Author Topic: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...  (Read 20913 times)

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« on: June 04, 2013, 02:53:02 AM »
So, my 14th level PC's were on an epic MacGuffin quest into Niflheim.  The thing that was going to make this quest different was that it was going to require some puzzle solving and out-of-the-box thinking to survive and succeed.

They found a guide that could lead them to Yggdrasil, which is sort of a nexus of existence, and can lead to all of the Nine Worlds via the different transitive planes.  The guide, a Xill, turned them all ethereal, at which point the impressive-but-normal-sized ash tree was seen in its true form, with a height and canopy bowl the size of a small mountain.  He led them up to a hole in the tree trunk up in the branches.

Inside, the tree was hollow and had a spiraling staircase heading up and down.  The Xill led them down, passing a few other doorways (the other material worlds that also had an ethereal plane), and finally came to the bottom, with a door leading to Niflheim's ethereal plane.  They crawled out and crept away.  As soon as the Xill turned them back material (each of the Nine Worlds is its own material plane, with one, two, or all three of the standard transitive planes; Niflheim's ethereal plane is a different plane than Midgard's ethereal plane, etc.), Níðhöggr (represented as a Great Wyrm Force Dragon), swooped down and snatched up the Xill, eating him, and inflicting an auto-quickened Feeble Mind on one of the party members.

The party dallied around and took several turns to escape via a dimension door; I made it clear that had they stuck around for another round or two, Níðhöggr would have killed them.  I also made it clear he was an obstacle to be avoided, not something to be faced openly.

All of Niflheim is covered in a fog effect that is basically Kelgore's Grave Mist from the PHB2; it fatigues those within it, and deals 1d6 points of cold damage per round; it also limits vision to approximately 100 feet.  Compare to Cania (the level of Hell) with does 10d6 points of cold damage every minute.  So, problem number one that needed to be solved, was surviving the night without freezing to death; in the morning the Druid could prepare Attune Form and they would all be fine.  But they had to survive the night first.

Between a Wizard//Rogue, a Beguiler//Barbarian, and a Druid//Sorcerer, you would think they could save themselves.  They nearly didn't.  It took a lot of prodding from me over e-mail during the week between sessions for them to figure out a way to save themselves.  Possible solutions:
• There was a dying Jarilith demon that the party had just defeated; they could have charmed it, healed it, and gotten information, including a place to find shelter from the mist.
• The sorcerer could try disintegrating a "room" into the side of a cliff-face, getting a bit of shelter (two castings would have made a deep enough "room" that the fog would have not reached the back; it doesn't go "inside," sort of like the mist from the Mistborn books)
• They could use disintegrate to make a room with a "wall" made of stone, then have the Beguiler cast Phase Door to make an ethereal pocket in which to camp out (they weren't subjected to the mist until they crossed from Niflheim's ethereal to its material plane).  This is the method they finally used.

Having survived the night, they must find the MacGuffin location.  All they know is that "it is a troll fortress in a mountain hard upon the River Slid."  A Knowledge (the Planes) check tells them that the River Slid is one of 11 rivers in Niflheim, that it flows toward the east, and that it is full of knives and blades.  It takes them a while, but they eventually find it and make use of Lay of the Land to start getting an idea of what is around.

With no transitive shadow plane on Niflheim (it only has the ethereal), their normal tactic of Shadow Walking wasn't going to work.  The vegetation on Niflheim is quite sparse; perhaps only two of the same species within every 50 miles or so.  Due to the sparseness of the trees, the Druid doesn't want to Transport via Plants.  After 3 or 4 days of walking east, they finally decide to transport via plants, first using Lay of the Land, then Transporting, then using Lay of the Land again to see if any landmarks overlapped, so they can accurately judge how far they had traveled.  This worked out well, and they found the mountain after a few transports.

The "trolls" in question are "demon blooded," and are statistically Slaadi.  I won't get into exactly why, but the Slaadi fortress is actually inside the mountain, and is composed of rooms and "apartments" that have been disintegrated into the stone of the mountain.  The original creators of this place all racially had spellcasting, so for security purposes they made use of Passwall, then would disintegrate a "room" into the stone.  Once the Passwall ended, you would have a fully-enclosed cubic void.  Rinse and repeat, and you end up with a mountain filled with rooms, but no hallways (the original inhabitants would just dimension door and teleport around).

