy isn't so uber considering everyone still gets to do actions but lose the ability to go where they all want to be and that every attacks made against them would count as area attacks affecting them all. One person doesn't control your actions but spirit management doesn't have to be managed by one person. I thought that would prevent having everyone supply a bunch of defensive spirit uses on the main robot or something like that. Its just a draft. Very open to improvement.

Yeah, plus it goes completely bonkers with leadership in that you only need one "main" guy and then an army of 1st level pilots to sky-rocket your stuff. Combining robot just doesn't work if only one of the pilot really matters and the rest are just fodder to stack up on top.
Not at all since you cannot invest more upgrade points in an ability that your level+1. If it takes one point per mecha able to combine, then the 1st level pilots cannot invest enough to join in.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2013, 08:07:42 PM »
Who cares about the upgrades?
Quote
The merged mecha would be the size of the biggest mecha +1 per additional mecha.
...
The base stats of the merge robot are that of the highest level robot +2 super pilot level per participating mecha.

There. Get 10 1st level minions. You grow 10 size categories and count as +20 super pilot level. And probably more spirit points than you can spend. 3-5 members team will always be defeated by general Zorgon and his mook horde.

Ah, I think I understand.

However, question: would it be possible to start with a Super Pilot for, say, five levels, then multiclass into the combining class as the 'leader'? The other mecha would be several levels behind, but the leader's would be a bit tougher.
No multiclassing rules at start, this will already be complicated enough by itself.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 08:09:28 PM by oslecamo »

Online Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #88 on: May 01, 2013, 08:09:14 PM »
Points to get 50% Energy Regen: 10 (also, the Super Robot Upgrade List needs to be fixed, the maths is still working out as if there was a fifth)
40% HP Regen: 10
Agility/Targeter/Plating/Mighty/Battery Maxed: Level+1

Points by level 3: 12. Two robots to supply regeneration, and one with, say, flight. The other takes one of the weapon upgrades. Two more spend four points each on agility/targeter/plating/battery, etc. At level 3, you have maxed HP, AC, energy, energy regen, HP regen, DR, speed, and flight. Now, the big expenditures for half your robots are out of the way, so you can have them choose weapon upgrades, or transformations, etc.

Hell, the bigger problem is that you run out of upgrade choices by about level 8 and have a perpetually maxed robot. With, as pointed out, high base stats as well.
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Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #89 on: May 01, 2013, 08:15:14 PM »
What?
The +2 base stats would only grant it:

HP: +20
DR: +2
Save bonus: +2/3 super
Energy:+20

The first level minions won't have enough upgrade points to have their mecha merge to begin with.

If everyone gets their upgrades only to avoid overlapping then they will be at a disadvantage when they aren't merged. They would keep their own stats while merged too, so they might still want to get plating and more energy and so on.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 08:18:28 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #90 on: May 01, 2013, 09:09:12 PM »
Had almost forgoten this.
Also
Note: Mecha Mooks as PCs

This class is intended for NPC enemies, but it should be fine for a player to use it, as long as they're fine playing with 5 characters that can just perform basic attacks, whitout spirits/maneuvers or anything else but basic attacks, plus a lot of dead levels.
Well depending on how you handle multiclassing...

Added custom feat to the Mecha Pilot. Combined Robot is now a multiclass Mecha Mook/Super Robot. Still need to work a custom school but the basics are now there.

Online Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #91 on: May 03, 2013, 05:04:47 AM »
Reduced Stats = 9/5 = 1.8 = 2? Are they getting the full upgrade (10 per level) to HP spread over five robots?

Mildly concerned that the individual mecha will be useless, and the final combined robot inferior to an actual super (since it eats through all of its energy in two or three rounds, is multiclassed by default, cannot take any upgrade which costs more than 1 upgrade point, and you've stated that they only use the best AC, which means that if one has all the plating (does the HP bonus from that get cut to +1?) and one has agility, they won't stack. Hm.

On the other hand, because DR isn't cut into a fifth and stacks, a Mecha Mook 5/Super Robot 15 team can cheerfully have DR 140/-.

