Author Topic: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You  (Read 27362 times)

Offline dither

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2014, 03:22:16 AM »
1. How does this houserule interact with.
A: Extraordinary Artisan (ECS): -25% gp costs to create items.
B: Magical Artisan (FR:PGtF): -25% xp & gp costs.
C: Ritual Sacrifice (BoVD): pays k-religion check x 3 in gp or xp costs.

Well, I could point out that two of the above feats are from FR/Eberron and based on the only two limitations I actually set forth on the game runs pretty much contrary to what my expectations.

Okay, Magical Artisan only applies to the results of one feat you choose? Okay. 75% of the original cost.

Extraordinary Artisan applies to any item creation, got it. And it reduces the base cost by 25%. Okay.

See the first one says "you only pay 75% of its original cost," and the second one says "reduce the base cost of all items by 25%." A strict reading of that suggests to me that the effects don't stack because one effects the cost and the other effects how much you pay. Extraordinary Artisan is the better choice.

Man, what? You want to slit some throats to get a discount on magic items? Okay, I'm sure you have a plan for rounding up some sacrifices and preparing the site for it. I might need you to explain things to me step by step, and I won't "freeze time" for you just to spam a whole bunch of kidnap/sacrifice actions -- it's still a social game, so you'd have to work it into the actions of the party.

2. Pazuzu on the table?

I believe Pazuzu is in the Abyssal skies and enjoys tempting paladins.

3. By no 3rd party, does that exclude 2nd party such as Dragon Magazine or Dragonlance?

That is my preference. I didn't make an exhaustive list of excluded content because I hoped that by saying I owned the basic books and saying that I didn't much care for third party material would convey my general disdain for digging into obscure, or setting-specific material. Maybe that means some "genuinely good stuff" gets cut or ignored... but how important is that, really? I mean, really?

What makes a scepter so much better than a wand or a staff, I ask -- that makes it require an extra creation feat and special rules? Was it really worth it? Why not fill that space with an alternate class feature that actually changes something?

4. Savage Species negative levels for higher level Monsters as 1st level characters in effect? AKA, is it possible to start as a Steel Dragon with 5 pretend negative levels (4HD/2LA) or something thereof?

I'd need a page reference. I skimmed chapters 2-3 but I didn't see anything about pretend negative levels. So I'm blind or it's in a different part of the book. Savage Species is a big book. Is it in a sidebar?

5. How soon can someone sell their soul?

Is that using the rules in Tyrants of the Nine Hells? You know, Pazuzu might be a whore for attention but I think you need to at least encounter a devil before you can attempt to sell your soul. I-know-an-imp-who-knows-an-imp, sound fair? I watched Supernatural, maybe you can meet one at a crossroads at midnight.

6. Unearthed Arcana's Flaws, Traits, LA-BuyOff and kitchen sink?

God, that stuff is so lame. You know that stuff is lame, right? I don't care if the benefit is a bonus feat, and you use that bonus feat to do amazing things. Sure, whatever. As long as you realize that it's lame.

7. Abolth Mucus in an Alchemical Sprayer?

I'm sure I've heard of that before but you only listed references for half the stuff in your list. Is that one in Lords of Madness? Why are you making me work so hard? I have a feeling you're going to be one of those players who makes a twinked-out character and then drops because the game is "boring."

Maybe you'll surprise me and play a half-orc barbarian. With a toothache.

Instead of asking me a bazillion questions and making me read a bunch of stuff to get on the same page with you, why don't you just tell me what you want to play and I can say yes or no? Talk to me instead of 'list' at me?


--Dither
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Offline dither

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2014, 03:51:25 AM »
I keep looking at the Flaws and Traits and trying to think of how I could permit them without opening the floodgates. I don't want everyone taking flaws and traits because they're lame. Maybe if you really, really needed an extra feat I could see you taking a flaw to offset the the extra feat -- but not one of the lame flaws like the -2 Strength/Dexterity/Constitution checks. And traits are just stupid.

Then again, I ran a short 3.5 adventure this evening and almost killed a guy with a Climb check and a 30-foot drop. A -2 penalty to Strength checks could prove fatal. :lmao

Let me put it to you like this -- I'll stick to what I said about you guys being able to break the game however you like. It's your game, I have no story to tell and nothing to prove. I just said I'm going to try and kill you. If you want to wish upon a demon prince, you're just asking to get smote by some paladins -- even moreso if you're playing a LG dragon paladin level-adjusted monstrosity. I wouldn't even have to make up an excuse.

Demons and devils would sooner kill you than let you fall into the others' hands. You can't seriously expect to sell your soul to both sides and expect to come out smelling like roses. Not while retaining paladin powers too -- if I have any idea of where you're going with this particular line of questioning. Pretty sure any deity would bounce a paladin the moment he or she called upon Pazuzu. Worse still, they might drop an Inevitable or a Planetar on you.

You want to kidnap and sacrifice humanoids to a dark entity? Okay, get the rest of the party on board with the plan. Not that I wouldn't be willing to run a couple threads in parallel or something, but if you all scatter in different directions, I'll just pick you off one at a time. No character is an island -- maybe not even a super-negative-level-adjusted Genius Loci.