At some point the army of Slaadi invaded and took over the mountain fortress, as the Blue Slaadi can use Passwall at will.  Thus, my PC's have an oddity of a "dungeon" to explore, with hallways that would disappear (8-hour duration on Passwall), eventually "trapping" them in a small quadrant.  This was another puzzle to solve, with a few different solutions:
• The Wizard Dimension Doors the party around, getting shunted into the open spaces and taking a small bit of damage, but finding new sections to explore, and slaadi to encounter.
• The Beguiler uses Ethereal Jaunt to investigate nearby rooms to help direct the Wizard's Dimension Dooring.
• The party jumps into the Bag of Holding type 4 I dropped into the loot just before they came on the quest to Niflheim, and the Beguiler Ethereal Jaunts, taking the party with him.
• The party jumps into the Bag of Holding, the Beguiler takes it ethereal, then dumps the party onto the Ethereal Plane.  The Beguiler becomes material again, but the others can explore the fortress ethereally as long as they want.
• The Rogue//Fighter uses his brand new Ring of Blinking to blink back to the material plane and pick up the bag of holding... which has the Beguiler inside... hey look, the band's back together again!
• The Beguiler charms a Blue Slaad, and gets him to make hallways for the party.  Oh, and the party looks like Slaadi, thanks to Veil.  This is the method the party used, waltzing through the whole fortress, only fighting the BBEG with the MacGuffin (which is the tactic I was trying to discourage, because my PC's are too damn good at infiltration).  At least they are good at what they do.

The PC's get the MacGuffin (a Hammer of Thunderbolts), then teleport back near to Yggdrasil.  End of the third session in Niflheim.  They have a week to chat over email and brainstorm ways to get safely past Níðhöggr.  Again, this is a puzzle with two parts.  They need to figure out a way to get past the ultimate sentry without facing him directly.  They also know they need to be on the ethereal plane to access the pathway through the Tree, but only have access to Swift Etherealness (any touched target, lasts one round) and Ethereal Jaunt (personal range).  The Ethereal problem had a few solutions:
• Bag of Holding/Ethereal Jaunt shenanigans.  My PC's didn't figure this one out, even though they had earlier while in Niflheim made use of putting someone in a bag of holding to get their party under the creature limit for Dimension Door (the Tiger was large; they later resorted to Aspect of the Wolf to make him medium).
• Find another Xill (they knew they were from Niflheim), and get him to turn you Ethereal.  This is what they ended up doing.  They had a good plan of lending the Rogue's Ring of Blinking to the Beguiler, who cast Locate Creature, then blinked back and forth, basically searching both planes simultaneously.  Two hours in a search pattern, and he detected some that were in a natural cavern underground.

Lastly, the puzzle that got the whole party killed.  They had to sneak past a very tough sentry that could kill them outright with very little effort.  Doing this safely was going to require testing and probing carefully with spells to find the "holes" in his senses.  I guess I expected too much of the PC's, though.  I had devised two workable solutions, but there's always the possibility that the PC's come up with something else that works.
• Overwhelm Níðhöggr with targets.  The original idea came from me watching Serenity and thinking how awesome it was that Mal Reynolds brought the whole Reaver fleet after him to confront the Alliance blockade.  You can read more on my initial idea here.
• This could also be accomplished by summoning a boat-load of summed critters, and sending them all the dragon's way, and slip through while he's distracted.
• Find the hole in his senses, and exploit it to slip past him.

He was tough, and finding the hole in his senses was going to take some careful probing with spells from afar to gain more information on what he can detect, and what he can't.  What ended up happening was an hour of hypothesizing, and NO testing of anything, until they go for broke, and it failed.

He has nigh-unbeatable spot and listen checks (bonuses over 100), he has blindsense, and he always has See Invisibility up, which allows him to see ethereal creatures.  Being a "creature of pure force," a great wyrm force dragon can attack creatures on the ethereal plane, as can his breath weapon.  I'll tell you the hole right now: although he can sense material creatures (via blindsense) even if his vision is obscured, his blindsense doesn't cross over into the Ethereal plane, and if his vision is obscured by, oh, say... fog (hello control weather), he would not be able to see the party as they approached ethereally.

Before they arrived at the tree, they found their Xill helper, charmed him, and got the whole party ethereal.
The Wizard sends out some Prying Eyes.  One comes back.  What it showed was Yggdrasil off to the right as the eye approached the area, and another eye floating even closer to the tree.  Although it could not see Níðhöggr (he is naturally invisible), it did see rippling waves of concussive force as Níðhöggr breathed at and destroyed the other ethereal prying eye.  As no other eyes returned, one should be able to figure out Níðhöggr destroyed all the others.  Hey, look, the dragon can see and attack ethereal things.

