Author Topic: Pathfinder Tier Balancing Quest  (Read 3020 times)

Offline age.of.sorrows

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Pathfinder Tier Balancing Quest
« on: June 15, 2014, 03:08:29 AM »
Greetings, My Min Maxy Friends!

My quest is not simple, nor is it easy, but I must complete it.

I'm looking at putting together an allowed class list for a pathfinder power-level game set in the outer planes. Going through themes and such, i found concepts i'd like to work in, but one of them is the poor malnourished rogue and another is the rather beastly spirit shaman.   

First thing's first, according to ImperatorK, the pathfinder tiers for base clases go something like this:

This time Pathfinder only. Last time I was making it 3.P, but not everyone is playing with 3.X materials, so...



Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard, Oracle (with Paragon Surge), Sorcerer (with Paragon Surge);

Tier 2: Psion, Oracle, Sorcerer, Summoner, Bard (Magician w/ Paragon Surge);

Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Psychic Warrior, Wilder;

Tier 4: Barbarian, Fighter, Gunslinger, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Soulknife;

Tier 5: Cavalier, Expert, Monk, Samurai;

Tier 6: Aristocrat, Commoner, Warrior;



StreamoftheSky, however chimed in to discuss Rogues and their many woes, and I feel him. I really do.


That backstory out of the way, here's the challenge:

1: i'm using ken hood's grim and gritty hit point system for 3.0. I'm making changes to the relevant skills to fit the PF skill list and CMD/CMB system  (http://riivo.talviste.ee/dnd/grim-n-gritty/GrimNGrittyHitPointRules3.3.pdf)  The relevance of this, is that sneak attack becomes less of a damage punch and more of an armor negator and status effect attack (read pounce in the document for more details, but yeah, TL;DR all over the place here, so i wont crucify if you don't read. the short version is: Rogues do less damage, as people have less hit points.)  I'm limiting spell damage and maneuver damage to reel it in some, but this doesn't fix the problem with Rogue's already doing crap damage without nurfing their one major power... which is now nurfed.

2: I'm using ken hood's martial arts system, again, with modifications to bring it into the 3.75 era to skills (http://riivo.talviste.ee/dnd/grim-n-gritty/d20Skills-n-FeatsMartialArtsSystem.pdf)

4: I want to use these classes, for thematic purposes. I want to run a planescape campegn, and make conversions to classic 2e modules (faction war, dead gods, the great modron march) and looking at the themeing around spells they have, I need certain spellcaster troupes. Obvoiusly druid is right out, as is cleric and wizard, as they are god-tier.  I'm covereing the "cleric" troupe with Inquisitor, modified healer, and Oracle. I'm covering the Wizard troupe with Beguiler, Summoner, Warmage, and D. Necro.  I'm lifting fighter into tier 3 by folding weapon mastery into warblade, and crusader is here to replace paladin.

Le List (names are based off of Sigilian PS "cant" here's a dictionary for the uninitiated: http://www.mimir.net/cant/cant2.html:

Fighter Types:
Sword-Swinger (Warblade + Fighter's Weapon Mastery)
Tinman (Crusader)
Bloody Basher (Barbarian +....? This is a tier 4-5 class, i need to buff up to tier 3)

Rogue Types:
Knight of the Post (Rogue +....? Rogue needs serious help)
Gearhead (A sort of buffed bodger. Has some non-magical crafting and a few gunslinger grit type powers. )
Backringer (A ranger toupe, but converted from a front line guy to a trapsrpinger)
Mad Cook (Alchemist)

Priest Types:
Addle-Cove (Oracle)
Holy roller (Inquisitor)
Street Doc (Healer + BoED sanctified spells. ONLY this class will be able to use them)
Ghost Lover (Spirit Shaman -... something. Spirit SHaman is coasting between tier 2 and three, and needs to be taken down a notch)

Arcane Casters:
Music Box (bard)
Tickler (Summoner)
Mindbender (Beguiler)
Spellslinger (Warmage)
Dustie (D. Necro)

All classes will get a 2 skills/level boost.

TL; DR:  seeking help for these challenges:
Reel in Spirit Shaman to tier 3
Buff Barbarian to Tier 3
Buff Rogue to Tier 3
Find out how to make ranger have no spells, but trap springing abilities... and be in the tier 3-4 range after that
do all of this without making sneak attacks more lethal. Sneak attacks have a heavy nurf from the Gritty HP system.

Any suggestions at all appreciated, I know this is a big big question!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 03:12:08 AM by age.of.sorrows »

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Pathfinder Tier Balancing Quest
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2014, 12:01:10 AM »
I'm not reading those 3.0 rules....  Just going off the bottom:

Buff Rogue to Tier 3 w/o making SA do more damage:
- Rogue adds his class level as an untyped bonus to all skill checks.  He adds double his class level on Acrobatics checks made to tumble, Perception checks made to Search, and all Disable Device checks.
- At every 3rd level, Rogue picks two skills to always take 10 on.  That's 12 skills by level 18, in other words.
- Rogue also adds his class level to Initiative.  Starting at level...let's say 5 (far enough in to not be worth just dipping for), if his Initiative -20 is still a higher number than at least one of the enemies, rogue gets a 2nd entire turn each round at his Init count -20.
- Rogue gets a good base will save.  It just...helps with MAD.
- Sneak Attack not only works in concealment, it lets you reduce miss chance by 20%.
- Rogue gains 3E's Darkstalker and Staggering Strike feats as bonus feats at...let's say levels 2 and 7.
- Rogue and Ninja are merged into a single class, which gets all the class features of both.  Ki points and all other relevant class features (including ones with save DCs) use either Int or Cha, at the rogue's discretion at character creation.

