Author Topic: Youkai Engineer (base class)  (Read 15326 times)

Offline Anomander

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Youkai Engineer (base class)
« on: October 02, 2013, 12:00:17 AM »
YOUKAI ENGINEER


   
"They say it's many times more powerful than electricity. It'll revolutionize all our power production methods."
-Nitori Kawashiro, Senior Youkai Engineer

(click to show/hide)

Class Skills
The Youkai Engineer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Apraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + int)x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + int

Hit Dice: d8

LevelBABFortRefWill   Special   Maneuvers
Known
Maneuvers
Readied
Stances
Known
1st1002   Toolpak, Engineer, Integrated Technology, Pilot Maneuvers   301
2nd2003   Breakthrough   411
3rd3113   Bonus Feat   511
4th4114   Breakthrough   621
5th5114   Bonus Feat   722
6th6225   Breakthrough   822
7th7225   Integrated Technology   922
8th8226   Breakthrough   1032
9th9336   Bonus Feat   1133
10th10337   Breakthrough   1243
11th11337   Bonus Feat   1343
12th12448   Breakthrough   1443
13th13448   Integrated Technology   1544
14th14449   Breakthrough   1654
15th15559   Bonus Feat   1754
16th165510   Breakthrough   1864
17th175510   Bonus Feat   1965
18th186611   Breakthrough   2065
19th196611   Integrated Technology   2165
20th206612   Breakthrough, State of the Art   2275

Class Features
(click to show/hide)

Alternate Class Features
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Multiclassing between Youkai Engineer and Moon Vanguard
(click to show/hide)

New Feats
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“Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.”
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 12:46:55 AM by Anomander »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2013, 12:00:47 AM »
The Toolpak

Base stats
(click to show/hide)

Manual
(click to show/hide)

Engineering

Integrated engineering options
(click to show/hide)

Experimental engineering options
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« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 12:19:04 AM by Anomander »

Offline ketaro

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2013, 05:57:18 AM »
Um, wow, I'm entirely loving just how many paths of customization this class can take it's youkai suit. I think this is just amazingly well done :D I just have like, no criticisms I can think of here.

I really love the Breakthrough features the most, though.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2013, 10:42:03 AM »
I would've tried to salvage something from this, but then I noticed this:

Quote
Nanoarmor are a superior technology, which is why it can only be diminished if it is incorporated into a youkai suit's lesser technology.

Since youkai suits, compared to both nanoarmor and mechas are faster, tougher, have more energy, more reach/range in both melee/range, all of the big size advantages whitout any of the penalties, a bunch of free extras (including being able to use your own d10 HP pool to tank damage alongside your suit's improved HP, easily doubling your durability at minimum, and then 50% more efficient gravity wall because that one clearly needed to be boosted), I can only conclude this is some sort of elaborate joke, and I don't actually have to worry about detailing why it isn't apropriate for play.

EDIT: And no, it doesn't really matter if you have some energy regen problems at the earliest levels, because default mecha energy regen already sucks at low levels anyway, so you can just invest in stuff to increase your energy storage.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:02:10 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 10:47:06 AM »
I'm no good at going through things in detail, but... 6+Int skillpoints for an Int-heavy class? Really? :eh

Offline Anomander

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2013, 11:12:42 AM »
@ketaro: Thanks!

@osle: The quote is mostly to explain why multiclassing them would use the youkai suit for the base instead of the nanoarmor, because otherwise a single dip in Moon Vanguard would offset many of the disadvantages of the youkai armor.

I conclude from the rest that you have poorly evaluated how it works, missed a bunch of things or otherwise just skimmed through without trying to understand what you were reading. If you read it.

Raineh Daze Hm. Good point. I'll reduce to 4. I thought that making it more MAD than average would compensate. The Int investment might make up for it by itself.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 01:49:54 PM by Anomander »

Offline Bdrone

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2013, 03:21:56 PM »
...well, I like it. I must have because it made me re-read everything involving the Super Robot Wars project i could use with this. I'm pretty sure i blew the last 3 hours giggling about deciding on the base Chassis alone (more dakka, please!) between the two pilots and trying to figure out how to implement this or Moon Vanguard in my current campaign, after going to reread that.

