Author Topic: The OOC thread  (Read 168976 times)

Offline ariasderros

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2013, 12:52:55 PM »
And yes, it's not the best for pure casting, but that wasn't what bothered me.
I misread above. I still think you're overstating what the class is and can do, based on just how it finishes. It is very good at certain things, mostly increasing your survival. Even that sorcerer isn't actually gaining much. Fast Healing, and easily beat DR, SR 11+HD, speed. You know, things he can already get from spells. The only thing he gets that he can really use, is Paragon Casting Excellence, to help out his low-level spells DC's, and some stats.
And all I'm using it for is defense. Yes, if I wanted to go absolute beatstick, the class can help there too, and well. But if you want to look at an Osle class that outperforms Paragon (using any base) as a beatstick, look at the Tarrasque.

Osle is very good at balancing things. Very good. Yes, he makes (or allows, when others are writing) some things deliberately better than others. Paragon, Monster of Legend (which I'm already using, and Kuroi accepted), Gods, Tarrasque.

Yes, Paragon caps out pretty strong. It has a capstone befitting a 15 level long PRC. Which you can't get until ECL 20, minimum. I wouldn't get it until L22.
Looking at how something is on the top end of play is pointless, unless you are starting out there, or have a definitive belief that you'll actually get that far. Want to know how relevant I believe that Max HD and take 11 on all rolls is? Not. Because, even if I get it, we would be at level twenty-freaking-two, Epic has hit the wall and we're all going to die. Honestly, at that point, you'd want to feed me a L21 cleric who has the Ignore Material Components [Epic] feat, so I can survive whatever, and keep resurrecting you.


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« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 12:55:53 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2013, 12:53:18 PM »
That's just the fluff behind the original template, so sue me. :P

Concerned Ninja Citizen:I noticed a slight mistake in your build. You cannot take extra option (Iron Whitout) because that's a Glorious Gift of Chaos, thus only available at level 7, while your last feat was gained at level 6.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2013, 01:00:38 PM »
Anything that states its perfect doesn't agree with me. Probably comes from viewing perfection as an unattainable idea, so claims of it are just arrogance. :P

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Quicksilver Dodge

Of all the abilities available in the class, why is it this one that makes me the most paranoid? :huh

Offline ariasderros

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2013, 01:22:58 PM »
Anything that states its perfect doesn't agree with me. Probably comes from viewing perfection as an unattainable idea, so claims of it are just arrogance. :P
I agree with you there. As far as Paragons, I just think of it as they're just so good at what they do, that they, for that purpose, seem 'perfect' by the standards of others.
Otherwise, Kurotsuchi Mayuri said it best about 'perfection'.
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"There is nothing in this world that is truly "perfect". Though it may be a rather large cliché, it is still the truth. It is the ordinary people who look up to "perfection" as an ideal and seek after it. But in truth, what is this idea of "perfection" truly worth? Nothing. Not a single thing. I detest "perfection". To be "perfect" is to be unable to improve any further. There would be no scope for "creation", not a single gap in one's knowledge or one's ability. Do you see now? To true scientists like you and I, "Perfection" is tantamount to "despair". We aspire to reach greater levels of brilliance than ever before, but never, NEVER, to reach perfection. That is the paradox through which we scientists must struggle. Indeed, it is our duty to find pleasure in that struggle. In other words, the second you allowed yourself to spout a ridiculous word like "perfect", in truth, you had already been defeated. That is if you wish to be treated as a scientist."

Quote
Quote
Quicksilver Dodge
Of all the abilities available in the class, why is it this one that makes me the most paranoid? :huh
Why? It's just an AC booster to a character who doesn't have much of one.
If you can't tell by all of this, though, I'm basically using Mindstealer as a bit of a utility tank. Utility now, tank later.
Though, if Paragon is nixed, then I'll go a different rout. Not sure what yet.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2013, 01:28:18 PM »
Ah, Mayuri. Complete psychopath, but fun all the same. That was such an... interesting fight.

Still prefer Kenpachi. To hell with finesse, brute force all the way. If that doesn't work, try more of it. :D

Hn... sorry. I worry too easily.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2013, 01:35:12 PM »
Hn... sorry. I worry too easily.

... are you sure you're in the right game?  :P

Umm... this character is going to be a bit... Mayuri-ish.
I just want to study you. I'll have to start sucking out your mind. Then, if I like what I find, kill you in order to get a better means of study. Quite simple, now stay still, and this will hurt less.

Although, I need to look through other traits, and if kuroi stands by that "can have flaws" thing, then looking at those too.
Something fluffed for having identity issues. So I can attribute my flaw / trait the Fallout.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2013, 01:39:36 PM »
Oh, the game itself won't worry me, I'll just fret excessively over things that might mess stuff up. I'm playing the character that thinks killing people they're never going to see again is a courtesy, remember? :p

Yup, blaming the fallout is a good idea. Especially with magical abilities involved. :D

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2013, 02:48:55 PM »
Concerned Ninja Citizen:I noticed a slight mistake in your build. You cannot take extra option (Iron Whitout) because that's a Glorious Gift of Chaos, thus only available at level 7, while your last feat was gained at level 6.