They debate walking though the ground, both with their heads sticking out like alligators swimming through the water, and blindly while completely underground.  They have a general idea of where the doorway into the tree is, amongst the roots, but they can't see it from where they are (Níðhöggr has the advantage of being able to see ethereal creatures up to 100 feet away, while ethereal creatures can't see him until they are 60 feet away).

Should they use clairvoyance to look at the area (cast by the Beguiler)?  But that doesn't help the Wizard teleport them there with any more precision.  The topic of high-level wizards never being caught surprised comes up, as well as Anticipate Teleport specifically.  I heavily imply that Níðhöggr might have such a spell up and running (he does, and it is a Transdimensional spell version, so even though he is Material, he will still delay and know the arriving location of Ethereal teleporters).

After much debate, they came back around to their original idea, which was to try teleporting directly into the middle of the tree.  This idea was based upon the very flawed assumption that it's all one ethereal plane.  In truth, the nexus that is the center of Yggdrasil is sort of a world unto itself, and though reached through the ethereal plane (or other transitive planes, depending upon your location), you can only actually enter it through the doorway amongst the roots.  Trying to dimension door into it is like trying to use dimension door to travel from the ethereal plane of Niflheim to the ethereal plane of Midgard.

So, they dimension door into what is effectively a solid object, and get shunted to the nearest open space, right beside the tree.  But that pesky Anticipate Teleport comes into play.  Níðhöggr puts down a quickened force cage, then readies a Dimensional Lock over the cage once the PC's arrive inside it.  Fish, meet barrel.  After a few moments of sparse conversation he grows board with the attempted escapees, and breaths on them for 391 points of force damage.

My big mea culpa is that I, a scientist, designed this puzzle in a way that seemed logical to me.  You do not under any circumstances want to directly encounter Níðhöggr, and I made that abundantly clear.  To me, the logical thing to do is to test how good he is at sensing things using prying eyes and/or summoned creatures.  Don't rush it; take a day or two if need be, gather more information before planning your method of sneaking past.  Come up with hypotheses, then use your spells to test them, without putting yourself in direct danger.

It's possible other solutions would have worked, too.  Although inter-planar travel between the Nine Worlds is hampered (ala remote planes from Eberron, but harder), Banishing themselves back to Midgard would have worked eventually, though would have taken several failures along the way.  Perhaps days.  Just blindly "swimming" toward the Tree while traveling underground on the ethereal plane would also possibly have worked.  I did mention that when blind, people tend not to walk straight, and thus they would have diverted off course somewhat, but I didn't specify how much.  If they had actually given it a try, they would have probably run into the roots (which are physically there on the ethereal plane) and could have followed them toward the main body of the tree's base.

They did a whole lot of talking and thinking, and not much trying things out.  Maybe the puzzle was just too hard, and if so, that's my fault.  Regardless, they didn't really die "in battle," as they were effectively prisoners who got executed.  Thus, they didn't go to Valhalla; they washed up on the shores of a lake nearby to Yggdrasil in Niflheim (for lack of a better term, they are "Undead," but really they are just a corporeal form of a soul).  They have a slight nagging pull toward the east (where Helheim is located), but it's not a consuming urge yet.  If they are killed in this "Undead" form, they will be destroyed for good (I guess, I haven't given it that much thought) and if they follow the urge to head to Helheim, then these characters are effectively retired.

They have no equipment at all, but otherwise have all their abilities (no spells wiped from their minds or anything).  They did walk back and find the River Slid (which is full of blades) and find some basic, mundane swords.  They have the problem of having no material components, but I allowed that one of the daggers they pulled out of the river had a copper wire-wrapped handle.  A copper wire happens to be the material component for Sending.

They have an out... they helped some Hathran save the world.  A single Sending to them could get them True Resurrected, though they would owe the Hathran a debt for it, and they would lose all their equipment, and fail the MacGuffin quest (meaning a former player character-turned-NPC will likely die; he was kidnapped and would be released upon delivery of the MacGuffin).

I had devised the "Undead" thing when I was truly worried they would freeze to death after first getting to Niflheim.  It works just as well now, since they didn't die in combat, even if only on a technicality.