I am assuredly not one to know balance, and i have no intention of rating it on that, but this got me to jump around the house and reintroduce myself to other homebrew and dig in deeper. had to do something right. Maybe it was the thought of in mid stride pulling a cord or pushing a button that triggers my Suit and then punching a bystander who was chuckling about my backpack in the face with a metal arm as I pass by. had to help!

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2013, 03:40:52 PM »
Very well, I have some time right now to burn on this:

-faster:Overclocking can be spammed all the time to make your speed higher than any nanoarmor could ever dream of.

-tougher:Advanced Options allows you to use and abuse cheap energy storage upgrades and transform them into sweet extra HP. Which then applies to yourself trough Expansion.. Sure, it costs 6 energy per turn, but after the earlier levels, mechas easily have energy in three digits orders. But wait! Order a youkai suit now, and you can also get Engineer's Patent to give your youkai suit +10 HP per inch of thickess (and it has a lot of inches), extra range rust immunity and anphibious, all for some extra spare change. Then there's also  EX Subtank that makes sure no energy shall go wasted, and I'm just gonna stop looking now.
 
-more energy: Energy Subtank, nuff said.

-more range: you're patenting your youkai suit for the extra HP. May as well patent its guns for extra range.

-more reach: Extending Arms!!! +50 feet reach for a feat? I'll take it any day every day! Oh, wait, it can also protect you whitout energy costs! So it's extra useful even if you want a ranged build! Even better than the first time I read it! But wait there's more! They can still be used to attack just fine while shielding you!

-all of the big size advantages whitout any of the penalties: Youkai suit gives you Powerful Build treating as your normal size. Powerful build only treats you as the other size when it would be advantageous to you. So you get the benefits of large/huge/whatever and still count as medium/small when counting as bigger would be disadvantageous to you.

-Being able to use your own d10 HP pool to tank damage alongside your suit's improved HP, easily doubling your durability at minimum: Stoping Expansion is a free action. Seems the same for extending arms. So first tank with your arms, stop when they're on their last HP, then start tanking with expansion, stop with it's on its last HP, then tank with your d10 face (engineers are tougher than rangers, true story). Other suit systems working just fine all the time, while a regular nanoarmor would've been destroyed twice over since then. Make sure to have grabbed some nanomachines so each part of your suit regens HP while the other's tanking damage.

-50% more efficient gravity wall: Energy Shield duh!

-All Systems Are Go: You remember that you didn't recover energy normally? What, it never really mattered because you just focused on energy storage increase? Well, now you do get regular energy regen anyway.

EDIT: And I believe I didn't even touch half of the options. It's already at least twice as good as any nanoarmor (or heck, any mecha), and I have barely skimmed it! More maneuvers to boot.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 03:50:51 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2013, 11:09:15 AM »
@Bdrone: Then the objective of the class is a success.   :)
Really hoping to make something that is fun to play before anything else.

@osle:
Quote
-faster:Overclocking can be spammed all the time to make your speed higher than any nanoarmor could ever dream of.
It doesn't stack with itself but it is indeed designed to be spammable, and usable on others and not just one's own machine.
While the speed increase still costs energy and spamming in battle goes against action economy, I'll agree that the duration/speed ratio is too high. Unless it is meant to be solely used on others, the duration has to be longer than 1 round otherwise just making two move actions would likely be better than increasing the speed, unless the it can be done as a swift action, then a 1 round surge of speed seems quite alright. The speed increase, while it doesn't need scale to with class levels specifically, has to have the potential to be high enough for your level to be worth spending a standard action on. A potential fix could be get rid of the scaling speed and just allow a vehicle to move past its speed if it pays energy equal to, say, 1*(the number of extra 5 ft moved moved past your speed) every time you move 5ft past your move speed. IE: Moving 45 ft when your speed is 30 would cost an extra 6 energy. Could be multiplied by 2 instead if its too low, costing 12 extra energy for the extra 15ft speed. It'd fit the concept of Overclocking better, I think. Or just cut through to a much easier way to explain it: 1 energy per extra foot traveled, rounded down to the nearest 5ft increment.
I like it. I'll have it work that way for the time being.

