Min/Max Boards

Gaming Discussion => Other Games => Topic started by: Amechra on April 28, 2012, 01:27:06 AM

Title: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on April 28, 2012, 01:27:06 AM
Alright, in an extremely generic manner, I would like to ask what steps I would have to consider while making a creature-free deck.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: billking on May 10, 2012, 07:03:59 PM
1) Contrary to popular belief, creatureless decks actually care MORE about having a good mana curve than creature decks. If a creature deck misses its curve and gets expensive threats instead, it can still win by dropping large threats later. If a creatureless deck misses its curve, it will be quickly destroyed by many small creatures. Relying too heavily on a sweeper, such as Wrath of God, is a bad idea; good opponents will hold creatures in hand if they are winning handily and expect a sweeper, and then cast them in a flurry when you're tapped out after casting the sweeper.

Having a good curve is especially important against aggressive decks that play red (for direct damage) or blue (for Mana Leak). Such decks might be able to ignore a sweeper entirely, by going for direct damage after the sweep or by simply preventing the sweeper from ever resolving.

Find constructive things to do with your early mana. If you are running pure combo deck, cards like Ponder, Preordain, and Telling Time can be vital early plays to ensure you "go off" as soon as possible. If you're going for more of a combo-control, cheap, one-for-one removal, like Lightning Bolt or Tragic Slip, is important to clear out small but efficient creatures so that your opponent must dedicated medium-size creatures to your board sweepers. Don't learn too hard on cheap, one-for-one removal though, or your opponent may counter with tokens or with large creatures.

2) Make sure you have multiple routes to card advantage. Creature-based decks regularly experience card advantage by manuevering into a situation where their big creature effectively cancels two or more smaller creatures; even if the creatures do not actually trade, one card preventing two cards from attacking is virtual card advantage. As a creatureless deck, you will never have this in your favor, and many cards that are balanced by this concept become devastating against you — for example, the spell Lingering Souls can generate four 1/1 creatures with one card, which is not that a big deal against someone who controls a single 1/2 or larger flier, but devastating against you if left unchecked; sweepers are often circumvented by cards that create tokens more than one time.

Permanents (non-creature ones, I guess) can be good here. For example, a single Night of Soul's Betrayal shuts down both castings of Lingering Souls, plus all other Lingering Souls remaining in the opponent's deck! Many Planeswalkers can shut down multiple creatures with a single card. You also want sweepers and/or pure card drawing to get card advantage. Keep your mind open to "impure" sweepers, such as Arc Trail, which is just as useful against a 2/1 and a 3/2 as a Wrath of God would be but at half the mana cost.

3) Planeswalkers are more powerful against you, since you cannot attack them with creatures as a check against their power. You can remove them three ways: direct removal such as Oblivion Ring, direct damage such as Lightning Bolt, or by running the same planeswalker yourself. The third option is particularly attractive in combination with creature sweepers; since the #1 enemy of planeswalkers are creatures, and you're not running creatures, cards like Wrath of God have a double synergy.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on May 10, 2012, 10:53:22 PM
Alright, in an extremely generic manner, I would like to ask what steps I would have to consider while making a creature-free deck.

Honestly, your best bet will be the Storm decks out there. Like this old one:

(click to show/hide)

The Empty the Warrens can be replaced by Grapeshot, while the Xantid Swarms can be replace with Pact of Negations (if you can afford them).

I hate saying this, but Lion's Eye Diamond is irreplaceable. This deck is very expensive, but it is top tier. A lesser, cheaper version of it would be feasible but it would take time to hammer out.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Halinn on May 11, 2012, 10:46:45 AM
If one wants to try a budget Storm deck, perhaps try Sac Land Tendrils

(click to show/hide)

It's less resilient against disruption than normal Storm, but about as fast.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: JohnnyMayHymn on May 11, 2012, 01:31:45 PM
What format are you wanting to play? Standard, 1.5, casual multiplayer etc...

How much do you want to spend/ or how exhaustive is your mtg collection?

To a lesser extent, if it's casual, how powerful are your friends decks?

In any case, you need to decide on a win condition.  Then find ways in that(those) color(s) to protect yourself and disrupt your opponent while you set up the apocalypse. 
Alternatively, you could choose a good lock, then pick a win condition that fits.
Then as stated before, you need a consistent manabase.

Casual multiplayer is a special case b/c sometimes you can trick everyone into thinking you're harmless until its too late.

Things that are your friends: tutoring, card drawing, discard, counterspells, milling, mass removal, (reusable)targeted removal, card selection, stealing others permanents, graveyard recursion, etc etc
 
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on May 17, 2012, 10:48:45 AM
Also, there are a lot of pretty good lands that can become creatures. You still won't have any creatures on your deck, but you at least have the option to have some if you need to, like if you need to block a heavy hitter that managed to slip past your first line of defenses. And like always, you need to consider strategy. Why no creatures at all? There are many creatures nowadays that work more like sorceries that are also creatures. There's so many "when it enters the battlefield" effect creatures, and recurrent cheap creatures, that most decks (outside of legacy, that is), have at least 2 or 3 creatures. If you play planeswalkers, you'll want at least some chump blockers to prevent your planeswalker from being attacked directly. Lastly, you'll want to sideboard heavily against aggro decks. If you're going combo or burn, which are the two deck types that come to my mind when i think of a creature free deck, you need some time to "go off", which can be a problem if you're going against fast aggro decks, like Bant Aggro, Goblins, Fairies, etc... Sweepers aren't a great way of dealing with those kinds of deck because they usually have great recovery mechanics for a sweeper or, like said before, can drop a lot of critters following a sweeper, and you really don't have a whole lot of space for sweepers in your deck... They're there just to get you some breathing room. Best defense against those kinds of deck is messing up their mana curve. Land destruction, or some form of mana control (winter orb, etc..). If they don't have enough mana to drop a lot of critters at once, they don't recover well from a sweeper, and can't really build enough damage faster than you can get your combo online, or whittle them down with cheap burn spells. Many planeswalkers also can also somewhat defend themselves, creating tokens to block creatures that want to hit them, returning creatures to the player hands, etc...

There's not much generic advice that can be given for playing a creatureless deck, if we don't at least know what the general strategy will be. Is it control, combo, aggro, or some novel strategy?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on May 17, 2012, 03:41:05 PM
I was more looking for general ideas, as it were; I actually don't currently have the cards to build a strong deck, and I'm saving up for college, so there isn't any luck there.

In other words, I was asking just to get a general idea of how I would approach it in a meta-game manner; the only person who is actually serious about Magic in the area (i.e., the only other person who stands a chance of beating me without luck, since the two of us are just teaching a bunch of other people, none of whom have quite got the hang of it yet), runs a graveyard deck, which means my basic choice of making a mill deck doesn't work very well, so I've been exploring options.

I do have a couple graveyard-clearers, but I'm worried that I don't have enough... Though Liability and Falkenrath Nobles make life just a little harder for him, with maybe a Mage of the Abyss for him to chew on, though I'm not sure if I should...

Oh, and in case it wasn't clear, we play very informally; basically, it is any deck size, with any cards we can scrape together.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: JohnnyMayHymn on May 17, 2012, 03:52:28 PM
In that case try turbo fog you just use a bunch of fog effects and card drawing and throw in some shuffle-my-graveyard-into-my-library effects.  Shure let him get all his creatures out, just prevent the damage :D
One of the cheapest control decks to put together as well.

Or try a pile of counters with one big flyer, let him stock his graveyard and just counter the reanimating cards
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on May 17, 2012, 04:07:47 PM
To clarify: he runs a BG deck based around getting as many monsters into the graveyard to bump the power and toughness of his creatures into the 40 range. I mean, I do have a counter to this, but I would need to get out Palace Guard and Ghost Form out at the same time, and get that out early...

Wow, I had not noticed how well those cards combo before this...
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on May 18, 2012, 12:49:09 AM
A simple Relic of Progenitus will be enough to stop him (most decks these days run cards like that on sideboard because of how many ways there are to interact with the graveyard), and even a simple Go for the Throat or Sever the Bloodline is enough to deal with something like Lord of Extinction or Sutured Ghoul.

A most vital aspect of this game is consistency, and going over the 60 card minimum seriously affects your consistency. I recommend, above everything else, that you keep to the minimum (or a maximum of 63 cards, if you absolutely have to). More cards means your percentage chance of drawing what you need when you need it drops, resulting in you getting plowed something fierce. Only one deck in all of Magic (barring Highlander formats) should be more than 63 cards (Battle of Wits, BTW), and even that deck requires very good piloting skills to be worth it.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on May 18, 2012, 02:07:24 PM
Thanks for that advice; I always try to stay around 60 cards, because I usually only have singles of a given card, and it makes them easier to find...
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Mindstab_Thrull on May 19, 2012, 11:13:59 AM
Alright, in an extremely generic manner, I would like to ask what steps I would have to consider while making a creature-free deck.

If you're trying for a "generic" creatureless deck, there's a few things you can look at.
1. Cards the remove your choice of more than one card type, ideally ones that say they remove permanents. I'm talking about Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse or even Oblivion Ring here. Anything that gets a *permanent* off the board will also work with creatures, and aren't useless if you're not worried about their creatures.
2. Mass removal of some sort, the best being the kind that hist the opponent as well. Lavalanche is a good example, or any of the various Earthquake/Hurricane variants.
3. Using his own cards against him. This could be something as simple as Mind Control or Volition Reins to something more sneaky. A few years ago I was at a Vintage tournament in the US. I was playing an (admittedly bad) Psychatog variant, but I knew Worldgorger Dragon was a big deck.. so I added Animate Dead and Stroke of Genius to my list, both to fuel the Tog and to give me a way to win with my opponent's own Dragon! (Short version: Animate Dead + WGD = both cards bounce in and out of the battlefield, all based on triggered abilities, and you can tap your lands and artifacts for mana in between, allowing infinite mana so you can win with Stroke of Genius at your opponent for more than his library.)

You said his graveyard is the key. See the graveyard as an extension of his hand. Play with cards that are ok on their own but really good against the graveyard - Nihil Spellbomb sees play because at worst it'll get you another card, and at best it kills the graveyards.

Good luck!
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Nemo on June 29, 2012, 02:22:48 PM
Is there any interesting wincon for black that doesn't involve creatures? I want to make cycle of decks that don't involve creatures [or involve them in weird ways, like token spawning instants or artifacts that turn into creatures and stop being them at end of turn], but I can't find anything reliable and fun while staying pure black.

EDIT
Was building pretty normal drain deck but then drifted from the idea:
4x Consume Spirit
21 x Swamp
2 x Demonic Rising
2 x Homicidal Seclusion
3 x Killing Wave
3 x Tragic Slip
3 x Black Sun's Zenith
3 x Go for the Throat
3 x Geth's Verdict
4 x Innocent Blood
3 x Damnation
3 x Grasp of Darkness
3 x Reassembling Skeleton
3 x Liliana of the Veil

Thoughts?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on June 29, 2012, 06:19:07 PM
Profane Command, Exsanguinate, Consume Spirit, and Soul Burn are all kill conditions for mono-Black. Hell, you could run 2 of each and get away with it (though I'd personally go PC*3, Ex*3, CS*3, no SB). Also Death Cloud, but you have to build around that.

Use Gauntlets of Power, Caged Sun, Extraplanar Lens, Doubling Cube, Nirkana Revenant, Cabal Coffers, and Liliana of the Dark Realms (not currently in print, but it will be in about a week or so) to ramp your mana. Solemn Simulacrum and Wayfarer's Bauble both help you accelerate, and it never hurts to have a few mana rocks.

Obviously you shouldn't try to run all of that, but this should give you a marvelous starting point.

There are a ton of options for this style of deck (Death Cloud has been an archtype for years in various formats), so look around.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on June 29, 2012, 07:53:39 PM
Hey, Sinfire Titan, can you look over my current deck load-out for my Mill deck? These are literally the best cards that I have for Mono-Blue, and if you have suggestions, can you please restrict them to commons (I just found a place where I can by 'em at $.25 a pop, which is nice.)

Creatures
Archivist x1
Arctic Merfolk x1
Deranged Assistant x1
Halimar Wavewatch x1
Merfolk Looter x1
Merfolk Mesmerist x3
Merfolk Spy x1
Mistmeadow Witch x1 (Planning on removing, and replacing with... something.)
Sandbar Merfolk x1
Sea Scryer x1
Seasinger x1
Selhoff Occultist x1
Shriekgeist x1 (Potentially could trade a guy for another one, I guess...)
Silver Myr x1
Soratami Mindsweeper x1
Stern Mentor x1
Stonybrook Banneret x1
Vedalken Infuser x1
Whirlpool Rider x1

Sorceries, Instants, and Enchantments
Call to Mind x1
Cancel x1
Chill of Foreboding x1
Dreadwaters x1
Escape Routes x1
Fuel for the Cause x1
Jace's Erasure x2
Mystic Retrieval x1
Narcolepsy x1
Peel from Reality x1
Tezzeret's Gambit x1
Think Twice x1
Tome Scour x1
Unsummon x1
Volrath's Curse x2

Artifacts
Culling Dais x1
Decimator Web x1
Elixer of Immortality x1
Grindclock x1
Isochron Scepter x1
Obelisk of Esper x1
Reito Lantern x1
Shriekhorn x1
Voltaic Key x1

Lands
Halimar Depths x1
Islands x12
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on June 30, 2012, 01:58:14 PM
THe first thing to catch my attention is the number of 1-of's. The second is your land count. Unless that 12 is supposed to be a 21, you are running far too few lands (and even 22 lands is lowballing it). Third, you should try Star City Games, Channel Fireball, or Cool Stuff if you want to pick up some commons (their prices are fair, although shipping is annoying).

Here's a sample list I cooked up. It isn't perfect, but it's cheap (about $30). And I know you asked to restrict it to commons, but you are going to need rares (Chancellor of the Spires is incredible).

4 Merrow Witsniper
3 Mindshrieker
2 Kederekt Leviathan
4 Chancellor of the Spires
3 Dimir Doppelganger
2 Deadeye Navigator
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Duskmantle, House of Shadow
4 Bojuka Bog
7 Island
3 Swamp
3 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Increasing Confusion
4 Induce Paranoia
4 Counterspell
4 Elixir of Immortality

Deadeye Navigator can reuse Merrow Witsniper, Chancellor of the Spires, and even Kederekt Leviathan if things get messy. This allows you a nice spread of abilities, up to and including reseting the board. Dimir Doppelganger is the most expensive card in the deck ($1.50 according to Star City), but it allows you to hate their graveyard and steal their creatures all at the same time. Bojuka Bog is your best friend, completely and effortlessly getting rid of their graveyard and preventing some of the more common reanimator strategies.

