Author Topic: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement  (Read 2222 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« on: October 18, 2012, 06:30:08 PM »
One possible interpretation of the Multiclassing penalty
is a +20% penalty per each class causing the penalty.

So a build Class a 2 / Classes b c d e f 1 each / Class a +1
would get a 20% penalty for the 5 classes = 100% penalty =
no more advancement.  Could add the racial Favored class
at 3 levels, and it'd still happen.

This is fairly close to the E6 or E8 neighborhood of builds.
Fighter 3 / 1 level of 5 single classes = terminal , or
RaceFave 3 / Fighter 3 / 1 level of 5 singles = terminal

And maybe even viable, with enough C.O. cheese?
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2012, 07:24:41 PM »
PHB60 "for each class that is not within one level of his or her highest-level class."

Wow you are right. It even says so explicitly: "If he thereafter rose to 13th level and picked up a fourth class (by adding a 1st-level cleric, for example), he would take a -40%XP penalty from then on."

Offline Wyvernhand

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2012, 08:24:20 PM »
Back in Living Greyhawk, I knew a couple of players that designed their characters to "cap out" at level 15.  If you gained enough XP to level to 16, you had to retire your character from play.  He could then continue to play his character at APL 16 and gain ridiculous amounts of gold without having to retire.  Lots of other people did similar things like crafting a Thought Bottle, then passing it around campfire style for everyone to take a hit off of so that they got 500 XP less per mod to get ahead of the wealth/level curve.

Not really applicable in a normal game, but due to LG's modular format, it was kinda abusive.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2012, 03:32:44 PM »
Heh.

I mean, they probably intended it to be a +20% more expensive to
overall experience cumulative penalty.  So a 100% penalty would just
mean it takes double the experience points to level.  And in any case,
you'd fall behind levels, and switch over to the Experience Is A River
details fairly soon.  Once you were 2 levels down the 100% penalty
and the Double exp would cancel each other out.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 03:43:31 PM »
Once you were 2 levels down the 100% penalty
and the Double exp would cancel each other out.
:lmao I'd never thought of that!
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 04:21:02 PM »
hmm ... so even if this was R.A.I. , it still overall wouldn't do that much.

As in: the normal multiclass penalties are not much of a problem at all.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 05:47:01 PM »
hmm ... so even if this was R.A.I. , it still overall wouldn't do that much.

As in: the normal multiclass penalties are not much of a problem at all.

Unless you consider being 2 levels behind the rest of the party a "problem."  XP is a River only applies when you're gaining XP faster than the party is.  If you have to stay 2 levels behind the party in order to gain the same XP as them, you aren't really using XP is a River.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2012, 03:07:51 PM »
I see your point. 
It's more a reaching back to break even, if the -2 levels is worth it.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 07:52:50 PM »
Once you were 2 levels down the 100% penalty
and the Double exp would cancel each other out.
:lmao I'd never thought of that!

Along these lines ... if  you had just 1 multiclass penalty class
you'd effectively go up (1/1.2)=.83*exp until you were down the
level, then you'd get 1.5*.83= 1.25*exp for a while.  You'd still lose
a level over a long time, but it would never get worse than that.

If you had 3 multiclass penalties, the 1.6 vs 1.5 ratio is a
short term quick loser.  You'd fall behind the 1 level, but
then bobble along just fine.
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Offline Wyvernhand

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2012, 03:18:35 PM »
The best way to deal with multiclass penalties is to pretend that they never existed in the first place.  They don't prevent silly things like Cleric2/Monk2/Fighter2/Wizard2/Ninja2/Barbarian2/Bard2/Marshall2/Rogue2/Paladin2, which are silly and make no sense, but they do punish stylish synergistic builds like most Swift Hunter or Daring Outlaw builds which blend 2 thematically similar classes, generally in an X4/Y16 blend.

