Author Topic: Mystic Theurge Handbook (Caedrus)  (Read 18174 times)

Offline Libertad

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Mystic Theurge Handbook (Caedrus)
« on: February 01, 2013, 01:22:22 AM »

« on: December 28, 2008, 05:47:38 PM »

Welcome to my Mystic Theurge Handbook.

Things I should say up front:


Sometimes I write from Rules as Written (RAW), sometimes Rules as Intended (RAI). If that is a problem for you, please stop reading now. Caelic makes a number of valid points on RAW vs. RAI
here. I make these distinctions because, primarily, I am a DM, rather than a player, and I like to keep a sense of balance in my campaign setting. I will try to present as much info as I can, but please keep in mind that, as with all things discussed here, it is simply my opinion.

Feel free to add constructive criticism of this work, and indeed to suggest useful things to add.

I would also point out that the majority of this Handbook assumes a Wizard (or maybe Sorceror) / Cleric Mystic Theurge. The other base classes available nowadays make for a myriad of variations, but hopefully this guidebook may help.

There will, inevitably, be the response of “But I can create a [insert clever build] that is more effective at [task].” Very true. I created this guide, not as the be-all-and-end-all of power, but rather to create a guide for a much maligned class, that still, despite all recommendations to the contrary, seems a very popular Prestige Class. I think the Mystic Theurge is an extremely useful, extremely flexible class that allows for a good mixture of fluff and crunch, which is thematically strong, as well as potentially powerful.

Finally, and I can’t way this enough: The way you play your game will differ from mine. There are things I allow in my game that you would never allow; I am quite sure the opposite is true. I request that you take my opinions, thoughts and ideas as those, and nothing more, and respect that we all play the game differently.

Credits

If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants – Sir Isaac Newton (sometimes accredited to Albert Einstein).

Many people have created very useful guides which in turn helped me creating this guide, and I would like to acknowledge (alphabetically):

Caelic
Iaimeki
Lord Zeb
Pyromantic
Snow Savant
Surreal
The_Monkey_King

Apologies if I have not credited some work. Please let me know and I shall amend.

New Term

Bounce (v): to use a non-optimised class as a springboard or base into a more optimised class.

Dual Caster Classes


For my money, the best dual caster class is the Fochlucan Lyrist (Complete Adventurer). I would direct you to Iaimeki’s excellent
Lyrist Handbook for the discussion on this class. Other options include the Arcane Hierophant Handbook from Pyromantic, and The_Monkey_King has a list of all the dual-casters in hisDouble Progression Class Optimisation Guide.

What are the advantages of the Mystic Theurge?

1. You can advance both divine and arcane casting.
2. You can decide, each level, which arcane and divine casting class to advance. This skill is little known, but completely legal, Rules as Written.
3. There is no advancement-bias; you can use a Mystic Theurge to advance Sorceror-and-Druid just as easily as Cleric-and-Wizard, or indeed any Arcane or Divine advancement class.
4. Relatively easy entry.
5. The potential for SAD (Single Attribute Dependence) builds, or more likely DAD (Dual Attribute Dependence) builds.

What are the disadvantages of a Mystic Theurge?

1. Awful Hit Dice.
2. Awful Base Attack Progression.
3. Awful Reflex and Fortitude Saves.
4. No Special Abilities for advancing levels.
5. Lack of direction after the minimum + 10 levels of Mystic Theurge point.

Comparatively speaking, the Arcane Hierophant gets better Hit Dice, and more abilities. The same is true of the True Necromancer. The Fochlucan Lyrist gets, well, pretty much everything better. So, why be a Mystic Theurge? Well:

1. To bounce into another dual caster class swiftly, and with minimal prerequisites.
2. To boost your main caster class with secondary casting.
3. You are going to use an early-entry method to maximise the use of Mystic Theurge.
[/size]« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 05:58:09 PM by Caedrus »[/t][/color]

Offline Libertad

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook (Caedrus)
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2013, 01:22:43 AM »

« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2008, 05:48:20 PM »

Advancing into another dual class swiftly.

Getting into another dual-spellcaster class early has been discussed well in the articles above from Iaimeki (Fochlucan Lyrist) and Pyromantic (Arcane Hierophant) so I shan’t go over them here. I have deliberately left out psionic / warlock advancing classes, as I just don’t have the experience with them to make an informed judgement.
To boost your main caster class.