Quote
-tougher:Advanced Options allows you to use and abuse cheap energy storage upgrades and transform them into sweet extra HP. Which then applies to yourself trough Expansion.
A fraction of the energy can be turned into hp. Can't trade more than 50%. So transferring a fraction of 10en per upgrade into hp is like getting a Plating upgrade without the armor and DR. And then again, you gotta select that Breakthrough. If it is still too nice, the maximum percentage can be decreased further.

Quote
Sure, it costs 6 energy per turn, but after the earlier levels, mechas easily have energy in three digits orders.
Sounds like that would be a problem if they didn't have anything else to spend energy for each round. You also can't keep it on all day long because of the limited energy regeneration, which means spending actions to activate something that is a passive to nanos.
Quote
But wait! Order a youkai suit now, and you can also get Engineer's Patent to give your youkai suit +10 HP per inch of thickess (and it has a lot of inches)
Can be done to objects only. Hp/thickness and increase per size modifier is a rule for objects that can be sundered. No mecha fits that ruleset and I believe they count as constructs anyway.
Quote
extra range rust immunity and anphibious, all for some extra spare change.
Can't be used on mechas either. They ain't objects... though if for some reason they are actually objects with creature statistics that follow different rules, but are objects nonetheless, then I'll clarify that mechas aren't considered as objects for the purpose of that ability.

Quote
-more energy: Energy Subtank, nuff said.
Considering the rest of the youkai suit disadvantages, I'm actually wondering if I shouldn't have granted it starting first level.
If you believe energy recovery during inactivity in battle is too good, I think I can go with Nitori's energy system in HM and make energy recovery during an encounter impossible. Say, because the engine cannot withstand the stress.

Quote
-more reach: Extending Arms!!! +50 feet reach for a feat? I'll take it any day every day! Oh, wait, it can also protect you whitout energy costs! So it's extra useful even if you want a ranged build! Even better than the first time I read it! But wait there's more! They can still be used to attack just fine while shielding you!
I'm surprised you went that route considering all the things your Extra Option feat can offer. Including all the crazy stuff available to Anthro Animals, pseudocasting and a level's worth of martial advancement.
The reach scales with class levels instead of HD or some skill ranks. The potential reach at level 20 is nice indeed and would still be so if it was halved. Done.
It can protect you and break as a result, yes, but since it is no longer treating you as Expanded, it'll still be inferior to Expansion as it does not grant you the suit's DR and AC, nor does it grant you the mecha advantage limiting what kind of effects can target you and affect you.

Quote
-all of the big size advantages whitout any of the penalties: Youkai suit gives you Powerful Build treating as your normal size. Powerful build only treats you as the other size when it would be advantageous to you. So you get the benefits of large/huge/whatever and still count as medium/small when counting as bigger would be disadvantageous to you.
While you are not expanded, yes, in which case you are way more vulnerable than your average mecha pilot.
PB does not grant you the extra reach that comes with size, so getting that reach from the Extending Arms might cover that when you aren't expended. The halved reach fits that idea better. Otherwise, it could just grant reach based on the size of the armor instead of basing it on class levels. If PB still makes being out of Expansion better than it should be for some reason, it could instead just keep the increased base damage of the the larger suits if you invested in them (especially if you are the size of the larger suit yourself) and keep being considered your original size for everything else. Alternatively, it could just give you the size penalties.

Quote
-Being able to use your own d10 HP pool to tank damage alongside your suit's improved HP, easily doubling your durability at minimum.
While I find your mathematical conclusions exaggerated, I think the d10 is pretty decent considering you'll be eating all the damage on you own for a while. Having only one good save and being more limited by MAD to get a great constitution score doesn't make durability easier either. You are also likely more vulnerable to damage requiring reflex saves, which is most of the AoE damage, since it is a poor save and raising Dexterity is a bit harder since you need to be strong enough to carry the weight of your youkai armor and cannot just make Strength one of your dump stats.

