Author Topic: 5E Reviews  (Read 21770 times)

Offline Shadowhunter

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 765
  • E6/E8 fanboy.
    • View Profile
    • The additional vestige collection for all you Binder players out there.
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2014, 12:43:52 AM »
The Monster Manual is out, just for the record.

Offline Nunkuruji

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • I shall bring great terror
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2014, 11:38:16 AM »
I had completely missed that they released a new iteration of the Basic Rules in a better PH & DMG format. Cleared up some gaps for the time being.

Offline Necrosnoop110

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 989
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2014, 10:23:54 AM »
I had completely missed that they released a new iteration of the Basic Rules in a better PH & DMG format. Cleared up some gaps for the time being.
Say what!?!? 5e just came out and they already have a new iteration? "Basic rules"? Link? I'm confused.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2014, 04:00:37 PM »
They are updating the "basic" rules every now and then.  The last update was Nov 3.

link ---> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/basicrules

Personally I haven't bothered yet to do the download, so no comment on the format change.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Nunkuruji

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • I shall bring great terror
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2014, 04:19:33 PM »
Basically they just added some copy/pasted into the Basic Rules from the PH. Additional content that just helped out if you didn't have the PH.

DMG drops next week, should get a lot more interesting.

Offline wotmaniac

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1586
  • Procrastinator in Chief
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2014, 04:48:49 PM »
I had completely missed that they released a new iteration of the Basic Rules in a better PH & DMG format. Cleared up some gaps for the time being.
Say what!?!? 5e just came out and they already have a new iteration? "Basic rules"? Link? I'm confused.
It's just what they're calling the free online content.

Offline Necrosnoop110

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 989
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2014, 06:15:15 PM »
Ok, thanks.  :flutter

Offline Necrosnoop110

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 989
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2014, 04:20:21 PM »

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 762
  • Former Lord of the Kitchen Sink
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2014, 03:14:17 AM »
so I picked up the MM and the first thing I do is look at all the druid wildshape forms.  So what 3E would call animals or vermin are basically all beasts now; so, you get the giant scorpion and stuff... cool, whatever.  There are only two beast forms that you can't get, T-rex and Giant Ape and maybe I'm missing something but I don't get what is so special about these two that they had to bump up their CR just out of range so that even a 20th level Druid can't  get those forms.
The Emperor
Can you find the Wumpus?

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16075
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2014, 05:46:48 PM »
Size or swallow whole?

Offline Nunkuruji

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • I shall bring great terror
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2014, 09:45:37 AM »
Got through most of the DMG

Most of the stuff I like, however the default nature of the availability of magic items is...

I feel bad for the mundanes who want/need a magical weapon of the type they'd like to use, as even relying on the magic weapon spell is uhg...

Hope your DM isn't a dick.

Offline Shadowhunter

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 765
  • E6/E8 fanboy.
    • View Profile
    • The additional vestige collection for all you Binder players out there.
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2014, 10:44:09 AM »
It's also quite problematic trying to figure out exactly the amount of magical items a character ought to possess if you start above level 1. Not sure if this is true or not, but I've read online that the design process of the classes excluded reliance upon a certain amount of magical items, therefore there's no "Wealth by level" in 5th.

All you have to go on are the following things from the DMG:

Quote
You can hand out as much or as little treasure as you want. Over the course of a typical campaign, a party finds treasure hoards amounting to seven rolls on the Challenge 0- 4 table, eighteen rolls on the Challenge 5- 10 table, twelve rolls on the Challenge 11-16 table, and eight rolls on the Challenge 17+ table

Quote
Rarity provides a rough measure of an item's power relative to other magic items. Each rarity corresponds
to character level, as shown in the Magic Item Rarity. table. A character doesn't typically find a rare magic
item, for example, until around 5th level. That said, rarity shouldn't get in the way of your campaign's story.

Common and uncommon items are 1st level or higher, rare 5th, very rare 11th and legendary at 17th

So... there's little in the way of established guidelines for those of us that aren't interested in having their group start at level 1. I know I'm tired of it and so is my group. My first instinct is to say that a 5th level character will have something like 2-3 common, 1-2 uncommon and 0-1 rare items at start, with [no clue at all] worth of coins left over... but that's just me.

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2014, 01:56:07 PM »
I'll play Devil's Advocate here and say that's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

Before people complained a lot about how characters needed magic bling to keep up with the monsters.  So in 5e they went with "Ok, you don't need magic items at all, but here's a bunch of magic bling anyway you can throw at the party in terms of exotic treasure."

I'm afraid you're wanting to have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a "amount of magical items a character of level X ought to possess" and a "magic items are not needed for a character to progress" simultaneously.

