Naturalist [3.5 Base Class]

[FireInTheSky]

Elemental Arbiter: If you're using this to counterspell, how long does the benefit last? If you gain the conjuration benefit, do you have to trigger it immediately or is it usable any time during the duration? If the latter, what sort of action is it, and can you split the distance over multiple jumps?

All of these are now addressed.

Graft: Not being able to benefit from party morale effects is kind of a drag.

Changed to be immune to negative morale benefits.

Topiary: Some of the descriptive text still has holomancer leftovers ("coherent light," "light sculpt").

I could have sworn I'd gotten all of those... 

You'll probably write descriptions for each of these individually later, but I'm going to go ahead and point out that Bear/Ostrich/Rhinocerous/Spider/Sea Cucumber and the rest still need clarification. Also, Natural Essences are noted as making Naturalize into a spell-like ability, but Topiaries are not, while Hedgerow claims they do. You might want to fix this - it's especially important for anyone with the Bear topiary, as SLAs do provoke attacks of opportunity where supernatural abilities don't. Same problem as Hideous Blow there.

Good points here. I'll write descriptions all the Natural Essences and Topiary. Topiary do turn naturalize into SLAs, but I'll put a note in Bear that it specifically doesn't provoke AoOs just from its SLA-ness.

Thanks for the critiques!

[FireInTheSky]

Added a couple more Natural Essences, and wrote out descriptions for all Natural Essences and Topiary.

Pending further critiques, I think this is ready to go.


EDIT: Added a couple of feats (Primordial Power and Steadfast Wilderness), and changed up Plant Defiance/Control to share the same pool of uses.

[FireInTheSky]

Added some more invocations (anything with superscript, as well as a less broken version of Venomfire), another Natural Essence (Ivy; think Kelpstrand), and some more feats (Companion's Bond, Companion's Touch, Wild Fang, {more to come})

Also did a reorg of posts 2 & 3, sticking the Feats and Nat/PrCs into post 3, turning post 2 into invocations only, and sorted the New Invocation Descriptions into separate spoilers for Natural Essences, Topiary, and Others. Should I just stick the NE and Topiary description spoilers into their main sections above, or keep all the descriptions together?

EDIT: Changed the wording of Greater/Perfect Elemental Arbiter to allow for the choice between suppressing and dispelling the lower-level effects.

EDIT2: Added a Plant Companion feat. How does the power level look?

[EjoThims]

Tagging to return.

[Maat Mons]

Naturalize is a supernatural ability, but you've given it an equivalent spell level.  It's only spell-like abilities that have those. 

Nature sense gives the effect of know direction continuously, but know direction is instantaneous, so that doesn't make sense.  Also, anyone with 5 ranks in survival always knows which way north is, so you don't need to put in a special ability for it. 

Your descriptions of natural essences and topiaries don't list the equivalent spell level. 

The castor natural essence nauseates a target even on a successful save.  A nauseated creature can only take move actions.  Using some of the topiaries, you can remove the need for an attack roll.  So, using this, it's possible to automatically deprive your enemies of useful actions every round for as long as you like with no chance of failure.  Okay, so spell resistance still applies, but against anything without it, you can just win. 

You should work more at keeping your invocations in line with existing ones.  For example, you have pass without trace as a least invocation.  Warlock has entropic warding as a least invocation, which gives the benefits of both pass without trace and entropic shield.  As another example, you have water breathing as a lesser invocation.  Both warlock and dragonfire adept have least invocations that give water breathing and a swim speed. 

[Chemus]

Yes, I'd previously disagreed, and still disagree with SirPercival's contention that least == lvs 0-1, lesser == 2-3, etc. Though perhaps I was too late; I posted after the changes to the spell-list were made.

[FireInTheSky]

Naturalize is a supernatural ability, but you've given it an equivalent spell level.  It's only spell-like abilities that have those. 

Good point. I changed around the wording a little bit, but left that part in, since it becomes an SLA if a topiary or natural essence is applied to it. When that happens, it could be that the equivalent spell level of the naturalize would be higher than the spell level of the topiary/nat essence applied to it. How does this look?