Anyway, the Druid//Sorcerer player is pissed; the others are just bummed.  We break for three weeks as some people go on vacations, and we will decide what to do between now and then.  If some of them want to be resurrected, and some bring in new characters, I'd be fine with that.  They can get resurrected and try to free their captured former party mate, but they probably aren't looking forward to fighting things higher than their EL, especially given they have no equipment.  (If they get resurrected, I plan to run them against creatures 2 or 3 CR lower than their party EL until they rebuild their wealth at a semi-Monty Haul pace.)

Anyway, don't know what I'm looking for in this thread.  Maybe I need a chiding for being a ridiculous TPK'ing DM, maybe my expectations weren't unrealistic, and my PC's just jump head-long into things when they should be a whole lot more cautious.  This really is the first time they've actually "failed" in this campaign, which stings for them, I'm sure.  Regardless, here is the tale of what happened.  Learn from it.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 03:09:09 AM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 03:41:39 AM »
One odd thing I notice about the TPK encounter is that they got past Níðhöggr on the way in and, from your account, he didn't seem nearly as deadly or effective of a guard. He showed up, waited a turn, killed their red shirt guide, waited another turn... At least, that's the impression I got from your post when the party was about to die of mist inhalation.

Compared to that encounter, this one had Níðhöggr acting infinitely more quickly and efficiently. Were the players aware they'd be facing this hyperefficient, puzzle to be carefully tested and solved Níðhöggr or were they expecting the awesomely powerful but unwilling to penetrate plot armor version they got the first go round (or is that not an accurate assessment of Níðhöggr the first go round?)

Also, did they have any reason to think that their teleport into the tree plan might not work? I would have been inclined to give a knowledge(the planes) check for that info or a hint towards it at least.

Could they not have rigged up a direction finding system to keep from getting lost underground? Find the Path seems like it would accomplish that all by itself. Otherwise something involving Lay of the Land and a pseudo compass type thing (prestidigitation to make a stick that always points in a single direction?) My impulse would probably have been to test the safety of the underground route using ethereal summons, then go with that as a plan if Níðhöggr seemed uninclined to dig for intruders.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 04:47:44 AM »
If the players don't themselves come up with any sort of reasonable tactic and that will mean a TPK, it is fair and even expected to give them some tips or hints, preferably based on some Int or Knowledge rolls. I mean, there was a Wizard and a Beguiler, two classes with high Int, who should have figured something out, or at least have some useful tidbit in their brains.
It's totally fine to let players make mistakes if they do something stupid or won't think about an obvious, simple solution. But if a TPK is an almost unavoidable outcome and it's not really the groups fault that they aren't savvy enough or can't read the DMs mind, then it's the DMs duty to help them.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 05:46:02 AM »
Who says the dead have to stay dead and won't just try and walk out? Hel hasn't got them yet. :lmao

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 09:27:00 AM »
One odd thing I notice about the TPK encounter is that they got past Níðhöggr on the way in and, from your account, he didn't seem nearly as deadly or effective of a guard. He showed up, waited a turn, killed their red shirt guide, waited another turn... At least, that's the impression I got from your post when the party was about to die of mist inhalation.

Compared to that encounter, this one had Níðhöggr acting infinitely more quickly and efficiently. Were the players aware they'd be facing this hyperefficient, puzzle to be carefully tested and solved Níðhöggr or were they expecting the awesomely powerful but unwilling to penetrate plot armor version they got the first go round (or is that not an accurate assessment of Níðhöggr the first go round?)
He's not so much concerned about things coming into Nilfheim as he is about things leaving.  So yeah, he's going to lock things down when anything tries to leave.

As to a direction finding system, they could have figured one up, especially since the Beguiler just got mindsight.  They could have wandered within 100 feet blindly underground, summoned something, and sent it to explore (also blindly).  The Beguiler could have been in communication with it the whole time, and would have had a homing beacon toward it.  Maybe it would have taken a few summons to finish, but the dragon wouldn't have even been able to detect the party while they were underground ethereally.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 09:56:25 AM »
I advocate plan B: fight their way out and get their stuff back. :p

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 11:32:34 AM »
If the players don't themselves come up with any sort of reasonable tactic and that will mean a TPK, it is fair and even expected to give them some tips or hints, preferably based on some Int or Knowledge rolls. I mean, there was a Wizard and a Beguiler, two classes with high Int, who should have figured something out, or at least have some useful tidbit in their brains.
It's totally fine to let players make mistakes if they do something stupid or won't think about an obvious, simple solution. But if a TPK is an almost unavoidable outcome and it's not really the groups fault that they aren't savvy enough or can't read the DMs mind, then it's the DMs duty to help them.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but what ever happened to trying things out and seeing what happens?  That's sort of the whole point of puzzles in the game, isn't it?  In this instance it would behoove the testers to start with testing things that aren't likely to lead to certain death if they fail.

