Author Topic: The Enabler  (Read 26010 times)

Offline aardnebby

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2012, 05:25:19 AM »
SRD says a 9th level spell costs 90gp x caster level. However:
 1. See spell description for additional costs. If the additional costsput the spell’s totalcost above 3,000 gp, that spell is notgenerally available.

The xp = 5gp each exceeds 3k sadly

Sure, it'd be what the temple has available and don't forget that juicy discount.
So let's go with 30 000 gp, and then the discount <= 3000 gp total cost.

Ok. But the base cost of the wish is (5000 xp = 25000gp) + (17 x 90g) total = 26610 gp, So its not gonna be a costly item. However you CAN pay them to wish for Innate bonuses to ability scores, or, you know, non magical wealth of up to 25000gp for only 2661gp!

Offline Halinn

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2012, 12:11:13 PM »
But this whole thing seems like a huge sidetrack... /sigh. Can we just assume that, for the sake of argument, that somewhere, somehow, you can find a dude willing to sell you a Wish? If so, then you can Wish for magic items for half the market cost. That seems like a major rules-hole, and I'm amazed that I'd never heard anyone point it out before this thread... Anyone else amazed?
Not me, because by that reading it means the the biggest minds in the setting are nothing but submissive bitches that will appear as soon as you call them and gladly lick your feet for a few gold.
Biggest minds? In Sigil, that 17th level wizard is just barely a passable apprentice to the 6345713451th level Wizard/Cleric

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2012, 04:03:06 PM »
Sigil ought to qualify as a Planar Metropolis.

Planar Metropolis gets a +12 level adjustment
to the highest ranked NPCs, and it's uncapped.

Potentially a Commoner 28 and/or Expert 24,
either or both with Leadership,
opens a level ~26 anything and/or level ~22.
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Offline Bauglir

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2012, 06:18:11 PM »
Quote from: DMG 138
For PC classes, if the highest-level character indicated is 2nd level or higher, assume the community has twice that number of characters of half that level. If those characters are higher than 1st level, assume that for each such character, the community has two of half that level. Continue until the number of 1st-level characters is generated.

Quote from: DMG page 147
no gp limit applies when buying or selling goods in the City of Doors, and NPCs of any class and level combination can be found there.

So, trivially, there are infinite inhabitants of Sigil of each level.

We know that with each level you decrease, you double the number of characters you have. Another way of saying that is that with each level you increase, you halve the total number of characters of a given level. That is to say, you have half as many characters of each level as the previous sentence. If you were to start with, say, half your population, then one quarter of it would be 1 level higher, and one eighth would be 1 level higher than that and... hang on, this looks awfully familiar. This is a well-known series which can be represented by a function:

Proportion of the population by level: 2^(-x), for all x > 1, where x = the level in question.
1/2 of Sigil's infinite population is 1st level by this rule.

Intuitively, I feel like the rapidly increasing variety of possible builds at a given level is going to interact in some way with the decreasing proportion of the population that is allowed to be that level. I want to say that at some sufficiently high level X, the number of possible builds exceeds the number of possible NPCs, so that you're likelier to encounter higher level NPCs than lower (breaking the previous rule, because Sigil has special rules for NPC generation), but on the other hand I know that there are infinite NPCs of each level and I'm not sure how to get that infinity to go away (or if it's possible). It might just be that you have mandatory variety at higher levels (an ever smaller, but still infinite, proportion of the population at that level has levels that match those of another character of that level). I was working on something with an assumption of no PrCs, to simplify things since prereqs are all but impossible to deal with en masse, but got nowhere and really need to get back to studying.

EDIT: Oooh, when I get done with this lecture, I'm gonna see if I can work out the distribution of Sigil's infinite wealth.

EDIT: Okay, so, Sigil obviously has infinite wealth. Since we're talking about NPCs, I'm using their wealth table. Spoilered for large amounts of (possibly wrong and definitely badly presented) math.
(click to show/hide)

So, for instance, 21st level characters control 9(.55^21)/11, or about .0003% of Sigil's total wealth, while 1st level characters control about 35% of it. Therefore, we can safely conclude that the Lady of Pain, charismatic leader that she may be, ultimately has no financial control over the city, because no matter how high her CR gets, she'll never have treasure comparable to the combined resources of the city's 1st level characters. Nevertheless, she's still an effective dictator obeyed by everyone in the city (whose wealth is controlled largely by the proletariat), who happens to dress in red and frequently purges the city of "undesirable" elements and wields power beyond opposition.

