Well, I Killed the Whole Party...

[Elevevated Beat]

Devo.

Unfortunately, sometimes the players just don't see the links that the DM sees. I wouldn't kick yourself because of it, but definitely talk to the players about what they thought of the TPK. It sounds like they just messed it up this time.

Bum rush definitely would have been an awesome idea. I can just imagine the dragon sitting there, when suddenly a mass exodus appears.

[ksbsnowowl]

Unfortunately, sometimes the players just don't see the links that the DM sees. I wouldn't kick yourself because of it, but definitely talk to the players about what they thought of the TPK.

Yeah, after a few days and everyone is calmed down, I'll start the conversation of what they want to do going forward (call in True Resurrections? make new characters?)

I'll also give a general idea of how I was expecting the session to go, which was a continuation of what they had started with the Prying Eyes.

"Okay, the prying eyes 'failed.' But in failing, we learned that Níðhöggr can both see and attack ethereal things."

"I wonder what happens if we send the prying eyes in underground?  Maybe they'll run into an ethereal solid and destroy themselves, but some of them might make it back to me..."  *10 minutes later*  "...Oh look, a few of them returned, and our Blinking rogue didn't hear any breath weapons being exhaled.  Maybe he didn't detect them."

"I just leveled to 15th, and I have 100-foot telepathy and Mindsight.  Hey Druid, summon a Giant Owl or something and have it fly in the direction of the tree while ethereally underground.  Yeah, he might veer off-course a little bit, but I can stay in communication and mentally steer him a bit, and he can tell me if he encounters anything.  At worst I'll get a mental scream of pain just before he winks out."

"The Owl made it within 100-feet of Níðhöggr and he wasn't attacked?  Maybe we can move within 100 feet of the tree...   Hmm.... I don't feel the dragon's mind....  Oh, maybe because we're on the ethereal plane and he's not.   Druid, summon another probe to send out...  He says he's run into a solid object.  He can't see it, obviously, but it feels like a log."

Et cetera...

Like I said before, they did a whole lot of hypothesizing, and almost no testing.

(click to show/hide)

On summoning, as odd as it seems, the aforementioned sidebar on running a game without an astral plane, it specifies Summon Monster spells as not working, but doesn't mention any affect on the functioning of Summon Nature's Ally (or any Calling spells for that matter).

Presumably because most of them are animals? And come from the Material Plane anyway?  Using that logic, they could have summoned any of the fiends that are native to Niflheim via the wizard's summon monster 7, as they are on the same plane.

Either way, they had the capacity to summon something, if they had wanted to.

[Garryl]

Have the players ever performed, or have strong desire/need to do, such scouting before? If this is the first time it's been a real issue, then no wonder they didn't do it right. They wouldn't have had any practice.

[ksbsnowowl]

Oh they've needed to do it before, but always choose not to rarely choose to do so (I can think of two times in 10 levels).  One time their tendency not to scout got them in a pickle that frustrated the hell out of them and nearly got some of them killed, and two different times it did get one of their number killed.

I guess some people never learn.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

I've been thinking over this scenario a bit, and I cannot think of any way it could have played out that would not have prompted me to ask for a knowledge check to figure out whether the teleportation thing was feasible.

DM: so there's this monster of infinite CR guarding the exit. He REALLY REALLY does not want to let you past.

Players: Talk about options for a while, send in prying eyes, they get toasted, etc

Player: Hey, let's totally bypass this puzzle using a single casting of a 4th level spell

... At that point, how do you not go "Ok, there's got to be some reason it won't be that simple"? And my immediate impulse would be to ask the DM "can my character think of a reason this plan will not work" and suggest a knowledge check if the DM thinks it merits one.

Did your players not do anything like that?

[Keldar]

You were asking them to do the equivalent of poking an angry bear with a stick while blindfolded to play a game of read the DM's mind.  What outcome did you expect?  Especially after they went planehopping without long-johns.  TPK was the only outcome possible.