I dunno, I just think some of the fun of the game is actually finding the answers for yourself, and not always having the DM give you the answer because you read it in a book (ie- a knowledge check).  What good is a puzzle encounter if the DM just gives you the answer because you decided not to be cautious in your approach to investigating it?

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 12:03:40 PM »
Not when the result is a TPK. And I don't mean "The dice weren't in the groups favor" TPK or "The encounter was tough but doable, but the group didn't make it" TPK. I mean a "The group didn't manage to read the DMs mind so rocks fall, everyone dies" TPK.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 12:06:23 PM »
I'm a stringent jerk. Bear that in mind.

Fair Warning is Fair Game is Fair Play.

They were warned "Thing gonna eat you".
They devised strategy. It wasn't going to work. You knew this. You owed them some form of prod.
They used Prying Eyes. Many got toasted in a way that said the current strategy wouldn't work. This was your prod.
They changed strategy in minor way. You no longer owed them prod / hint, because they already saw one plan fail, they should have thought to make some modicum of an attempt to learn from that.

As a DM, you should help out your players when they are ignorant, that is to say, they haven't had the opportunity to properly learn.
But this was idiocy, they had all the signs, and they didn't learn.

Would I have thought of a plan, then gone with it, like they did, without fully testing it?
Probably.
But the second those eyes got fried, I would have gone into full "Paranoid the DM is tying to kill me" mode.
Dhur.

They saw one part fail, and only focused on one aspect of how that one part failed, and didn't even try to think of how else things might fail at that point.

If you think you might have gone too far for that, you might as well note where all of the traps are on every game mat for them, because they can't be trusted to not walk off a cliff, much less avoid a pit trap.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 02:21:40 PM »
I'm with ariasderros on this one.  You gave the group more than I would expect (they're still "alive", the game hasn't ended) if I was in the player's situation.

I don't like playing in games where doing something dumb means that the DM is going to turn around and save my ass.  If there's no threat of failure then it just isn't fun for me. 

Hell, it sounds like they didn't even ask the Xill for advice on what to do to avoid the GIANT DRAGON THAT WILL EAT EVERYONE and that's just plain moronic.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 04:16:14 PM »
I was waiting for this thread, by the way.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 04:20:24 PM »
I was waiting for this thread, by the way.

Yeah, I can't say I was super surprised either.  That party doesn't (didn't?) seem to think quickly on its feet.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2013, 04:23:32 PM »
I was waiting for this thread, by the way.
Why, if I may ask?  Did you think the adventure was flawed or too difficult?  Or you just wanted to see how they did?

I messaged the player that had to quit due to job circumstances about a year ago.  Told him the party died, then described the pertinent parts of the situation.  I did not tell him what the party finally did that killed them, but I described everything that they tried prior to that, and the results.  I'm curious to see what his course of action would have been.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2013, 04:59:25 PM »
I was just remembering the whole "holy shit, we don't have any protections up, even though we are going to a plane we KNOW is actively hostile."
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Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2013, 05:00:33 PM »
I was just remembering the whole "holy shit, we don't have any protections up, even though we are going to a plane we KNOW is actively hostile."
Yeah...

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2013, 05:06:43 PM »
I'm still curious about the single ethereal plane vs multiple ethereal planes mix up that was what ultimately doomed the party.

That seems like something that a spellcaster with planar travel abilities or ranks in K(TP) would know as a matter of course. The sort of thing it's really important for the DM to point out to the players because the players wouldn't necessarily know or remember it (and shouldn't be expected to. Their characters had years of study to learn this stuff) even though their characters would. Similar to pointing out that walking a given path is going to result in a character falling off a cliff because the character could easily see this, even if the player is having trouble visualizing the scene.

If you didn't even offer the players a K(TP) roll to learn this detail, I'd say you screwed up there (not trying to condemn you as wrong or bad or anything. The players definitely screwed up too.)

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2013, 05:26:51 PM »
I'm still curious about the single ethereal plane vs multiple ethereal planes mix up that was what ultimately doomed the party.

That seems like something that a spellcaster with planar travel abilities or ranks in K(TP) would know as a matter of course. The sort of thing it's really important for the DM to point out to the players because the players wouldn't necessarily know or remember it (and shouldn't be expected to. Their characters had years of study to learn this stuff) even though their characters would. Similar to pointing out that walking a given path is going to result in a character falling off a cliff because the character could easily see this, even if the player is having trouble visualizing the scene.