Sigil is a communist utopia.

EDIT: More on the Lady of Pain. She occupies an interesting position, because she is explicitly the most powerful creature in a city with arbitrarily powerful creatures. She is a mathematical impossibility - the level infinity character, and her statistics are appropriately undefined, though we can safely assume her to have every level (including racial hit dice, and so on, through various shenanigans that I'm sure are possible via creative application of level draining and such). Her effective omnipotence also suggests that she has more at her disposal than simply having infinite levels, that is to say, the ability to define new abilities for herself. Not even epic spellcasting has this degree of versatility. Thus, I propose that we have enough information to deduce the Lady of Pain's true nature, and her origin.

What other creature do we know possesses infinite levels? What other creature can grant itself new abilities, even ones that don't exist in the game? What other creature is, necessarily, the most powerful character?

That's right. The Lady of Pain began her life as a Kobold native to Toril.

EDIT: Now, it's known that the Lady of Pain was always in Sigil, and Sigil was always there. How, then, can she have an origin as a humble kobold, which must necessarily have been after she was known to exist? Teleport through Time. Essentially, the whole Sarrukh thing is only a formality, if one which she undoubtedly ensures through her various agents and superpowers, even if she never personally leaves Sigil. The Lady of Pain was already there*. She would also ensure that no other kobold ever carried out the ascension - one might hypothesize infinitely many Ladies Teleporting through Time to arrive at the beginning of the multiverse from infinite possible futures, of which only the known Lady of Pain survived and ensured that the others would never be. This is baseless speculation, however.

*Corollary: The Lady of Pain is Lord English.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 01:09:11 PM by Bauglir »

Offline Amechra

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2012, 08:39:11 PM »
Quote from: DMG 138
For PC classes, if the highest-level character indicated is 2nd level or higher, assume the community has twice that number of characters of half that level. If those characters are higher than 1st level, assume that for each such character, the community has two of half that level. Continue until the number of 1st-level characters is generated.

Quote from: DMG page 147
no gp limit applies when buying or selling goods in the City of Doors, and NPCs of any class and level combination can be found there.

So, trivially, there are infinite inhabitants of Sigil of each level.

We know that with each level you decrease, you double the number of characters you have. Another way of saying that is that with each level you increase, you halve the total number of characters of a given level. That is to say, you have half as many characters of each level as the previous sentence. If you were to start with, say, half your population, then one quarter of it would be 1 level higher, and one eighth would be 1 level higher than that and... hang on, this looks awfully familiar. This is a well-known series which can be represented by a function:

Proportion of the population by level: 2^(-x), for all x > 1, where x = the level in question.
1/2 of Sigil's infinite population is 1st level by this rule.

Intuitively, I feel like the rapidly increasing variety of possible builds at a given level is going to interact in some way with the decreasing proportion of the population that is allowed to be that level. I want to say that at some sufficiently high level X, the number of possible builds exceeds the number of possible NPCs, so that you're likelier to encounter higher level NPCs than lower (breaking the previous rule, because Sigil has special rules for NPC generation), but on the other hand I know that there are infinite NPCs of each level and I'm not sure how to get that infinity to go away (or if it's possible). It might just be that you have mandatory variety at higher levels (an ever smaller, but still infinite, proportion of the population at that level has levels that match those of another character of that level). I was working on something with an assumption of no PrCs, to simplify things since prereqs are all but impossible to deal with en masse, but got nowhere and really need to get back to studying.

EDIT: Oooh, when I get done with this lecture, I'm gonna see if I can work out the distribution of Sigil's infinite wealth.

EDIT: Okay, so, Sigil obviously has infinite wealth. Since we're talking about NPCs, I'm using their wealth table. Spoilered for large amounts of (possibly wrong and definitely badly presented) math.
(click to show/hide)

So, for instance, 21st level characters control 9(.55^21)/11, or about .0003% of Sigil's total wealth, while 1st level characters control about 35% of it. Therefore, we can safely conclude that the Lady of Pain, charismatic leader that she may be, ultimately has no financial control over the city, because no matter how high her CR gets, she'll never have treasure comparable to the combined resources of the city's 1st level characters. Nevertheless, she's still an effective dictator obeyed by everyone in the city (whose wealth is controlled largely by the proletariat), who happens to dress in red and frequently purges the city of "undesirable" elements and wields power beyond opposition.

Sigil is a communist utopia.

