Author Topic: Ways to become a devil?  (Read 15730 times)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2013, 08:21:45 PM »
Is there even an Orc only item in the DMG or SS to begin with?
Not that I know of off the top of my head ... which kind of shows the point. It was just the authors giving a quick example so the reader could understand instead of spelling out fully all that it would entail without examples.

Offline Ithamar

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2013, 07:23:48 PM »
Is there even an Orc only item in the DMG or SS to begin with?
Orc Razor, SS pg. 51 - Gives orcs +2 DEX & CON, but is just a +1 falchion for non-orcs.  I seem to recall 1 or 2 others in A&EG perhaps.

But certainly doesn't pertain to becoming a devil.  So carry on.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2013, 10:03:22 PM »
Okay...so if gaining the [Elf] subtype does not actually make you an Elf than does that mean that gaining the [Outsider] type does not actually make you an Outsider?  :???
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2013, 11:14:00 PM »
gaining the [Elf] subtype does not actually make you an Elf
You count as one. Like the 'as' clause that makes midnight metamagic abuse work.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2013, 02:16:18 PM »
gaining the [Elf] subtype does not actually make you an Elf
You count as one. Like the 'as' clause that makes midnight metamagic abuse work.

Could I get a quote? I've been looking all over the place for where it says that.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2013, 09:13:22 PM »
So while I wait for a reply from PBMC and Soro can anyone reading this thread answer this question?:

Okay...so if gaining the [Elf] subtype does not actually make you an Elf than does that mean that gaining the [Outsider] type does not actually make you an Outsider?  :???

Muddying this further is the Incarnate Construct template. It says:

Quote
“Incarnate construct” is an acquired template that can be applied to any construct creature with a generally humanoid form—two arms, two legs, one head


So is anything with a "humanoid form" as defined here a humanoid even if it doesn't have the [Humanoid] type? If a being that does not have a "humanoid form" gains the [Humanoid] type is it still not considered a humanoid?
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Offline Argent Fatalis

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2013, 12:52:27 AM »
That makes some sense, the Elf subtype not making you an actual Elf that is; you might be distantly related to an Elf, or through magical means, become Elf-like, just as you would a like an Outsider, albeit you are not actually an Outsider. For example, a Human Monk becoming an Outsider through Perfect Self is still a human being despite gaining Outsider qualities through magic.

Anything with a "humanoid form" should be a Humanoid Type or Monstrous Humanoid Type. For example, a Zombie Human Commoner is still a Humanoid despite having the Undead Type (and Zombie Template), so it still is humanoid. However the inverse should be true? I don't have the book at hand, but Anthropomorphic Animals from Savage Species should be a good example; they're animals that gain the Humanoid Type if I recall. I may be wrong, however.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2013, 10:59:50 PM »
To muddy things even further we have a quote from Libris Mortis concerning the Grave Dirt Golem:

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This humanoid golem is composed of magically coherent grave earth.


Yet the GDG has the [Construct] type...
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Offline Argent Fatalis

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2013, 08:30:16 AM »
If my memory serves correct, most Golems are humanoid in shape as it is, hence why the Incarnate Construct template exists (and so does its qualifiers). Not all Golems are humanoid, nor are all humanoids Golems, but most Golems are humanoid is the reasoning, more or less as I see it.

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2013, 09:28:30 PM »
Don't confuse Humanoid (the type) with humanoid (a descriptive term for a creature's overall shape).  You wouldn't allow Charm Person to work on anything with a humanoid shape, right?
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2013, 10:04:17 PM »
Don't confuse Humanoid (the type) with humanoid (a descriptive term for a creature's overall shape).  You wouldn't allow Charm Person to work on anything with a humanoid shape, right?

How do we tell the difference by RAW though?

The problem here is if that interpretation is correct (and it seems like so far it is) than the prequisite would specifically have to list a requirement of the [X] type for you to be able to qualify for gaining that type.

An example would be the Fiend of Possession PRC. It requires you to be:

Quote
Any outsider with the Evil subtype

Outsider here is a "descriptive term" isn't it? Unless I'm misinterpreting something (and I could be. I'm quite tired right now) it seems like you wouldn't be able to qualify by gaining the [Outsider] type. Instead you would have to qualify by another method that says you turn into an outsider.
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2013, 10:12:56 PM »
No, I'm pretty sure it's as easy as getting the outsider type and having the evil subtype.  Note that native outsiders do not naturally get alignment subtypes, so an evil tiefling would not qualify.  However, a tiefling that gains the evil subtype somehow, would.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2013, 10:17:03 PM »
No, I'm pretty sure it's as easy as getting the outsider type and having the evil subtype.  Note that native outsiders do not naturally get alignment subtypes, so an evil tiefling would not qualify.  However, a tiefling that gains the evil subtype somehow, would.

But it doesn't actually require the [Outsider] type. It requires you to be an outsider. A small but important difference.

So for an example, if it instead wanted you to be a humanoid with the Evil subtype it seems like by RAW a grave dirt golem would qualify since it is explicitly stated that it is a humanoid.

At least if I'm interpreting things correctly.
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2013, 10:26:32 PM »
No, dear god no. Humanoid, as in the dictionary term, precedes Humanoid, the creature type. If they say humanoid form, it means the dictionary definition, not the glossary one. If they meant type, they would say type rather than form. Humanoid is an adjective first, and the context of these creatures and templates are using that definition.

