Author Topic: Tips for punishing metagaming  (Read 10847 times)

Offline Squirel_Dude

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Tips for punishing metagaming
« on: November 10, 2011, 02:10:40 PM »
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Any tips to punish players metagaming, either as a DM, or as another player?

Ideas come up with so far:
1. Ask the DM to ask their party to make unnecessary spot/sense motive checks. Making the players have suspicions that their characters wouldn't.
2. Um...

Any suggestions?

Offline weenog

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2011, 02:16:02 PM »
Your job isn't to punish players, whether you're another player or the DM.  Not only isn't it your job, at very best it's extremely impolite.

Best tip I can give you is don't.
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
"I doubt she's going to make a DC 111 Fort save, anyway."

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2011, 02:18:47 PM »
Yeah, I find this topic to be a bit weird, too.  I also tend to try and game with people I deem of as adults, so I can just talk to them like grown-ups.

@Spot Checks
I like 4E's idea of a passive check, that's just taking 10 on the check.  I use that if I don't want to tip off my players.  But, mine are pretty good about metagaming -- even if the player knows there's a trap up ahead, they are good sports and blithely blunder into it.  I'd like to take credit, but they make things kind of easy for me. 

Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2011, 02:25:17 PM »
Whenever they start spitting out knowledge about something that they know but their character wouldn't necessarily then ask them how their character knows. I'd even let them roll knowledge checks as needed. Beyond that it depends on what other metagame knowledge they are using. In any case force them to justify why they are acting the way they are or know something they probably shouldn't. Some people will still metagame and come up with excuses quickly, but that will cut it down a lot.

Offline veekie

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2011, 02:29:13 PM »
Its...really weird yeah.

I mean, handling metagaming by players is relatively simple, mix up critter fluff and descriptions, switch a few stats and feats around, give the elements a twirl(i.e. Whole New Monster Stance)...but thats pretty different from the sense I'm getting.
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Offline weenog

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 02:34:34 PM »
There's always taking it in the other direction and encouraging avoidance of metagaming.  The DM of the game I've been playing lately tends to hand out small but significant rewards of XP or trinkets when someone does something embarrassing or harmful because it's what the character would do, player knowledge be damned.  Stuff like hearing an incredibly bad suggestion for a situation the character is on the fence about, opting to just roll a Wis check to decide it, getting a 3, declaring "I think that's a great idea!" and rushing into great risk.
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
"I doubt she's going to make a DC 111 Fort save, anyway."

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 02:37:51 PM »
Its...really weird yeah.

I mean, handling metagaming by players is relatively simple, mix up critter fluff and descriptions, switch a few stats and feats around, give the elements a twirl(i.e. Whole New Monster Stance)...but thats pretty different from the sense I'm getting.

This.  It's really easy to discourage that brand of metagaming.  Refluff stuff, drop misleading out of game "clues", etc.  Punishing it?  That's not going to end well for the group.

Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2011, 02:43:09 PM »
There's always taking it in the other direction and encouraging avoidance of metagaming.  The DM of the game I've been playing lately tends to hand out small but significant rewards of XP or trinkets when someone does something embarrassing or harmful because it's what the character would do, player knowledge be damned.  Stuff like hearing an incredibly bad suggestion for a situation the character is on the fence about, opting to just roll a Wis check to decide it, getting a 3, declaring "I think that's a great idea!" and rushing into great risk.
I wouldn't even say that it has to be detrimental to the character to get it. Most every game i've been in the DM was generous with bonus xp for playing your character. If your character is consistent in how the approach things and if the DM knows how they feel about certain subjects it is far easier to motivate the character and provide interesting hooks for them. It is difficult if the player only sees their character as stats on a page and damage output, if they don't have a personality how is the DM supposed to do anything with them other than make them roll dice.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 02:58:12 PM »
Whenever they start spitting out knowledge about something that they know but their character wouldn't necessarily then ask them how their character knows. I'd even let them roll knowledge checks as needed. Beyond that it depends on what other metagame knowledge they are using. In any case force them to justify why they are acting the way they are or know something they probably shouldn't. Some people will still metagame and come up with excuses quickly, but that will cut it down a lot.
Its...really weird yeah.

