Author Topic: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E  (Read 35757 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2015, 05:50:46 PM »
My guess is the reason Pathfinder seems wildly more popular is that its fan base is a lot more vocal online. PF whole selling point was that it's a replacement for people who were passionate about the d20 system and angered by the direction Wizards took with 4e. By definition, those people are going to be especially vocal online.
Heh.

Back when Pathfinder kicked off, I noted that their plan was basically to cater to people who were both easily and vocally offended.

I'm honestly impressed that they're doing as well as they are. They chose to play to a difficult crowd, and they're succeeding in spite of that.


 :eh :tongue ... Perhaps the ultra-grogs haven't discovered google quite yet.


Are you saying they're a bunch of yahoos?


 :) ... hey what do you expect from Americans On Line ?

This umm Wiz-pocalypse, won't help 4e or 5e popularity at all.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 05:55:58 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline fearsomepirate

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2015, 11:36:19 PM »
My guess is the reason Pathfinder seems wildly more popular is that its fan base is a lot more vocal online. PF whole selling point was that it's a replacement for people who were passionate about the d20 system and angered by the direction Wizards took with 4e. By definition, those people are going to be especially vocal online.
Heh.

Back when Pathfinder kicked off, I noted that their plan was basically to cater to people who were both easily and vocally offended.

I'm honestly impressed that they're doing as well as they are. They chose to play to a difficult crowd, and they're succeeding in spite of that.
Well, they've clearly done a good job supporting their product, judging by how much stuff there is at game shops from them. Most of the minis we're using in my 5e campaign are Pathfinder-branded, and we're also using PF's Critical Fumble deck.

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2015, 11:42:21 PM »
What can I say? Gamers like new toys but hate new rules.
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Offline Pity Crit

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2015, 02:08:14 PM »
I do sort of wonder how much folly has been perpetrated by TSR, WOTC and Hasbro trying to turn D&D into what it was in the eighties, whereas a company like Paizo doesn't need to spend nearly as much money on marketing to reach their intended audience because they already know about them.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 02:10:04 PM by Pity Crit »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2015, 03:39:21 PM »
My guess is the reason Pathfinder seems wildly more popular is that its fan base is a lot more vocal online.
80% of the noise online only comes the same 20% of the player base reposting over and over again according to the Pareto principle.  ;)

Offline Samwise

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2015, 09:44:45 PM »
80% of the noise online only comes the same 20% of the player base reposting over and over again according to the Pareto principle.  ;)

For RPG forum noise, I'd suspect that is an underestimate because of a layered effect:
20% cares enough to participate online;
then 20% of that drives the forums;
So maybe 4% in the end.

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2015, 09:32:02 AM »
I do sort of wonder how much folly has been perpetrated by TSR, WOTC and Hasbro trying to turn D&D into what it was in the eighties, whereas a company like Paizo doesn't need to spend nearly as much money on marketing to reach their intended audience because they already know about them.
Not sure what you mean here?

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2015, 11:16:21 AM »
Market dominance maybe?

Given my experience with Pathfinder players I've encountered, a completely armchair theory might be that PF claimed a huge advantage by moving when they did.  The story goes something like this.  4E soured a bunch of people, who liked 3E but were also a little janky on its rules and fiddliness.  Pathfinder swoops in, rescuing them from 4E while giving them something like 3E but new, a little streamlined, and so on. 

Now 5E has a very hard uphill battle.  It's got to compete with a game that's well-established and that really benefited from its similarity to 3E, which had, I think, huge market dominance in its heyday.

I don't know how related this is, but I'm consistently sort of ... shocked, I guess, at how un-rules-oriented most Pathfinder players are.  It's not an inherently bad thing to prefer a lighter rules system or less involved and time-consuming encounters.  That's a personal preference and one that strikes me as completely reasonable. 

What makes less sense to me is why people who demonstrate those preferences gravitate to what is among the most rules-laden, splatbook proliferating, and so forth systems in the market right now. 