Quote
Stoping Expansion is a free action. Seems the same for extending arms. So first tank with your arms, stop when they're on their last HP, then start tanking with expansion, stop with it's on its last HP, then tank with your d10 face (engineers are tougher than rangers, true story). Other suit systems working just fine all the time, while a regular nanoarmor would've been destroyed twice over since then. Make sure to have grabbed some nanomachines so each part of your suit regens HP while the other's tanking damage.
Oh crap. I strayed this one far from what I intended. Nanomachines can't regen the arms since they aren't the mecha but that aside it is indeed quite a problem as written. The arm's hp and the youkai armor's hp is meant to come from the same pool, so when your suit is at 50% hp and less you wouldn't be able to use one arm. Thanks for pointing it out.
You're right about the ranger thing. Mechanics can be real tough but not that much. Dropped to d8.

Quote
-50% more efficient gravity wall: Energy Shield duh!
The original idea was that G-Wall prototype was already sort of the same cost as G-Wall when coupled with Expansion, so reducing the cost of G-Wall would make it about the same as its usual energy price.
G-Wall being better than prototype, it had to be buffed slightly in some way. I thought at first its Arsenal storage space could be a little cheaper but it sort of didn't feel like it was homemade anymore. It could perhaps have an extra effect if you have both the G-Wall and the homemade prototype taken in the arsenal space instead.

Quote
-All Systems Are Go: You remember that you didn't recover energy normally? What, it never really mattered because you just focused on energy storage increase? Well, now you do get regular energy regen anyway.
It matters because if you focus on energy storage, you don't focus on other things seeing how you don't have to worry about it. And that is very late in the build. Just before a Moon Vanguard gets to use two uber tobhou stances at once among other things. That's hard deal to beat. An alternative could be to press even more action economy and require that the out-of-inactivity energy recovery still use the original recovery system but require a swift or move action once per round to regenerate. Like some kind of advanced dynamo system.

Quote
...and I have barely skimmed it!
I knew it. Seriously though, the feedback helps. Thanks.
----

Youkai suits by default:
Do not share its AC and DR
Must withdraw all its advantages to recover energy, after which an action must be spent to get them back
Do not absorb damage inflicted upon you, except crit dmg.
Does not block effects that cannot target pilots within a mecha.
Have a weight to carry (if your suit is large, you must carry 100 lb)
Gives you PowBuild if you invested in size increases while you aren't being protected by an Expansion
Gives a storage space if you can still carry more than your suit in a light load.
Requires personal time to repair when destroyed.

I could have the self-repairs tech downgraded to having the engineer do it herself instead of it being automatic. It would fit the theme.

Something I'll do is switch Maintenance and Expansion. Being able to repair things early fits more with mechanic concept.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2013, 01:09:42 PM »
Quote
-tougher:Advanced Options allows you to use and abuse cheap energy storage upgrades and transform them into sweet extra HP. Which then applies to yourself trough Expansion.
A fraction of the energy can be turned into hp. Can't trade more than 50%. So transferring a fraction of 10en per upgrade into hp is like getting a Plating upgrade without the armor and DR. And then again, you gotta select that Breakthrough. If it is still too nice, the maximum percentage can be decreased further.
That's not what's written right now.

Whenever the Youkai Engineer may select its Arsenal options, she may decrease her youkai suit's maximum hit points and raise its maximum energy by the same amount. She may not reduce her youkai suit below half its unmodified maximum hit points.
Alternatively, she may instead raise her youkai suit's maximum hit points and decrease its maximum energy, using the same guidelines.


Super robot 10. 100 HP and 100 energy by default. Took energy storage and plating ten times each for 150 HP and 200 energy. Which you then convert to 250 HP and 100 energy. Which is completely off the scales. Which yes, some people out there love classes that let them go out of the scales so easily, but not me.