Naturalize (Su): The first ability a naturalist learns is his naturalize, causing rampant growths in and on the body of his target. Naturalize is a ray with a range of 60 feet. It is a ranged touch attack that affects a single target, allowing no saving throw, and deals 1d6 damage at first level, increasing by 1d6 every two levels after.

As a supernatural ability, naturalize is not subject to spell resistance. However, applying a Natural Essence or Topiary turns this into a spell-like abilitiy, in which case Naturalize is the equivalent of a spell whose level is equal to one-half the naturalist's class level rounded down, with a minimum of 1st and a maximum of 9th. Metamagic feats cannot improve a naturalist's naturalize (because it is a supernatural  ability and not a spell). However, the feat Ability Focus (naturalize) increases the DC for all saving throws (if any) associated with a naturalist's naturalize by 2. If a naturalist's base attack bonus is high enough to allow him iterative attacks, he may make a full attack action with naturalize; however, some topiary invocations or natural essences can only be used as standard actions. See the natural essence and topiary sections for details.

I also took out the part about only dealing half damage to objects, which was left over from the Holomancer c/p. It makes some sense for a coherent light blast, but less so if it's "nature happening." Think of it as erosion.

Nature sense gives the effect of know direction continuously, but know direction is instantaneous, so that doesn't make sense.  Also, anyone with 5 ranks in survival always knows which way north is, so you don't need to put in a special ability for it. 

Ok. Removed.


EDIT:

Your descriptions of natural essences and topiaries don't list the equivalent spell level. 

Fixed (in the descriptions). How do those numbers look?

The castor natural essence nauseates a target even on a successful save.  A nauseated creature can only take move actions.  Using some of the topiaries, you can remove the need for an attack roll.  So, using this, it's possible to automatically deprive your enemies of useful actions every round for as long as you like with no chance of failure.  Okay, so spell resistance still applies, but against anything without it, you can just win. 

Changed to sickened for 4 rounds.

You should work more at keeping your invocations in line with existing ones.  For example, you have pass without trace as a least invocation.  Warlock has entropic warding as a least invocation, which gives the benefits of both pass without trace and entropic shield.  As another example, you have water breathing as a lesser invocation.  Both warlock and dragonfire adept have least invocations that give water breathing and a swim speed.

To be honest, I haven't every really looked in detail at the Warlock invocations. I'll go do that and adjust as necessary.

Yes, I'd previously disagreed, and still disagree with SirPercival's contention that least == lvs 0-1, lesser == 2-3, etc. Though perhaps I was too late; I posted after the changes to the spell-list were made.

I certainly don't mind moving some things around. I just don't want to move everything down one sight unseen, because even without looking, I know there are 2nd level spells that you don't want 1st level characters tossing around.

EDIT2: Moved some invocations around. Haven't compared to Warlock yet, though.

[Chemus]

EDIT2: Moved some invocations around. Haven't compared to Warlock yet, though.

For your delectation: WotC's Invocation List Sorted by SpL Equiv, and DanDello's Realms Help (has descriptions)

[Tzi]

While it might not be much but like, it seems this is a bit geared heavily towards environments with say lots of plant life. How would a Naturist function in say a wasteland terrain or frozen terrain? No idea if this helps, I just think of strange terrain like wasteland environments alla Sandstorm book.

[EjoThims]

First and foremost... Much, much better than your first pass with the Sniper.  No insults here this time around.

But, I do have to second (or third/fourth/etc) the opinion that the eldritch blast incorporation seems a bit off.

This class has a TON of stuff going on.

Animal Companion, Invocations, Plant Rebuking, Aspects, and Elemental Arbiter. I don't think it necessarily needs a primary attack option.

That said, it does make sense to keep it, especially after working out shapes and essences. And the least supported item from that clustered list, the one that seems the most to be simply added to be a filler, is the animal companion. I think it could easily be removed, with some of the other small filler moving down to take it's place, without hurting the concept of the class; instead simply alleviating a bit of clutter and sidestepping all the double PC issues.