Let’s be honest. Sorcerors get nothing after level one, so the sooner they get into a Prestige Class, the better. Wizards get four feats (levels 5, 10, 15, and 20), but that’s about it. If you can get to a Prestige Class, then you should. The same is true for clerics, although turning is a very useful skill, and advancing it is extremely useful, both for Metamagic, as well as the actual turning of undead.

Early Entry Methods.

The following statements are strictly my opinion. I know that they will chafe on some readers.

1. The Illumian Method. Completely legal, but requires you to be a bald person with neon signs flashing around your head. I don’t use Illumians myself, but hey, go for it. In essence, you take Improved Sigil: Krau, and you can then choose 2 spells that are affected as if they were prepared with Heighten spell, therefore they are 2nd level for all level dependant effects. Oh, and there is a feat that allows you to hide your sigil.

2. The Earth Spell Method. I don’t use this method, because (a) It requires three feats; (2) I don’t believe that it is Rules as Intended to have, for example, a 1st level wizard (albeit one with three feats, say a human with a Flaw) be able to cast spells with that high an equivalent level of power; and (3) I believe that if you use a Fly spell (for example) and leave the ground, you no longer qualify for Earth Spell, thus no longer qualifying as a Mystic Theurge, which creates a paradox, which I don’t like. All I can say is fly this past your DM so there's no misunderstanding.

3. The Sanctum Spell Method. Similar in principle to the Earth Spell Method, if you leave your Sanctum, you lose the ability, so another paradox, which is why I don’t use it. Same caveat as above.

4. The Alternate Source Spell Method. I am an advocate of this method, as it is explicitly legal in terms of requirements for entry into Mystic Theurge. The downside to this method is that it comes from a Dragon Magazine (#325), and some campaigns / DMs have an issue with Dragon. In short, you can convert Divine spells into Arcane, and Arcane spells into Divine. You only have the prerequisite of being able to cast both types of spell. This allows for fast entry via a Cleric 3 / Wizard 1, or a Wizard 3 / Cleric 1. Note that the perquisite of Mystic Theurge is being able to cast 2nd level Arcane and Divine spells, which many take to mean 2+ Arcane spells and 2+ Divine spells. This means, in turn, that you must cast 4+ spells of 2nd Level per day. For this, Wizard 3 / Cleric 1 is easiest, because at Wizard 3 you can have 1 x 2nd (Level); 1 x 2nd (Intelligence Bonus) and 2 x 2nd Focused Specialist Wizard. There are other options. See Feats, below. The downside is, of course, that not everyone allows, nor has access to, Dragon Magazine.

5. The Southern Magician Method. Very similar to the Alternate Source Spell, above. This feat is Forgotten Realms specific, and so some campaign settings will prohibit this. Also note that the Mystic Theurge explicitly advances a Divine spellcasting class;, and reading by RAW, an arcane class that can cast some divine spells, to me, isn't a divine spellcasting class. To me, it requires flying past your DM before you begin. Please note that
WotC have said no to this method.

6. The Precocious Apprentice Method. This is perhaps the most contentious method of early entry into any Prestige Class in the history of the Character Optimisation Boards. In short, you get access to a 2nd level spell. Some argue that as soon as you gain 2nd level spellcasting in any class, it prohibits the use of the feat, essentially. My opinion only here, but I don’t have an issue with it. To me, if you can find an early way into a Prestige Class that is reputedly so weak, what harm? So, I allow it, but others do not. As with all things, ask your DM. I believe that one of the designers involved with the sourcebook invalidated its use. Does anyone have a link for this?

7. The Metamagic Method. Essentially, you use Easy Metamagic to increase the effective level of Metamagic by one. Then, you use it in conjunction with Heighten Spell, such that each time you increase the effective level of a spell by one, it is increased by two, therefore you can heighten a spell two level two. I don’t personally use this method, simply because I am not in favour of the idea of being able to Heighten a spell to a level that you could not actually cast. However, as always, consult your DM.

8. The Anyspell Method. Discussed
here, the Anyspell method method uses the spell Anyspell to emulate an Arcane Spell from a Divine spell. Customer Service were asked to validate the legality here, and it was shot down. However, it must be said that Customer Service do not always enjoy a great amount of internal consistency, so discretion allows me to include it here. Back hereat post 12, Bill Bisco presents a pretty valid argument. Take from that what you will.