Quote
Sure, it costs 6 energy per turn, but after the earlier levels, mechas easily have energy in three digits orders.
Sounds like that would be a problem if they didn't have anything else to spend energy for each round. You also can't keep it on all day long because of the limited energy regeneration, which means spending actions to activate something that is a passive to nanos.
Spend a swift action to have more HP than anything else on the game at that level for the entire battle! The horror! The pure, undiluted, unbearable horror! :rolleyes

Quote
But wait! Order a youkai suit now, and you can also get Engineer's Patent to give your youkai suit +10 HP per inch of thickess (and it has a lot of inches)
Can be done to objects only. Hp/thickness and increase per size modifier is a rule for objects that can be sundered. No mecha fits that ruleset and I believe they count as constructs anyway.
For the 9760th time, mechas don't have HD. Which means they aren't creatures. Which in turn means they're objects.

Quote
extra range rust immunity and anphibious, all for some extra spare change.
Can't be used on mechas either. They ain't objects... though if for some reason they are actually objects with creature statistics that follow different rules, but are objects nonetheless, then I'll clarify that mechas aren't considered as objects for the purpose of that ability.
Even then it's still an instant deal for anyone making any kind of fortification.

Quote
-more energy: Energy Subtank, nuff said.
Considering the rest of the youkai suit disadvantages, I'm actually wondering if I shouldn't have granted it starting first level.
If you believe energy recovery during inactivity in battle is too good, I think I can go with Nitori's energy system in HM and make energy recovery during an encounter impossible. Say, because the engine cannot withstand the stress.
That's missing the point. You simply end the ecounter before you run out of energy.

Quote
-more reach: Extending Arms!!! +50 feet reach for a feat? I'll take it any day every day! Oh, wait, it can also protect you whitout energy costs! So it's extra useful even if you want a ranged build! Even better than the first time I read it! But wait there's more! They can still be used to attack just fine while shielding you!
I'm surprised you went that route considering all the things your Extra Option feat can offer. Including all the crazy stuff available to Anthro Animals, pseudocasting and a level's worth of martial advancement.
Double HP and super reach for investing in your main stat is definetely better than a level worth of martial advancment with a bunch of behavior restrictions.

The reach scales with class levels instead of HD or some skill ranks. The potential reach at level 20 is nice indeed and would still be so if it was halved. Done.
It can protect you and break as a result, yes, but since it is no longer treating you as Expanded, it'll still be inferior to Expansion as it does not grant you the suit's DR and AC, nor does it grant you the mecha advantage limiting what kind of effects can target you and affect you.
So the suit's arms don't have the suit's AC or DR. I believe that's the the sort of thing that should be pointed out.

Quote
-all of the big size advantages whitout any of the penalties: Youkai suit gives you Powerful Build treating as your normal size. Powerful build only treats you as the other size when it would be advantageous to you. So you get the benefits of large/huge/whatever and still count as medium/small when counting as bigger would be disadvantageous to you.
While you are not expanded, yes, in which case you are way more vulnerable than your average mecha pilot.
PB does not grant you the extra reach that comes with size, so getting that reach from the Extending Arms might cover that when you aren't expended. The halved reach fits that idea better. Otherwise, it could just grant reach based on the size of the armor instead of basing it on class levels. If PB still makes being out of Expansion better than it should be for some reason, it could instead just keep the increased base damage of the the larger suits if you invested in them (especially if you are the size of the larger suit yourself) and keep being considered your original size for everything else. Alternatively, it could just give you the size penalties.
Just size penalties then.

Quote
-Being able to use your own d10 HP pool to tank damage alongside your suit's improved HP, easily doubling your durability at minimum.
While I find your mathematical conclusions exaggerated, I think the d10 is pretty decent considering you'll be eating all the damage on you own for a while. Having only one good save and being more limited by MAD to get a great constitution score doesn't make durability easier either. You are also likely more vulnerable to damage requiring reflex saves, which is most of the AoE damage, since it is a poor save and raising Dexterity is a bit harder since you need to be strong enough to carry the weight of your youkai armor and cannot just make Strength one of your dump stats.
There's a bunch of popular ways of geting Int to HP. And reflex saves.