I mean, handling metagaming by players is relatively simple, mix up critter fluff and descriptions, switch a few stats and feats around, give the elements a twirl(i.e. Whole New Monster Stance)...but thats pretty different from the sense I'm getting.
These are probably the best two approaches I can think of. Other than that, a certain amount of metagaming is probably good as it shows they're interested in the game.

I mean, if the wizard is debating on casting Web or Blindness and he bases his decision on whether or not he thinks the target has a good Fort or Reflex save, I'm fine with that. So long as he doesn't cheat and look at my notes, I don't care. He's making an educated guess as to whether or not the creature is tougher or faster, and he might even still be wrong.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 03:01:27 PM »
^^
Or he might be lucky. Damn rolling 2s.

Quote
If your character is consistent in how the approach things and if the DM knows how they feel about certain subjects it is far easier to motivate the character and provide interesting hooks for them. It is difficult if the player only sees their character as stats on a page and damage output, if they don't have a personality how is the DM supposed to do anything with them other than make them roll dice.
Indeed, its even hard to give them unique goodies(I like to dish some out after they'd been in the game awhile), since you try to tailor it to them and....can't.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline weenog

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2011, 03:21:37 PM »
There's always taking it in the other direction and encouraging avoidance of metagaming.  The DM of the game I've been playing lately tends to hand out small but significant rewards of XP or trinkets when someone does something embarrassing or harmful because it's what the character would do, player knowledge be damned.  Stuff like hearing an incredibly bad suggestion for a situation the character is on the fence about, opting to just roll a Wis check to decide it, getting a 3, declaring "I think that's a great idea!" and rushing into great risk.
I wouldn't even say that it has to be detrimental to the character to get it. Most every game i've been in the DM was generous with bonus xp for playing your character. If your character is consistent in how the approach things and if the DM knows how they feel about certain subjects it is far easier to motivate the character and provide interesting hooks for them. It is difficult if the player only sees their character as stats on a page and damage output, if they don't have a personality how is the DM supposed to do anything with them other than make them roll dice.

Well no, it doesn't have to be detrimental.  It's just that it's often (not always) the harmful or embarrassing stuff where player knowledge obviously rebels against going through with it, especially when the most knowledgeable player in the group is playing a character best described as "Chaotic Low Wisdom."  But there's been other situations, too.

One example was the wizard and the factotum sneaking into a city (our rep isn't too good there so they had to be subtle) to do some research and buy magic stuff, while the dragonborn dragon shaman, ranger/barbarian/half-orc paragon, and dwarf-bot cleric (turned construct thanks to a low Int moment and an unpredictable magic location) waited outside of town.  Poking some fun at the bizarre-looking group, the DM had some annoying brat pass by shouting "Mommy, mommy, look! The circus is in town!" and rather than taking umbrage at being mocked, the dragon shaman improvised a fire eater performance, the half-orc did a strongwoman routine, and dwarf-bot played himself as a kettle drum.  Nice little crowd gathered.  Then when the nerds got back they boasted "While you guys were screwing around doing nothing useful, we got real jobs and earned FIFTEEN GOLD!"  XP for all three, heh.
"Whoops, forgot to roll my fire and holy damage."
"I doubt she's going to make a DC 111 Fort save, anyway."

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2011, 03:42:43 PM »
If your character is consistent in how the approach things and if the DM knows how they feel about certain subjects it is far easier to motivate the character and provide interesting hooks for them. It is difficult if the player only sees their character as stats on a page and damage output, if they don't have a personality how is the DM supposed to do anything with them other than make them roll dice.
Yeah. From the player's side of the screen, I know that I enjoy playing more if I give my character a decent personality/back story. I've run a few where the PC was thrown together too quickly to make a good story, and it was run pretty much as stats on a page. They end up always having the motivation of MOAR POWER. It gets boring quickly.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2011, 04:20:53 PM »
"While you guys were screwing around doing nothing useful, we got real jobs and earned FIFTEEN GOLD!"  XP for all three, heh.