So yes, in theory, when playing 5e the party should be able to start at level X with no magic items at all and still beat up the expected challenges at level X. And honestly from what I've seen of the Monster Manual, that seems to be true. At worst fighty dudes just need a generic magic weapon for some monsters that have resistance against mundane stuff, and even those are a lot more rare now.


It's not like you can directly buy power with money anymore, so go ahead and make the high level party start with an hoard of gold, what's the worst that can happen?

Offline Shadowhunter

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 765
  • E6/E8 fanboy.
    • View Profile
    • The additional vestige collection for all you Binder players out there.
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2014, 03:12:49 PM »
I don't mind their design philosophy to make characters less reliant on relevant gear to stay close to the power curve (I actually appreciate it in a vacuum), it's more the fact that since I have no practical expertise running 5th ed, I can't accurately gauge beforehand how much gear a party can have before they're ahead of the power curve instead of in line with it.

Admittedly, this isn't going to be an issue after I have some experience with it (theoretical or practical) and I do have a tendency to over-equip my group rather than under-equip it historically anyway, which just means that I can ramp up the difficulty somewhat to compensate.

I'm just pointing out that there's little in the way of assistance from the DMG when it comes to helping aspiring DMs make an informed decision of how much gear is too much.
On the other hand, it's quite possible that this is coming from me being used to 3.5/4th and that someone not too used to thinking like those systems won't have such a hard time.
Goodness knows it took me a long time to find anything resembling a WBL for 4ed and that's very different from 3.5, so the progression isn't that surprising now that I think about it.

It's not the biggest problem, but it's something to keep in mind. Also I agree, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't. I think I might prefer it this new way, time will tell.


As for what's the worst that can happen, that sounds an awful lot like http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TemptingFate  ;)

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16075
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2014, 02:51:43 AM »

Offline Agita

  • He Who Lurks
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2705
  • *stare*
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2014, 01:57:01 PM »
So... there's little in the way of established guidelines for those of us that aren't interested in having their group start at level 1. I know I'm tired of it and so is my group. My first instinct is to say that a 5th level character will have something like 2-3 common, 1-2 uncommon and 0-1 rare items at start, with [no clue at all] worth of coins left over... but that's just me.
On this, at least, the DMG provides some guidance. Page 38, at the bottom, has a table with suggestions for starting gear dependent on level and how common you want magic to be in your campaign. Compared to the number of rolls for treasure hoards suggested elsewhere in the book and your gut assessment, the numbers look low at a glance (in a 'high magic' campaign between 5th and 10th level, it suggests starting characters with one uncommon item, and that's it), but keep in mind the tables contain plenty of consumables, and the result of any one roll is getting distributed among characters in the party, plus it's for starting characters. While you're by no means obligated to go with that, it's a starting point.

As an alternative on the mundane wealth side, before the DMG came out my first instinct was to keep the starting kits but additionally allow players starting at sufficiently high level (like... 5+ or whatever) to get better starting items with their kits if they're proficient - for example, martial classes might get to start with a silvered weapon, someone proficient with heavy armor could start with splint or plate instead of chain, a mountain dwarf whose class wouldn't otherwise start with medium armor could start with half plate.

I don't mind their design philosophy to make characters less reliant on relevant gear to stay close to the power curve (I actually appreciate it in a vacuum), it's more the fact that since I have no practical expertise running 5th ed, I can't accurately gauge beforehand how much gear a party can have before they're ahead of the power curve instead of in line with it.
This interested me, so I took a quick look at the table for monster specs by challenge rating, under the creating monsters section. The easiest to eyeball is AC, where, with one exception, the value is at all times 2 below the average attack roll of a proficient character, of level equal to the challenge rating, starting with a 16 or 17 in their attacking stat and raising it at every opportunity up to its cap (i.e. the highest starting stat you can get with point buy or an array). Most importantly, there aren't any unexplained jumps (at level 10, it jumps from 16 to 17 one level later than expected), which tells me the stats indeed aren't assuming a numerical bonus from magic items - if you get one, it's purely a bonus, not a necessity. Save DCs behave similarly, though they keep scaling with monster proficiency bonus after 20.