Blue Sun's Zenith is, unfortunately, your only source of card draw. If you want, cut the Mindshriekers for Dimir Guildmages. This will give you not only more card draw, but a nice bit of disruption (or you can use Azure Mage, to avoid drawing attention to your draw outlet). Blue Sun's Zenith also has a double-purpose: It's a targeted kill spell. Forcing them to draw their library is a legitimate way of finishing a game.

An alternate to the Zenith is Otherworldly Atlas, which is very potent but capable of backfiring on you (and prone to the Leviathan's EtB trigger).




As I said, it isn't quite what you asked for, but the deck really is dirt-cheap. If needed, I can help set you up with some trades (over at MtGSalvation).
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: littha on June 30, 2012, 02:16:17 PM
I once ran a deck with no creatures in it, was in Mirrodin block though... 

Mycosynth Lattice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Mycosynth%20lattice) + March of the Machines (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220529) + Darksteel Forge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205337)

Need to make sure you have a non-land way of making mana...
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Nemo on July 01, 2012, 01:09:17 PM
Yeah, I know drain tricks. Though never thought about usind doubling cube, thanks :). Littha, if you have anything that gives them +1/+1, you don't. Like  http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222744 this guy.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: littha on July 01, 2012, 11:07:09 PM
Definitely but you have to watch out for people killing off that creature in one way or another.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Pencil on July 09, 2012, 10:31:02 PM
too bad mill is in fact not a Deck...
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on July 10, 2012, 01:52:29 AM
too bad mill is in fact not a Deck...

Was there really a need for that? Yeah, Mill hasn't been competitive in Standard/Extended/Modern for years, but Amechra's deck is more casual than anything (and casual mill is a popular archtype, as both Mind Funeral's and Glimpse the Unthinkable's price tags can attest to). And Legacy/Vintage mill does exist (Painter's Stone combo can get turn 1/2 kills, after all).
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: littha on July 10, 2012, 02:48:55 AM
While I was actually playing that artifact deck I quite often won by opponents running out of cards... One card at a time. It involved platinum angel and whisper silk cloak :D
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Pencil on July 10, 2012, 06:45:59 AM
too bad mill is in fact not a Deck...

Was there really a need for that? Yeah, Mill hasn't been competitive in Standard/Extended/Modern for years, but Amechra's deck is more casual than anything (and casual mill is a popular archtype, as both Mind Funeral's and Glimpse the Unthinkable's price tags can attest to). And Legacy/Vintage mill does exist (Painter's Stone combo can get turn 1/2 kills, after all).

Just wanted to say, lol... No front intended.Just wanted to mention that it can be quite demotivating to play mill and get dreamcrushed by a good deck.

btw Painter Stone is foremost a combo and not a mill deck.(and a bad one at that, not even close to tes(variant does not matter) or hightide).
If you would call painterstone a mill deck then helm of obedience would be aswell...Or even hightide at that.
Mill is not defined by that it wins by the opponent not being able to draw a card.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: JohnnyMayHymn on July 10, 2012, 09:21:20 AM
^ so.. what is a "good deck"?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Pencil on July 10, 2012, 10:06:41 AM
Hmm what do you want?A definition or an example?

Per definition a good deck is defined by winning often (pretty lame and circular yeah).But I can`t think of any other way to describe it.
Good is normally relative to the meta of the tournament/environment.(so to say when you know that Deck A will be played by 90% of the field, and Deck B got a 70% win percentage against Deck A then Deck B would be a good deck for that tournament/environment.)

But even though I said that being a good deck is relative in magic rather than objective most of the decks played in a tournament will have an overwhelming win percentage vs mill.I hope you get what I am trying to say.If not please let me know so I can rephrase myself.

For an examples just look some winning decks up at starcitygames I guess.You can summarize all the Decks into 3 very broad categorize.

Aggro, Control and Combo.

Aggro will generally try to kill the opponent with their animals and use their spells to kill the animals of the opponent or to burn.Here you can separate into fast aggro and mid range aggro(very general and inexact.Examples: Goyfsligh,Zoo,Boros)

Control will generally try to stall the game and eventually win someway later.Here you can separate into "Draw-go" and "Tap out" control.Draw-go will mostly play instants,counter your stuff and draw cards in your end of turn.Thats why "draw go" because their turn will most likely look like that.They will draw a card and say go.Tap our is more proactive in that it tries to just flood the board with better stuff than you.(Examples:Mono-U control,Esperblade,ubg loam control,solar flare)

Combo will just try to play unfair and win through some combos(duh).Here you can separate into fastcombo which just ignores the opponent mostly (belcher,dredge) and slow combo which tries a more solid approach.(high tide,the epic storm)

And finally there are obv the hybrids between the 3 MAIN archetypes like aggro-control,combo-control and aggro-combo.

Just to give you an overview what generally is perceived as a good deck(though they must not necessary be a good choice)

Maybe that was too much now,if so I am sorry.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on July 10, 2012, 12:54:45 PM
As of late, we're seeing less of the three main archtypes in Standard and a large number of the combinations. Mono-Blue Control has died out in favor of U/B Control, which is hyper-aggressive after turn 5, and U/R Delver, which is closer to an aggro deck than anything. Red Deck Wins is still around, but now it likes it when the game drags on (Shrine of Burning Rage). Frites is less a combo deck than a reanimator/combo/control deck. Hell, even Kessig isn't pure aggro. The last real aggro decks in standard are Tempered Steel, Humans, and Zombies, and those have mixed results at tournaments (not that they can't win, they just like to swing back and forth). There isn't a pure combo deck in Standard at all, at least none that I've seen.


Standard is fucked up.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on July 10, 2012, 02:31:34 PM
Ummm... Channel + Fireball.....? God I feel old....
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: sirpercival on July 10, 2012, 02:40:14 PM
Ummm... Channel + Fireball.....? God I feel old....

Lol!  You're where I'm at.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on July 10, 2012, 02:44:40 PM
Well technically by the time I was really playing, Channel + Fireball wasn't in Type 2 but in Type 1 and custom rule tourneys. And I never had the money to keep up with a tourney scene anyway... best I could do was take tips from Inquest magazine (before it went all hipster and sucky and called itself Inquest Gamer) and try to crush the four other people that I knew that played in small town. Heh, Anybody remember the cumulative upkeep card from Weatherlight called Furnace something? I think I managed to kill myself with it once...
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: sirpercival on July 10, 2012, 02:49:49 PM
Well technically by the time I was really playing, Channel + Fireball wasn't in Type 2 but in Type 1 and custom rule tourneys. And I never had the money to keep up with a tourney scene anyway... best I could do was take tips from Inquest magazine (before it went all hipster and sucky and called itself Inquest Gamer) and try to crush the four other people that I knew that played in small town. Heh, Anybody remember the cumulative upkeep card from Weatherlight called Furnace something? I think I managed to kill myself with it once...

Ah, weatherlight.

I started playing around Revised... took a hiatus around the time the changed the card format/visuals, and then picked it up again for the Mirrodin block.  Then stopped, mostly for good.  I never played much in tournaments, just around the house with my dad & brothers.  We did set up some awesome Emperor & 5-Color games... and 2-headed Giant was the usual game.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on July 11, 2012, 12:26:39 AM
I refuse to play non-Draft tournament games, because I am the poors, so I can't afford nice cards.  :( Draft means everyone is on an equal level anyways, so...

And I'm pretty aware that Mill is not too effective once you can counter it; however, against the decks that people near me play (namely, the one guy who plays consistently runs a zombie token deck (he's hit over a million Zombies once, with that one Black/Blue Zombie that makles killing a zombie damage you to prevent being destroyed. I won by playing a single Suture Priest; let's just say that he took 500,000 damage the next round...) and an aggro self-mill deck (it is pretty much made up of cards that get stronger based off the creature's in his graveyard, and he's working on getting that one card that gives graveyards hexproof)), I have only lost once, and that was because of severe mana drought on my part.

So it works for my purposes; I actually made one guy stop playing when I played a game of Two-headed Giant (2x Jace's Erasure+Double drawing+targeting only one person's 60 card deck while my partner guarded us= fun times).
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Pencil on July 11, 2012, 05:49:30 AM
As of late, we're seeing less of the three main archtypes in Standard and a large number of the combinations. Mono-Blue Control has died out in favor of U/B Control, which is hyper-aggressive after turn 5, and U/R Delver, which is closer to an aggro deck than anything. Red Deck Wins is still around, but now it likes it when the game drags on (Shrine of Burning Rage). Frites is less a combo deck than a reanimator/combo/control deck. Hell, even Kessig isn't pure aggro. The last real aggro decks in standard are Tempered Steel, Humans, and Zombies, and those have mixed results at tournaments (not that they can't win, they just like to swing back and forth). There isn't a pure combo deck in Standard at all, at least none that I've seen.


Standard is fucked up.

Well, when the main designer decides that mana leak is too strong a card you know something is wrong....
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: johnboy069 on July 11, 2012, 02:58:22 PM
Ummm... Channel + Fireball.....? God I feel old....

Lol!  You're where I'm at.

+1. I remember Stasis and Kismet lol. Last year was the 1st time I ever did draft. It was the M12 prerelease one week and New Phyrexia the next time. I felt lost lol.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on July 11, 2012, 03:06:13 PM
My first purchase of M:tG was the last deck box of Ice Age the store had. I probably have the snow-casted lands in my collection somewhere from that starter deck.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on August 04, 2012, 11:02:18 PM
I am currently drooling.

Why?

I just found out about Consecrated Sphinx.

Curse of Echoes+Jace's Erasure+Anything that makes you draw cards+Consecrated Sphinx is... fun, to say the least.

Let's say that Atmydc is Jace's Ingenuity (Draw 3 cards). Apply Curse of Echoes to yourself.

Play Jace's Ingenuity; you draw 3, your opponent gets milled for 3.
Then they get a copy of it; they draw 3 cards, you draw 6, they get milled for 6.

Add a second Curse of Echoes to yourself, and another Jace's Erasure... hell, another copy of Consecrated Sphinx, and that example goes from 9 cards drawn/milled to 54/27 cards milled/drawn; if that's too much of a stretch for you, drop a Consecrated Sphinx and it's 30/15, and that second Curse of Echoes to just get 18/9.

Which is not shabby at all, especially if you have a way to shuffle all that back into your library.

Hmm... a question, tangentially related to the above: Does Cackling Counterpart duplicate any Level counters on a creature? Or would you have to level up that Willbender or Halimar Wavewatch again?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: DonQuixote on August 05, 2012, 12:44:22 AM
Just popping into the thread to remind everyone of that first game you played against a smartass with a Stasis deck.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: sirpercival on August 05, 2012, 06:41:44 AM
Just popping into the thread to remind everyone of that first game you played against a smartass with a Stasis deck.

That was my dad...
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on August 05, 2012, 01:10:12 PM
Hmm... a question, tangentially related to the above: Does Cackling Counterpart duplicate any Level counters on a creature? Or would you have to level up that Willbender or Halimar Wavewatch again?

No. Clone effects do not copy counters.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on August 05, 2012, 06:50:06 PM
Good to know; I needed to know if I could clone something crazy up...

But having 10 Fire Servants multiplying Sorcery damage by x1024 is still totally legal, right (or would it just be x11)? Just like having a pair of Suture Priests cause 2 damage whenever another player puts a creature into play?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Pencil on August 05, 2012, 07:02:57 PM
Good to know; I needed to know if I could clone something crazy up...

But having 10 Fire Servants multiplying Sorcery damage by x1024 is still totally legal, right (or would it just be x11)? Just like having a pair of Suture Priests cause 2 damage whenever another player puts a creature into play?

The multiplying is cumulative yes.The thing about copying a card is that you copy the card (duh) not tokens on it since they are not part of the card.
By leveling you put counter on the creature.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on August 05, 2012, 09:15:28 PM
Ha! Got into an argument about Fire Servant; the other guy obviously had D&D on the brain.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Pencil on August 06, 2012, 05:01:03 AM
Just so you belief me:

Quote
8/15/2010: If you control more than one Fire Servant, the effects are cumulative. Two such effects will cause damage from red instant or sorcery spells you control to be multiplied by four; three such effects will cause damage from red instant or sorcery spells you control to be multiplied by eight.
-Magiccards.info (http://magiccards.info/query?q=fire+servant&v=card&s=cname)
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on August 06, 2012, 11:56:57 AM
Oh, I believe you.

Now I need to punch someone in the face. Hard.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Halinn on August 06, 2012, 12:30:47 PM
M:TG does real doubling, not silly D&D doubling.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on August 07, 2012, 02:28:43 PM
Can anyone give me the loop on Innistrad and their opinions of it? I got into a hiatus but i'm looking to get back into it through Cockatrice someday soon.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Pencil on August 07, 2012, 07:10:07 PM
What do you want?Standard meta?Impact on other formats?ALL cards?Story?Important cards?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on August 07, 2012, 10:32:27 PM
What do you want?Standard meta?Impact on other formats?ALL cards?Story?Important cards?

The meta right now, impact on other formats, important cards... I did play until Innistrad was released, so i know the meta until then, at least.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Pencil on August 08, 2012, 03:23:16 AM
The Mainactor in the format was and probably still is is Delver.
(click to show/hide)
It is a tempo deck and plays a butt full off cantripsand "tempoish" cards like bounce and counter in combination with
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Some played Geist of saint traft(you will see him later) or lingering souls(also later)

Then there was U/B control which is pretty much the definition of Draw-Go control.Mashing some counter and removal.Pretty much nothing that new.

Another "control" was Esper control which was Tap out in style.Getting wrath effect mashing suntitan and playing
(click to show/hide)
and
(click to show/hide)
To metion is here that not all variants played unburial rites.

Another Deck was still some combination of Primeval ramp.Important cards to note were
(click to show/hide)
in combination with inkmoth nexus.
(click to show/hide)

Another popular archetype was R/G Aggro revolving arround
(click to show/hide)
and swords+ kessig wolf run pretty much.

And there were various Birthing pod midrange decks.

Furthermore there was All kind of tribal human decks.

Honorable mentions go to:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)


Since m13 is pretty new there probably isn`t a dominant archetype yet but till now Delver was definitively the dominant.