[ksbsnowowl]

Did your players not do anything like that?

They did nothing like that.  Had they done so, I would have set the DC fairly low, and would probably have rewarded it with some cautionary information (it likely would have reminded me of the aforementioned inability to see through the doorway from the inside of the tree).  I'm more likely to give useful information for a proactive use of a knowledge skill, seeking a specific answer, than I am for the generic "I can't think of anything; what will the DM tell me" kind of knowledge check.  If for no other reason than a pointed question will force me to evaluate a specific point, and come to a conclusion based on the question.

It's like the mundane version of probing the situation with spells.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

So they really did just figure a single 4th level spell was going to solve the encounter. After spending time discussing, planning, and scouting (and having their scouts destroyed) even.

That is way below the necessary paranoia level for a D&D party.

[ksbsnowowl]

What outcome did you expect?

Oh, I don't know, maybe one where they make use of being able to cast Charm Monster 22 times a day, and each casting lasts for 15 days.

An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but a charmed fighter, for example, might believe you if you assured him that the only chance to save your life is for him to hold back an onrushing red dragon for “just a few seconds.”

*Cast Glibness*  "Hello new friends, what happens if someone approaches Yggdrasil?  Oh, he attacks them and possibly imprisons them?  Well what happens if fifty creatures rushed him at once?  You've never tried it?  We could make a game of it, and you could all tell us what happens..."

"You know, if you all could distract him for just a few seconds, it would really help us get home."

"Hey, we had an idea to teleport into the middle of that tree.  Can you help us make sure its safe?  Our Xill friend made you ethereal, now can you just greater teleport into the stairway we described? I'm sure it's perfectly safe (*rolls Bluff check at +47*), but we don't want to waste one of our limited spells per day if it isn't going to work.  Thanks." ... "Oh, but wait for me to cast clairvoyance first; I want to witness your success."

[veekie]

Sounds like the big sticking point is information.

You might want to remind them more about their access to knowledge, particularly regarding whether a spell might work before they cast it. Personally I made some usage of automatic knowledge rolls(not comprehensively, since I can't remember when a knowledge skill might be present), but whenever they seem stuck, or unlikely to check the right knowledge, I'd roll for them and inform them of the particular conditions.

[nijineko]

i think you did a pretty good job. you can lead players to rp, but you can't make them act. (or sometimes think)

i think one thing i might have done differently as a dm, had i caught it, was when they basically decided to ignore all their plans and just charge in. i think i might have called for some wisdom and int checks and pointed out some of the obvious - the concept that the powerful dragon didn't really try that hard on the way in, the planar thing would definitely have occurred to the characters, even if not the pcs, so i would have felt fine giving them that information for free and without player prompting (after all, players are not the characters, i can't expect them to act and behave, know and recall, the same that the characters would).... having the characters "suddenly recall / intuit" the deal with the planar portal and the details of teleporting.

and when my parties are about to make a tpk decision, i usually specifically ask them to review what they have already learned / know / the characters would realize, recap what has happened, restate their proposed solution, and make sure everyone is in agreement.

putting it all in context like that in one utterance, especially the recap and restate (sometimes i only do those two), frequently brings the magnitude (and sometimes the stupidity) of what they are about to try into context.

maybe having the dragon grab the last prying eye, hold it up to his eye, say something like, "i'm warning you..." and then letting it go, may have driven home the, "i can see ethereal" bit a little more. could have had some creative fun, like having the last eye stagger its way back, it is covered in cracks, and the playback stutters. after all, great big dragon grabbing a tiny little scrying detector is bound to be a delicate task, not well suited to such overwhelming strength.



gaming groups are like guys. for some you need a brick, for others you need a really big brick. and for those special few, you need to @THWAP them with a +20 PILLOW of EPIC GET-A-CLUE.