That's top shelf stuff right there^^

Offline Squirel_Dude

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2011, 04:30:23 PM »
So if I'm reading this correctly:
1. At least make them come up with excuses for why they are using knowledge that their character would never have when they are making a decision
2. Reward players for staying in character
3. Provide red-haring information to players and not to characters


Danke, should be enough to try and limit them, and to teach them about staying in character. And sorry if I sent out the wrong signals with "punish." Manage is more what I meant. The only thing that should die will be that damned cockatrice.

Offline LordBlades

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2011, 04:11:28 AM »
I personally believe some amount of metagaming is extremely hard to avoid. As you gain some experience and insight into the game you start to recognize some monsters and situations although your character wouldn't.

Sometimes it's easy to draw the line. If your Greatsword Warblade meets a Skeleton, there is no justification to draw your backup Greatclub unless you somehow find out in character skeletons are resistant to anything non-bludgeoning.
Other times, it's not so easy. Let's say you are a blaster mage that has 2 favorite spells, one that deals fire damage and one that deals cold damage. You use both pretty often (unless you have a reason to use one instead of the other in a given situation). Now you're up against a red dragon. You (the player_ recognize it as such and know it's immune to fire and vulnerable to cold, but your character doesn't. It would be completely in character for him to cast either spell, but how can you make a decision not based on metagame knowledge without simply rolling a dice?


Offline veekie

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 04:22:08 AM »
Knowledge check, thats what they're for.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2011, 07:08:38 AM »
I personally believe some amount of metagaming is extremely hard to avoid. As you gain some experience and insight into the game you start to recognize some monsters and situations although your character wouldn't.

Sometimes it's easy to draw the line. If your Greatsword Warblade meets a Skeleton, there is no justification to draw your backup Greatclub unless you somehow find out in character skeletons are resistant to anything non-bludgeoning.

Bullshit. Greatswords work by cutting flesh. A skeleton CLEARLY has no flesh to cut. Greatclubs meanwhile work by breaking bones. Clearly, the skeleton has bones.

Quote
Other times, it's not so easy. Let's say you are a blaster mage that has 2 favorite spells, one that deals fire damage and one that deals cold damage. You use both pretty often (unless you have a reason to use one instead of the other in a given situation). Now you're up against a red dragon. You (the player_ recognize it as such and know it's immune to fire and vulnerable to cold, but your character doesn't. It would be completely in character for him to cast either spell, but how can you make a decision not based on metagame knowledge without simply rolling a dice?

This one is a bit more reasonable, but then fire creatures are often colored red, and said fire creatures are immune to fire and weak to ice.

Offline veekie

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2011, 10:01:41 AM »
Well, unless its an opposite day critter like that undead(bleakborn?) with a cold aura that heals from fire.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2011, 10:25:32 AM »
Well, unless its an opposite day critter like that undead(bleakborn?) with a cold aura that heals from fire.

Still, that is the exception rather than the rule. Often elemental weaknesses are moot as damage spells are weak anyways, but if it does come up fire at the blue or white guy and ice at the red guy generally works.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Tips for punishing metagaming
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2011, 10:54:17 AM »
I personally believe some amount of metagaming is extremely hard to avoid. As you gain some experience and insight into the game you start to recognize some monsters and situations although your character wouldn't.

Sometimes it's easy to draw the line. If your Greatsword Warblade meets a Skeleton, there is no justification to draw your backup Greatclub unless you somehow find out in character skeletons are resistant to anything non-bludgeoning.

Bullshit. Greatswords work by cutting flesh. A skeleton CLEARLY has no flesh to cut. Greatclubs meanwhile work by breaking bones. Clearly, the skeleton has bones.
This.

Most of the weird resistances/immunities monsters pick up are for a reason. Sometimes, simple observation can point you in the right direction. It would be a different story if you ran into something that looked like an elf with red skin and purple eyes and happened to have DR 5/bludgeoning or something, but that's obviously quite different. There's a disconnect between the description and that resistance.
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