I didn't like 1e non-human level caps back then and I don't like multiclass caps now.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2012, 07:14:00 PM »
The best way to deal with multiclass penalties is to pretend that they never existed in the first place.

I didn't like 1e non-human level caps back then and I don't like multiclass caps now.
Sure.  I think that's generally the way both were dealt with.


I ~guess I'm going at it, like later go-go C.O.
versus rather untouched basic stuff.
I can imagine a 1 or 2 level penalty is way
too much for almost all multiclass biffs.

Heck, a terminal build could visit a magic mart,
and what would be the problem then ...  ;)
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Offline Wyvernhand

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2012, 08:06:44 PM »
If multiclassing made you exclusively stronger, then yes, a penalty might be worthwhile.  But it doesn't.  You still GENERALLY get bigger and better class features for sticking with a class.  Sure, you might get some short term rewards such as dipping Fighter2 for 2 feats to complete your Tactical feat tree by level 6, but it delays something else that might be cool, like Greater Rage or something.  There are plenty of opportunity costs involved with character building, and adding the extra beating that is multiclass penalties is just injury to insult.

Plus, I hate to always bring it back to casters/non-casters, but multiclassing is generally a customization tool for non-casters.  All you care about are HP, skill points, and BAB, which ALL classes have in varying degrees.  Then its just a matter of duct taping the ones with the features you want together and forming a build.  With casters, the only thing that is important is MOAR CASTER LEVELS, in 9/10 cases.  Thus, full casting PrCs are generally saught after, which DON'T have multiclass penalties due to their nature as PrCs.  Adding levels of Cleric to your Wizard build is a direct nerf in most cases because Cleric levels don't progress Wizard casting.  Adding levels of Barbarian (especially Spirit Lion Whirling Frenzy Barbarian) to a Fighter build will make you a better Fighter because it gives you BAB, HP, and skill points, along with whatever other toys are important to you.  Adding a Wizard dip, however, is generally less useful because it doesn't give you BAB, it doesn't give you much in the way of HP, and you generally can't utilize much of the spells with your armor and weapons in the way (other than maybe True Strike, but thats not action economic).

Spells are how casters customize.  Multiclassing is how non-casters customize.  Multiclass penalties only really hurt non-casters.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2017, 04:37:23 PM »
Hey ... Iron Chef did something applicable, using Thrall Of Demogorgon.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?536247-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXIX


Here's an as-generic-as-possible version :  Mary Mary Multi- Contrary

Race almost any, except races with "Any" as their Favored Class.
Classes again almost any, except for a race's Favored Class.
Build starts---> Paladin Of Wtf 2 / Barb* 1 / Bard 1 / Cleric 1 / Druid 1 / Fighter 1 / Gray Guard prc 1
Details, pally will change for Demo, Gray Guard necessary too for (m-)(align-)mental slipperyness. 
Barb* can be any base class, as can any of the other 4 base classes.
Minor attention to the Know skill pre-req, into Thrall Of Demogorgon 8, then a 3rd level of Paladin.
Here's where the "magic" kicks in.  The 5 base multi's would impose a collective 100% penalty.
Normally the PC would be frozen their advancement, and forevermore. TOD 8 gets around that. 
Finish with Blackguard 1+ and/or a PAO for the 2-Headed Template and/or TOD 9 and 10.
Demo will love you and squeeze you and call you his (?) own.
Alignment is a fishy transition but so what, it's Demo we're dealing with.
Here's my "feelings" on the pally alignment nonsense ---> http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=17664.msg316046#msg316046

Overall the build stays down at the bottom of Tier 5, while inverto-exploiting the stupidest
and most ignored rule in the PHB.  It can be entirely Core on the lead up to TOD and after.
There are approximately 10 Billion combos of base classes available. 
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Offline linklord231

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2017, 02:37:20 AM »
What happens if you have 6 classes' worth of XP penalties, giving you a -120% XP penalty?  Would you go down in level by completing quests? 