Maybe. Maybe.

--Dither
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 03:53:17 AM by dither »
"Stuck between a rogue and a bard place."

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Offline McPoyo

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2014, 08:52:56 AM »
As a non-paladin orc, I eouldnt be averse to someone sacrificing people, as long as it wasn't wasteful or weird.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2014, 11:11:34 AM »
Instead of asking me a bazillion questions and making me read a bunch of stuff to get on the same page with you, why don't you just tell me what you want to play and I can say yes or no? Talk to me instead of 'list' at me?
Still feeling out what sounds good. Some of those questions help design, others for scale.

Like I consider a Barbarian being trapped in the choice to Rage now and knowing it give it up or save it for a possibly more challenging Encounter that may not happen a bad deal. Unused and unusable Class Features are Class Features that don't exist and this is one of the elements where Flaws shine. Feats are a means to boost your Class Features and pay taxes, such as picking up Extra Rage and feeling good about playing the pissed off character you set up.

Glanced around and I got the books wrong. The SSers (sandstorm and savage species) are negative levels in the forum of LA reduction (dustform & incarnate) while one of the Faerun books is the source of virtual negative levels (so it's probably out?). Also this might surprise you but I run very few twinks, I did make one here but even then I had validation.

Only things I know at this moment is team evil and my google-fu is failing to find a cool non-humanoid. Heck, maybe I should just recycle said twink to throw you for a loop :p

Offline McPoyo

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2014, 11:17:20 AM »
Hmm, if definitely Team Evil instead of Team Questionable...I may do Thralls instead of Followers. Orc Thrallherd sounds amazing.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2014, 04:28:56 PM »
Be a parrot, your highest ranking follower can be a beaded pirate mount.

Offline bridgar

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2014, 07:21:22 PM »
Hey, I'm definitely interested. I used to do a lot of epic gestalt and min-maxing years ago and I'm looking to return to the fun. This should be a good way to ease myself back in.

What's your stance on trip-fighters? It's been a while but I recall making trip fighters where you can trip from 5-15 feet, as an attack of oppurtunity, with DEX bonus attacks of opportunity, at rather silly bonuses in the opposed roll. Given that basically anything productive that you can do from the ground provokes an AoO, it was pretty funny to play.

I don't think that any of the feats involved were from region books but starting lvl 1 may make it tough. My plan, upon reading the first post, was to have shitty equipment for a while and spend all gold leveling for feats but the 1 level per region rule would also make that difficult. How high of a level is this going to? I would have to turn him into an anti-mage if we were to get to higher levels or I'd be completely useless all the time.

I assume that we can't put levels into monster classes at a later date? It could be kind of explained off with some spell that turns you into something else but it's pretty sketchy.

Anywho, looking forward to playing.

Edit: One more thing of note, I did use flaws to get feats when I made that character. It will be even more challenging if I can't get the feats I need. Perhaps anything martial that isn't ToB isn't such a good idea.

Edit the second: What's your opinion on Vow of Poverty fixes/how would that work with this game using gold for everything? VoP fix
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 09:28:54 PM by bridgar »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2014, 09:40:33 PM »
Hey dither, sorry I was out of town for a couple days. So, where would you like to discuss the GW Ranger? A lot of your questions will be addressed with some context on the project.

If you're ok with it as-is, I'll start charbuilding.
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Offline samnemath

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2014, 02:35:38 AM »
I am also still here. Just trying to come up with an idea on what to play and coming up with a blank.

Offline McPoyo

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2014, 08:41:11 AM »
Bridgar, I don't know that CoP would be the best idea, since at best the party is looking like "morally questionable", and is quite likely to be flat out evil.

Offline dither

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2014, 12:22:16 PM »
It's really a shame that so many "lateral play options" are locked away behind Evil actions, but there you are.

RE: VoP and Fixes
I'd pretty much put these in the same category as homebrew.

What's your grievance with VoP as written?

Context of VoP is that the rest of the party shouldn't get bigger shares just because you give up your share. I think your level advancement will be dependent upon the party spending GP on your behalf -- but that doesn't account for the treasure you'd have to donate to charity to satisfy the "poverty" aspect, etc.

Let me think on this a bit and I'll get back to you.


--Dither
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Offline bridgar

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2014, 01:30:34 PM »
RE: VoP and Fixes
I'd pretty much put these in the same category as homebrew.

It is homebrew, that's why I asked.  :D

Quote
What's your grievance with VoP as written?

My biggest grievance with VoP is that it shoehorns you into being some super-religious crusader and doesn't offer much in return.

It requires that you take Sacred Vow (waste of a precious feat), it gives you exalted bonus feats (shoehorning), and can't even come close to competing with real equipment as written.

VoP seems to be written as a religious offering to your god that only the most zealous of followers offer. I kind of view it as anyone who isn't dependent on material items to be competent. I think that it's really best suited for monks and there's no reason that a monk has to be religious. I also don't see why a strongly religious zealot would have to be good to take up the Vow of Poverty.