If you didn't even offer the players a K(TP) roll to learn this detail, I'd say you screwed up there (not trying to condemn you as wrong or bad or anything. The players definitely screwed up too.)
Yeah, if there was any one thing I really screwed up, it was not reminding them of what they saw when they first arrived at Niflheim.  While still inside the tree, they could see the doorway, but they couldn't see through the doorway (ie- it's not just a passageway you are walking through; it is more of a portal with a hard barrier).  I didn't think to point this detail out again until after the session was over.

That said, they knew that, for example, the ethereal plane of Midgard was a different plane from the ethereal plane of Niflheim.  There was a whole discussion about them needing different tuning forks for Plane Shift, etc.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2013, 06:58:34 PM »

I advocate plan B: fight their way out and get their stuff back. :p

+1 ... and would the Níðhöggr be all that concerned
about a bunch of now dead(-ish) guys happening by?
I'd think they could just go around it again.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2013, 07:32:03 PM »
Wait a sec, didn't you say they were on Niffleheim? If you were going with what you wrote here, the plane doesn't even have an Astral plane connection, so Dimension Door shouldn't have been usable at all (as it is a teleportation spell). Also note that Dimension Door shunts you to a random open space within 100 feet (or 1000 feet if that fails), not the nearest open space (although given that Nidhoggr is ginormous and wrapped around the tree, that might not have saved the party anyways).

What was so special about the aforementioned "hard barrier" planar portal that made it stop teleportation? If they could walk through it, why couldn't they teleport through it? It seems kinda logical to me, especially with Dimension Door, which doesn't require LoE or LoS, and can select the destination abstractly.

Generally speaking, I'm not too fond of situations where a single mistake is enough to kill the party. Those tend to be the kinds of situations that the party shouldn't be in in the first place (usually due to making a series of mistakes beforehand). Situations where 3-5 mistakes become lethal are alright (assuming that what's a mistake is reasonably knowable, and is especially obvious after the fact so as to prompt greater caution). Which kind of situation this was, I'm not entirely certain. It seems like a 2 mistake lethality, though.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Well, I Killed the Whole Party...
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2013, 08:40:05 PM »
Wait a sec, didn't you say they were on Niffleheim? If you were going with what you wrote here, the plane doesn't even have an Astral plane connection, so Dimension Door shouldn't have been usable at all (as it is a teleportation spell).
In answer to this part, from the Manual of the Planes, page 50, sidebar entitled "Option: Without the Astral"
Quote

The following spells can still work, but you will have to determine exactly how they function without an Astral Plane: dimension door, teleport, teleportation circle, teleport without error, and vanish.
Thus, they still work, but they actually are slower to get you to your destination, because they are making use of (in this case) the ethereal plane (this is hand-waiving explanation, which is all the rules call for).  Basically you are in transit for 1 round for every X miles that you teleport (either 10 or 100; I never did decide, as it never became a pertinent issue).  The time loss is imperceptible to the teleporter, and the delay is always at least one round.

Again, this is just my rationale of how it works without the astral plane.  In the case of interaction with anticipate teleport, the PC's would teleport in round 1, be in transit until round 2, at which point anticipate teleport would trigger on their arrival, and delay them to round 3.  The only time this delaying factor would come into play is if someone were teleporting around a battlefield.  The fiends experience it too (none of them had a chance to teleport in the middle of a battle with the PC's while they were in Niflheim though; the PC's killed them too quickly).

Dimension Door's random shunting within 100 feet vs. closest open space didn't make much of a difference; the dragon's anticipate teleport had a radius of 185 feet, and he was basically curled around the trunk, near the door (but not directly on it).  The anticipate teleport sensor goes off, and he cast time stop, approached where they would appear, laid the force cage, and readied the Dimensional Lock.

Even had they appeared randomly underground (which is still an open space on the ethereal plane), he would have detected them via the transdimensional anticipate teleport, used time stop and ethereal jaunt to approach the area, and still would have laid down the forcecage (you only need line of effect, not line of sight, to lay down a spell effect).  Having been ethereal at the time, he would have detected the PC's arrival (via blindsense), which would still have triggered the readied Dimensional Lock.  The only thing that would have changed is that the PC's wouldn't have been able to see anything.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 08:45:42 PM by ksbsnowowl »