So is there a better way? There certainly is. Read Post #5 for what I shall egotistically call The Caedrus Method.  Big Grin
[/size]« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 06:53:30 PM by Caedrus »[/t][/color]

Offline Libertad

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook (Caedrus)
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2013, 01:23:01 AM »

« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2008, 05:48:55 PM »

Useful Feats for Aspiring Mystic Theurges -
UPDATING SOON!

1. Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon). This allows you to convert 2 spells of a specific level into a single spell, one level higher. Useful for Sorceror builds, because it requires spontaneous casting.
2. Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane). Valuable as a potential early entry method in itself, it also has the added bonus of providing an extra 2nd level spell, once the ability to cast 2nd level spells exists.
3. Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Divine). Essentially, you need to take this feat twice for both your Divine and Arcane casting, or else you lose effective caster levels.
4. Alternate Source Spell (Dragon 325). See notes on Early Entry Methods, above.
5. Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine). In conjunction with Alternate Source spell, this allows Divine Metamagic with Arcane spells very nicely.
6. Metamagic Song (Races of Stone). Probably more useful than Divine Metamagic, especially with Bardic builds.
7. Southern Magician (Faerun). Refer to Early Entry Methods, above. Note that this is a campaign specific feat.
8. Nymph’s Kiss (Book of Exalted Deeds). The bonus skill point comes in very handy, and the bonuses to Charisma checks and saves bonuses are icing on the cake.

Useful Races for Aspiring Mystic Theurges.

1. Bamboo Spirit Folk (Oriental Adventures): The main advantage here is being able to get into Arcane Hierophant early, boosting from a base of Mystic Theurge.
2. Human: A strong Mystic Theurge can be feat-intensive, so the extra feat of a human comes in handy. In addition, being able to declare our highest class as a favoured class can come in handy with single-sided early entry builds.
3. Half-Elf: The half-elf race allows entry into Arcane Hierophant, and, like the human, being able to declare your highest class as a favoured class is very useful.
4. Elf: Arguably the best Mystic Theurge race. They get access to Wizard as their favoured class, they can take the Elven Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild), to get an extra spell of their highest level, and taking Grey Elf boosts their intelligence by 2. For an Arcane-strong Hierophant, the elf is probably the best choice.
5. Gnome: Useful with Illusionist as the Arcane-sided class. The favoured class of bard has some use in some builds.

Useful Classes for the Aspiring Mystic Theurge.

1. Bard. An excellent base for the Mystic Theurge into Fochlucan Lyrist Build. Access to Use Magic Device (always handy), and the Listen skill (Fochlucan Lyrist builds)
2. Ur Priest. A fast advancing Divine Spellcasting Class.
3. Fochlucan Lyrist. A double-class-spell-advancing Class. Full Discussion HERE .
4. Sublime Chord. A fast advancing Arcane Spellcasting Class. Discussed in Lord Zeb’s Sublime Compilation.
5. Divine Oracle. A fast advancing Divine Spellcasting class.
6. Arcane Hierophant. A double-class-spell-advancing Class. Full Discussion HERE .
7. Uncanny Trickster. (Complete Scoundrel): This class adds to an existing class, including spellcasting, which means that you can extend that dual-class spellcasting for a few more levels. The 2/3 spellcasting bonus isn’t ideal.
8. Specialist Wizard. Since you get access to Dispel Magic from the cleric side, why take Abjuration?

Other Tools.

There are all sorts of interesting and valuable ways to boost your Mystic Theurge abilities:
1. Flaws (unearthed Arcana): The high feat-use of a well-structured Mystic Theurge requires careful planning, and Flaws may help out on this regard, if they are allowed in your campaign.
2. Traits (Unearthed Arcana): Again, an optional rule, but these skill enhancers can make your life easier.
3. Skill Tricks (Complete Scoundrel): When you start to get a few spare skill points (around level 12 if you bounce), skill tricks can be very useful.

General Advice

1. Plan way in advance for your class structure, particularly if you intend to bounce.
2. Never, ever go into combat unless you have more buffs on than you know what to do with.
3. It never hurts to have a secondary role; healer and blaster are built in, but buff-monkey or party face are also possibilities.
4. Use your spells wisely. Consider spells that do not rely on saves / SR. Using spells cleverly, such as those discussed in Snow Savant’s excellent threads HERE and HERE will go a long way.
5. Have a look at Surreal’s very useful Handy Links thread. Get lots of ideas.
6. Your stats will tell you your build; It is possible to make a blaster, a healer, a buffer, or a battlefield controller, all based on your stats.