EDIT: More on the Lady of Pain. She occupies an interesting position, because she is explicitly the most powerful creature in a city with arbitrarily powerful creatures. She is a mathematical impossibility - the level infinity character, and her statistics are appropriately undefined, though we can safely assume her to have every level (including racial hit dice, and so on, through various shenanigans that I'm sure are possible via creative application of level draining and such). Her effective omnipotence also suggests that she has more at her disposal than simply having infinite levels, that is to say, the ability to define new abilities for herself. Not even epic spellcasting has this degree of versatility. Thus, I propose that we have enough information to deduce the Lady of Pain's true nature, and her origin.

What other creature do we know possesses infinite levels? What other creature can grant itself new abilities, even ones that don't exist in the game? What other creature is, necessarily, the most powerful character?

That's right. The Lady of Pain began her life as a Kobold native to Toril.

EDIT: Now, it's known that the Lady of Pain was always in Sigil, and Sigil was always there. How, then, can she have an origin as a humble kobold, which must necessarily have been after she was known to exist? Teleport through Time. Essentially, the whole Sarrukh thing is only a formality, if one which she undoubtedly ensures through her various agents and superpowers, even if she never personally leaves Sigil. The Lady of Pain was already there*. She would also ensure that no other kobold ever carried out the ascension - one might hypothesize infinitely many Ladies Teleporting through Time to arrive at the beginning of the multiverse from infinite possible futures, of which only the known Lady of Pain survived and ensured that the others would never be. This is baseless speculation, however.

*Corollary: The Lady of Pain is Lord English.

Brilliant; I wish I knew more statistics, or I could check your math.
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Offline Halinn

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2012, 12:03:20 AM »
We've only arrived at Pun-Pun's level being nigh infinite, not truly infinite. He's still infinitely powerful, though (truly infinite ability scores, caster level etc, as well as total and complete invulnerability tends to do that).
Also, due to infinite profession check, Pun-Pun has his own infinite hoard of gold, aside from what's owned by the various citizens of Sigil.

Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2012, 02:15:07 AM »
We've only arrived at Pun-Pun's level being nigh infinite, not truly infinite. He's still infinitely powerful, though (truly infinite ability scores, caster level etc, as well as total and complete invulnerability tends to do that).
Also, due to infinite profession check, Pun-Pun has his own infinite hoard of gold, aside from what's owned by the various citizens of Sigil.

Infinite Profession checks eh?

In a time before time, there existed a single kobold, (although that description hardly holds true of her now) known as Pun-Pun. She was truly a master of space and time. Before her lay the vast emptiness that existed between the planes. As luck would have it, she knew the secret methods of professional reality builders. In a single week, she built a truly infinite city from that nothingness. It held a nigh-limitless supply of people and places, buildings and things. Within this limitless city, she crafted herself a new form, shedding her previous moniker of Pun-Pun, and claiming her new title as The Lady of Pain. She lives to this day within her creation, the largest extension of her infinite worth.

Offline Bauglir

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2012, 12:25:26 PM »
Her omnipotence frees her from the shackles of mundane desires and selfishness - as a kobold, her inclinations are communal, and she spends her efforts ensuring Sigil's perpetual peace.

Pity about Pun-Pun not being level infinity, that does kind of pose a problem. Maybe one day we'll figure out a workaround, although conceivably she could have just granted herself an ability that reads, "Pun-Pun has infinite hit dice, regardless of her actual experience total."

Offline littha

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2012, 01:52:20 PM »
Pun Pun also cant enter Sigil though I suppose it could do its trick to gain divine rank while there but then I am not sure you could leave... or that the lady wouldn't do something about you before you reached divine power.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2012, 02:24:00 PM »
Pun Pun also cant enter Sigil though I suppose it could do its trick to gain divine rank while there but then I am not sure you could leave... or that the lady wouldn't do something about you before you reached divine power.

...the point is that the Lady of Pain is Pun-Pun.  So it wouldn't be a problem.
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Offline littha

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2012, 03:05:34 PM »
Pun Pun also cant enter Sigil though I suppose it could do its trick to gain divine rank while there but then I am not sure you could leave... or that the lady wouldn't do something about you before you reached divine power.

...the point is that the Lady of Pain is Pun-Pun.  So it wouldn't be a problem.

I was going for a bit of a paradox angle actually.