I also observe a minor downside with the current 1/5 of storage space per robot in the Mecha Mook class: there are only four robots with enough storage space to actually equip accessories (and they only have access to four weapons and some of the special weapons--if their storage space is 100 to start with). For instance, only two of the starting robots Arsenals will actually fit anything when cut into a fifth (and at that point, you have a choice between a knife and a machine gun for one of them). The Tier III's will fit those weapons and an accessory, but no Tier IV Real Robot's arsenal, divided by five, will fit much of anything (Energy Taker, Steel Knife, Machine Gun, G-Revolver--that's all).

Given that Real Robots already have plenty of inbuilt weaponry, maybe it would be better to make it a flat '1 accessory'/Storage Space 25 thing? Because with the storage sizes available, you get the majority of your options available by level 4.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 05:16:18 AM by Raineh Daze »
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #92 on: May 03, 2013, 08:27:53 PM »
Changed the combining rules a bit. They now gain full multiclass HP but it is spread over the 5 members (+2 to 4 and +1 to the last for the total of 9).

The combined robot also gains an extra 5 upgrade points that apply only while transformed, and clarified that you get both the best Natural Armor and Dodge from the combining members, but removed the DR stacking.

Mass Produced Models being unable to pick most acessories is intended. I actually created the Refined Armament so they had something to pick up. Added some new acessories and weapons with low arsenal cost tough.

Online Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #93 on: May 03, 2013, 08:39:30 PM »
Looks good (though cartridges + something like the G-Impact Stake or the Alteisen Reise's Claymore Avalanache seems liable to cause problems)

Do the Mecha Mooks get the full d12 Super Pilot HP?

And finally... you should probably add a clause to the combining rules that negates Promotion, 'cause that really wouldn't work. :lmao

I am now imagining a Mecha Mook 20/Super Pilot 4 team. @_@

EDIT: Can't help but think that ships are currently more bland than even straight Mecha Mook. There's absolutely no choices invested in them aside from size, which is kind of... odd. You'd think there would be amenities of some sort or something (not entirely sure about the fact that everything is apparently the Yamato :p)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 08:46:00 PM by Raineh Daze »
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #94 on: May 04, 2013, 03:56:38 PM »
Looks good (though cartridges + something like the G-Impact Stake or the Alteisen Reise's Claymore Avalanache seems liable to cause problems)

Do the Mecha Mooks get the full d12 Super Pilot HP?

And finally... you should probably add a clause to the combining rules that negates Promotion, 'cause that really wouldn't work. :lmao
Reduced to mecha mook HD and skill points, also put clause against Promotion.

I am now imagining a Mecha Mook 20/Super Pilot 4 team. @_@

EDIT: Can't help but think that ships are currently more bland than even straight Mecha Mook. There's absolutely no choices invested in them aside from size, which is kind of... odd. You'd think there would be amenities of some sort or something (not entirely sure about the fact that everything is apparently the Yamato :p)
That's for what multiclassing is for, go Super Robot if you want fancy battleships.

Pure Ship Captain is more about leading and supporting your troops than piloting a combat machine yourself.

Also, in SRW the battleships are indeed very standardized, always with some variant of "anti air batteries, big ass cannons, then smaller cannons/missiles".
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 03:58:24 PM by oslecamo »

Online Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #95 on: May 04, 2013, 04:08:20 PM »
I... cannot actually find any rules regarding multiclassing between Ship Captain and Super Pilot. Wait... they're in the Ship Captain section? Rather than the Super Robot list with the Real Robot/Super Robot multiclass rules? :huh

... because SRW has all its ships be the same, all ships in this must be pretty much the same or start digging into a list of Super Pilot upgrades? I... what? :???

EDIT: A multiclass ship/super robot gets less HP than a straight super robot. Despite ships getting more. Also less energy, despite their having the same beforehand. And automatically gains a humanoid form. I must state that this is making less and less sense. Transforming, maybe, but worse health? :|

... also, for taking the full 20 levels in ship captain, you get... a 10th level cohort and one more maneuver. Um... is there any conceivable way that this level  is worth it?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 04:21:00 PM by Raineh Daze »
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #96 on: May 04, 2013, 05:36:02 PM »
I... cannot actually find any rules regarding multiclassing between Ship Captain and Super Pilot. Wait... they're in the Ship Captain section? Rather than the Super Robot list with the Real Robot/Super Robot multiclass rules? :huh
I get it, I get it, I have to figure out a better overall organization for this.