I know twisting words is the one true goal in life for many of this forum's members, but don't go that far, it is really not worth it.
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2013, 10:31:32 PM »
But there is no way to declare something is an outsider other than through type, is there?  If you have the outsider type, you are an outsider.  Can you point to any creature that is explicitly called out as an outsider, yet does not have the outsider type?

The grave dirt golem is a construct.  It doesn't even have the evil subtype.  The humanoid part is merely a descriptor for its overall shape (upright, head, 2 arms, 2 legs).  You wouldn't allow someone to cast Reduce Person on the golem, would you?  Of course not, it doesn't have the humanoid type or a humanoid subtype even.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2013, 10:31:52 PM »
No, dear god no. Humanoid, as in the dictionary term, precedes Humanoid, the creature type. If they say humanoid form, it means the dictionary definition, not the glossary one. If they meant type, they would say type rather than form. Humanoid is an adjective first, and the context of these creatures and templates are using that definition.

I know twisting words is the one true goal in life for many of this forum's members, but don't go that far, it is really not worth it.

This interpretation actually hurts me more. I'm just trying my best here to be correct here.

And if you looked at my second example you will notice that it doesn't say form:

Quote
This humanoid golem is composed of magically coherent grave earth.

See?
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2013, 10:36:47 PM »
No, dear god no. Humanoid, as in the dictionary term, precedes Humanoid, the creature type. If they say humanoid form, it means the dictionary definition, not the glossary one. If they meant type, they would say type rather than form. Humanoid is an adjective first, and the context of these creatures and templates are using that definition.

I know twisting words is the one true goal in life for many of this forum's members, but don't go that far, it is really not worth it.

This interpretation actually hurts me more. I'm just trying my best here to be correct here.

And if you looked at my second example you will notice that it doesn't say form:

Quote
This humanoid golem is composed of magically coherent grave earth.

See?

Because it's being used as an adjective, humanoid<adj golem<noun, the adjective modifying the subject. The adjective form is the dictionary definition I was referring to. 'Golem' isn't a defined type either, so it's also relegated to flavor text alongside the usage of 'humanoid'.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2013, 10:38:59 PM »
But there is no way to declare something is an outsider other than through type, is there?  If you have the outsider type, you are an outsider.  Can you point to any creature that is explicitly called out as an outsider, yet does not have the outsider type?

Off the top of my head, there's any creature with the Otherworldy feat:

Quote
Benefit

You are a native outsider, not a humanoid. You have darkvision out to 60 feet. Furthermore, you gain a +2 bonus on all Diplomacy checks.

The grave dirt golem is a construct.  It doesn't even have the evil subtype.  The humanoid part is merely a descriptor for its overall shape (upright, head, 2 arms, 2 legs).  You wouldn't allow someone to cast Reduce Person on the golem, would you?  Of course not, it doesn't have the humanoid type or a humanoid subtype even.

Pretend that the golem got the subtype from the ritual of association or something.

Anyways what you are saying is the sensible and PO view of things. I'm looking for the RAW here and RAW is oftentimes not very sensible. I don't think I would ever rule that monks are not proficient with their unarmed strikes in an RL game but that's the RAW.
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2013, 10:48:51 PM »
But there is no way to declare something is an outsider other than through type, is there?  If you have the outsider type, you are an outsider.  Can you point to any creature that is explicitly called out as an outsider, yet does not have the outsider type?

Off the top of my head, there's any creature with the Otherworldy feat:

Quote
Benefit

You are a native outsider, not a humanoid. You have darkvision out to 60 feet. Furthermore, you gain a +2 bonus on all Diplomacy checks.

That feat changes your type from humanoid to outsider, and gives you the native subtype.  Do you have an official stat block of such a creature for verification?

The grave dirt golem is a construct.  It doesn't even have the evil subtype.  The humanoid part is merely a descriptor for its overall shape (upright, head, 2 arms, 2 legs).  You wouldn't allow someone to cast Reduce Person on the golem, would you?  Of course not, it doesn't have the humanoid type or a humanoid subtype even.

Pretend that the golem got the subtype from the ritual of association or something.

Anyways what you are saying is the sensible and PO view of things. I'm looking for the RAW here and RAW is oftentimes not very sensible. I don't think I would ever rule that monks are not proficient with their unarmed strikes in an RL game but that's the RAW.

Monks have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.  That's how everyone else gets the "proficiency", so why not them?  Besides, unarmed attacks basically a specific sub-set of natural attacks.  Would you say that all creatures with natural weapons are not proficient with them, because there is no mention of proficiency in the natural weapons part of the Monster Manual?
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2013, 02:12:59 AM »
Quote
Off the top of my head, there's any creature with the Otherworldy feat

my interpretation-
this feat replaces the Humanoid type (or another previous type, since non-Humanoids can get the feat) with the Outsider (native) type.

your interpretation-
it look like an outsider non-type and loses its old humanoid non-type.

further support-
SRD only says Outsider type creatures are partially composed of the essence of some plane. How does that help to get a description of the creature?

it looks like some aspect of the plane? Which aspect of the Material Plane? It doesn't say. Does it still even have a body? Arms? legs?

no, that's the original creature's description is for, based of it being whatever type/creature originally.

conclusion-
therefore unless you have text that describes the outsider non-type's look, it has to be the my interpretation.

I use mine and yours to simplify things, since others side with both of us.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 02:14:33 AM by zook1shoe »
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