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2015, 12:53:12 PM »
Thanks Un-B makes sense.  :D

Offline Samwise

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2015, 01:30:09 PM »
Given my experience with Pathfinder players I've encountered, a completely armchair theory might be that PF claimed a huge advantage by moving when they did.  The story goes something like this.  4E soured a bunch of people, who liked 3E but were also a little janky on its rules and fiddliness.  Pathfinder swoops in, rescuing them from 4E while giving them something like 3E but new, a little streamlined, and so on.

I'd say that's precisely what it was, with an assist from Paizo presenting itself as "transgressive" and all that, including more "gritty" material that couldn't make it past the Hasbro/WotC censors.
They also benefitted by WotC trashing the print magazines, allowing Paizo to pick up an already stockpiled mailing/customer list.

Quote
What makes less sense to me is why people who demonstrate those preferences gravitate to what is among the most rules-laden, splatbook proliferating, and so forth systems in the market right now.

It isn't just the players but the designers who wallow in this kind of raw cognitive dissonance over rules systems.
After 35+ years with RPGs I no longer try to understand it, I simply expect it.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2015, 01:55:38 PM »

What makes less sense to me is why people who demonstrate those preferences gravitate to what is among the most rules-laden, splatbook proliferating, and so forth systems in the market right now.

About half my current 5e group also plays a Pathfinder game and one of them is the DM for that game.  Rather than just play 5e, they keep houseruling their Pathfinder game to include aspects of 5e.  They'd have an easier time converting their Pathfinder characters to 5e from what I can see, but they're too set in their ways about Pathfinder class identities to realize they can make the same concepts work in a different system.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2015, 04:58:00 PM »
All that raw material from 3.0 3.5 3.PF , and even 4e
... yeah it's a lot of stuff that could be converted to 5e.

IF what's generally been reported is true enough
to be > truthyness, then the real $$ sales figures go :

3.0e  >>  3.5e  >>  3.PF  >>  4e*  >>  5e**
... with * 4e only at it's start outselling 3.PF,
and ** 5e being early in it's cycle, wtf outcome.

3rd party aftermarket with speculation would go :
PF  >>>>>>>>  3.X everybody elses  >>>>>>  5e* probably already  >  4e
... with a caveat, that * 5e is officially 2nd partying 5e, see SCAG. **

 :??? yes maybe ?  :-\

** nope , boo boo
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 03:57:07 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2015, 05:08:31 PM »
I'd say that's precisely what it was, with an assist from Paizo presenting itself as "transgressive" and all that, including more "gritty" material that couldn't make it past the Hasbro/WotC censors.
I wasn't aware of this.  Do you have some ready examples?  Just curious. 

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2015, 05:50:04 PM »
Given my experience with Pathfinder players I've encountered, a completely armchair theory might be that PF claimed a huge advantage by moving when they did.  The story goes something like this.  4E soured a bunch of people, who liked 3E but were also a little janky on its rules and fiddliness.  Pathfinder swoops in, rescuing them from 4E while giving them something like 3E but new, a little streamlined, and so on. 

Now 5E has a very hard uphill battle.  It's got to compete with a game that's well-established and that really benefited from its similarity to 3E, which had, I think, huge market dominance in its heyday.

Yeah that's the general narrative that's been referenced a few times on this thread.  I'm sure there's more than a grain of truth to it, but it's not the whole story.

I don't know how related this is, but I'm consistently sort of ... shocked, I guess, at how un-rules-oriented most Pathfinder players are.  It's not an inherently bad thing to prefer a lighter rules system or less involved and time-consuming encounters.  That's a personal preference and one that strikes me as completely reasonable. 

What makes less sense to me is why people who demonstrate those preferences gravitate to what is among the most rules-laden, splatbook proliferating, and so forth systems in the market right now.