Quote
-50% more efficient gravity wall: Energy Shield duh!
The original idea was that G-Wall prototype was already sort of the same cost as G-Wall when coupled with Expansion, so reducing the cost of G-Wall would make it about the same as its usual energy price.
G-Wall being better than prototype, it had to be buffed slightly in some way. I thought at first its Arsenal storage space could be a little cheaper but it sort of didn't feel like it was homemade anymore. It could perhaps have an extra effect if you have both the G-Wall and the homemade prototype taken in the arsenal space instead.
You just said it: homemade improvised stuff is suposed to be better than industry-grade from the suposed high tech civilizations. More on that later.

Quote
-All Systems Are Go: You remember that you didn't recover energy normally? What, it never really mattered because you just focused on energy storage increase? Well, now you do get regular energy regen anyway.
It matters because if you focus on energy storage, you don't focus on other things seeing how you don't have to worry about it. And that is very late in the build. Just before a Moon Vanguard gets to use two uber tobhou stances at once among other things. That's hard deal to beat.
Who needs a second stance when you're suddenly adding two ability score modifiers to your damage, AC, reflex save, most combat checks, and DCs?
 
Quote
...and I have barely skimmed it!
I knew it. Seriously though, the feedback helps. Thanks.
Before that let me tell you a little story.

I've started SRW d20 some years ago. And you'll notice the lack of an engineer class. Why? Because the pilots are already suposed to be the engineers of their own machines, or otherwise background NPCs. If you wanted to represent a customized machine, you picked up both real pilot and super pilot levels. Aka a tinkered-up gespent is simply an higher level gespent. It makes keeping the numbers in check much easier.

This whole class laughs at that basis and seeks to shred it to tiny bits. Suddenly there's robots with over 250 HP at 10th level.

Oh sure, you claim there's some custom penalties, but they really aren't limiting anything, in particular when the class itself keeps showering you with ways to ignore those suposed penalties (you'll have energy troubles! Here, take lots of free energy storage, and then you get actual energy regen so you end up more energy efficient than the mechas you were suposed have an inferior energy system when compared to).

We could try going back and forth with proper penalties, like, say, scaling energy costs for stronger youkai suits, instead of a fixed cost regardless of suit level.

But then I remembered that kappas in Gengyoko actually just half-heartedly mimic the outside world, so when Yukari and the rest of the crew needed actual rocket science, they prefered to call the freaking magician to do it! Even in Symposium_of_Post-mysticism, kappa are just selling phones, cameras, calculators and vacuum cleaners. They just look advanced because most other people in the land haven't even reached the steam engine. But a lunarian like Kaguya has centuries-old space tanks and vulkan cannons and whatnot.

So for me personally, there's two ways I can go about this class from now:
-Ignore it.
-Make the customization parts default options for mechas. So that youkais don't suddenly become the top scientists in existence, on top of already having the strongest spiritual power, and martial arts, and whatnot. I'll even let you do do it if you agree.  Because there's simply no easy way to allow a mecha class to get custom upgrades with actual significant penalties, but if people want customization so much, then let everybody have it equally. Then this class gets overhauled into, for example, something that can pick bits and pieces from the Arsenal options, some mechanical limbs, an energy tank, all carried into a backpack that takes the shoulder slots. Focus more on "I have a tool for this" instead of "My tools are better than everybody else's nyah!"  But at the end of the day don't do a pseudo-mecha that isn't a mecha except when it is with each part having different defences and separated HP pools that aren't actually separated. And also removing the HP-boosting patent part. Kappa stuff breaks easy the last time I checked, not the other way around.


Offline Anomander

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2013, 03:23:09 PM »
Quote
Which is completely off the scales.
Agreed. I'll just think of a different option. Maybe some kind of ability to take one of your ranged arsenal/in-built weapons and set it like a small turret that shoots when you spend actions. Or something like that.

