Author Topic: Fun with [s]baleful polymorph[/s] Aspect of the wolf (old news apparently)  (Read 6590 times)

Offline Chemus

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1929
    • View Profile
As I mentioned here, using baleful polymorph in conjunction with awaken turns any coherent corporeal non-plant, non-ooze creature with a constitution score (baleful polymorph's only immunities are incorporeal and gaseous creatures. Shapechanger subtype is affected, but can change back to themselves at any time) into a magical beast. Since awaken is instantaneous, this change is not easily able to be canceled or removed. Baleful polymorph affects everything that is not immune to magic or polymorph effects, making their type animal, and awaken turns them instantaneously into Magical Beast (Augmented Animal). Awaken doesn't reference subtype, and this is YBIYBI, so I'm unclear if you retain any you had before awaken or regain your subtypes once the baleful polymorph goes away. The most likely thing I see is that you retain the shapechanger subtype, but what about aquatic animals?

Some of the effects that I see:
    • With repeated use, you can get an 18 Int and an arbitrarily high Cha. As well you gain 2 Magical Beast HD per cycle. Get a Wight as a pet, and you get to spend the XP from the highest HD on casting/crafting, and then the wight (or whatever) can eat the HD for you.
    • With one cycle of casting, even humanoids can qualify for the Soul Eater PrC (BoVD p66). Keeping the animal form from baleful polymorph for the natural weapon (For the weapon focus Nat Weapon requirement) might be a problem, but if you can get a natural weapon otherwise (Caelic's Boogeyman does this very nicley), you get to eat souls by 6th level and have a wight army by 14th.
    • You can take the Emancipated Spawn PrC (SS p75) multiple times. (Actually only baleful polymorph is required for that)...or maybe not; Animals and Magical Beasts can be undead, but they may be precluded from many of the good spawn-producing undead. This will take research, and I'm too lazy right now. Baleful polymorph is not useful, so this line is no longer part of the trick here.

What'd I miss?

Edit1: Fixed where littha showed me I was wrong. I think that the ooze and plant rules need to be clearer, but it might stick.
Edit2: Fixed where I figured out that polymorph was valid for the E-Spawn. It's not really part of this trick now.
Edit3: Scrap almost all of the above (Thanks littha, nijineko, sirpercival):

Aspect of the wolf (SpC) is 1st level, lasts 10mins/level (get as an Ioun Stone for ohh 6000gp (Sp lv 1 x CL 1 x 1.5 for dur x 2 for slotless x 2000 for continuous). Then you can use awaken on anything. Even constructs or undead or oozes or plants (or sloths, orangutangs, breakfast cereals), since it's not a polymorph effect at all.

Just have to make a faster cheaper way to cast a Maximized, Empowered awaken...
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 01:35:03 AM by Chemus »
Apathy is ...ah screw it.
My Homebrew

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with baleful polymorph
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 02:27:40 PM »
baleful polymorph's only immunities are incorporeal and gaseous creatures.

Actually, Undead and Constructs are immune from their CON - and Oozes and plants are immune due to their type.

Offline Chemus

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1929
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with baleful polymorph
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 03:14:11 PM »
What if an undead...ah hell! For the Emancipated spawn, it need only use polymorph; it has no save since it's willing target. So its type changes to anything vulnerable to energy drain, and then it can re-spawn ;)

Re-fixing the first post...
Apathy is ...ah screw it.
My Homebrew

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
Re: Fun with baleful polymorph
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 08:12:57 PM »
why not just maximize and empower the awaken? the stat granting portion of the spell is a variable numeric....

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
Re: Fun with baleful polymorph
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2012, 08:59:00 PM »
from the first set of polymorph articles, bolded parts are of interest to you:

(click to show/hide)

it would seem that sub-types are lost... let me check the latest version...