So that's what I recommend to make the blast as the primary attack option feel a bite more... natural.

[FireInTheSky]

First and foremost... Much, much better than your first pass with the Sniper.  No insults here this time around.

Yeaaah... I will freely admit that Sniper v.1 was pretty terrible.   But, the criticism eventually got it to a pretty good place (if I do say so myself). I've seen a LOT more homebrew in the past 20 months, and definitely gotten a better feel for it.

But, I do have to second (or third/fourth/etc) the opinion that the eldritch blast incorporation seems a bit off.

This class has a TON of stuff going on.

Animal Companion, Invocations, Plant Rebuking, Aspects, and Elemental Arbiter. I don't think it necessarily needs a primary attack option.

That said, it does make sense to keep it, especially after working out shapes and essences. And the least supported item from that clustered list, the one that seems the most to be simply added to be a filler, is the animal companion. I think it could easily be removed, with some of the other small filler moving down to take it's place, without hurting the concept of the class; instead simply alleviating a bit of clutter and sidestepping all the double PC issues.

So that's what I recommend to make the blast as the primary attack option feel a bite more... natural.

Aww. But I just wrote a bunch of feats for Animal Companion + Invocations!

I really would like to keep the Companion, especially if you think about this as the Invoking complement to the Spellcasting Druid and the Melee Ranger (picking whatever Ranger fix you want). I get what you're saying about feeling cluttered though. What if I made some of this stuff ACFs? And at the same time addressing Tzi's concern about different settings?

How about this:

• Aspects of Nature are the Primary CF
• Plant Rebuking gets turned into an ACF for Aspect of Nature
• Add Desert/Ice/Underwater ACFs replacing Aspect of Nature (and modifying woodland stride)

FWIW, I think I'm aiming for mid-high tier 3 here.



EDIT: Took Plant Defiance/Control out of the main class and moved Resist Nature's Lure to those levels. If it's still too cluttered, I think the next easiest thing to take out is Track and Swift Tracker.

EDIT2: Took out Track and Swift Tracker, and moved Wild Empathy to 2nd level (where Track was).

[EjoThims]

I really would like to keep the Companion, especially if you think about this as the Invoking complement to the Spellcasting Druid and the Melee Ranger (picking whatever Ranger fix you want). I get what you're saying about feeling cluttered though. What if I made some of this stuff ACFs? And at the same time addressing Tzi's concern about different settings?

I think you should build just a bit more support for the AC into the base class then, with perhaps some other options bundled as an ACF in its place. Something perhaps based off the companionless rangers with a few of the current filler features shifted over.

• Aspects of Nature are the Primary CF
• Plant Rebuking gets turned into an ACF for Aspect of Nature
• Add Desert/Ice/Underwater ACFs replacing Aspect of Nature (and modifying woodland stride)

This would help reduce some clutter while opening up options as well, yes. 

[linklord231]

I'd like to see an option to get rid of Naturalize in favor of more uses and choices for Aspect of Nature.

[FireInTheSky]

Geographic variants are now posted under Alternate Class Features.

I'd like to see an option to get rid of Naturalize in favor of more uses and choices for Aspect of Nature.

Ejo, how would you feel about me stealing adapting your Aspect of Nature from Verold as a naturalist ACF?


EDIT: Did a little work on the invocations. Any better?

[EjoThims]

Geographic variants are now posted under Alternate Class Features.

I like.

I'd like to see an option to get rid of Naturalize in favor of more uses and choices for Aspect of Nature.

Ejo, how would you feel about me stealing adapting your Aspect of Nature from Verold as a naturalist ACF?

I'd be honored. Though it really is just stolen adapted from the Geomancer.

[FireInTheSky]

Alrighty. Primal Form ACF is up.

EDIT: So is the Plant Lord ACF. How does everything look now?

EDIT2: Added something to "Naturalists and Prestige Classes" about advancing Primal Form.