It seems a bit counterintuitive, and I have noticed this as well.  It does make some sense though if you look at it from a certain perspective: people who prefer lighter rules may want to pick and choose which rules they follow.  In a rules-heavy, splatbook-laden game like PF you can choose to ignore certain rules, certain books, certain subsystems, and modify other rules as you see fit without changing the basic structure of the game, all because the material is already there to be pruned into the game you want.  In a game with fewer rules its harder to cut something out or change a mechanic without drastically changing the game.  Metaphorically, your perfect game is a bowl; PF is a lump of clay, while more streamlined systems are plastic bowls that may or may not be the right size.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2015, 06:39:24 PM »
I don't know how related this is, but I'm consistently sort of ... shocked, I guess, at how un-rules-oriented most Pathfinder players are.  It's not an inherently bad thing to prefer a lighter rules system or less involved and time-consuming encounters.  That's a personal preference and one that strikes me as completely reasonable. 

What makes less sense to me is why people who demonstrate those preferences gravitate to what is among the most rules-laden, splatbook proliferating, and so forth systems in the market right now.

It seems a bit counterintuitive, and I have noticed this as well.  It does make some sense though if you look at it from a certain perspective: people who prefer lighter rules may want to pick and choose which rules they follow.  In a rules-heavy, splatbook-laden game like PF you can choose to ignore certain rules, certain books, certain subsystems, and modify other rules as you see fit without changing the basic structure of the game, all because the material is already there to be pruned into the game you want.  In a game with fewer rules its harder to cut something out or change a mechanic without drastically changing the game.  Metaphorically, your perfect game is a bowl; PF is a lump of clay, while more streamlined systems are plastic bowls that may or may not be the right size.

On the contrary, the "more streamlined systems" are bowls of clay. PF is also a bowl of clay, but one that comes with a bunch of plastic molds to quickly shape that clay if you don't feel creative.

Basically PF has a crapload of campaigns, monsters and statted-up NPCs. It's actually quite easy for a new DM+party to jump in and start playing, and then have material to keep going for years.

Meanwhile the "more streamlined systems" only offer you half a dozen NPCs and one-two adventure paths. If you're lucky. More often than not it's "You'll have to stat up every NPC from scratch. Have fun!"

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2015, 06:55:47 PM »
I don't know how related this is, but I'm consistently sort of ... shocked, I guess, at how un-rules-oriented most Pathfinder players are.  It's not an inherently bad thing to prefer a lighter rules system or less involved and time-consuming encounters.  That's a personal preference and one that strikes me as completely reasonable. 

What makes less sense to me is why people who demonstrate those preferences gravitate to what is among the most rules-laden, splatbook proliferating, and so forth systems in the market right now.

It seems a bit counterintuitive, and I have noticed this as well.  It does make some sense though if you look at it from a certain perspective: people who prefer lighter rules may want to pick and choose which rules they follow.  In a rules-heavy, splatbook-laden game like PF you can choose to ignore certain rules, certain books, certain subsystems, and modify other rules as you see fit without changing the basic structure of the game, all because the material is already there to be pruned into the game you want.  In a game with fewer rules its harder to cut something out or change a mechanic without drastically changing the game.  Metaphorically, your perfect game is a bowl; PF is a lump of clay, while more streamlined systems are plastic bowls that may or may not be the right size.

On the contrary, the "more streamlined systems" are bowls of clay. PF is also a bowl of clay, but one that comes with a bunch of plastic molds to quickly shape that clay if you don't feel creative.

Basically PF has a crapload of campaigns, monsters and statted-up NPCs. It's actually quite easy for a new DM+party to jump in and start playing, and then have material to keep going for years.

Meanwhile the "more streamlined systems" only offer you half a dozen NPCs and one-two adventure paths. If you're lucky. More often than not it's "You'll have to stat up every NPC from scratch. Have fun!"

