Author Topic: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook  (Read 5714 times)

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« on: February 28, 2013, 08:08:07 PM »
The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook

It's likely I've made some poor recommendations, or missed some really good ones, so commentary and anything to improve the guide will be welcome here.
-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
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Offline Pluto

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2013, 08:39:53 PM »
Cool guide!

I threw a similar sort of guide over on gitp that went over SM and its SLAs. That guide didn't center on the Binder and it was more focused on summarizing a wide breadth of options than going into depth on anything, but if you're looking for a second opinion on something, it'll probably be there.

And one issue I've heard brought up since I wrote that is that there's apparently a bit of a controversy over whether the summon subschool's limits on summoned monsters' spell durations applies to their SLA durations as well. Mostly it's just a question of how deep SLAs' "works just like the spell of that name" clause goes. I don't know if it's going to be worth addressing, but it's an issue that your entries also bring up.

Offline Shadowhunter

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 04:45:44 AM »
Cagemarrow played a Binder during Red Hand of Doom and his adventures were a blast for me to read. He made a huge compilation of a summon monster list here. It's not completely complete, but it's quite extensive. I doubt he'll do more work on it since his Binder is retired, but I think it's a good source for us Binders out there.


Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 08:14:58 AM »
Those are great references.  That's a lot of work gone into Cagemarrow's stat compilation there, definitely going to add a link to that.

Pluto, that's a neat handbook, I'll definitely be looking through it as soon as I'm done writing up Summon Monster IX to see what your comments are; I may well be missing some gems in my commentary or overestimating something.  As far as the summoning subschool...honestly I hadn't thought to look it up, and that little clause had never really come to my attention.  I may have to readjust a number of my recommendations based on that.  Granted, technically the binder might get around that due to the technicality of Summon Alien not actually duplicating the spell, and instead just summoning the creature, but that somewhat goes against my recommendation to just treat it as the spell.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2013, 08:02:34 PM »
 :clap ... good stuff so far.


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Offline Cagemarrow

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2013, 10:07:29 PM »
It's been a long time since I've been able to play any D&D at this point but please feel free to use anything from my compiled list. If you want the original files at all let me know and I can send them over.

Offline Cagemarrow

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2013, 10:23:12 PM »
One thing to note that I didn't see, the Pseudonatural template gives all of the summons a minimum intelligence of 3 which gives them a humanoid level intelligence. I vaguely remember a rule stating that this gives them access to at least one language which in turn means that they can be commanded using telepathy if you are using the summon as per the spell option.

I also note that you made a mistake with the Djinni, their create food and water and major creation are available as spell-like abilities have a casting time of a standard action per the Rules Compendium (pg 118, left column 2nd paragraph down) unless the spell it's mimicking takes less time to cast, in which case it uses that time.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 10:47:11 PM by Cagemarrow »

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2013, 02:13:51 AM »
Sure, the original files would be great.   :clap  You can email them to me at mnemnosyne@gmail.com or send them any other way you like.

And yes, I should probably mention the int thing, good suggestion.  As for the Djinni...hah.  I checked the rule in the SRD, which says that it takes the same amount of time as the spell it mimics, which is usually 1 standard action.  I see that first part has been removed from the Rules Compendium...nice.  Definitely a boost to be able to add those long casting time spells.  ...which means I have to go over my list again for others that I quietly omitted because of that.  :banghead  Ah well, good thing in the end.

I should have Summon Monster IX up soon, along with the mentioned changes.  I think I'll add a few notes right now to cover some of this stuff.  And I definitely need to sort out my thoughts on the Summoning subschool's limitations and how they apply here.  On the one hand it's not actually casting a spell, on the other hand an SLA works 'just like the spell'.  I think it's probably intended to include SLA's, but I definitely see why some people might argue about it; I admit I'd certainly look for any loophole that allows my summons to buff me.
-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2013, 03:34:56 PM »
Summoned creatures' ongoing spells end when the summoning spell does, so the recommendation of using long-duration and permanent spells from summoned creatures (such as summoning Lantern Archons to use Continual Light or Maelephants to use Alarm) is not correct.

Edit: I see you're already working on addressing that issue. Just note that SLAs do say that they work just like the spells of the same name, except for the differences noted in the description of SLAs, which does say anything about sticking around after a summoned creature disappears.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 03:39:27 PM by Garryl »

Offline Cagemarrow

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2013, 04:46:47 PM »
While that's true about ongoing spells for those creatures that have regular spell casting it may not apply to Spell Like Abilities the same way. It becomes DM call in my experience and I've had it ruled both ways. Still it increases the usability of the summon's drastically. The Deva's that get Commune and Divination are awesome with this ruling. Unlimited ability to ask the Deva's god questions. . . at least till they send a hit squad after you for bugging them too often. :)

I've also emailed over the documents I had, may need to check your spam folder for subject Binder Documents from Cagemarrow.