Other thinking: The lady has always existed, thus it is impossible to get back in time to a period where the lady did not exist thus the lady can never have been anything else.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 03:07:16 PM by littha »

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2012, 03:07:00 PM »
She doesn't need infinite levels, just an arbitrarily high number of levels (I think).  Also, why not give herself an ability that basically says "you gain 1 point of experience for every x you do" where "x" is something she can literally do infinite of?  The problem comes back to a rules-legal way of doing it, rather than making up a new ability (even though made up abilities are technically allowed by Pun-Pun's abilities).

EDIT: oh, wait, she does need infinite levels, since there are infinite possible levels and she needs all of them.

Also, there are an infinite number of creatures with infinite levels.
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Offline Halinn

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2012, 04:43:01 PM »
Pun-Pun can be any level asked in any class ("Do you have at least 1532467134571345134571 levels in Commoner?" "Yes, of course."), but unless there's a way to turn either a skill check, infinite ability score or infinite caster level directly into experience, she's not level infinity. Closest thing would be the argument that killing the infinite amount of people of infinite levels in Sigil would get PP to level infinity, but it's not an unambiguous path to level infinity. She could possibly make a CR infinity trap, but that's too high above her own ECL to give any experience when disarming it.

Offline littha

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2012, 04:50:12 PM »
She doesn't need infinite levels, just an arbitrarily high number of levels (I think).  Also, why not give herself an ability that basically says "you gain 1 point of experience for every x you do" where "x" is something she can literally do infinite of?  The problem comes back to a rules-legal way of doing it, rather than making up a new ability (even though made up abilities are technically allowed by Pun-Pun's abilities).

EDIT: oh, wait, she does need infinite levels, since there are infinite possible levels and she needs all of them.

Also, there are an infinite number of creatures with infinite levels.

As Pun Pun only has Nigh infinite levels then some of these creatures with Truily infinite levels will be stronger which is bizarre.

Offline Amechra

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2012, 04:55:07 PM »
Pun-Pun can be any level asked in any class ("Do you have at least 1532467134571345134571 levels in Commoner?" "Yes, of course."), but unless there's a way to turn either a skill check, infinite ability score or infinite caster level directly into experience, she's not level infinity. Closest thing would be the argument that killing the infinite amount of people of infinite levels in Sigil would get PP to level infinity, but it's not an unambiguous path to level infinity. She could possibly make a CR infinity trap, but that's too high above her own ECL to give any experience when disarming it.

Too bad this ain't 1e; there, you could get XP for money.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2012, 06:18:27 PM »
@Halinn: Yeah, I know that Pun-Pun's not level infinity, hence my remarks of "she does not need to be level infinity, oh wait, yeah she does, dang".  Also: why would that not work?  Is there a rule that sufficiently high CRs do not grant xp?  I shall check the DMG now.

*checks*

It appears to be extremely open ended.  In fact, I'd say that since this is the YBIYBI forum?  infinite xp is a go.  The DMG leaves it up to the DM as to applying an appropriate xp reward for the encounter, going so far as to say all xp is explicitly DM fiat and that the chart is a general guideline.  Of course, this is up to debate since, again, all xp is up to the DM, not a hard rule.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2012, 07:15:00 PM »
But... Pun-Pun has an infinite leadership score, which means he has infinite followers of every level up to 20th.  He also has infinite CL.  So all he has to do is have all his 20th-level followers be on one plane, and nuke them all with an infinitely large spell.  Voilá, infinite xp.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2012, 07:25:47 PM »
No, doesn't work like that.  You run into the "infinite CR" problem again, OR you run into the nigh infinite problem again, because you need to do it in discreet amounts.
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Offline Elevevated Beat

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2012, 08:03:06 PM »
I like this. But I feel I have to point out one small detail. We're assuming Pun-Pun is The Lady of Pain because Pun-Pun is the only being that we know of with close to the same write up as The Lady of Pain. It doesn't mean he is the only one.
Just thought I'd put that out there.
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Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: The Enabler
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2012, 08:21:49 PM »
I like this. But I feel I have to point out one small detail. We're assuming Pun-Pun is The Lady of Pain because Pun-Pun is the only being that we know of with close to the same write up as The Lady of Pain. It doesn't mean he is the only one.
Just thought I'd put that out there.
Yes it does. The first time Pun-Pun emerges, he immediately makes an infinite Knowledge check, granting him effective omniscience. He then knows exactly where and when each other Pun-Pun will emerge, and can get there beforehand and kill it with infinite actions.

Once one Pun-Pun has ascended, it is impossible for another to ascend. The first will not let it happen.