In Legacy Delver and Lingering souls had a big impact aswell.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on August 08, 2012, 03:29:44 AM
Hum. So the meta stayed basically the same. Mono-U tempo with a bit of U/W; I don't actually like playing Tempo decks, preferring combo or control. Consistency is nice, but meh... Before it went out of Standard, Caw Go was totally dominant and i refused to play it, preferring to rely on artifact decks with Tezzeret.

IDK why they're making U/W so strong in this cycle. Where's the love for black? :(
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Pencil on August 08, 2012, 03:35:56 AM
whoopsie daisy.I forgot Mono B zombies splashing R or U

Here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45835) is just a List since there were many important cards and I am lazy  :p

Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: DonQuixote on October 01, 2012, 02:28:44 PM
Anyone with the knowledge and patience to teach me how to build and play a good Izzet deck?  I've been trying to cobble something together, but I'm fairly certain I'm doing everything wrong forever.

It doesn't help that I never really grasped the actual metagame.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sohala on October 03, 2012, 12:59:39 PM
I had someone suggest to me at the prerelease that an Izzet deck will not be that strong, but rather throwing Izzet spells into a werewolf deck would be the way to go. I don't know one way or the other, but thought I would mention it.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on October 04, 2012, 01:43:21 PM
Anyone with the knowledge and patience to teach me how to build and play a good Izzet deck?  I've been trying to cobble something together, but I'm fairly certain I'm doing everything wrong forever.

It doesn't help that I never really grasped the actual metagame.

Depends on the format. In Modern, Through the Breach is technically Izzet-aligned and is fairly easy to build (save for Through the Breach costing around $10 a pop). In Standard, we have U/R Delver and RUG Ramp, although the latter isn't exactly top-notch and the former is annoying to play against.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: sirpercival on October 31, 2012, 08:28:43 PM
Alright, some decks to critique.  I've been going nuts on Cockatrice lately...


(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

And then this one... which needs major work.

(click to show/hide)

Any comments/suggestions??  (On any of them...)
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: DonQuixote on November 01, 2012, 12:51:17 PM
Any reason you didn't go with the Earthcraft and Squirrel Nest combo for the squirrel deck?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: sirpercival on November 01, 2012, 02:01:14 PM
Any reason you didn't go with the Earthcraft and Squirrel Nest combo for the squirrel deck?

Because... I didn't know about earthcraft?  Lol.  I'll definitely add that in.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: DonQuixote on November 01, 2012, 03:54:07 PM
Nothing like infinite squirrels to spice up a game.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: sirpercival on November 01, 2012, 04:03:50 PM
Nothing like infinite squirrels to spice up a game.

Lol. That saproling deck is ridiculous, though... I had two Doubling Seasons in play and dropped a Mycoloth, devouring 10 saprolings.  The same turn, I also played two Coat of Arms.

The following upkeep, I had 320 320/320 saprolings.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: littha on November 01, 2012, 07:25:20 PM
I once ran a fun deck that generated infinite 3/3 golems.

Krark Clan Ironworks (Sacrifice an artifact, add 2 to your mana pool)
2x Myr Retriever (when Myr retriever enters the graveyard return an artefact from your graveyard to your hand)
Golem Foundry (whenever you cast an artifact spell, put a token on golem foundry. remove 3 tokens to put a 3/3 golem token into play.)

It was awesome... and entirely in mirrodin block. You could pull off infinite damage using a diciple of the vault instead of the foundry which helps with the speed too as the whole combo at that point (assuming you keep a retriever in your hand before the combo) is 7 mana.

Still, combo decks are entertaining but not usually that good...
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Bauglir on November 10, 2012, 07:27:02 AM
Still, combo decks are entertaining but not usually that good...
Stifle Progenitus (also Akroma, Angel of Wrath, though no stifling needed here) into your graveyard while you have a Cairn Wanderer on the battlefield, opponent just clears the battlefield without targeting anything. Fffffffffff...
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on November 10, 2012, 10:36:23 AM
Still, combo decks are entertaining but not usually that good...
Stifle Progenitus (also Akroma, Angel of Wrath, though no stifling needed here) into your graveyard while you have a Cairn Wanderer on the battlefield, opponent just clears the battlefield without targeting anything. Fffffffffff...
Progenitus' shuffle effect is a replacement ability, not an activated or triggered one. You cannot physically Stifle it. The only way to stop it from shuffling back in is if he's killed while Humility is on the battlefield. You can Stifle Emrakul's trigger and have Cairn Wanderer steal his protection effects, but you'd be better served to just reanimate Emrakul for that same 5 mana with something like Beacon of Unrest.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Tr011 on November 11, 2012, 09:08:57 AM
If you want to stifle, go StifleNought.
But I think topic was creature-free, maybe just go for a good old creature-free burn deck (not as good as burn with 12-14 creatures, but good enough to kill any casual deck).
Lava Spike, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Magma Jet, Flame Rift, Rift Bolt, Price of Progress, Fireblast, maybe Incinerate...
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: DonQuixote on March 10, 2013, 07:22:36 PM
Thoughts on this casual Izzet deck?  I've been trying to keep to watermarked cards as much as possible, though that's not exactly a rule.  The general goal of the deck is to keep saying no until you can field a dragon...or until they die to Gelectrode pinging.

Creatures
4 Gelectrode (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292731)
4 Goblin Electromancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253548)
2 Hypersonic Dragon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253655)
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253626)
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96952)

Instants
2 Blustersquall (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253582)
4 Cyclonic Rift (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270798)
4 Electrolyze (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96829)
4 Fire // Ice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292753)
4 Izzet Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253528)
2 Street Spasm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265384)

Lands
11 Island (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=95107)
1 Izzet Guildgate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=270961)
11 Mountain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=95096)
1 Steam Vents (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253682)

Sorceries
4 Mizzium Mortars (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253632)
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on March 11, 2013, 02:57:11 AM
Thoughts on this casual Izzet deck?  I've been trying to keep to watermarked cards as much as possible, though that's not exactly a rule.  The general goal of the deck is to keep saying no until you can field a dragon...or until they die to Gelectrode pinging.

*snip*

I'm not up on the latest sets (new Ravnica block came out recently I think)and what is in which format, but this isn't Type 2 is it?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 11, 2013, 03:43:19 AM
It's not type 2, no. Fire//Ice puts it past Modern into Legacy so it fits into the "casual" format with legacy legality but not legacy power level.

I'm not up on the latest block either so I can't help much. I'd definitely find some more Guildgates and/or some Izzet Boilerworks if you can't field more of the rare lands.

You really want some more drawing in there or you're likely to peter out if you don't get lucky and pull a threat they can't answer. Not sure what specifically, I don't know if there is any good drawing with the Izzet watermark. Compulsive Research and Telling Time were both in Ravnica but not watermarked.

Inicdentally, I saw the (over a year old) discussion about discard decks on the other MTG thread on this board and it brought to mind this build, which is what I'd probably go with if I was buying a new casual 1v1 deck.

Swamp x22
(22 Land)

Mindlash Sliver x4 (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=118867)
Ravenous Rats x4 (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=338404)
Augur of Skulls x4 (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=132224)
Oona's Prowler x4 (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146582)
Hypnotic Specter x4 (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190566)
Guul Draz Specter x2 (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183418)
(22 Creatures)

The Rack x4 (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109725)

Raven's Crime x4 (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153487)
Hymn to Tourach x4 (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159180)

Dark Ritual x4 (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221510)
(16 Other Spells)

Picking up on that conversation, discard can work pretty well in 1v1 casual (1v1 only. Single target discard is awful in multiplayer.) It's not really analogous to a permission deck because it works best in an aggro configuration. Discard attached to cheap creatures with some beaters thrown in. Oona's Prowler is perfect in the latter role because its "drawback" for being a 3/1 flyer for 2 feeds into exactly what you want your deck to be doing anyway. Dark Ritual into Hypnotic Specter was the original backbreaking turn 1 play and it's still fun, if significantly less powerful, now.

The other reason discard is not analogous to permission is that you can't counter lands but you can discard them just like any other card. That means that, if the discard engine is functioning, the opponent's mana base will be shaky at best and a lucky random discard off Hymn to Tourach can be crippling for a while.

The worst matchup is other aggro decks but in those games The Rack and Guul Draz Specter will go off more often. If I was the type to build a sideboard for a casual deck, I'd probably put some Quest for the Nihil Stone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198386) in it for that sort of matchup.

Raven's Crime could be a number of other 1 mana discard sorceries. Thoughtseize would obviously be ideal but is never likely to be in budget for me. Inquisition of Kozilek was probably the runner up. Raven's Crime goes for the reach angle, if I get mana flooded it's something to do with excess land (as more than 4 is really not necessary.) Inquisition is more aggressive. If I can strip a critical low cost creature they were going to stabilize with, that's great, and if there's nothing nonland or CMC 3 or below I've probably already won.

This all applies to a casual meta, of course. This is nothing that would be close to legacy viable.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: DonQuixote on March 11, 2013, 03:59:48 PM
I'm not up on the latest sets (new Ravnica block came out recently I think)and what is in which format, but this isn't Type 2 is it?

Nah, strictly casual.  We don't really pay attention much to format, though we tend to avoid mixing card frame types for aesthetic reasons.

I'm not up on the latest block either so I can't help much. I'd definitely find some more Guildgates and/or some Izzet Boilerworks if you can't field more of the rare lands.

I always end up feeling bad playing the boilerworks, since they bounce a land and come into play tapped.  I'd probably field more guildgates, if anything, but I don't tend to run into many color issues.  Hopefully, I'll pull more Steam Vents from Dragon's Maze packs.  I'll tinker with it and see if adding more guildgates slows me down too much.

You really want some more drawing in there or you're likely to peter out if you don't get lucky and pull a threat they can't answer. Not sure what specifically, I don't know if there is any good drawing with the Izzet watermark. Compulsive Research and Telling Time were both in Ravnica but not watermarked.

Well, the watermarking isn't a hard and fast rule, hence Fire // Ice.  I'm a bit surprised that I'd need more card draw, though.  I don't play against many counter-based decks, so I tend to be able to burn down any creatures they field.  One Gelectrode and a Mizzium Mortars can take out something with six toughness, so they really have to work to keep something out.  I also figured that the card draw from Electrolyze and Izzet Charm would be enough, but I'll root around and see if there's anything I can shoehorn in there.  Maybe replace the Hypersonics with Prophetic Bolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=338392)?



Inicdentally, I saw the (over a year old) discussion about discard decks on the other MTG thread on this board and it brought to mind this build, which is what I'd probably go with if I was buying a new casual 1v1 deck.

*snip*

Picking up on that conversation, discard can work pretty well in 1v1 casual (1v1 only. Single target discard is awful in multiplayer.) It's not really analogous to a permission deck because it works best in an aggro configuration. Discard attached to cheap creatures with some beaters thrown in. Oona's Prowler is perfect in the latter role because its "drawback" for being a 3/1 flyer for 2 feeds into exactly what you want your deck to be doing anyway. Dark Ritual into Hypnotic Specter was the original backbreaking turn 1 play and it's still fun, if significantly less powerful, now.

You said you're not quite up on the latest block, so I'm going to throw vaguely relevant things in your direction.  This is based on the assumption of creature-based aggro/discard.
Mental Vapors (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366373)
Slate Street Ruffian (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366366)
Wight of Precinct Six (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366239)

Given the return of the Dimir, there are also a lot of things that mill until they hit a land.  Not exactly discard, but close enough that it might be worth mentioning.

I don't know much about playing black, mind you, so I don't have much advice off the top of my head.  I'll try to poke around a little later.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on March 11, 2013, 08:15:17 PM
Nah, strictly casual.  We don't really pay attention much to format, though we tend to avoid mixing card frame types for aesthetic reasons.
Hmm, I was going to suggest looking at UR Magnivore, UR Snapcaster,  or Quicksilver Dagger/Horseshoe Crab ping. But if you're trying to keep it to watermarked (the penny just dropped on that remark  :banghead) and not just a UR theme I'm going to have to sift through the grey matter a bit more. After another coffee.

Or two.

Oh, and I love Izzet Guildmage. Why not some of the Shadowmoor cards? The set that actually had UR Duergars and Donkey things in it.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: DonQuixote on March 11, 2013, 11:17:22 PM
Hmm, I was going to suggest looking at UR Magnivore, UR Snapcaster,  or Quicksilver Dagger/Horseshoe Crab ping. But if you're trying to keep it to watermarked (the penny just dropped on that remark  :banghead) and not just a UR theme I'm going to have to sift through the grey matter a bit more. After another coffee.

Well, suggest away, anyway.  I always love having ideas to tinker with, and looking at the decklists, even if I don't use them, will still give me a better idea of what I should be doing.

I've actually used Magnivore before in a hilarious blue-red mill that ran on things like putting Dual Casting (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240138) on Gelectrode, suspending Wheel of Fate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=113528) and unloading a bunch of instants topped by a Brain Freeze, and other shenanigans.  It was cute.

Oh, and I love Izzet Guildmage. Why not some of the Shadowmoor cards? The set that actually had UR Duergars and Donkey things in it.

The Duergars were actually RW, for the record.  And the Noggles tend to push a bit more in...I don't actually know what direction, but some direction.  I'm really liking the instant and sorcery focus at the moment, since it lets me clamp down with Gelectrode.

That said, I'll give Shadowmoor a look-over later this week.  More hybrid is always a good thing.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on March 12, 2013, 12:01:02 AM
Well, suggest away, anyway.  I always love having ideas to tinker with, and looking at the decklists, even if I don't use them, will still give me a better idea of what I should be doing.

K. So it was UR Magnivore. Focused wholly and solely on using Sorcery's to slow your opponent down until you got a Magnivore out. Or Niv-Mizzet (usually a one of).
Cards like Eye to/of Nowhere, Demolish, Fire//Ice, Wildfire.
There was a Sorcery style Shock in there, more Land destruction and bounce. Just to give you an idea of what the deck does... Sorry to be so vague, I'll get the deck list when I can. I'm sure I've got it somewhere at home...

Snapcaster Mage decks had a stint in T2 in the block with Vampires and Werewolves. It was early/mid tempo aggro control. An iconic card in that was the U for a 1/1 Human that flipped to being a 3/3 or 3/2 Bug flying thing. At least, iconic for me, as I always seemed to get it in the handful of games I played the deck.

UR ping was Invasion/Apocalypse era. Horseshoe Crab, Quicksilver Dagger, Minotaur Illusionist, Prodigal Sorceror, Counterspell.
That being said it was more of a muck around, and was made before any of us really got into MtG and competitive play.