(continued...)
[/size]« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 06:53:57 PM by Caedrus »[/t][/color]

Offline Libertad

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook (Caedrus)
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2013, 01:23:20 AM »

« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2008, 05:49:34 PM »

Suggested Builds -
UPDATING SOON!

These builds are ones I like. There are, of course, a myriad of variations on each, including race.

1. The Elven Theurge Hierophant – The Arcane Hierotheurge.

Elven Druid 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 4 / Arcane Hierophant 10.

Pros: Unquestionable legality, very powerful. Epic ready. Very strong spellcasting.
Cons: You might need to take Druid 5 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 2 / Arcane Hierophant 10 if your DM interprets the Arcane Hierophant in a way different to yourself.
Comments: I think that this is thematically, as well as functionally, a beautiful build.

2. Traditional Arcane Theurge – The Blastotheurge!

Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / (Any Arcane Advancing Class) 4

Pros: 9th Level Arcane, 7th Level Divine. Extremely potent blaster build.
Cons: Miss out on some serious divine firepower.
Comments: The right choice of Prestige Class (Archmage, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, etc) can increase your firepower dramatically.

3. Traditional Divine Theurge – The Invincitheurge!

Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / (Any Divine Advancing Class) 4

Pros: 9th Level Divine, 7th Level Arcane. Extremely potent buffer / survival build. Access to most powerful divine spells in the game.
Cons: No extremely high level arcane casting.
Comments: The opposite of the Blastotheurge, this can be made extraordinarily powerful with the right Divine Prestige Class, both early and late in the build.

4. The Voice of the Forest.

Elf Savage Bard 1 / Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Wildrunner 1 / Mystic Theurge 2 / Arcane Hierophant 10

Pros: Better hit Dice than the average Mystic Theurge, Epic Ready, 8th Level Arcane, 8th Level Divine.
Cons: Not really that Mystic Theurgy, when all is said and done. Requires lots of skill points. No access to 9th Arcane and 9th Divine by Level 20. Empty Feat (Endurance) for Wildrunner. Craptacular BAB. You lose access to Wild Shape unless you utilise a single level of druid and interpret the Arcane Hierophant to allow Wild Shape if the ability is not retained by the character prior to gaining Arcane Hierophant.
Comments: Thematically strong, but in terms of total power, I think this build could be improved. Savage Bard (Unearthed Arcana) is used for access to Survival as a class skill. Barbarian, Druid or Ranger will help here.

5. The Shadowdancer

Bard 1 / Cleric 3 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 9 // Shadow Template +2

Pros: 9th Level Arcane, 9th Level Divine. Access to high level Bard spells. When utilised with Extra Bardic Music, Metamagic Song and Alternate Source Spell, it becomes an extremely powerful caster.
Cons: Uses the Alternate Source Spell Method; also uses the Shadow Template (Lords of Madness), which has a +2 LA, which assumes LA Buyoff rules (Unearthed Arcana) for the Evasion Class Skill; also uses the roleplaying aspect of the Fochlucan Lyrist to gain Druidic, as opposed to taking a level of druid. Note that the use of Bardic Tutelage (Champions of Valour) can get rid of this if your DM doesn’t like it.
Comments: I love this build. Certainly, many people will be annoyed by it. Certainly, when some see it, the response tends to be that stacking a number of variant rules together makes for a questionable build. Certainly, I understand the perception. I believe it is legal, but your views may vary.

6. The Voice of Law, aka The Counterspell Sonic Blaster
Race: Elf (Alternate Source spell Method) or Human (Southern Magician Method)
Alignment: Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral.
Wizard 1: Arcane Disciple (Inquisition), Scribe Scroll. If elven, take Generalist Wizard Specialist.
Wizard 2:
Cleric 1: Domains: Any two that don’t include the Inquisition Domain. Southern Magician or Alternate Source Spell.
Wizard 3: Casts 2nd level spells. Now has 2nd level spells. With Southern Magician / Alternate Source Spell, they can be cast as divine spells. With Arcane Disciple (Inquisition Domain), they can cast Zone of Truth. Therefore, they qualify for Church Inquisitor.
Take two levels of Church Inquisitor, gaining Detect Evil as well as Immunity to Charms, as well as the Inquisition Domain.
From this point, it’s all about Mystic Theurge.
At level 6, take Practiced Spellcaster, boosting one side casting levels. At level 9, take Elven Spell Lore in an appropriate spell that you like (Scorching Ray is always a favourite, and I am a big fan of Sonic as the energy exchange). You are now casting Dispel Magic at Caster Level +6, thanks to Elven Spell Lore and the Inquisition Domain.
With the spells you have to spare, it might be worthwhile to make counterspelling one of your strengths.
Every other spell to spare can be your Sonic Rays, with Metamagic Feats to taste.