... because SRW has all its ships be the same, all ships in this must be pretty much the same or start digging into a list of Super Pilot upgrades? I... what? :???
This is Super ROBOT Wars d20. Mechas are suposed to be the main weapons of war, ships play a support role.  Or you play a ship-robot hybrid.

Also, what else would you sugest? I already have the upgrade list for super robot and fixed lists for real robots.

EDIT: A multiclass ship/super robot gets less HP than a straight super robot. Despite ships getting more. Also less energy, despite their having the same beforehand. And automatically gains a humanoid form. I must state that this is making less and less sense. Transforming, maybe, but worse health? :|
Fluff-all of those moving parts in such a big structure aren't exactly stable.

Crunch-Don't want for a single ship captain dip to produce a straight out better super robot than what the super pilot gets.

... also, for taking the full 20 levels in ship captain, you get... a 10th level cohort and one more maneuver. Um... is there any conceivable way that this level  is worth it?
Said 10th level cohort gives you 3 more spirits and 70 spare spirit points. Even more if you have her invest in spirit-boosting feats.

Which reminds me, gonna have to put a clause in relationship feats to prevent you from loving/friending/rivaling your own officers. :P
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 05:37:58 PM by oslecamo »

Online Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #97 on: May 04, 2013, 06:10:57 PM »
Internal stuff? You start with all the basics (and I find the Custom Ship fluff amusing given that you've already been carrying all the accessories for three levels for Real Pilots) but there's got to be some stuff that can be added. Somewhere to get non-mecha items. Library. Faster loading/offloading of mecha. Medical bay. Something to enable changing HDxSuper Robot upgrade points for a cost or something.

Super Pilot: bonus upgrade points. Real Pilot: sudden accessory. Ship Captain: "Don't I already have two of you? Go serve food in the cafeteria or something until we're all dead." Not, exactly, a distinctive upgrade. You also ruined the nice pattern you had going (since you get a bonus feat level 18 instead of 4th Officer). Something to improve your leader aura for a brief duration? If you put all your bonus feats into it, you get a 25 foot range aura. In something built to hang around at the back of the battlefield. But to actually use much of your support stuff, you need to be near them... thereby putting your giant target right where people can hit it. Hmm.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2013, 07:24:43 PM »
Internal stuff? You start with all the basics (and I find the Custom Ship fluff amusing given that you've already been carrying all the accessories for three levels for Real Pilots) but there's got to be some stuff that can be added. Somewhere to get non-mecha items. Library. Faster loading/offloading of mecha. Medical bay. Something to enable changing HDxSuper Robot upgrade points for a cost or something.
Added a bunch of captain-only feats based on that, thanks for the ideas!

Super Pilot: bonus upgrade points. Real Pilot: sudden accessory. Ship Captain: "Don't I already have two of you? Go serve food in the cafeteria or something until we're all dead." Not, exactly, a distinctive upgrade. You also ruined the nice pattern you had going (since you get a bonus feat level 18 instead of 4th Officer). Something to improve your leader aura for a brief duration? If you put all your bonus feats into it, you get a 25 foot range aura. In something built to hang around at the back of the battlefield. But to actually use much of your support stuff, you need to be near them... thereby putting your giant target right where people can hit it. Hmm.

For the record, Ships Full of Hope has the Great Commander stance that can considerably increase your aura.

4th officer replaced by Legendary Leader capstone nonthless.


4th officer replaced by new Legendary Leader capstone.

Online ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #99 on: May 05, 2013, 11:22:56 PM »
Quote
Stealth:The mecha can hide with out actually having anything to hide behind, even in the middle of the sky or the empty space.

Can this basically be taken to mean that it works as the Hide in Plain Sight feature?

Even I forgot I had asked this question and never got an answer  :tongue