Quote
The Duergars were actually RW, for the record.  And the Noggles tend to push a bit more in...I don't actually know what direction, but some direction.  I'm really liking the instant and sorcery focus at the moment, since it lets me clamp down with Gelectrode.

That said, I'll give Shadowmoor a look-over later this week.  More hybrid is always a good thing.

Yes, they were RW. Thank you for that  :)
Erm, it wasn't Shadowmoor in particular I was talking about. Just the set with the Noggles in. I didn't really see much of that set, so there could be gems in there. The whole Lorwyn block had nice stuff in it though. Special memories of the first two sets... ahh, 5 colour control... so much fun.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: DonQuixote on March 14, 2013, 06:19:04 PM
K. So it was UR Magnivore. Focused wholly and solely on using Sorcery's to slow your opponent down until you got a Magnivore out. Or Niv-Mizzet (usually a one of).
Cards like Eye to/of Nowhere, Demolish, Fire//Ice, Wildfire.
There was a Sorcery style Shock in there, more Land destruction and bounce. Just to give you an idea of what the deck does... Sorry to be so vague, I'll get the deck list when I can. I'm sure I've got it somewhere at home...

Sounds fun.  I'll see if I can dig up some Magnivores and give it a whirl.

Snapcaster Mage decks had a stint in T2 in the block with Vampires and Werewolves. It was early/mid tempo aggro control. An iconic card in that was the U for a 1/1 Human that flipped to being a 3/3 or 3/2 Bug flying thing. At least, iconic for me, as I always seemed to get it in the handful of games I played the deck.

Yeah, less enthusiastic about forking over the $20-a-pop for snapcasters.  Delver of Secrets is definitely something I'll toy around with.

UR ping was Invasion/Apocalypse era. Horseshoe Crab, Quicksilver Dagger, Minotaur Illusionist, Prodigal Sorceror, Counterspell.
That being said it was more of a muck around, and was made before any of us really got into MtG and competitive play.

I actually have almost all those cards, despite it being something like thirteen years ago.  Of course, now you have things like Goblin Fireslinger and Prodigal Pyromancer lying around, not to mention Gelectrode.  Everybody loves Quicksilver Dagger, though.

Yes, they were RW. Thank you for that  :)
Erm, it wasn't Shadowmoor in particular I was talking about. Just the set with the Noggles in. I didn't really see much of that set, so there could be gems in there. The whole Lorwyn block had nice stuff in it though. Special memories of the first two sets... ahh, 5 colour control... so much fun.

Lorwyn is one of those blocks that I really regret missing.  It's just so silly.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on March 17, 2013, 11:30:00 PM
Sounds fun.  I'll see if I can dig up some Magnivores and give it a whirl.
Sorry, I've in a self-imposed exile from the internet and computer for the past half a week (visiting g/f). I'll try get the list tonight.

Yeah, less enthusiastic about forking over the $20-a-pop for snapcasters.  Delver of Secrets is definitely something I'll toy around with.
Definitely understandable. One of the things that shits me with card games (not even mentioning them bringing out the legendary rarity... silliest idea ever imo)

Lorwyn is one of those blocks that I really regret missing.  It's just so silly.
Probably one of my favourite sets to play standard with. As a side note Ravnica and the return to Mirrodin (with Phyrexia) sets (best memory if you haven't noticed) were good fun as sealed.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 18, 2013, 12:32:40 AM
If you're looking for a Magnivore list, this (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Standard_UR_Magnivore_deck) is a fairly typical example.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on March 20, 2013, 12:43:55 PM
Anybody willing to shoot me some pointers?

I've got a temporary playing partner for M:tG and i realized that none of my old standby decks are blue...
So i'm looking for some things in the 2013 core set to build a "knowledgeable" blue/red deck. I dunno if Index is 2013 core but I like that card so i'm looking for card retrieval, deck organization, and then some creatures in red and blue to set up kills with (or options like landwalks, and something to counter flying)

Index, Encrust, exile, landwalk, double strike, flying 9or a counter to it),

 perhaps some proliferate? whats that poison clasp card thing with proliferate from? its in a duel deck my buddy let me play with and I think its taken me five games to get the hang of it.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Halinn on March 21, 2013, 01:40:44 AM
Last I played (2007-8 or so... wow it's been a long time), MTG Salvation (http://mtgsalvation.com) was the best place in general for Magic (other sites covering specific formats better, but this one being the most all-round and most accessible place). I suggest giving that site, mainly the forums, a look for any advice you might need.

Index (http://magiccards.info/m13/en/55.html) is, in fact, in Magic 2013
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on March 21, 2013, 08:39:35 AM
Another slightly different take on UR Magnivore

4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Pyroclasm
4 Stone Rain
3 Wildfire
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Eye of Nowhere
2 Counsel of the Soratami
4 Demolish
4 Compulsive Research
1 Tidings

3 Magnivore

11 Island
8 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef

Sideboard
3 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Keiga, the Tide Star
2 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
2 Mana Leak
1 Tidings
3 Icy Manipulator
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 21, 2013, 04:45:49 PM
Anybody willing to shoot me some pointers?

I've got a temporary playing partner for M:tG and i realized that none of my old standby decks are blue...
So i'm looking for some things in the 2013 core set to build a "knowledgeable" blue/red deck. I dunno if Index is 2013 core but I like that card so i'm looking for card retrieval, deck organization, and then some creatures in red and blue to set up kills with (or options like landwalks, and something to counter flying)

Index, Encrust, exile, landwalk, double strike, flying 9or a counter to it),

 perhaps some proliferate? whats that poison clasp card thing with proliferate from? its in a duel deck my buddy let me play with and I think its taken me five games to get the hang of it.

Contagion Clasp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194341) was in the Elspeth vs Tezzeret deck. That was a pretty solid deck.

U/R tends more to aggro than what you seem to be aiming for but it's not impossible to go controllish (though U/R control is often more big mana with X spells as finishers than classic U permission control.) Index isn't bad, but it's negative card advantage so I don't know that I'd recommend it.

Are you going for a specific format? 2013 doesn't have much in U that would work all that well in the deck you seem to be angling for.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on March 21, 2013, 09:45:54 PM
I don't have a specific format in mind, just trying to keep my initial purchases to core set at the moment. As self regulation not to buy fat packs in every set thats out right now in essence.... I'm not really looking for control per se, I want to be able to get my cards, and I want something between u/r that packs a killing punch, I drafted a deck with a friend and I was seriously lacking in punch despite being bale to draw cards and index things as i please.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 24, 2013, 04:34:23 PM
My recommendation is to figure out the deck you want, maybe proxy it to make sure it draws in a satisfactory way, and then buy it online as singles (or from a store if you have one with a big enough selection, but most people don't.)

I really prefer buying singles to buying packs. You get a great deal more for your money and, esp for casual players who don't care about format legality, you can tap into older sets which are cheaper by virtue of not being standard legal.

For instance, Telling Time (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=132071) would be an excellent alternative to Index as it lets you sort the top of your deck while also drawing a card and so not being negative card advantage. It's not sought after for any particular format right now so it wouldn't cost more than 25 cents a card (quite possibly less depending on the site you use.)

Soothsaying (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19807) is even older and more obscure and would let you do serious deep digging over several turns (and has a shuffle mechanism if you dislike the top of your deck.)

There's also Sage Owl (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190188) and Augury Owl (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=271192) which combine an Index effect with a body. I prefer the latter because I'm not a huge fan of cards that let you see the top of your deck without letting you do anything about it if you're about to draw 4 land in a row but if you like Index, Sage Owl is pretty much Index + a flier.

On a slightly different note, Discombobulate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=134749) and Condescend (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189237) give you similar effects + a counterspell.

But leaving the Index issue, where do you want the deck to fall speed wise?

Roughly there are 4 classifications of deck based on speed of kill and mana curve. Aggro is fastest/lowest and Control is slowest/highest. In between there's Aggro/control and midrange with the former being closer to aggro and the latter closer to control.

The classic U/R deck is aggro/control. Specifically weenies and burn backed up by counters and drawing. Is that what you're going for, or something slower?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on March 24, 2013, 11:52:49 PM
Quick addition to amazing "Index" + draw cards.

Ponder and Serum Visions. U cost, Sorcery. Both draw and both have sort the top of your deck out.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on March 25, 2013, 01:18:39 AM
http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Sensei's%20Divining%20Top

Sensei's Divining Top is arguably the best card of this type i can think about right now. When Kamigawa was on Standard, literally EVERY deck ran 4 of these. They're actually good enough to make an appearance in some Legacy decks, too. Costs one, you can control your draw order, and it even has a draw mechanic built into it, although it bites you next turn by effectively robbing you of that turn's draw, but it makes possible to do some really awesome min-maxing.

Plus, it's an artifact, so it can go in any colored deck. Pretty awesome if you ask me.  It's banned on Modern, though, so keep that in mind, if you plan on doing tournaments in that format. (Being banned in a format just goes to show just how powerful this card actually is).

Combine it with Jace, Memory Adept, or  even better, the ever broken Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and you have near to perfect control of your draws. It's pretty awesome.

Blue has always been one of my favorite colors ever since i started Magic. Love it how it is one of the colors where you have to put the most thought into how your deck functions.

Also, Ponder, another really really cool card. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=264444. Like a Sensei's Divining Top + shuffle effect all in one. Look your top three cards with Sensei's Divining Top. Don't like them? Drop a Ponder, dig a land out or something, shuffle your library. Preordain is also pretty neat, look top 2, put any in bottom, then draw a card.

Like i said, near perfect control of your draws is possible.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on March 25, 2013, 08:49:33 AM
Thanks guys, i'll drop my experience so far here. Again after realizing the last of my standing decks leftover from when I played ( sometime back when Weatherlight was in Type II) did not include a blue deck I broke down and spent some money on cards (at Target of all places... mainly because the local card shop closes at 5pm ??? wtf mate?) so I bought the Izzet v Golgarri? duel deck cause a) its 2 built decks that I don't have to work and b) 1 is a u/r and then i bought a deck builders box and a battle booster (which damn it neither has a deck box that fits 60 cards much less a side board....) so in essence my friend and I did a 30 dollar sealed game. He took his fat pack and I took my 30 dollars worth of cards and we played.

I fairly happy with my card selection, I got a Curiosity and an Invisible Stalker (so extra draw per turn thank you very much) a couple of draw 2 cards (one is Faithless Looting), I didn't use them but I got i think five evolving wilderness lands ( the here's a land go get what color you want and shuffle your deck), a Rummaging Goblin (which I'm not using), and maybe something else on the draw front. BUT no Index  :bigeyes 

On the firepower side, 3 Volcanic strengths to go on my 4 red intimidate creatures (yay unblockable!) a smidge of direct damage, a smelt and a torch fiend for artifact control, and a bloody well kick ass artifact called the Trepanation Blade... (mill mill mill mill mill mill millllllllll.....) oh and two scrolls of avacyn ( 2 mana for drawing a card in essence but since its an artifact i can save it for later  underpowered in my deck because it has a bonus of +5 life if you have angels which I don't)

It's much much more hard hitting than my draft deck that i used last week. So i'm liking things so far.

Meta question: If i spent more money and say bought from a supplier the common/uncommon of an entire set, which one would be better? Core Set? or one of the current flavor expansion sets? especially for getting blue and/or artifacts
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on March 25, 2013, 12:37:19 PM
That... Would be unwise. For any edition. You'd end up with tons of useless and outright bad cards, as well as cards that don't work together *at all*. Unless you want to have a neat collection with every card from every edition or something like that, i would refrain from ever buying in bulk like that. Instead, what i'd do, is...

A) Proxy up some cards and test out a few decks to see what works and what doesn't, and then go and buy the cards i proxied and liked.

B) Test decks out in Cockatrice/Magic Workstation, and then go and buy the cards that i don't have.

MTGSalvation forums have tons of cheap decklists in the various threads, even pauper format (commons only), and it's definitely a place to check out if you want to see what the trends currently are on magic, and generally learn a lot about magic. Straight up copying decklists is boring, but checking them out and improving upon them is fun.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on March 25, 2013, 02:42:19 PM
except that if there is a place that for 20 bucks I can 4 of every common/uncommon in the set.... it only takes like 3 commons that I want to make it a better deal than buying boxes and boxes of boosters myself.... admittedly those places also sell every card individually..... and when have you not ended up with hundreds of cards you didn't use? I mean my collection is incredibly piddley and i'll still only use 10% or less of my cards (not counting lands) in standing decks.....

not that I'm necessarily going to do it, but i have always been a person to flip through the cards for ideas, that may change though.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on March 25, 2013, 02:51:05 PM
Well, if it's THAT big of a deal, then of course everything changes :)
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on March 25, 2013, 03:16:02 PM
currently that deal is only for a few sets: Dark Ascension, SCARS OF MIRRODIN, $30 for core 2011, and a few older ones the place hasn't sold out of apparently (older more expensive naturally).
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Halinn on March 25, 2013, 06:45:00 PM
A quick google search found this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25391_Black-And-Silver.html) which has some prices for high-value commons/uncommons by sets. I can't vouch for accuracy, but star city games is generally a reputable site for such things. If you are into trading, maybe you can get some good value from your shop with those full set deals.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on March 25, 2013, 07:13:12 PM
Meta question: If i spent more money and say bought from a supplier the common/uncommon of an entire set, which one would be better? Core Set? or one of the current flavor expansion sets? especially for getting blue and/or artifacts
In my opinion, don't buy a core set.
They are more likely to have the mass amounts of bad cards (well, really, they're just basic) you'll never see played in tournaments.
The expansion sets are where you get your commons and uncommons.

This is from prior experience, though. I haven't played for a few years, and I've known WotC to do some pretty random and stupid things so a complete paradigm shift isn't out of the question.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on March 25, 2013, 07:25:34 PM

They are more likely to have the mass amounts of bad cards (well, really, they're just basic) you'll never see played in tournaments.
The expansion sets are where you get your commons and uncommons.

This is from prior experience, though. I haven't played for a few years, and I've known WotC to do some pretty random and stupid things so a complete paradigm shift isn't out of the question.

From my limited view over the past month it appears they started adding common and uncommons from old sets and expansion sets into core sets after there's no other way for them to played in standard. This might also apply to Rares but i've only seen 15 rares vs like 100 uncommons because of the type of boxes I bought. The thing that I missed that I wouldn't have thought they would do is they brought back Lightning Bolt.... again and again and again. As if making it an uncommon print would make it less powerful?

Anywho its a thought, I might buy a fat pack instead.