I bow to your superior metaphor-fu.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2015, 07:46:09 PM »
Basically PF has a crapload of campaigns, monsters and statted-up NPCs. It's actually quite easy for a new DM+party to jump in and start playing, and then have material to keep going for years.
Monster Manuals are one of the great joys of D&D and Pathfinder.  Pick cool things off the rack and you're halfway home. 

Meanwhile the "more streamlined systems" only offer you half a dozen NPCs and one-two adventure paths. If you're lucky. More often than not it's "You'll have to stat up every NPC from scratch. Have fun!"
If you get really good with the systems you can kind of "wing" NPCs, although it's tough.  Frankly, it's one of the things that annoys me about them.  I've been mucking around a bit with Savage Worlds lately, and there's a lot of points where the game is "figure it out yourself," and I find myself shouting at the pdf "but that's your job!"

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2015, 09:12:04 PM »
Basically PF has a crapload of campaigns, monsters and statted-up NPCs. It's actually quite easy for a new DM+party to jump in and start playing, and then have material to keep going for years.
Monster Manuals are one of the great joys of D&D and Pathfinder.  Pick cool things off the rack and you're halfway home. 
Yeah. I've even heard that the MM was actually the first D&D book published. And I've seen many people claim that the MM is actually the most important part of any TT game. I find myself agreeing with them, since it's kinda pointless to have the best character creation/resolution system if you don't actually have any challenges to pit the party against. Heros are measured by the enemies they defeat and so on.

Actually one of the things I've been doing in my free time is stating up a bunch of ready-to-go NPCs and some sort of basic campaign for my SRW d20 project. Because the basis is supporting a mecha campaign, but it's kinda hard for any other DM to start one if they're expected to stat up the opposition from scratch.

Offline Samwise

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2015, 12:52:43 AM »
I wasn't aware of this.  Do you have some ready examples?  Just curious.

PFRPG Ogres

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/ogre

Quote
Stories are told of ogres—horrendous stories of brutality and savagery, cannibalism and torture. Of rape and dismemberment, necrophilia, incest, mutilation, and all manners of hideous murder. Those who have not encountered ogres know the stories as warnings. Those who have survived such encounters know these tales to be tame compared to the truth.

And by "stories", they mean things like The Hook Mountain Massacre, the third installment of their first adventure path. Which of course was an entire adventure predicated on magic organized according to the Seven Deadly Sins.
Just how bad is THMM?
Bad enough that between it, the chapter before it - The Skinsaw Murders, and some of the first modules, it prompted a discussion in the Paizo forums as to whether Paizo was a torture pr0n publisher. And not a hedged discussion - an open and direct one - "Are you guys just going to keep publishing all this torture pr0n?" The response from the authors and Paizo was less "Of course not!" and more "Well, that isn't technically torture pr0n." (and technically it isn't - more The Hills Have Eyes than Hostel, but whatever) winding up with them trying to say rather coyly that they'd be happy to give people whatever they wanted, even if that meant going the full torture pr0n.
Which . .  they seem to have done.

Then there is their boasting about having an openly gay iconic pregen character, and making other noise about such issues as part of their content.
Which inclusion doesn't particularly matter to me, I just find the need to boast about it rather puerile.
That sort of leads into the stink they made with Drive Thru RPG about a supplement with the PF logo that they objected to without reading because of the title but that showed them trying to play the SJW game while ignoring some of their own transgressions in a hypocritical manner.

Altogether, that's Paizo:
Where your gay character can be raped to death by ogres because their adventures are hardcore (yet provide safe spaces), and they saved you from having to play 4E by fixing the balance problems of 3.5 by adding a +3 LA template to CoDzilla and nerfing Skilly McSwordnboard so he would be just as strong as a Commoner so everything is fair.

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Popularity of 3.5E/PF over 4E/5E
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2015, 03:00:04 PM »
... with a caveat, that * 5e is officially 2nd partying 5e, see SCAG.
So is 5E 2nd partying or not? And what is SCAG?

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