[Chemus]

EDIT: Did a little work on the invocations. Any better?

At first glance, the selection looks good, for the most part. I recommend that you add Delay Poison to Detect Poison; it's not particularly useful otherwise, IMO. Perhaps fold Charm Animals and Calm Animals together where the caster chooses the effect; they seem to be alike and animals are not worth 2 invocations usually. Perhaps fold Detect Animals or Plants into Speak with Animals and Speak with Plants respectively? Aquatic Transformation seems to trump Water Walk; am I missing something there? Or is the 'Snow, oil, quicksand' clause the part that I'm missing?

The 4 Custom invocations look OK too. But Hidden From Nature needs a non-stacking caveat; as is stands you can cast it in succession to hide from each creature type listed. Perhaps: "If a target already under the effects of Hidden From Nature is affected by it again, the original invocation's duration ends as the new one begins." Just suggested wording; if you have a cleaner way to say it, or there's a conventional wording already used elsewhere, please do.

[FireInTheSky]

I recommend that you add Delay Poison to Detect Poison; it's not particularly useful otherwise, IMO. Perhaps fold Charm Animals and Calm Animals together where the caster chooses the effect; they seem to be alike and animals are not worth 2 invocations usually.

Good points - both suggestions implemented.

Perhaps fold Detect Animals or Plants into Speak with Animals and Speak with Plants respectively?

This one I'm not so sure on. The Detect doesn't look for generic animals or plants, but rather a specific type of animal or plant. And Speak with X is just generic. Also, I don't want to split Detect into two separate effects, in which case I'd have to give both the Speak with Animals and Speak with Plants invocations the ability to also act as Detect, which seems kinda messy. Opinions?

Aquatic Transformation seems to trump Water Walk; am I missing something there? Or is the 'Snow, oil, quicksand' clause the part that I'm missing?

You got it. Although, I could still get rid of Water Walk in favor of Aquatic Transformation, figuring that the Woodland Stride tree (or whatever Geographic Variant you took) would take care of the extra bit...

Hidden From Nature needs a non-stacking caveat; as is stands you can cast it in succession to hide from each creature type listed. Perhaps: "If a target already under the effects of Hidden From Nature is affected by it again, the original invocation's duration ends as the new one begins." Just suggested wording; if you have a cleaner way to say it, or there's a conventional wording already used elsewhere, please do.

Also a good point, and now added.


EDIT: Added into the Natural Essence and Topiary descriptions how they affect actions (i.e. requiring a standard, or only applying to the first iterative attack).

[EjoThims]

Primal Form ACF is up.

Looks good. I may actually backstealadapt a few of the changes.

I especially like the scaling options since they will be relied on more with the limited invocation list instead of 9th level spells.

I think it would be a good place to throw in some more AC support too though; instead of getting rid of Share Aspect, could switch it to giving your AC one or more of your Primal Forms.

And if you're still pondering new/reflavored invocations to use, I've got a few on my Warlock themed for the Fey Pact that I think would work great here as well.

[FireInTheSky]

Primal Form ACF is up.

Looks good. I may actually backstealadapt a few of the changes.

I especially like the scaling options since they will be relied on more with the limited invocation list instead of 9th level spells.

Feel free! Yeah, I hate small fixed skill bonuses - they're fine for low levels, but they seem so useless at higher levels, and I prefer not to give out class features that become useless later on.

I also had to move some things around to squish it into 4 tiers instead of 5, and to make sure there was at least one natural attack option at each tier.

I think it would be a good place to throw in some more AC support too though; instead of getting rid of Share Aspect, could switch it to giving your AC one or more of your Primal Forms.

Oh, that could work. How about this: at 5/10/15/20, in addition to learning one Natural Essence, one of the Primal Form abilities you've chosen is also permanently applied to your AC.

And if you're still pondering new/reflavored invocations to use, I've got a few on my Warlock themed for the Fey Pact that I think would work great here as well.

Sure, I'll take a look.