Another thing I notice, the creatures with Magic Circle against Good/Evil centered on them provide any non opposed alignment creature within the range with a Protection from Good/Evil benefit as well. This includes the protection from possession, mental control, +2 Deflection to AC, and +2 to saves. Definately makes having one stand in the middle of the party worthwhile.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 05:07:32 PM by Cagemarrow »

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2013, 05:04:25 PM »
Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name.
....
In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

Seems pretty clear-cut to me. Am I missing something?

I'm not trying to say that some people don't play it otherwise, nor that it's even an uncommon thing. Heck, there are probably more people who play without SLAs ending when the summoning spell ends that those who do (my group certainly did the last time summoning spells came up). For people who play like that, knowing what long-duration SLAs are available is very valuable. It's also very useful to know for Spellthieves, so it's a good resource to have around, period. I just ask that you shift it off to the side a bit instead of implying that SLAs continuing is RAW.

Offline Cagemarrow

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2013, 05:14:37 PM »
That's why I suggest discussing it with the DM first. I really wish they had spelled out the rules for Spells, Spell like, and Supernatural abilities a little different because sometimes they treat them as completely separate things while others they seem to assume they are the same and they aren't always consistent.

For the Djinni's Major Creation they specifically change it so the spell is Permanant for plant like material, I personally wish they had instead changed the duration to instantaneous so the created items are real because that seems to be their intent behind it.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 05:16:21 PM by Cagemarrow »

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2013, 06:04:47 AM »
Yeah, I agree, I'm going to rewrite a lot of entries and then include a secondary part where it notes the usefulness of a summon if the spells continuing past the duration of the summon is allowed.  When I first wrote this out, I honestly didn't know about that rule because it hadn't occurred to me to check the summoning subschool description.  And I'll wager a lot of players and DMs also don't think of checking.

Gonna take me a while to get through it again though, but I'll get it done slowly and surely.
-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
Ailanreanter, Arcanaloth

Offline akalsaris

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2013, 11:58:21 PM »
Great handbook!  Very comprehensive look at an interesting set of abilities  :D

I'll note that the Hollyphant's trumpet ability is also worth looking at. It's a pathetically low DC 60-ft AOE save-or-stunned for 2 rounds, but opponents who save are still stunned for 1 round. Three times per day. Combined with Heal and Flame Strike, and that's 5 rounds of useful abilities against most foes, and that's before considering his utility abilities. 

And honestly, Heal every 5-6 rounds is good enough that a binder at this level and higher could function as a solid in-combat healer if he focused on summoning Hollyphants. It would be a fun way to fill the healer role IMO.

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2013, 02:13:15 PM »
Finally got around to updating with Summon Monster IX.  Been pretty busy lately, making it hard to get around to finishing this.

Now that that's done, I'm going to work on going through the rest of the list and rewriting a lot of the suggestions to take into account the summoning subschool's limitations, separating the suggestions for when that rule is being ignored down to a separate section.  Also taking into account the ability to cast spells with a long casting time, which I had previously pruned from the lists.  We'll see how fast I can get around to updating all of that.
-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
Ailanreanter, Arcanaloth

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2013, 11:31:37 PM »
There are a number of feats to buff summons for traditional casters ... I assume some of these would apply to the Binder as well ... ?

Best,
David

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 12:30:37 AM »
If we're going by my recommendation to treat Summon Alien exactly like Summon Monster, then any summon-improving feat that would improve Summon Monster will also improve Summon Alien.  However, many of these feats have prerequisites that the Binder would find onerous to obtain, while others are impossible for a straight Binder.  Rashemi Elemental Summoning, for example, requires 'spellcaster level 5th', and a binder is not a spellcaster.  Augment Summoning requires Spell Focus (Conjuration) which is worthless to a binder.  The binder's summons are also already automatically improved by the pseudonatural template.

Even if the feats apply, I wouldn't honestly recommend it.  I would prefer to spend feats on Favored Vestige (Zceryll) and Rapid Recovery, to gain a +1 effective binder level with Zceryll, and thus gain access to each level of summoned monster at the same actual level as a wizard instead of a sorcerer, and to be able to summon a creature every 4 rounds instead of 5.  An Anima Mage may be able to make better use of feats like Spell Focus (Conjuration)...but I would also argue that the Anima Mage's feats are better spent toward metamagic feats or something else, as well.
-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
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Offline Cagemarrow

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 05:23:17 PM »
If you multiclass into cleric you can get augment summoning without the prerequisite of spell focus using the eberron domain for the dragon below and I think the summoning domain adds summon nature's ally to your spell list which can get you into greenbound or ashbound summons. I'm not sure if those can apply to summon monster as well though. As far as getting caster level 5th the Anima mage prc is especially useful for a summoner build.

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Discussion: The Binder's Summon List and Spellbook
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2013, 12:53:16 AM »
If you multiclass into cleric you can get augment summoning without the prerequisite of spell focus using the eberron domain for the dragon below and I think the summoning domain adds summon nature's ally to your spell list which can get you into greenbound or ashbound summons. I'm not sure if those can apply to summon monster as well though. As far as getting caster level 5th the Anima mage prc is especially useful for a summoner build.

You can just take the planar touchstone feat (Catalogues of Enlightenment (Dragon Below Domain (Augment Summoning Feat) ) )

Best
David