As to that starcitygames article its very interesting, I mean he's all about the prices and commodity mechanics but he reinforces the underlying idea that commons and uncommons have power, and people will want to use them, I always found it amusing how much emphasis is put on rares even though it was really like 4 rares out a whole set that were like godly awesome. And apparently now WotC knows that too and just calls those Mythic Rare?

Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on March 25, 2013, 08:55:24 PM
More recent core sets have been seeing reprints of a lot of nice cards from older sets, not enough to justify buying a core set instead of an expansion, but it's getting better.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 25, 2013, 09:24:12 PM
I would buy common/uncommon sets over fat packs most definitely.

Did you say you can get a C/UC playset of Scars of Mirrodin for 20$? Do that. That's a seriously decent deal.

Generally, though, whether you're better off with playsets or singles depends on your budget. Playsets are definitely cheaper per card but they're potentially more expensive per deck and more limiting on your deckbuilding options. If you can afford to buy a playset or two plus a few singles to round things out, that's ideal. If you've only got a very limited budget you may get more deck for your money buying singles.

In this specific case, if you can get a Scars of Mirrodin playset plus some singles from the first mirrodin block, that could set you up with a pretty cool U/R build. Specifically, the artifact land from Mirrodin (Great Furnace and Seat of the Synod, possibly also Darksteel Citadel) sets up metalcraft really nicely. Cheap metalcraft cards and affinity cards also play well together.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on March 26, 2013, 01:54:10 PM
Colour me intriqued... whats metalcraft?

Edit: and I checked on the Scars of Mirridon it would be $30 which for 161 cards x4....
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 26, 2013, 06:58:33 PM
Metalcraft is a keyword ability introduced in the second Mirrodin block. It's a little like threshold only instead of 7 cards in the graveyard, a card with Metalcraft has an additional or more powerful ability if you control 3 or more artifacts.

Galvanic Blast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208251) is a metalcraft card that your U/R would enjoy. Without metalcraft it's Shock (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=245184) but with metalcraft it's superior to lightning bolt.

I like the idea of Metalcraft cards combined with ]Affinity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[affinity) cards from the first Mirrodin block. Specifically Thoughtcast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222732) would be low cost drawing.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on March 26, 2013, 08:43:08 PM
Affinity decks are so cheap... Luckily most of the really broken cards that made it one of the top decks in the history of Standard are banned from Modern, like the artifact lands and more. It just got so ridiculous so fast, it didn't even look like a Standard deck normally runs, it ran more like a Legacy deck.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 27, 2013, 12:00:30 PM
It's not affinity decks in general that are problematic, just the one build with Ravager (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50943), Disciple (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=49090), Skullclamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247201), Cranial Plating (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205328) etc that was out of hand (and in Legacy/Vintage not even that one is a problem.) Interestingly, none of those are actually affinity cards, though Frogmite (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222856) and Myr Enforcer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205296) along with Ornithopter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=206331) were the cheap food that made the rest of the engine function.

If you run affinity without the silly power it can be decent for casual. I have a 60 artifact gimmick build (the first MTG deck I built from scratch) that's affinity based and more fun than degenerate. I also have a U/B Ninja/affinity build (Ninjutsu is excellent synergy with Ornithopter/Frogmite) that is similarly casual level. I have Cranial Plating in that one because it's amusing to stick it on a ninjutsued creature with its BB ability and because the lower relative number of artifacts makes it less swingy.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on March 27, 2013, 09:37:03 PM
Ravager isn't on the banned list. Cranial Plating isn't as well. You still have Inkmoth and Blinkmoth nexus as pseudo-artifact lands, and Darksteel Citadel isn't on the ban list as well. Disciple of the Vault isn't as well.

In fact, the only card on your list banned on Modern is Skullclamp. The rest aren't even on the restricted list... Look at this deck for instance: http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Modern_Affinity_deck

So... Most of the cards that compose the affinity deck are Modern legal. Only the really broken ones are banned.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on March 27, 2013, 10:12:42 PM
So... Most of the cards that compose the affinity deck are Modern legal. Only the really broken ones are banned.

And the lands that made Ravager Affinity so powerful in Standard.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 28, 2013, 05:48:16 AM
Ravager isn't on the banned list. Cranial Plating isn't as well. You still have Inkmoth and Blinkmoth nexus as pseudo-artifact lands, and Darksteel Citadel isn't on the ban list as well. Disciple of the Vault isn't as well.

In fact, the only card on your list banned on Modern is Skullclamp. The rest aren't even on the restricted list... Look at this deck for instance: http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Modern_Affinity_deck

So... Most of the cards that compose the affinity deck are Modern legal. Only the really broken ones are banned.

So you, uh, proved my point that it was one specific build of affinity, not the decktype in general that was problematic?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on March 28, 2013, 05:50:37 AM
So... Most of the cards that compose the affinity deck are Modern legal. Only the really broken ones are banned.

And the lands that made Ravager Affinity so powerful in Standard.

Yeah. The lands were the kicker of the mod, really, but there are still pseudo-artifact lands that double as bodies, although it costs mana to do it. Blinkmoth and Inkmoth Nexus. Means the deck is a bit slower, but not terribly slower, than it was way back when.

Artifact lands in the same block as Affinity was simply a BAD idea. Like, a terribad idea. How could they not foresee the abuse? For real, WoTC does somethings sometimes that can only be justifiable as market plays. They release an über powerful card they know is going to get banned/restricted, but before it is, it creates a huge drive of booster pack sales and general interest in the expansion. Mythic Rares exacerbated this problem even further. Shit, Big Jace peaked at 200$ at some point. That's insane for a Standard card. Stuff like this is killing the metagame, i swear.

I was driven away from Magic for financial reasons. I couldn't keep up that hobby and all of my others, i could only choose to keep all the others, or finance my Magic play. Nowadays it's pretty rare to have a reasonable-cost Standard deck, although everyone keeps trying to. It gets harder and harder to justify having massive expenditure after every 2 or 3 months when new expansions come up and new ideas are thrown in, especially considering that you're not only buying the cards as singles, but also buying packs and boxes, and that adds up fast. In the end you're forced into casual play, which is not nearly as entertaining as keeping to the tournament level play, which gets competitive and costly even at city levels.

I try and get the same enjoyment out of playing online, but i find it to be simply impossible to replicate the feeling. It's one of those games that just have to get physical, you need to be able to touch and feel the cards, buy the high quality plastic casings, buy specialized storage, take care and maintain your collection, even though it's not a complete collection nor it will ever be, but in the end you keep getting attached to your cards.

How i miss 10 years ago when it was much more reasonably priced and i didn't know quite enough about it and enjoyed the casual play much more :(



The mechanic in general is problematic. There are many variations on the deck type, but the most efficient kill-con is Ravager/Disciple two-fer-1. Alternates include various metalcraft direct damage spells and pinging  with light hitters in quantity, while using the utility to keep your opponent locked down. Ravager as an enabler to Disciple is especially devious, but there are a lot of other approaches. Disciple is more of a core card than Ravager is, because the Ravager is more of an enabler to Disciple, but it adds another kill con by itself and is really cost efficient, so the two were born for each other. The reason why it was problematic back then was because it was a block where there wasn't a lot of mana acceleration, and it was an artifact focused mod, with a mechanic that heavily favored heavy artifact decks, meaning abuse was to follow.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 28, 2013, 06:33:35 AM
While I agree with you on Mythics (I've got a real good rant about how they essentially suckered the playerbase into accepting them but this is not really the venue) and Jace (can't explain that one as a mistake like Skullclamp or Tarmogoyf. They just straight up printed an overpowered card so it would sell), I don't put the artifact lands in the same category as that sort of thing.

In the first place, they were hardly a cash grab as they were commons. Secondly, while the effect on the standard and block metas were negative in the short term, Mirrodin was actually a very successful block in terms of public reception, even with the issues in the competitive formats. The artifact lands were a cool and fun idea and if there were negative consequences of R&D going overboard with that block, it still went over better than either Onslaught or Kamigawa blocks which went the other direction power wise. By contrast, Jace and Caw Blade were a much more negative influence on the game (at least from my perspective) even though their negative effect on standard was similar.

I'd say the problem was less with the artifact lands than with the cards that turned them into a game winning engine. I'm rather disapointed wizards decided the artifact lands were a failiure in concept rather than excecution. I would have enjoyed lands with creature types in Lorwyn (which they specifically mentioned were floated by the design team but vetoed mainly based on the precedent of the Mirrodin artifact lands.) A similar thing happened with Storm, where a solid mechanic was tainted by wizards' insistance on printing combo finishers rather than reactive utility (Wing Shards (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wing%20shards) is a good example of what an interesting and non broken storm card looks like.)

Anyway, all this isn't strictly on topic for the deck tips thread.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on March 28, 2013, 09:27:24 AM
While I agree with you on Mythics (I've got a real good rant about how they essentially suckered the playerbase into accepting them but this is not really the venue) and Jace (can't explain that one as a mistake like Skullclamp or Tarmogoyf. They just straight up printed an overpowered card so it would sell), I don't put the artifact lands in the same category as that sort of thing.


[....]

I'd say the problem was less with the artifact lands than with the cards that turned them into a game winning engine. I'm rather disapointed wizards decided the artifact lands were a failiure in concept rather than excecution. I would have enjoyed lands with creature types in Lorwyn (which they specifically mentioned were floated by the design team but vetoed mainly based on the precedent of the Mirrodin artifact lands.) A similar thing happened with Storm, where a solid mechanic was tainted by wizards' insistance on printing combo finishers rather than reactive utility (Wing Shards (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wing%20shards) is a good example of what an interesting and non broken storm card looks like.)

Anyway, all this isn't strictly on topic for the deck tips thread.

Actually your statement is very helpful to me for deck building as for the longest time (mainly because I started after dual lands) i've avoided fancy lands like the plague they are, but it sounds like at least in the scars expansion they are both easy to get and interesting. So it sounds like I should make an effort to replace my basic lands with as many double/triple use lands as possible?

Also the mythic rares, I mentioned them earlier as well, and in essence its WotC making sure that the 4 or 5 more powerful cards they are print are immediately noticed by giving them a different "color" of rarity. It was always the case that you would buy a lot of booster packs and not care about 3/4 of the rares in them but there were four or five or six of those things that you really liked seeing come out. Wizards just made it official.

EDIT: And by after dual lands I mean the original ones.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on March 28, 2013, 03:16:26 PM
Working on a few Commander decks (I almost exclusively play commander nowadays, since it's more of a creative exercise than a competitive event), and I need some input.

Deck 1
(click to show/hide)

Deck 2
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 28, 2013, 08:30:52 PM
Actually your statement is very helpful to me for deck building as for the longest time (mainly because I started after dual lands) i've avoided fancy lands like the plague they are, but it sounds like at least in the scars expansion they are both easy to get and interesting. So it sounds like I should make an effort to replace my basic lands with as many double/triple use lands as possible?

When you say "double/triple use lands" do you mean lands that produce multiple colors or lands with effects besides producing mana?

Either way, yes you should get good lands at any opportunity you have. A good mana base makes a huge difference to a deck's effectiveness. Also, getting lands that do something other than produce mana is an excellent idea as well. If you can put an effect on a land that you would use on a spell, you've essentially added a card slot to your deck and increased the odds of having something relevant at any given time.

Also the mythic rares, I mentioned them earlier as well, and in essence its WotC making sure that the 4 or 5 more powerful cards they are print are immediately noticed by giving them a different "color" of rarity. It was always the case that you would buy a lot of booster packs and not care about 3/4 of the rares in them but there were four or five or six of those things that you really liked seeing come out. Wizards just made it official.

Around when mythics came out someone did the math and determined that mythics at their current distribution do lead to fewer copies per card in circulation than the prior system which can and does drive up prices, esp in expansions (vs core sets) since they see a shorter print run. Jace is a good example of this in action. If you compare his prices to cards like Jitte or Tarmogoyf which were similarly dominant, he was (and still is) orders of magnitude more expensive.

Also, there are crap mythics as much as crap rares and not every chase card is mythic. In fact, one of the primary justifications for mythics when they were first released was that they would specifically not be "chase cards" but rather big splashy effects that were cool and iconic but not 4 ofs in competitive decks. This promise (which was couched in ambiguous language but was absolutely a big part of why there was relatively little backlash over the introduction of mythics) was kept for exactly one block before they went ahead and started printing mythic chase rares.

Working on a few Commander decks (I almost exclusively play commander nowadays, since it's more of a creative exercise than a competitive event), and I need some input.

Yeah, I play commander (though I usually call it EDH) when I play at all (which isn't often these days but that's a function of money as much as anything else. D&D using the SRD and homebrew is lots cheaper than MTG.) I've always prefered multiplayer and commander is a multiplayer format with a wide support base. If I do run into people who play non commander multiplayer, a couple of my decks work well enough if you shuffle the commander in and/or leave it out.

Deck 1
(click to show/hide)

Are you only using artifact counter creatures? If so, unless you're tied to that plan for thematic reasons, there's quite a few other counter producing/counter using cards you might want to look at.

Forgotten Ancient (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220583) seems like an auto include in this deck. Generate counters when anyone plays a spell, then move them around as you like. 

Fertilid (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247335) is decent, if pricy, mana ramp by itself but in a deck that does counter farming it can turn into a mana explosion that vomits all your land onto the field.

Spike Weaver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21179) is an older card that uses counters and can effectively prevent you from losing to combat damage ever if you have a way to put counters on it/ recur it.

Persist is Undying in reverse and can open up some new combo options. Cauldron of Souls (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152065) could be fun with creatures that come into play with counters. Since plus and minus counters cancel each other out, you can use CoS every turn on the same creature and it'll keep coming back, just with one fewer counter than normal (this is potentially decent with things like fertilid.) 

Not sure how much, if any, of that is news to you but that's what came to mind looking at that deck sketch. Was there something specific you were looking for imput on?

Deck 2
(click to show/hide)

This seems fun. I've tried allies a bit in casual but never seen them in commander. Will probably be a difficult deck to make work but ever so amusing when it does. The Mirrorweave trick looks fun, though Turntimber Ranger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=169971) or Hagra Diabolist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197404) might be better targets than the Warlord.

Are you using Changelings at all? A few of them (Taurean Mauler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220453), Mirror Entity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=141818), Chameleon Colossus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220451)) are decent cards in their own right and they'll trigger your allies.

Patriarch's Bidding (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=26747) will help a bit with opponent's wraths. Twilight's Call (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=338399) is similar but helps your opponents more. Still might be worth it.