[ksbsnowowl]

In our email conversations since Monday night, I pointed out that we've all learned from the experience, including me.  I've learned that my group has very little chance at being successful when placed up against a situation that doesn't have a fairly straightforward solution, so I probably won't do that again.  (If I do, the consequences for failure will be minimal, because I'll expect them to fail...)

Anyway, there is a small bright spot in all this.  Well, two really.  One, the hammer MacGuffin is now irretrievably in the possession of Níðhöggr, and it's probably for the best that the dark faerie princess who was blackmailing them does not in fact get her hands on said artifact, though it will likely lead to the death of the former party mate.  Secondly, I can use some of the potential other plots that I just never got around to at level-appropriate times.  I had planned to run them around 12th-13th level, and it just never happened, the PC's grew past it.  Well, I figure EL 12 encounters are a good place to start them against as 15th level characters that have no loot, and these encounters will mostly be against human NPC's.  NPC wealth is significantly higher than the average wealth award for an equal CR monster with standard treasure.  Also, the next main plot arch will dive into the cursed coin dragons becoming an increasing issue, and dragons tend to have double or triple standard treasure.  So, they will catch up to the correct WBL pretty fast.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Classic case of:  Leading The Horse To Water,
but can't make it admire the view ; let alone
cast divinations to find the needle in the horse haystack.

[Bauglir]

Yeah, it sounds to me like information was the big thing here, as well. Two things stick out, in particular: Transdimensional Dimensional Anchor, and the different Ethereal Planes. The latter is something that's already been mentioned, and the former is something that they players didn't really have any way of figuring out. As far as I can tell, there was no evidence that he was capable of layering control spells on the area, so they may have expected a straightforward bruiser creature. They also likely figured that attempts to probe his senses would arouse his curiosity (something they felt they couldn't afford to risk, given the degree to which it's been made clear that they cannot survive his attention). You know your group better than I do, but those seem like important factors when setting up a puzzle like this.

[Kasz]

Just out of curiousity really... what if the Beguiler had cast invisible spell (+0 metamagic) invisibility sphere?

Could have tested this by summon monster 1, celestial trapmonkey, then cast invisible spell, invisibility on him.

This goes by the logic of; When in doubt, confuse the DM.

So, invisible spells have no visible effect, so to the average commoner onlooker, the spell does nothing. Someone with true seeing however sees through the invisible spell, so they see the invisibility effect. As they see the invisibility effect they don't see the creature, because it's invisible.

Layer this with an normal invisibility sphere and you're invisible to both true seeing and normal vision. Which makes sense considering the investment of Invisible spell Invisibility and Invisibility.

This is my go-to tactic when I think the beastie might have true seeing.

I need to stop playing shadowcraft mages.

[zook1shoe]

Invisible invisibility.... Nice!

[Bauglir]

I'm not sure it works in layers like that. Wouldn't your true seeing see through the effect of invisible spell (making the spell effects invisible), and then see through the invisibility that the feat had made invisible?

[zook1shoe]

Insidious Magic could stop that possibility

[Kasz]

I'm not sure it works in layers like that. Wouldn't your true seeing see through the effect of invisible spell (making the spell effects invisible), and then see through the invisibility that the feat had made invisible?

Like I said, confuse the DM. It's not really covered by RAW, but there are those who believe that True Seeing can be countered with Invisible Spell. For example, an invisible spell displacement wouldn't give 50% concealment vs normal people, but True seeing would see the invisible spell, and thus be effected by the displacement, of course the true seeing could be dismissed.

That's one intepretation.

The other is that true seeing pierces absolutely everything, or as I like to put it: "F**K You Illusion".

The method above is good because in using the celestial trapmonkey you can test to see if your DM is into weaving and layering magic....or F**K You Illusion.

It's very DM Fiat though, and both interpretations are fair enough...

Insideous Magic gives you a 50% chance to avoid divinations... which on top of invisible invisibility is a hilarious concept.

[Amechra]

Insidious Magic actually requires them to roll higher than 11 + your caster level, which can certainly be higher than 50%.