Quote
BALEFUL POLYMORPH
[snip]
• If the target has the shapechanger subtype, it retains
that subtype.
[snip]
With those exceptions, the game statistics of the assumed
form replace the target’s normal ones.

this is taken from the latest official version, that in the rules compendium. it would appear that subtypes are lost.

and thus regained when it wears off.

since awaken targeted the animal stats, and once the polymorph lapses, the original stats replace the polymorphed stats just as the polymorph stats replaced the original stats in the first place, then the awakened stats would likewise be replaced.

Offline Chemus

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1929
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with baleful polymorph
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 09:24:49 PM »
why not just maximize and empower the awaken? the stat granting portion of the spell is a variable numeric....

This is why I post stuff like this; y'all see thing that I'd miss. Egad! 3d6 maximized and empowered is Int 24. Additional Cha points each time through is +4. Still need to drop the HD though.

*snip*

since awaken targeted the animal stats, and once the polymorph lapses, the original stats replace the polymorphed stats just as the polymorph stats replaced the original stats in the first place, then the awakened stats would likewise be replaced.
Are you suggesting that once baleful polymorph goes away, the Int returns to the original creature's Int, the additional Cha goes away and the HD go away? That would kill the trick...but it's possible that it does indeed work that way.
Apathy is ...ah screw it.
My Homebrew

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with baleful polymorph
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 09:40:38 PM »
Why are you bothering with Baleful Polymorph?  When I saw this trick posted a while ago on here, the consensus was that you want to be using Aspect of the Wolf, which in addition to being 1st level and changing your type to animal, is not a Polymorph effect.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Chemus

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1929
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with baleful polymorph
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 09:42:47 PM »
Aha. Good question and one I've asked myself every...well never. Googling aspect of the wolf now.

edit: I guess the only benefit of baleful polymorph is the duration, since the casting time of awaken is 24h.

Honestly I did my due diligence; looking up baleful polymorph plus awaken on the google. I didn't know about the wolf spell. I'll edit the 1st post to fix that stuff. Aspect of the wolf would be better even better than polymorph for Emancipated spawn as well.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 09:52:35 PM by Chemus »
Apathy is ...ah screw it.
My Homebrew

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
Re: Fun with baleful polymorph
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2012, 01:21:28 AM »
and a 1st level spell is a whole lot easier to persist than a much higher one. that would solve the duration issue.

but i don't think that awaken will stick once the aspect spell wears off here either.... plus burning xp for cha... even if the cha gain is maximized and empowered that is still only +4. unless you can convince several groves of druids to all cast it on you simultaneously.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 01:27:57 AM by nijineko »

Offline Mithril Leaf

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 270
    • View Profile
I recall asking something in relation to warbeast on a baleful polymorph a while ago on Giantitp. I'll see if I can dig up the thread as it may be relevant to the discussion at hand.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with baleful polymorph
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2012, 07:19:49 PM »
why not just maximize and empower the awaken? the stat granting portion of the spell is a variable numeric....

This is why I post stuff like this; y'all see thing that I'd miss. Egad! 3d6 maximized and empowered is Int 24.

Nothing wrong with a good re-hash.

I've had the Max+Emp explained as: (max 3d6 = 18) + (non max'd 3d6 / 2).
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Chemus

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1929
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with [s]baleful polymorph[/s] Aspect of the wolf (old news apparently)
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2012, 07:44:52 PM »
I've had the Max+Emp explained as: (max 3d6 = 18) + (non max'd 3d6 / 2).
Hmm. That makes some sense, and that only loses a point of Int. But why can't the caster choose order of application? Is it not still a variable numeric effect after maximize is applied?

Alternately couldn't one add half again as many dice instead?
I'm an idiot.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 07:47:20 PM by Chemus »
Apathy is ...ah screw it.
My Homebrew

Offline Mithril Leaf

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 270
    • View Profile
Re: Fun with [s]baleful polymorph[/s] Aspect of the wolf (old news apparently)
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 06:54:02 PM »
Very old news apparently, found this thread while I was looking for a way to use baleful polymorph on a construct.