Quote from: PHB 60
Uneven Levels: If any two of your multiclass character’s classes
are two or more levels apart, the strain of developing and
maintaining different skills at different levels takes its toll. Your
multiclass character suffers a –20% penalty to XP for each class that
is not within one level of his or her highest-level class. These
penalties apply from the moment the character adds a class or raises
a class’s level too high. For instance, a 4th-level wizard/3rd-level
rogue gets no penalty, but if that character raises his wizard level to
5th, then he takes the –20% penalty from that point on until his
levels were nearly even again.

...

Suppose he then attains 12th level and adds 1st level as fighter to his
classes, becoming a 9th-level rogue/2nd-level illusionist/1st-level fighter.
He then takes a –20% XP penalty on future XP he earns because his
fighter level is so much lower than his rogue level. Were he awarded
1,200 XP for an adventure, he would receive only 80% of that
amount, or 960 XP.
If he thereafter rose to 13th level and picked up
a fourth class (by adding 1st-level cleric, for example), he would take
a –40% XP penalty from then on.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2017, 04:23:40 PM »
Oh that's rich !!

6 base classes 1 / base #7 goes to 3 = 120% penalty

it's Benjamin Button for a level
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2017, 06:34:39 PM »
What happens if you have 6 classes' worth of XP penalties, giving you a -120% XP penalty?  Would you go down in level by completing quests?
Well XP rewards don't have a minimum 0 clause that I know of, so you do kind of hit an area that needs a DM ruling to cover certain things too, like if it's even possible to delevel from this.

Favored Classes is one of those great topics to discuss. It requires adults with rational minds to handle it so the forums are totally out but while you lay awake in bed at night you can consider the forum stance of ignoring Racial based PrC requirements and Favored Class rules. Did it stem from D&D's societal trend of ignoring anything that displeases/nerfs something they have assembled? The bleeding heart bullshit of liberals? True forgetfulness and unfamiliarity? Perhaps a non-black and white answer that is some kind of mix of all of those and more? And if D&D would made in the present day, would it have XP penalties? (5th don't), so is the correct thinking that Races are different is a remnant of a bygone era? SorO thinks that thinking Races are different (in real too) is "correct", how badly has your SJW button been pushed? Just how much have you been brainwashed blue anyway? And where are you head phones so you can listen to music instead of thinking about things like this. Oh crap, did you set the alarm?
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2017, 05:59:12 PM »
I've never seen anyone ignore racial based PrC requirements.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2017, 06:12:10 PM »
hmm, I'm not sure at this point why the RaceFave class would
have to be 3 instead of 1 in the o.p.  I'd have to re-read up on it.
Maybe I was crossing the streams with the XPH double faves.
idk

But yeah this later one, is specifically not as easy using a RaceFave.
Anecdotally racefaves do get some mention both for and against.
4e ditched most of it, as did 5e, but retained the idea in other ways.


16 classes 1 level each / 'nother class 3 = massive penalty
I think it'd effectively rebuild most of the way down to level 7
but maybe not get there, because of the massive exp boost
from the rest of the party.  Funky maths happening this far out.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2018, 11:36:56 PM »
What happens if you have 6 classes' worth of XP penalties, giving you a -120% XP penalty?  Would you go down in level by completing quests?
Getting there is non-trivial.

I had a thread on weaponizing XP penalties to do something similar. It relied on a mathematical interpretation of when negative numbers must be used. People didn't take it well, because, you know. Grey area and all that. I still consider it a valid interpreation of RAW, even if its unlikely to see play.

But even if you do get a DM to allow it, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. You're better off optimizing a core wizard or whatever; you'll pwn campaigns even harder and avoid all the bad feelings.

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Multiclassing Penalty = 1e style terminal advancement
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2018, 01:50:50 AM »
I've never seen anyone ignore racial based PrC requirements.

Tell that to the Shadowcraft Mage. Poor gnomes finally got ONE really nice PrC and the book even suggests how to houserule an exception to it.
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