Cauldron of Souls (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152065) is an alternative form of wrath protection and reusable due to the counter interaction I mentioned above. Because of the way the allies' abilities work you'll lose anything with 1 toughness but you'll still get its ETB trigger and its ability will trigger off all the others.

Riptide Replicator (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=40198) is a second copy of Volrath's Lab.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on March 29, 2013, 04:08:40 PM
Quote
If I do run into people who play non commander multiplayer, a couple of my decks work well enough if you shuffle the commander in and/or leave it out.
My Omnath deck is just a green ramp deck without omnath :-P

Quote
Are you only using artifact counter creatures? If so, unless you're tied to that plan for thematic reasons, there's quite a few other counter producing/counter using cards you might want to look at.
Nah, it just started with a way to abuse Modular creatures, and went from there. The only thing I want to try to keep is creatures who are entirely supported by the counters, so I can undying/persist spam with ooze flux.

Forgotten Ancient (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220583) is in.

Fertilid (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247335) was missed, adding it.

Spike Weaver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21179) is gold. Good find!

Cauldron of Souls (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152065) is in the maybeboard, but will make an acceptable duplicate for Mikaeus in the ooze flux engine.
Quote
Not sure how much, if any, of that is news to you but that's what came to mind looking at that deck sketch. Was there something specific you were looking for imput on?
I'm really just looking for lesser known cards that really impact a proliferate-style deck, as well as ways to increase the reliability of the deck.

Quote
This seems fun. I've tried allies a bit in casual but never seen them in commander. Will probably be a difficult deck to make work but ever so amusing when it does.
Right now the deck is exceedingly vulnerable, which I hope to correct by smoothing out the land base and adding some utility.

Changelings (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220453) are in, and since ally triggers are so valuable on their own, I'm using even the weaker changelings. (the blue one that looks like a ditto is surprisingly good, as it makes Karona an ally.)

Patriarch's Bidding (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=26747) & Twilight's Call (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=338399) seem like great additions. Right now the deck is vulnerable to wraths, and I get far more value out of my ETB triggers than most decks ever will.

Cauldron of Souls (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152065) should work here too. :-D

Riptide Replicator (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=40198) is indeed a second copy of Volrath's Lab.



Very good advice all around. My competitive deckbuilding and my EDH deckbuilding are entirely seperate creatures. With competitive decks, I'm generally looking at a smallish card pool, and I have a similarly small card pool to consider in opposing decks. With EDh, the tempo and speed of decks is much different, and I have to be aware of a huge amount of possible cards. When I build a competitive deck, I can put together the "right" land base for my color combination, and already be at 20/60 cards, competitive decks then use 4-ofs, which trades deck space and utility for reliability. With an edh deck, it's all singletons, and the mana requirements are entirely different. 40 lands, minus 1 for every 2 mana rocks, minimum 35 lands. That leaves 65 singletons to work with, and certain mechanics pop up in the strangest places.

How do you feel about the Phantom (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=37113) creatures? I personally love them. They block their toughness in damage, then only lose 1 counter.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 01, 2013, 08:59:26 AM
Glad at least some of that was on point. The "messing with counters" deck is one I've been thinking about building in various itterations for a long while. Never actually put it together yet but I know the components pretty well by now.

My issue with the phantom creatures is that none of them do much of anything with their counters besides having them and losing them instead of taking damage. My experience is that that's not always enough, esp in multiplayer where every card has to go that much further.

Still, some of them are pretty good deals. Nishoba is a good Reviellark (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152716) target, for example. Phantom Centaur (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=35073) is a good midrange beater with 5 power for 4 CMC, pro B and the phantom ability (which makes it resistant to damage based removal.)

I'd be interested to see full lists of your commander decks if it's not too much trouble. Don't worry about linking to cards, I can search the ones I don't know without much effort.

On a similar note, here's an EDH build I had going a while back. Needs some updating and advice on things to cut would be nice.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on April 01, 2013, 07:32:02 PM
*red deck snip*

Radiate. it applies Overload to any single target instant or sorcery. I can't count the amount of games I've won a game off of Radiate+Seismic Spike

Destroy All Lands, add (2*X)R to your mana pool where X is the total number of lands targeted. If you can't give yourself a winning boardstate in mono red off of 40+ mana, while everyone else is without lands, you never had a chance to begin with.

Also, I'd cut Furnace of Rath. Squee isn't suited to commander damage normally, so the benefit is reduced for you, and it's a HUGE liability, since you can't remove it effectively. You REALLY don't want a Uril deck to only need to do 11 damage to kill you, or worse, a Gisela only needing 6.

Other than that, I would suggest finding an engine to help support the phoenix recursion you have going on.

--

As for my Phantoms, they work as alternate arcbounds for the Mikael+Ooze Flux combo. They are also great for blocking any non-trample creatures.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: sirpercival on April 01, 2013, 07:47:51 PM
Did you guys see the new rules for magic?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sohala on April 01, 2013, 08:50:17 PM
Come again?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: sirpercival on April 01, 2013, 09:31:51 PM
Come again?
Here you go. (https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/241c)
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on April 01, 2013, 10:05:08 PM
Man... It's one of those April Fools that's so well orchestrated, that you don't know if it's telling a lie, or if it's telling the truth, or if it's a combination of both.

Many of the stuff he says makes sense from a commercial standpoint, but it just seems that it's something that would aggravate the existing MtG community to an EXTREME degree, and for a game that's 20+ years in the making... Such a radical change is not in the best interests of the company. Then again, there's stuff like the "Spinal Tap" rule, that simply doesn't make a sliver of sense and is quite frankly, just silly. Also, keeping the word complexity up to 5th grade comprehension level? Now that's just god tier levels of trolling.

It's a good april's fool. It's well written, it leaves you wondering if there isn't some truth in what's there, especially the bit about keeping common's simple, and leaving the more complicated abilities to the rare and uncommon cards. It makes sense, not only from a new player's stand point, but also to prevent that everyone has access to the most powerful and gamechanging cards, which are what drives the sales and tournaments.

Here's me hoping that it's mostly lies, and not the other way around. I like commons with depth and complexity, since that's what you get 90% of the time, and that's what you start off with in every new edition, before you amass a significant amount of the really good cards.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 02, 2013, 08:26:31 AM
As pointed out in the forum discussion for the article, at the very least the "no instants at common" part is bullshit. That would destroy limited play and Magic R&D puts a lot of effort into designing for limited. Probably more than any other single concern.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on April 02, 2013, 11:19:50 AM
If any of this "Make commons & uncommons simpler cards" part is true, then it probably will only apply to Core sets. M13, M14 and so on, so forth... I remember back in the days of 5th and 6th edition, around when i started playing, the core sets were what everyone started with. Didn't have too many complicated cards, the starter decks for them were nice and simple, but taught you well, but it still had useful cards that were useful in main decks. I think throughout all this time, they kept mostly true to that philosophy.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on April 02, 2013, 02:21:03 PM
I found this on mtgsalvation and I'm wondering what you guys think of it.

(click to show/hide)


Its supposed to be built as a super inexpensive deck, but its made me really interested in goblin electromancer and guttersnipe. Its a really direct deck use instants and sorceries to draw cards (which triggers guttersnipe) and then cast the new cards to trigger more guttersnipe and then use the flashback to trigger more guttersnipe. Any ideas on how to protect the guttersnipe from death and dismemberment?

I also don't understand the point to the evolving wilds....

Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on April 02, 2013, 08:43:55 PM
The counter in that deck will be your primary protection for guttersnipe. The burn and delver put pressure on your opponent even if they manage to get rid of guttersnipe.

I'm guessing evolving wilds will be there for mana fixing and deck thinning. I don't think it's necessary for mana fixing alone. Which is why I probably wouldn't put the guildgate in there myself. And having the land come into play tapped with such a low cost deck can be pretty punishing.

Edit: Removed erroneous punctuation.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on April 02, 2013, 10:45:11 PM
I just saw a different version with Arcane Melee, further reducing burn cards and flashback.

Does anybody here know the ruling on how Goblin Electromancer and Arcane Melee interact with the Fireball style spares?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 02, 2013, 11:15:16 PM
8 multicolored sources is a good number in a bicolored deck with that kind of curve. You need to field both R and U quickly and consistently and you won't do that with fewer. This deck has a reasonably tight curve but it won't play like curve aggro. All the drawing gives it lots more late game reach and makes the taplands less of an issue.

I like the deck. For a budget build it has a coherent and interesting gameplan and seems like it would be enjoyable to run.

More counters is the easiest way to protect guttersnipe. Izzet Charm seems like the obvious go to since it also draws and burns if you need that. Probably over the Divinations, 1 Desperate Ravings and 1 Searing Spear.

I wouldn't go with the Arcane Melee version. This is a fast and fairly tightly curved deck. Melee doesn't show up until turn 5 at the earliest. Turn 6 if you want to play Melee and do something else. You shouldn't have time to play it.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on April 03, 2013, 10:33:31 AM
Do you think there's anything wrong with the idea that unless you have a card draw deck like this one you will only see about 12-13 cards of a deck before the game is over? I mean that if I don't pull extra cards per turn everybody assumes that after five card draws the game should have been over?
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on April 03, 2013, 12:58:05 PM
That's not far from the truth. Unless you're playing with or against a control deck, most matches end around the 5th or 6th turn, which means around the 12th or 13th card you saw from your deck. This is in competitive play, ofc. That's the sweet spot most decks attempt to achieve a win.  1st, 2nd or 3rd turn wins are not generally possible without heavy mana acceleration, which isn't available in Standard or Modern most of the time, being more common in legacy play, a way more competitive environment.

Control decks are also fading out, because it's not "fun" to get locked down the entire match while the opponent slowly drains your vitality points. This is by design. We're getting less cards aimed at control, and more cards aimed at combo, tempo and aggro decks. Back in the day you had Winter Orb, Stasis, Smokestack, and many other cards that aided you in locking your opponent down.

I can't remember all the countless matches where i was testing out variations on the Stax deck and the opponent ragequit after not being able to do anything. Stasis was also a fun one to cause ragequits as well. These prison decks, an extreme kind of control deck, aren't fun to play against at all.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on April 03, 2013, 08:55:49 PM
Land destruction. Another one of those decks. Maybe not as frustrating as having all your shit countered, though.

I remember one tournament I played mono green land destruction (Vintage, of course) vsing a Legacy/Vintage faerie aggro/counter deck. Slamming of doors and throwing of decks were had after we went 2 games where he played one spell.

Strip Mine and Sol Ring are OP.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 03, 2013, 09:14:37 PM
Do you think there's anything wrong with the idea that unless you have a card draw deck like this one you will only see about 12-13 cards of a deck before the game is over? I mean that if I don't pull extra cards per turn everybody assumes that after five card draws the game should have been over?

What do you mean "wrong with the idea"? Do I think that idea is accurate? In competitive play, yes it's a good general rule. It's not universally true but it is true often enough that it is worth keeping in mind when building a deck.

What it basically means is, unless you're packing lots of deck manipulation your deck needs to be a consistent, redundant whole. You can't rely on a given card or series of cards showing up in a given game because they mostly won't.

Control deck wise, most matches still end around turn 5-8 or so, they just "end" in the sense that the control deck has achieved board control. It may not have actually won yet but the game is effectively over all the same.

Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on April 03, 2013, 10:00:02 PM
Yes, you're right. Board control is established one way or the other at turns 5~8. Either you win, or you're in a position where you can't lose.

@Elevevated Beast, land destruction as a mechanic is always tough on any deck. Strip Mine & Wasteland give you that ability at T1, but they by themselves aren't really really OP, because in the end you're delaying your own mana curve in order to deny that mana curve to your opponent. It was unbalanced in the environment it was played in, where mana acceleration was something really easy to come by, and T1 big plays were rampant. On the subject of OP Lands, i think the crown goes to Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. It cripples creature based decks, and unless they're packing land destruction, they're stuck with it in play forever. 40 Lands was a deck i played for quite some time when i started to play online. It's a really cool deck.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: dipolartech on April 03, 2013, 10:51:01 PM
So I went shopping... at my local card shop I told you about and learned a few things about how they sell their cards. They of course pull rares and offer them up in jeweler cases up front, but whats interesting is that their uncommons and commons are flat rates, if you want specifics pulled from all the way back to like the m10 or m11 block its 50cents for uncommons and 25cents for commons. Pretty much its all about labor there, its more effort for them track and calculate the 15cents or 25 cents difference in value than its worth. So I've got what I consider a reasonable in person place to buy cards in singletons. But you know what? They have even more full uncommon sets than their website says they do. In fact i went ahead with and purchased the 4x box of uncommons for Gatecrash. Oh and for 40 bucks i got 4200 commons ( in sets of seven hundred cause thats what the box holds?) from innistrad, dark ascension, avacyn restored (1400 of those overkill really), m13, and return to ravinica.

I'll probably go back in a month and get another set of uncommons from something maybe I dunno but right now I'm happy. Also got some Guttersnipes for that deck i posted.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on April 04, 2013, 01:51:15 AM
Strip Mine & Wasteland give you that ability at T1, but they by themselves aren't really really OP, because in the end you're delaying your own mana curve in order to deny that mana curve to your opponent.

This is true, but it wasn't a be-all-end-all statement of the ultimate level of OPness. More a saying, a cliché, a bromide, or all three together if you will.

Edit: Example of the above. Have you ever played League of Legends? The remark "*Character/Item/Monster* OP" is a fairly hackneyed saying.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on April 04, 2013, 02:22:34 AM
Oh, i didn't know you were saying it like that. I thought you were making a serious statement about that card having no place in the game, etc...

Yeah, i played LoL. Heavily. Since open beta to about 8 months ago, when i decided i had enough. I reached what was about the peak of where i could go with the game, i'm simply not that good at it, so 1300 ELO was the ceiling for me. Couple of my friends who transferred over to the Brazilian server are now hovering around 2k ELO(or so lolking says, because ELO is not really shown anymore.).

About old cards... The game was pretty different back then, there were way less mechanics than there are right now, and as such there was a lot of playing around with the mechanics that already existed... Land Destruction was one such mechanic that got played around with a lot. In fact, permanent destruction in general. I remember the time when i MAINDECKED Nevynrall's Disk. Jokulhalps saw a lot of casual play as well. There was a lot of board hate. Discard became a thing with Tempest, and then Urza brought in unprecedented amounts of mana acceleration and artifact play and unique abilities. Those early blocks really WERE kind of broken by today's standard. There's a reason why the focus has been steadily shifting from Legacy to Modern & Standard.