Additionally, I often see Vow of Poverty as a way to even the playing field between martials and casters. The first three levels of VoP fix are all defensive to make up for your lack of armor but give you nothing else. The first bonus to damage comes at level 4, when casters are getting damage spells. Your first utility comes at 5, when casters are generally getting their magic items of utility.

I think that it's a better scaled and more generic version of Vow of Poverty that's aiming to enable equipment-agnostic play and to push towards equalizing the gap between casters and martials.

Quote
Context of VoP is that the rest of the party shouldn't get bigger shares just because you give up your share. I think your level advancement will be dependent upon the party spending GP on your behalf -- but that doesn't account for the treasure you'd have to donate to charity to satisfy the "poverty" aspect, etc.

Let me think on this a bit and I'll get back to you.


--Dither

Right, I can't double dip; I can't get the bonuses from VoP and get the gold to turn into xp for more bonuses. I think that my share of gold would be donated to the party or to some charity or there is just "less gold found" and I don't take a share BUT that I would still level once per region.

I'm not insistent on VoP, it's just a fun way to spice up martials.

Offline McPoyo

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2014, 01:49:23 PM »
The point of VoP is that you are empowered by a deity for forgoing material goods and possessions, suffering for your piety. If you want "effective without gear", go psionic for combat. Or anything castery otherwise.

Offline bridgar

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2014, 02:13:06 PM »
The point of VoP is that you are empowered by a deity for forgoing material goods and possessions, suffering for your piety. If you want "effective without gear", go psionic for combat. Or anything castery otherwise.

Exactly! There's no room in this world for a man who's simply legendary at fighting? Everyone needs some magic augmentation to be competent? ToB helped a lot. If I can't use VoP, I may end up that route.

Offline McPoyo

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2014, 02:23:48 PM »
No, there's room for it, look at any ubercharger or lockdown build. But he's never going to be able to reshape reality with a thought by swinging his sword.

Offline bridgar

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2014, 03:22:56 PM »
No, there's room for it, look at any ubercharger or lockdown build. But he's never going to be able to reshape reality with a thought by swinging his sword.

Look at VoP fix. I don't think it is what you think it is. It's pretty much a buff to VoP that makes it scale and removes the alignment-associated stuff.

Edit: I don't want to be confrontational or have an argument about this. If it's ruled against, I have no problem with that.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 03:30:10 PM by bridgar »

Offline dither

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2014, 05:50:00 PM »
I can see the argument that there isn't anything especially Good about asceticism that would deny access to Neutral or Evil characters. It's honestly a better (easier to follow) Code of Conduct than what the paladin gets.

And Sacred Vow is kind of a lame feat (strictly worse than Skill Focus?) so I'll give this a pass.

The fix looks fine -- I'll leave it to you to convince your party of the necessary donations / sacrifices for character advancement. Coincidentally, I watched a kung-fu movie last night about some Evil, materialistic monks. The hero was a Robin Hood-esque figure robbing from corrupt governmant officials and giving to impoverished refugees.

Good times.

For the sake of advance planning to your guys' benefit, I plan to use the standard settlment sizes from 4e -- three basic categories (village, town, and city) with populations of 500, 5k, and 50k respectively. In case you find the need to abduct/slaughter peasants enmasse in a hurry.

I'm trying to think of the significant changes that 4e used to make Fighters better, but I think a lot of it had to do with everyone else being Brought Down To Normal.


--Dither

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Offline bridgar

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2014, 06:33:41 PM »
I can see the argument that there isn't anything especially Good about asceticism that would deny access to Neutral or Evil characters. It's honestly a better (easier to follow) Code of Conduct than what the paladin gets.

And Sacred Vow is kind of a lame feat (strictly worse than Skill Focus?) so I'll give this a pass.

The fix looks fine -- I'll leave it to you to convince your party of the necessary donations / sacrifices for character advancement. Coincidentally, I watched a kung-fu movie last night about some Evil, materialistic monks. The hero was a Robin Hood-esque figure robbing from corrupt governmant officials and giving to impoverished refugees.

In that case, I give you Grim, the street thug. Story coming, something along the lines of being his neighborhood's enforcer and protector.

Quote
I'm trying to think of the significant changes that 4e used to make Fighters better, but I think a lot of it had to do with everyone else being Brought Down To Normal.


--Dither

Giving them fancy maneuvers and such made them more interesting and fun to play; ToB did some of that for 3.5. Also, their ability to defend allies in times of need was really cool. Much later in this build, I can do similar things. This is a feat-heavy lockdown build that doesn't deal much damage but has a lot of zone control.  :D

Offline dither

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2014, 07:41:23 PM »
Oh no, no backgrounds. Everything is trying to kill you.

Survive a few levels and then you'll have a background. ;)

edit: If everyone has a build ready and we don't have a subforum come Monday morning, I'm inclined to start here.

Thoughts? Comments? Dissent?

--Dither
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 07:45:46 PM by dither »
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Offline bridgar

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Re: [3.5] Everything Trying To Kill You
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2014, 07:43:24 PM »
Oh no, no backgrounds. Everything is trying to kill you.

Survive a few levels and then you'll have a background. ;)


--Dither

Phew. Writing backgrounds is hard.  :cool