I think that just might do it...


Buff Barbarian to Tier 3: I don't know what to do...Barb is fine in combat (other than unconsciousness = instant death due to rage ending), you basically just need to add out of combat options.  Not sure what they should be.  Maybe the ability to use Intimidate for other skills similar to a bard w/ versatile performance.  Maybe some abilities to consult with nature spirits for divination effects.

Spell-less Ranger that's tier 3-4....
- Assign your favored enemies daily however you like
- Ditto for Favored Terrains
- Full animal companion progression and choose any type of animal you want (like a druid)
- Some other stuff I can't think of right now.  Maybe incorporate some of the abilities of my Bounty Hunter archetype without losing the associated class features.
*Alternatively, just use Wildshape Ranger from 3E with Master of Many Forms.  Or use my Ranger archetype in its entirety.*

I know far too little of Spirit Shaman to give advice there.

Offline SolEiji

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Re: Pathfinder Tier Balancing Quest
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2014, 12:38:50 AM »
- Rogue also adds his class level to Initiative.  Starting at level...let's say 5 (far enough in to not be worth just dipping for), if his Initiative -20 is still a higher number than at least one of the enemies, rogue gets a 2nd entire turn each round at his Init count -20.

...

Buff Barbarian to Tier 3: I don't know what to do...Barb is fine in combat (other than unconsciousness = instant death due to rage ending), you basically just need to add out of combat options.

IMHO the initiative thing doesn't need to be that high, it can be 1/2 class level.  One, you don't have to push it back to level 5 and two, +20 is excessive especially given how he already will have good Dex, and after a certain point you're auto-winning against non-rogues anyway.

A easy fix for the barbarian death thing is by having them expand the hp they die at.  That's a constant thing, not just in rage, and very fitting with barbarians anyway.
Alternatively, just have it do that if they are dead due to the rage ending they are stable and alive, even if that pushes them past their normal -hp (being an exception to the rule of dying at -10).  They just can't lose any more hp or they'll die immediately.
Mudada.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Pathfinder Tier Balancing Quest
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2014, 02:21:07 AM »
There are casters with class features to add half level to initiative already.  Many other casters have abilities to roll 2d20 or even 3d20 and pick the highest for init.  Diviner Wizard's capstone is to "take 20" on initiative, iirc.  Rogue should be better than them at initiative, and the casters have spells to further boost the check (like the level 1 spell for +5 init).  Pretty much any of the flat number boosts I included were there because there's a caster class feature that already does something like that.  The level 5 thing was specifically for the double turn, to make it too late to be a worthwhile dip (unless you liked other rogue features anyway) but early enough to see use.  Not for the bonus itself.

The easiest fix for Barb's sudden death is to just freaking go back to 3.5E rules where being unconscious doesn't freaking end the rage.  At least, Barb should get to choose as he falls unconscious to keep it up or not.

Offline age.of.sorrows

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Re: Pathfinder Tier Balancing Quest
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2014, 02:43:16 AM »
Thanks for the advice guys.  @ stream: I'm actually surprised i got a response from you directly, but its my ideal.

You're basically the king of fighting the good fight for thieves, knaves, and scalawags.

Spirit shaman is basically a spontaneously casting druid without wild-shape, can only get an animal companion with a feat (telthor companion), but has a bunch of ghost and elemental-based schitck. He can chastise spirits much the way a cleric turns undead (or channels energy). Spirits is a much more tighter defined class than "undead" however, and refers only to elemental and incorporeal creatures. He's got a few fluffy abilities related to his spirit guide (alertness, other non-important flavor buffs)  and he uses two stats to cast from (wisdom for highest spell level, charisma for bonus spells and DC)

The problem with it is that, as written, the Spirit Shaman can re-learn their spontaneous spells known with an 8 hour rest, giving them access to the full druid list in much the same way a wizard has access to pretty much every wizard spell.  I could limit it to a sorcerer-type spells known, but that seems like the class is crap at that point and no one would ever take it.

Would it be out of hat to reduce their casting stat to wisdom only if I made this change? It makes them a sort of nature sorcerer.

Another thing of note is that the "spirit" schitck is a little bigger in a planar game, as elemental creatures are much more common in such a setting.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 02:46:49 AM by age.of.sorrows »

Offline age.of.sorrows

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Re: Pathfinder Tier Balancing Quest
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2014, 02:57:45 AM »
One possible idea: would it be too out of hand to toss shadow hand at rogues?

Ninja fluff is a little out of place in cockney-rich sigil.

Also, What about if I kill detect magic as a spell? Maybe its an ability that spellcasters can use, but they have to have accsess to a library or something of that sort, preventing them from taking over the trap guy's job?

Further, all this added BS about "take a feat, get trapfinding" is a big no, and no unseen servant cheese allowed?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 03:17:54 AM by age.of.sorrows »