Legacy Play has become kind of boring. People still play Necropotence and win. Bans and restrictions help, but don't fix the problem. Now and then there are really new decks, but mostly? It's the same decks over and over, with new cards being added in, and old cards removed, when it's advantageous to do so. The problem is exacerbated with new cards with new names but same mechanics as older cards, making it possible to have much more than 4 cards with the same ability and CMC.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on April 04, 2013, 09:47:28 PM
I just can't wait til they bring out the Australian server... :love

Back to MtG. There are two decks I like that came out at Worlds during the times I used to play. MUD and the deck that focused around the 3/1 Haste graveyard recurring thing from Torment. It was black and rare. With the Vial from Mirrodin block that allowed you to effectively mulligan you had +90% chance (I think) of getting a winning hand (3rd turn or something, I believe).
They weren't the best (read: most expensive) decks out there, but they did well, and were, to me at least, decks that stood out as interesting/different.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on April 04, 2013, 10:42:08 PM
Ichorid (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=35923) was a pretty competitive deck in extended for a while (back when extended still existed/people still cared about it.) It was kinda the forerunner to Dredge combo.

Legacy wise, I've just looked over the top few decks from the last 3 major Legacy events and I didn't see a single necropotence. Pretty much all the decks I saw drew on recent sets and several of the more popular archetypes are based on cards from recent sets. There also seems to be a pretty decent number of viable archetypes with aggro, combo, and control all well represented.

Legacy is dying out as a format but, IMO, that has less to do with it no longer being a healthy or interesting meta than with the steadily increasing price of admission. The true duals took a giant leap up in price a couple years back and haven't gone back down since. There's a few other extremely expensive cards, Tabernacle being one of them, but true duals are the main culprits. You can't play the vast majority of legacy viable decks without them and reprinting them isn't an option.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on April 04, 2013, 11:55:07 PM
Yes, i had forgotten about that little bit as well. Price of Admission is definitely a thing in legacy. You literally can't build a competitive legacy deck for under 300$. That's how much an effective Goblins mono red will cost you. It's still pretty effective but won't win you any tournaments. I loved played Goblins too, btw. One of the reasons it's way cheaper than the other decks, is because it's mono color. Goblin Piledriver, of course, drives the price up. A lot. http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Goblin%20Piledriver 24,99 Near Mint. Ouch. And you gotta run 4 in most builds. Only that drives the price up to 100$. Then there's all the other cards, and in the end it's about 300$ for the full deck. A bargain in Legacy. Top decks go for more than 1000$ typically. Volcanic Island, UR dual land, one of the most coveted, goes for 139,99. http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=Volcanic+Island&t_all=All&start_date=2010-01-29&end_date=2012-04-22&order_1=finish&limit=25&action=Show%2BDecks&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&auto=Y .

Yeah. Legacy is EXPENSIVE. It's fun to play sometimes on Cockatrice/Magic Workstation, though.


Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Elevevated Beat on April 05, 2013, 12:25:40 AM
Ichorid (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=35923) was a pretty competitive deck in extended for a while (back when extended still existed/people still cared about it.) It was kinda the forerunner to Dredge combo.

Thank you. Was having a mind blank :(

But, yes. Hella expensive to build a (competitive) deck for Legacy.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: littha on April 05, 2013, 02:51:24 AM
It occurs to me that I had better locate and sell some of my older cards... I think I have a foil damnation around here somewhere... Though I think those are only like $50 or so...
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Sinfire Titan on April 05, 2013, 09:16:15 AM
Yeah. Legacy is EXPENSIVE. It's fun to play sometimes on Cockatrice

It used to be fun on Cockatrice, then WotC sent a C&D.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: DonQuixote on April 05, 2013, 02:18:40 PM
Yes.  There's...certainly no way to keep using Cockatrice.

Of course not.

 :whistle
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on April 05, 2013, 05:33:01 PM
Wow... I didn't knew that. This sucks.

In any case, i believe this was sparked by the fact that Cockatrice was getting too popular, more popular than Magic Online, even, possibly. There are alternatives, like Octagon and Magic Workstation, though.

I think part of the reason why they managed to target Cockatrice and not Magic Workstation, for instance, is because of built in mechanics of the M:TG game, and stated goals. Magic Workstation is not sold/distributed as a platform to play Magic: The Gathering online, but rather as a platform for the development and playing of card games, in general, and there are no built in M:TG mechanics inside of Magic Workstation. Rather, the scans, card text & rules, are provided elsewhere, and the program just provides a framework that accepts that format and enables you to play.

I do hope the creator of Cockatrice gets competent legal advice, and that the project is able to be revived, impervious to WoTC's legal claims.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Nytemare3701 on April 05, 2013, 10:52:10 PM
Cockatrice doesn't contain the card images either (it fetches all the cards from Gatherer, as per the terms and agreements by WoTC). It has a specific framework as the default, but can be modified for other games.
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Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: De Molay on June 25, 2013, 06:32:20 PM
Yep, Cockatrice was restored to functionality via abovementioned server so free testing is still possible thankfully.) (Oops, probably I shouldn't have posted it?  :??? :) )

Speaking of Legacy and prices: yes, it's pretty expensive to enter legacy but quite cheap to stay there. That's the huge advantage of eternal formats. Buy your cardpool once and you have to modify it slightly and not too devastating.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Bauglir on July 05, 2013, 03:05:24 AM
So how bout that M14? This card (http://mythicspoiler.com/m14/cards/barrageofexpendables.html) seems like a fun card to build around. I've got a silly idea for a more-or-less budget RG splash W deck that runs burn, some tokens (Young Pyromancer is good for this), and this, relying on Axebane Guardian for the mana ramp and reliability. A little on the slow side, but surprisingly stable for a sacrifice/burn deck, it's looking like. Boros Charm provides some burn or resilience to board wipes, and I might throw in some Rootborn Defenses for more indestructibility and populate. Early game, drop Burning-Tree Emissaries and sac them when they're about to die, late game Assemble the Legion. Might throw in a Voice on account of every GW deck being better with them.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on August 07, 2013, 07:04:04 PM
Barrage may be interesting in standard and limited. Unfortunately, Goblin Bombardment (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4821) is probably better in most instances for formats where it is legal. Might be worth it as a second copy of bombardment in EDH.

The new slivers are somewhat interesting, as much as a look at what abilities are valued higher or lower than previous sliver releases as anything else. Double Strike, flying and lifelink are cheaper (though Essence Sliver used the pre keyword lifelink which meant that multiple instances stacked) while +0/+1 is more expensive.

Functional reprint of muscle sliver means you can run 12 pump sliver grizzly bears if you so choose.

Reprinting Scavenging Ooze is interesting. That came out of the commander precons originally, so it was supposedly balanced for legacy play, not standard.

Shadowborn Apostle makes me wonder about EDH possibilities.

In general I'm seeing lots of fun timmy cards, which seems about right for a core set.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Gazzien on August 23, 2013, 01:56:50 AM
Barrage may be interesting in standard and limited. Unfortunately, Goblin Bombardment (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4821) is probably better in most instances for formats where it is legal. Might be worth it as a second copy of bombardment in EDH.

The new slivers are somewhat interesting, as much as a look at what abilities are valued higher or lower than previous sliver releases as anything else. Double Strike, flying and lifelink are cheaper (though Essence Sliver used the pre keyword lifelink which meant that multiple instances stacked) while +0/+1 is more expensive.

Functional reprint of muscle sliver means you can run 12 pump sliver grizzly bears if you so choose.

Reprinting Scavenging Ooze is interesting. That came out of the commander precons originally, so it was supposedly balanced for legacy play, not standard.

Shadowborn Apostle makes me wonder about EDH possibilities.

In general I'm seeing lots of fun timmy cards, which seems about right for a core set.
As my final post for the night, and as a response to Slivers:
My group mainly plays EDH. With the advent of M14, I can do EDH Slivers.
-laughs maniacally-
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on March 04, 2014, 11:22:20 PM
I just found a pretty neat combo:

Mindcrank + Bloodchief Ascension

Mindcrank mills opponents for a number of cards equal to the damage they take. every time they take damage. Once Bloodchief Ascension has 3 Quest counters on it, any card that enters an opponent's graveyard anywhere deals them 2 damage, and you gain 2 life.

In a single player game, the fastest you can get this combo going is by your opponent's 2nd turn, if you go first (Bloodchief Ascension gains a Quest counter whenever an opponent has taken 2 damage in a turn.) Then, they have to be careful.

After all, any damage they take results in a deck-out, and copious amounts of damage. Each damage you deal to them forces them to mill 1 card, gives you two life, and deals 2 damage to them. It isn't an infinite loop, because it stops as soon as they run out of cards to sacrifice.

Did I mention that this combo is, beyond the first payment, absolutely, perfectly free?

Some other nice combos are:

Solitary Confinement + Eon Hub! Solitary Confinement  gives you Shroud and makes you immune to damage... but you lose your Draw Step, and it gets sacrificed if you can't discard a card when Upkeep rolls around! Good thing Eon Hub removes the Upkeep phase entirely. For everyone.

Then just grab something like Psychic Possession that lets you ignore the fact that you lack a draw step.

A brutal milling combo (that doesn't just nuke decks from orbit) is Jace's Erasure + Notion Thief + Teferi's Puzzle Box. Also known as "Everyone! Put your hand at the bottom of your deck. Now draw that many cards. Oh, wait, Notion Thief means I draw every one of those cards after the first one. Lose that many cards off the top of your deck anyway. Now take your draw phase... which means I get an extra card and you just mill your top one."

You saw the above? Everyone does that every turn. Everyone but you effectively has a hand-size of 1. This is a combo that lets you play a 300+ card deck without having cards you can't find. Just toss a copy of Anvil of Bogardan into your deck, and enjoy the unlimited hand size.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Rubberblock on June 29, 2014, 05:09:28 PM
It's easy enough to make brutal combos, but mostly dependent on the format you're playing.   The issue I have is that a lot of formats (Legacy, Modern in particular) are basically the equivalent of an Soggy biscuit game, with little to no interactivity.   Magic has this weird curve where you at first try to make the best deck possible, and then unless you're playing in tournaments where it's expect of you to, you know, Win with no mercy, it's very little fun in Kitchen Table magic. 

I mostly play EDH this day (U/G Edric, mostly stompy counters) , and to date my most hilarious combo is Dominating Licid and Perplexing Chimera together.  It's very easily interruptible, especially in multiplayer games, but for the most part it's harmless.  I had to take Memnarch and Palinchron out of my deck as winning as soon as I tooth and nailed was just boring.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 31, 2014, 07:22:51 AM
Win with no mercy, it's very little fun in Kitchen Table magic.
Exactly how I feel. It hasn't stopped me from playing with certain things, but generally I'm just a casual player out for fun.

I just ordered the challenge decks from amazon, they have co-op rules and I figured it'd be something to try, the archenemy dragon deck I picked up for much of the same reason ended up getting torn apart and rebuilt with one of every dragon I own. Coolness factor 10, playability "I need more than 4 shamans!" heh. Splashed green to help with mana which helped a bit through.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on July 31, 2014, 06:41:00 PM
I don't even play anymore. I just like theorycraft.  :D
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 06, 2014, 05:15:20 PM
General review on the challenge decks.

What are they?
A block event, the dealer used a special event deck against you (or you just played by your self and reported winning), these decks had no londs and used specialized cards to dictate the deck's behavior. If you manged to beat it you picked up a special event card (woot). Following the novella you could progress through the story in your own card based way.

Deck #1, the Hydra
The hardest deck out of them all. Easy/Normal/Hard modes based on the number of starting heads. The default head is a 0/3 creature you can attack directly as if it were a player. Killing a head awarded a Hero's Reward (typically +2 life per player) and the Hydra draws two cards and if any number of them are another head card it goes into the battlefield immediately.

The Hydra draws one card per turn which is typically another normal or elite head, turn delay (heads are indestructible or you cannot cast spells, lasts one turn), or deal even more damage. Some of these cards are pretty cool, like Torn Between the Heads deals 5 damage but taps two heads so its like those two heads really are too busy trying to tear you apart. At the end of it's turn, it direct deals 1 damage per head (2 per for elites) no matter the player count. You win if at any time the Hydra has no heads in play at the end of the turn (ie wrath of god may not kill it since new heads can be drawn and put on the field).

Honestly it's my second favorite of the three. But all three heavily favor creature based decks which kind of robs the fun. And since none of the creatures actually attack many anti-creature methods such as Propaganda and Fog have no effect.

Deck #2, the Horde
Easy/Hard comes in as the number of turns you take before the Horde deck starts taking it's own turns. It gets 2 cards a turn which typically are haste & always attacking creatures. It has artifacts that allow it to draw more cards, "spells" to give the horde haste and requiring additional blocking, and a nice global wipe that hits all creatures for 3 damage (kill everything the horde has out).

You can't attack the creatures directly but for each point of damage dealt to it's "player" it mills a card. The deck loses when it's milled out. This one does have an official multiplayer rules, it draws 2+(1 per player) and you share life. This is where I got the multiplier adaption for the Hydra from, 1 card per player and shared life total. The deck is pretty easy thanks to having up to three turns before it. I like it because the rest of the casual players I know are built to handle it (ie creature based).

Deck #3, kill the stupid Satyr
Xenagos's deck is almost a boring capstone to the Challenge Decks. Hes a 6/5 Indestructible Creature and you have to kill every single one of his creatures before you're allowed to remove him form the battlefield. Spellside of his deck is more varied, it's the all-arounder really. Sometimes Xena attacks, sometimes his creatures do, nothing really fancy.

Since his creatures don't attack every turn you'll have dead turns where it sits there doing nothing. Maybe it summons a 1/3 creature meh. Easiest of the three and it just lacks a unique feel to it.

Rewards
You get a special Hero Card you can use against the Challenge Decks to make things a little easier. They sit in your Command Zone and you begin play with them. They range in usefulness, like the Hydra's reward is The Slayer (start with +7 life) while Xena gave a Equipment card I think. They are not legal for normal play.

I ordered all the ones I missed and I plan on copying the Vanguard Cards (way to expensive to buy in real) and coming up with my own over the top Vanguard/ELH/Planechase/Hero format with all but the ELH element randomized.

Overall
I'd suggest picking them up, they are only like $10 bucks a deck when I ordered them. Co-Op play is always fun with no butthurts afterwards for losing so overall it's nice to break them out every now then, specially after rebuilding a deck and you want to see how it'll fair against a creature deck (zerg rushing horde ftw!)