Quote
For the 9760th time, mechas don't have HD. Which means they aren't creatures. Which in turn means they're objects.
Then make it clear in the mecha introduction page already. The mechas may not have HDs but they have levels, and objects usually do not have that.
Quote from: O
...you can use any maneuvers that super robot knows without you knowing them yourself, but you use the super robot's level instead of your own level for the purposes of those maneuvers.

Quote
Even then it's still an instant deal for anyone making any kind of fortification.
Sure. If they have loads of time to waste on them. Time the party certainly has to waste while that evil overlord is setting his plan into motion.

Quote
That's missing the point. You simply end the ecounter before you run out of energy.
It might need to be playtested. At the rate energy is spent across all levels I think reaching the end of the bucket can be done surprisingly quickly.
Otherwise you could just remove the auto-energy recovery per round of the mechas and all the Reactor options, since you seem to believe they don't need it. They could just invest in energy increases instead if they care about energy so much.

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So the suit's arms don't have the suit's AC or DR. I believe that's the the sort of thing that should be pointed out.
It was.

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Just size penalties then.
Alright, so basically if the suit is larger, you'd count as that size in every way except occupied space.

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There's a bunch of popular ways of geting Int to HP. And reflex saves.
I know insightful reflexes, which costs a feat. Faerie Mysteries Initiate is dragon mag stuff, not popular and very rarely accepted. And those two are far from being a 'bunch'. So... a bunch? I'm all ears.

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You just said it: homemade improvised stuff is suposed to be better than industry-grade from the suposed high tech civilizations.
Yes. That was the idea. You start with a weaker model and eventually climb up your tech and get something better than the model commonly used by everyone. By reverse-engineering those advanced models and adding your own mojo on top.
You rely on your machine more than on your pilot awesomeness.

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Who needs a second stance when you're suddenly adding two ability score modifiers to your damage, AC, reflex save, most combat checks, and DCs?
Yikes. If you think that it compares to having another super stance along with the rest of what it grants, then I really have to think of something else for that capstone.

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But then I remembered that kappas in Gengyoko actually just half-heartedly mimic the outside world, so when Yukari and the rest of the crew needed actual rocket science, they prefered to call the freaking magician to do it!
The context of that quote was on why Yukari wanted to get Lunarian technology for the youkai. This is the youkai engineer, not the Kappa Engineer. They go on about Yukari possibly wanting better tech than the tengu and the kappa's, and then go on saying that unlike the Lunarian their tech does not include spiritual power and are just similar to what one would expect to see in the outside world, so because of the nature of process required to reach the moon, pure science wouldn't be enough. Remilia also wouldn't use the kappa because she wants to rely on her own circle of power as much as possible. She did well not to rely on them though, since they suck when they must work together for big projects. They each are perfect when it comes to their obsessions but quickly lose interest with everything else.
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Even in Symposium_of_Post-mysticism, kappa are just selling phones, cameras, calculators and vacuum cleaners. They just look advanced because most other people in the land haven't even reached the steam engine. But a lunarian like Kaguya has centuries-old space tanks and vulkan cannons and whatnot.
Those are just examples of what they do and since they are somewhat like whats the outside world they aren't functioning quite like they do. Soul-capturing cameras, vacuums that send their content into unknown dimensions, telephones that pick up spirit radio signals... it gives an idea of the gap between the outside-world look of the things they make and what they can actually do.
And then there is a whole game that shows how she shoots a bunch of missiles, some sort of antigravity/electromagnetic gyrocopter that supports her and floats in mid-air, force shields and all kinds of backpack wonders. As to other youkai engineers, there is Rika with her uber flying tank of doom, whose technology level is hard to figure out.