Fixed.

Offline InnaBinder

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #88 on: March 08, 2013, 02:53:27 PM »
Anything that states its perfect doesn't agree with me. Probably comes from viewing perfection as an unattainable idea, so claims of it are just arrogance. :P
Huh.  I've always seemed to find myself held to the standard of "best effort," with any effort that could be improved upon called a flat failure against that metric (since you can't honestly say you did your "best" if you had room for improvement).
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2013, 02:58:21 PM »
But your best effort isn't perfection, because that's tantamount to saying nothing can ever surpass your achievement. Perfection would mean there isn't the slightest thing wrong with it. Hence the 'arrogance' thing coming in. :/

Offline InnaBinder

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #90 on: March 08, 2013, 03:01:00 PM »
But your best effort isn't perfection, because that's tantamount to saying nothing can ever surpass your achievement. Perfection would mean there isn't the slightest thing wrong with it. Hence the 'arrogance' thing coming in. :/
I didn't say I was being held to a reasonable standard.  I was simply indicating how "best effort" has consistently been applied, in my experience.  If you could have done better, you didn't do your best.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #91 on: March 08, 2013, 03:05:05 PM »
... but we're talking about perfection, not your best effort. If your best effort to cook something results in a house burning down, then you can hardly call that perfect.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #92 on: March 08, 2013, 03:07:57 PM »
Your best effort at the time was put forth. As a result, you have improved. That's what practice and exercise are when taken to their limits. You constantly do your best. Therefor you constantly improve. This pushes what your best is to a greater height. But you never achieve perfection.


@ Kuroi, for the record, I'm not planning to bother doing any more for Paragon. Firstly, it's already at ECL17, so we can cross that bridge when we come to it. Secondly, level 11 and up for that class is when it starts to get into the insane parts, and I'm doubtful that your campaign is going to be so hard as to justify Paragon Excellencies.

Also, thoughts on Little and Numb to Pain?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 03:12:15 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #93 on: March 08, 2013, 03:12:03 PM »
... but we're talking about perfection, not your best effort. If your best effort to cook something results in a house burning down, then you can hardly call that perfect.
I never said that an effort that resulted in such could be called "best," either, so I'm not sure why you bring it up. 

I said that - in my experience - "best" and "perfect" are essentially interchangeable terms, and that "best effort" is the standard to which I've frequently found myself held.  In my experience, an effort with room for improvement falls short of the metric "best effort," barring qualifiers like "best effort from among these examples."

As for the "at the time" qualifier, I'm glad to hear your experiences have usually included that qualifier.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #94 on: March 08, 2013, 03:15:27 PM »
I'm not sure that I understand--are you saying that the best you, personally, can achieve, cannot be called your best effort if someone else can do better? If I was to set a new personal record for, say, doing a 100m sprint (ie. finishing it; I loathe running), how can that not be called my best effort, just because professional athletes can do better?

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #95 on: March 08, 2013, 03:23:14 PM »
Defining "best effort" as above seems to rob the term of any functional meaning and make it a synonym of "perfect" which itself is basically a synonym of "unobtainable."

In other words, taking things to their logical conclusion usually results in something profoundly absurd. 

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #96 on: March 08, 2013, 04:03:27 PM »
I think we're getting a bit too worked up over something that may not end up entirely relevant to our fun cooperative roleplaying game.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #97 on: March 08, 2013, 04:11:00 PM »
Aww, I like these sort of debates. :(

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #98 on: March 08, 2013, 04:17:40 PM »
They can be fun in the right venue but when they take up pages of OOC threads (which tend to get unwieldy anyway) they get irritating fast IMO.

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: The OOC thread
« Reply #99 on: March 08, 2013, 05:03:26 PM »
Your best effort at the time was put forth. As a result, you have improved. That's what practice and exercise are when taken to their limits. You constantly do your best. Therefor you constantly improve. This pushes what your best is to a greater height. But you never achieve perfection.


@ Kuroi, for the record, I'm not planning to bother doing any more for Paragon. Firstly, it's already at ECL17, so we can cross that bridge when we come to it. Secondly, level 11 and up for that class is when it starts to get into the insane parts, and I'm doubtful that your campaign is going to be so hard as to justify Paragon Excellencies.

Also, thoughts on Little and Numb to Pain?

Little is okay (if for no other reason than RD is already taking the exact opposite trait). Numb to Pain takes some of the fun out of torturing your character eventually, so no (and besides, the whole "secret HP" thing sounds like a MAJOR pain in the ass).  :p

Yeah... you know what? Paragon is fine. Go nuts.

By the way, I find that one's "best effort" is always conditioned by circunstances. ALWAYS. To do everything one can at some point is, essentially, one's best effort. Conversely, there is no such thing as an effort that cannot be improved upon - but such an improvement is conditioned, first and foremost, by conscience and will. You can't try to do better if you don't believe you can do better, and you can't try to do better if you don't want to do better. Simple as that.
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