Read more about the Hero's Path Event you missed here (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Hero%27s_Path#Hero.27s_Path). Then just order the cards and run your own :p
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 25, 2014, 06:46:56 PM
Professionally printing proxies with their normal art is out, printing stickers is horrible, so I went digitized.

(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii562/SorO_Lost/MTGv1_zpsc435848e.jpg)
HTML/Javascript based, supports Vanguard 1~3 and Theraos' GodSlayer upgrades. I'm wanting to add Planechase support to it but haven't gotten around to it.

Kind of a novice/hobbyist and I hate HTML/JS's error reporting (or lack there of) so the tables move by one pixel depending on selections which is pretty irritating. Anyway, have the code.
(click to show/hide)
For the people that are unsure what the heck that is.
1. Copy and paste the code into notepad (not ms word)
2. Use "save as" and name it MTG.htm, next to "save as type" be sure to select all files, save it to the folder you made.
3. Create two new folders in the same spot, one named Theros and the other Vanguard, capitalization must be identical.
4. Click Here (http://magiccards.info/extra/other/vanguard/urza.html) to obtain the vanguard images and save them into the Vanguard folder ensuring names match (you have to capitalize the first letter).
5. You're screwed on Theros.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Jackinthegreen on April 10, 2015, 08:09:20 PM
I just bought a prebuilt Commander deck...  This specific one is the red "Built From Scratch" deck that features Daretti, Scrap Savant as its usual commander.  Daretti is also a Planeswalker.

I'm trying to figure out how the deck works and it's just making my head hurt.  I've never played with a Planeswalker before, so I'll have to get used to that on top of the Commander stuff.  Here's the decklist:  http://magic.wizards.com/en/products/card-set-archive/commander-2014/built-from-scratch

And I found this Reddit link discussing it: http://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/2l0l96/official_built_from_scratch_the_red_one_upgrade/

Dang I wish I knew how to combine this artifact stuff with Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer as a Commander instead, if that'd be worthwhile.  Also thinking of the Sun Titan and Urabrask the Hidden somehow working with the deck, or in a different deck.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: littha on April 15, 2015, 04:03:42 AM
I just bought a prebuilt Commander deck...  This specific one is the red "Built From Scratch" deck that features Daretti, Scrap Savant as its usual commander.  Daretti is also a Planeswalker.

I'm trying to figure out how the deck works and it's just making my head hurt.  I've never played with a Planeswalker before, so I'll have to get used to that on top of the Commander stuff.  Here's the decklist:  http://magic.wizards.com/en/products/card-set-archive/commander-2014/built-from-scratch

And I found this Reddit link discussing it: http://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/2l0l96/official_built_from_scratch_the_red_one_upgrade/

Dang I wish I knew how to combine this artifact stuff with Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer as a Commander instead, if that'd be worthwhile.  Also thinking of the Sun Titan and Urabrask the Hidden somehow working with the deck, or in a different deck.

Having played against it a couple of times I never got the impression it was that complex. The basic plan is fairly obviously to play out a load of artifacts and then recur them using your plainswalker's abilities. Sacrificing a spellbomb to return a Wurmcoil engine for example.

The deck can also draw a surprising number of cards.

Upgrades wise I would look into Mycosynth Lattice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50527) and All is Dust (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193658)



For a Jor Kadeen deck I would actually advise against using this precon as a base. He plays much better with massed artifact creatures because they can both activate and benefit from his abilities. There are some in that deck but it also has a focus on goblins
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: SorO_Lost on June 06, 2015, 12:43:26 PM
I'm trying to figure out how the deck works and it's just making my head hurt.  I've never played with a Planeswalker before, so I'll have to get used to that on top of the Commander stuff.
In a quick gist. Commander/Elder_highlander is a 100 card deck with no copies with a designated creature serving as it's "commander". And basically the Commander can only sit "nearly-in-your-hand" or on the battlefield no matter what. Spammed usage increases the casting cost by 1 colorless each time after the first.

Overall the format is great for new players that have tons of shitty cards but no duplicates. The games are extremely slow letting you easily play the large casting cards that rarely make it onto the battlefield without help. Overall I dislike it through, fast deck means it's easier to play when time is a factor. And if you want to extend things you can simply have an agreement not to attack or blast each other for a number of rounds. But it's popular so a lot of people disagree with that I suppose.


Planeswalkers are a totally new type, so the typical assumptions with that are there too. It's not a creature, or enchantment, or player, or artificer etc. Anything that targets those cannot target a Planeswalker. They start with a number of "loyalty" counters equal to the value on the lower right of the card and you can activate one ability per turn as a Sorcery with all the known assumptions you would make. Like it doesn't have to tap so there is no "summoning sickness" allowing you to use it on the turn it comes out and can't expend more counters than it has etc. The only real thing to learn is your opponent's creatures can attack it instead of you, you can use your creatures to block as normal and it's counters is also used as it's hit points.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on June 06, 2015, 06:37:55 PM
Really wanting to get into cardboard MTG once again, but man are the costs prohibitive. Sigh...

As someone who doesn't own any cards newer than the first Ravnica block, and in fact only a handful of those, the way i see it, i have basically two options, each of which with its own pros and cons:

1 - Start going to draft events at FNM and slowly build my collection that way, all while buying a few boosters here and there and trading.

Pros:

- I can start playing right off the bat for a relatively low entry cost.
- I'll not only enjoy the gaming, but also the trading aspects of the game.

Cons:

- It'll be a long, long time before i can muster anything close to a competitive deck.
- Before i can get anything resembling a decent deck, i'll end up spending much more than if i just went and bought the cards from a dealer.

2 - R&D my own deck, test it out on Cockatrice and the likes until i'm happy with it, and just take the plunge, spending several hundred dollars in the process.

Pros:

- Enjoying the competitive gaming scene right off the bat is appealing.
- If i manage to do well in competitions, i may be able to recoup the costs of assembling the deck given enough time.

Cons:

- A lot of money upfront that i really shouldn't be spending.
- No guarantee i'll ever get my money's worth (except for the fun of just playing).
- I'll have zero cards to trade, so the only enjoyment i'll get out of the game IS playing it, i'll have no collection to speak of.


Sigh... :\

If anyone has a better idea, shoot, i'm all ears.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: JohnnyMayHymn on June 07, 2015, 07:48:03 AM
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3 - R&D existing budget decks in the format you want to play in, just google 'cheap modern decks' or 'budget standard decks', test those on Cockatrice until you find something you like; and tweak it to your liking, there are even budget commander decks out there!

from here, you can still attend draft events on occasion to build your collection
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: zook1shoe on June 13, 2015, 11:39:47 PM
Hippos!

But seriously, I've had a couple decks that drew people out towards the end of me playing about 5-6 years ago
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: muktidata on June 26, 2015, 04:55:44 PM
Brujon, there are always fairly inexpensive decks that are playable in both standard and modern. Right now, you don't have to spend over $20 to build a competitive red deck. Mono green Infect can do well in modern.

If you're a good limited player, starting by drafting can be nice. That's how I started when Theros came out. I just made sure I won every draft by drafting and playing tight, and I ended up with a small collection over the course of a few months. My first constructed deck was a silver bullet strategy made purely of cards I owned and was good enough for day two of the first GP I ever played in.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: SorO_Lost on June 28, 2015, 04:34:52 PM
I made a Squirrel deck for summer camp this year.
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It's based off Parallel Lives and it's ruling.
Quote from: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249662
If you control two Parallel Lives, then the number of tokens created is four times the original number. If you control three, then the number of tokens created is eight times the original number, and so on.

I'm too cheap to buy all the great cards you'd wish you had (doubling season, nut collector, deranged hermit, etc) but I did find some pretty cheap substitutes to build the deck mostly using Populate-based cards. And then I ordered some Nomads' Assembly (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198180), little less theme fitting but holy crap does it have the potential to kick out tens thousands of little 1/1 weenies.

I feel like squirrel girl now.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: muktidata on June 28, 2015, 05:10:47 PM
I made a Squirrel deck for summer camp this year.
(click to show/hide)

It's based off Parallel Lives and it's ruling.
Quote from: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249662
If you control two Parallel Lives, then the number of tokens created is four times the original number. If you control three, then the number of tokens created is eight times the original number, and so on.

I'm too cheap to buy all the great cards you'd wish you had (doubling season, nut collector, deranged hermit, etc) but I did find some pretty cheap substitutes to build the deck mostly using Populate-based cards. And then I ordered some Nomads' Assembly (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198180), little less theme fitting but holy crap does it have the potential to kick out tens thousands of little 1/1 weenies.

I feel like squirrel girl now.

Needs more Purphoros.. and highlander treatment!  :P
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: SorO_Lost on June 28, 2015, 10:43:46 PM
Needs more Purphoros.. and highlander treatment!  :P
fify.

Purphoros is also about eight bucks a card and red in a Green/White deck meaning land has to be changed around too. :(
It's probably more theme fitting to just pick up Coat of Arms which is about the same price. By the time Purphoros would have dealt twenty damage over the course of the game you could be swinging for a couple hundred or more per turn.
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Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on June 29, 2015, 08:47:08 PM
Squirrels is a fun, fun deck to play. I remember the first time i played against it, and the guy just flat out said, i attack with a billion squirrels. And i'm like, what? I was 12 and thought this was so awesome. Probably why i fell in love with combos in the first place.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: muktidata on June 30, 2015, 04:20:02 PM
I can't wait to play white weenie with Magic Origins.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 18, 2015, 01:19:57 PM
So I have a new rule set for you all try consider, it's called "The coven".

Five people bring a different monocolor deck to the table and sit per the back of the cards. Exactly like MTG, your allies are to your left and right (ally colors) but your opponents are across from you (enemy colors). Turn order is the annoying star pattern that takes some getting used to and your basic win condition is both your enemies losing with I-wins removed. So you can freely use your allies to win since who kills who doesn't matter and no one can cheat the system by using an alternative win card.

Overall, it's interesting since it really brings in a team dynamic over a standard circle and real life diplomacy over Two-Headed without feeling cheapened like separate bodyguards in Emperor. And artifact decks using none-colored Spells can be used to substitute a color in case you're a little disproportional color wise in your group.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on July 18, 2015, 02:54:19 PM
Sounds pretty interesting, if a bit complicated. Should be a lot of fun with the right people!
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on September 08, 2015, 02:15:11 PM
So I have a new rule set for you all try consider, it's called "The coven".

Five people bring a different monocolor deck to the table and sit per the back of the cards. Exactly like MTG, your allies are to your left and right (ally colors) but your opponents are across from you (enemy colors). Turn order is the annoying star pattern that takes some getting used to and your basic win condition is both your enemies losing with I-wins removed. So you can freely use your allies to win since who kills who doesn't matter and no one can cheat the system by using an alternative win card.

Overall, it's interesting since it really brings in a team dynamic over a standard circle and real life diplomacy over Two-Headed without feeling cheapened like separate bodyguards in Emperor. And artifact decks using none-colored Spells can be used to substitute a color in case you're a little disproportional color wise in your group.

That actually sounds really interesting, and it would give my (relatively slow) Blue Mill deck a chance to see play. Which would be good, since I haven't played in literal years.

On a side note, I have a rules question:

I'm theorycrafting a deck right now that I have dubbed Handripper. It does three things:
1. Punishes my opponent for discarding cards (through cards like Liliana's Caress, Geth's Grimoire, and Waste Not.)
2. Punishes my opponent for drawing cards (Chains of Mephistopheles, Underworld Dreams, etc)
3. Forces my opponent to draw cards (Anvil of Bogardan, Dragon Mage, Shocker, Teferi's Puzzle Box, Temple Bell, etc)

Now, this thing is going to end up with nasty combos (Dragon Mage + Chains of Mephistopheles comes to mind. If I make a successful attack with Dragon Mage, discard your hand and draw 7 cards. Instead of drawing those seven cards, pick between the following seven times: A. mill 1, or discard 1, draw 1.)

The issue I'm running into is whether or not you can opt to discard a card from an empty hand when CoM demands it as a cost - the order is very specific (discard 1, and then draw 1). I have looked around, and it seems people think that you can discard cards from an empty hand (which seems kinda odd, but OK, I guess).

Here's the card in question (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chains+of+mephistopheles); anyone got any input on this?

(A note: I have, in the past, tended to only play Magic with friends, which means that if I do build this deck, I will probably not throw both Anvil of Bogardan and Chains of Mephistopheles. Because preventing your opponent from top decking is too nasty in a deck focused on nuking the other guy's hand.)
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: brujon on September 08, 2015, 02:42:50 PM
Quote from: Ruling
6/9/2007    Here's what happens when Chains of Mephistopheles replaces a player's draw: -- If that player has at least one card in his or her hand, he or she discards a card and then draws a card. -- If that player's hand is empty, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard. The player doesn't draw a card at all.

So if your hand is empty you can't opt to "discard" a card. You don't have cards to discard. Instead, you go to the second effect, that happens when you don't discard a card that way, and you put a card from the top of your library in your graveyard.

That's how i see it.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 08, 2015, 03:08:22 PM
Chains of Mephistopheles is kind of complicated, but they published an article on it (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/article/20040910b). Basically CoM is a replacement effect that modifies a card drawing event. That is the craw drawn from CoM's outcome is not a new event but the same one that triggered it, no infinite looping.

If you had two CoMs out and made your opponent draw, they have to discard two cards in order to draw one or mill a single card. This applies for each forced card, so for example
Quote
What would happen if you only had two cards in your had when your opponent targeted you with the Ancestral Recall? For the first draw event you can discard two cards and then get to draw a card. However when you come up to the second draw you can not discard two cards, but you still have to discard the one left in your hand. Because you did not discard twice in this instance, you will not draw at all but will end up milling a card. Finally you deal with the third draw, you can’t even discard one card, but you will still only mill one.
Aka Recall is draw 3, for each of those discard 2 or mill 1. Dragon Mage is pretty much discard hand & mill a few.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: Amechra on September 08, 2015, 03:35:42 PM
I have only one thing to say to that.

 :D

That is all.
Title: Re: M:tG Deck Tips?
Post by: muktidata on October 28, 2015, 09:22:14 PM
Taking a stab at brewing for standard. I'm working on Esper right now. Any advice?

4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Soulfire Grand Master
1 Fathom Feeder

4 Silkwrap
4 Ojutai's Command
4 Valorous Stance
3 Duress
2 Dispel
2 Dig Through Time
1 Utter End
1 Complete Disregard

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Sunken Hollow
3 Swamp
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Plains
1 Windswept Heath