If you want to be conservative until you get a better feel for the system, my suggestions:
-Magic weapons seem to be the closest to a necessary item, since a lot of creatures resist or are immune to (lycanthropes) damage from nonmagical weapons. However, a lot of these creatures are also vulnerable to silver weapons, which are much easier to get by, so if you feel handing out magic weapons to your martial characters at the earliest opportunity would be too conspicious, you can try subtly or not so subtly nudging them towards investing in silver weapons.
-Lean towards things that give the PCs more options over things that add bonuses to options they already have. Staves, magic wands, and rods are good for this, as are a lot of miscellaneous wondrous items.
-Consumables, such as potions or a necklace of fireballs. These can fall under the above, be added on their own merit, or act as a way to test what effect something will have on encounters. If you misjudge a potion, the worst it can do is make problems once, and then it's spent and you know better.
-General utility items. I've yet to see a player who'd say no to a good old bag of holding. The lack of WBL provides some freedom here, since in 3.5 these usually got ignored unless they were a really good deal, because that money could have instead gone to buying a more directly powerful item.
-My gut feeling about items that do provide a flat numerical bonus is they shouldn't be too bad individually. The main thing to be cautious of is stacking multiple bonuses, say cloak of resistance+ring of protection+ioun stone of resistance. The good news is a lot of these require attunement, and you can't be attuned to more than three items.
-If you have players whose bonuses are behind the curve for some reason, say because they went with a race/class combination that isn't 100% optimal or they spread their ability scores thin, you could target items that give bonuses at those players to shore them up rather than as a bonus.
-Keep in mind magical weapons don't have to give a flat bonus to hit and damage to count as magical - e.g. the Flame Tongue doesn't. Just giving it a cool effect is acceptable.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 02:01:51 PM by Agita »
Please send private messages regarding board matters to Forum Staff instead.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2014, 06:06:05 PM »
I think a WBL is possible.
Most of it is right there, but there's a part of it that going to be long hard work.

p.38 looks to me like an approximation.  I didn't see (hazy?) any Common magic items listed there.  Otherwise that table looks almost nothing like the Challenge table rolls Shadowhunter references.  For instance: a party of 5 by the end of level 10 should average around 3 magic items apiece.  It feels like the 4e fast build 3 magic items instead of the treasure table, thingy.

The part that's missing ... you see the walking around money tables right before the magic item horde table.  You need to know the average distribution of # of monsters from level 1 to 20, then you can use that table as a simple multiplier.

So does somebody with a "math-ochistic" (you know  ;) :D you are) wanna fail their Fall Finals, to get that data for the rest of us ...  :bigeyes pretty please !!


**


Making your own Magic Items looks OK.  Time is the limiter.  1 YEAR of crafting = 90 000 gp item.  So those higher level items are (just) story lines.  Also mundanes can't make magic items again.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Nunkuruji

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • I shall bring great terror
    • View Profile
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2014, 11:50:42 AM »
Creating magic items of a particular rarity costs the maximum value for its tier, i.e. rare is 5000gp. (p129). No xp cost. At 25/gp progress a day, it's still a pain.

However, the market for magic items is anywhere between the tier values, so the NPC valuation of the rare magic item could be 501 - 5000gp (p135).

There is also an adjustment for the nature of the buyer. (p130).

If you only choose sell un/commons to shady buyers, you could profit over time.


Some of the low tier building blocks still seem to be around. Decanter of Endless Water for endless water, Broom of Flying for endless flight.

Offline Shadowhunter

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 765
  • E6/E8 fanboy.
    • View Profile
    • The additional vestige collection for all you Binder players out there.
Re: 5E Reviews
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2014, 01:01:26 PM »
. . . that's what I get for not reading the book cover to cover. Sheesh, it's right there on the page, silly silly Shadow...  :blush
Though to be fair, it would make sense to have that information under the "Treasure" chapter and not hiding in the last paragraph "Flavours of Fantasy" in the chapter "A world of your own", so I'm going to blame that. Also for reference, that's where I got the information I quoted, on pages 133 and 135.

Well, looking at that pretty much perfectly validates my point that I've got a tendency to give my group a lot more gear than is expected, haha.
I love flavourful items much more than static enhancers and so does most of my players (2 out of 3, the third one just wants to feel badass and has no creativity or preference for magical items apart from an Bad-Ass Hammer (TM) and perhaps a neat armor) so that's in line with consumables and fun stuff.
Stuff like that sparks my creativity, which is something that I've been generally lacking in my life and my RP-crafting for the last... 8 or so years, so I love stuff like Necklace of Fireballs or Iron Bands of Billaro... oh, or the Fan of Winds or whatever that one is called. Now to find a diverse number of different monsters within the same general challenge rating span and knead those things into a cohesive thing that actually have something of a scenario or campaign and sprinkle them with treasure I like. Maybe 2015 I'll manage to string something together.... oh, sorry, this isn't the place to be mopey about stuff, let's get back to the topic at hand:


Though as aDMg so accurately pointed out, it seems like if you average the treasure rolls you would have gotten leveling from 1 to 5, you would have more magical items than the table on 38 lists...
I guess you could use the numbers given and average the amount of gold given at any given level and then make a guesstimate of how many items that would be since they do give you a table for what different rarities of magical items ought to cost. Commons being 50-100, uncommons being 101-500 and so on, with consumables being half the price of permanent items.

Also, thank you very much Agita, much obliged.