You can create a more interesting variation of this using Wild Mage instead of Church Inquisitor; on average, it is just as good for your Dispelling, and you have a potential (though variable) boost for all your other spells.

This is a work in progress, so please excuse any errors (I will endeavour to fix them), and feel free to add any constructive criticism. Thanks for reading my Mystic Theurge Handbook.

Caedrus
[/size]« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 06:54:25 PM by Caedrus »[/t][/color]

Offline Libertad

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook (Caedrus)
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2013, 01:23:42 AM »

« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2008, 05:50:02 PM »

Is there a holeproof, legal, RAW early entry into Mystic Theurge?

I believe so. This is mine. I am always happy for constructive feedback, but here goes. Do remember that there are a myriad of variations on this theme.

Step 1: At level one, find the ability to cast spells spontaneously, and take the feat
Heighten Spell (Player's Handbook, Pg 95)

Method A: Take a level of Sorceror.
Method B: Take a level of Bard.
Method C: Take a Spontaneous Divine Caster (Unearthed Arcana, Pg 64, DM fiat).
Method D: Take the Magical Training feat (Player's Guide to Faerun, Pg 41, Campaign Specific, Elf or Human only); you will need a spare feat spot, either from being human, of by using Flaws.

I recommend taking a level of bard. The reasons being: Skill Points, Bardic Music, entry into other Prestige Classes, and Languages.

Step 2: Take a level of an Arcane Casting Class.

Method A: Take a level of Sorceror.
Method B: Take a level of Wizard.
Method C: Take a level of whatever Arcane Caster class you like.

I recommend taking Wizard; if you had taken Sorceror as your 1st level, you can take whatever class you like.

Step 3: Take a level of a Divine Casting Class, and take the feat
Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon, Pg 101), and as described here.

Method A: Take a level of Cleric.
Method B: Take a level of Druid.
Method C: TAke a level of whatever Divine Caster class you like.

I recommend taking Cleric for the awesome abilities that domains grant you. The Planning Domain is always a good choice, as is the Inquisition Domain.

By level 3, you must have 6 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion). This should not be a problem.

So, here goes:

Getting into Mystic Theurge at Level 4.

Skills: You have by now got the necessary skills. Knowledge (Aracana) and Knowledge (Religion) will be class skills for you.

Feats:

You have taken
Versatile Spellcaster, which allows you to expend two spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.

You have taken
Heighten Spell, which increases the level of the spell to which the feat is applied, unlike every other metamagic feat. This is an important point, and I request that before using this feat, please do read the description of the feat, and of metamagic feats in the PHB.

Now, according to the FAQ on the
WotC Website, you can give up (as given in the example) two 1st level spells to cast a metamagic-enhanced spell.

Therefore, if we sacrifice two 1st level spell slots, we can cast one of the 1st level spells as a 2nd level spell, as enhanced by the Heighten Spell feat.

What about the whole plural thing?

Some keen-eyed individuals have pointed out in the past that Mystic Theurge requires you to cast 2nd level arcane, and 2nd level Divine spells. Plural. Two. More than one.

That isn't a problem. You see, even if (for example) a Wizard / Cleric has an Intelligence and Wisdom of 12, they will gain three 1st-level spells per day. You will need four to convert into the two 2nd level spells required to meet this prerequisite, but since you can convert 2x 0th level spells into a 1st level spell (again using Versatile Spellcaster), you get the spell slots you need.

I cannot see any reason why this construction isn't completely legal, Rules as Written. Hell, it is even supported by the WotC website! Of course, I am happy to hear intelligent arguments to the contrary.

Thus, I present to you what I think are the two best build stubs for Mystic Theurges:

Bard 1 / Wizard 1 / Cleric 1 into Mystic Theurge, OR
Any damn class you please / Sorceror 1 / Cleric 1 into Mystic Theurge.

There's more to come...
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