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Make the customization parts default options for mechas. So that youkais don't suddenly become the top scientists in existence, on top of already having the strongest spiritual power, and martial arts, and whatnot. I'll even let you do do it if you agree.  Because there's simply no easy way to allow a mecha class to get custom upgrades with actual significant penalties, but if people want customization so much, then let everybody have it equally. Then this class gets overhauled into, for example, something that can pick bits and pieces from the Arsenal options, some mechanical limbs, an energy tank, all carried into a backpack that takes the shoulder slots.
I'm not sure how a customization system could be integrated in there. It could be done but with greater difficulty.
I think I'm on the right track the way things are going, especially if by the end the suit cannot get everything a nanoarmor has by default and instead goes in a different direction. Perhaps by giving them their own progression. No access to real robots bases but get a mix of arsenal options and upgrades.
I could remove the access to pilot feats and spirits, removing all traces of the engineer getting better as a pilot and putting all her faith in her machine. I think becoming the top scientists in existence (as far as SWR goes) should be possible since they are dedicated engineers instead of some expert-classed npcs. Maybe by taking a feats such as "Degree in Lunarian Technology" (maybe Bach's, Master's and Doctoral to get more mecha-centric traits with a small list of stuff to copy for each), which would represent how the engineer learned from Lunarians, reverse-engineered Lunarian tech or perhaps even is a Lunarian. It'd make breaching having a machine more like a nanoarmor more expensive for the build while a Moon Vanguard could spend those feats getting new things or otherwise becoming even better at with it does.
It could be interesting while preserving your concern for the integrity of the entire SWR system.
I'll try to get you a draft and adjust the class the way I said I would when I've the time. I'm a bit too caught up between stuff at the moment.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 03:33:14 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2013, 11:59:02 AM »
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For the 9760th time, mechas don't have HD. Which means they aren't creatures. Which in turn means they're objects.
Then make it clear in the mecha introduction page already. The mechas may not have HDs but they have levels, and objects usually do not have that.

Quote from: O
...you can use any maneuvers that super robot knows without you knowing them yourself, but you use the super robot's level instead of your own level for the purposes of those maneuvers.
Items have levels  since Magic Item Compendium. And +X weapons/armors.

If it quacks like a duck but doesn't move like a duck unless somebody else gets inside it, perhaps it's Mazinger with a new duck-voice-based attack, but it certainly isn't a duck.

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Even then it's still an instant deal for anyone making any kind of fortification.
Sure. If they have loads of time to waste on them. Time the party certainly has to waste while that evil overlord is setting his plan into motion.
Just hire an NPC to do it. You can pay double the rate and it's still the best deal out there for construction purposes. Quite suprising for a character whose gear is renowed for breaking down during battle.

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That's missing the point. You simply end the ecounter before you run out of energy.
It might need to be playtested. At the rate energy is spent across all levels I think reaching the end of the bucket can be done surprisingly quickly.
Otherwise you could just remove the auto-energy recovery per round of the mechas and all the Reactor options, since you seem to believe they don't need it. They could just invest in energy increases instead if they care about energy so much.
Now that sounds like a better plan.

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So the suit's arms don't have the suit's AC or DR. I believe that's the the sort of thing that should be pointed out.
It was.
My bad then.

Quote
There's a bunch of popular ways of geting Int to HP. And reflex saves.
I know insightful reflexes, which costs a feat. Faerie Mysteries Initiate is dragon mag stuff, not popular and very rarely accepted. And those two are far from being a 'bunch'. So... a bunch? I'm all ears.
Warblade gets Int to reflex saves pretty fast. That's three ways, aka more than a couple. :P

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You just said it: homemade improvised stuff is suposed to be better than industry-grade from the suposed high tech civilizations.
Yes. That was the idea. You start with a weaker model and eventually climb up your tech and get something better than the model commonly used by everyone. By reverse-engineering those advanced models and adding your own mojo on top.
You rely on your machine more than on your pilot awesomeness.
I was being sarcastic on that quote.

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Who needs a second stance when you're suddenly adding two ability score modifiers to your damage, AC, reflex save, most combat checks, and DCs?
Yikes. If you think that it compares to having another super stance along with the rest of what it grants, then I really have to think of something else for that capstone.
Well, if nothing else is lazy for a capstone. There's several other ways to boost raw numbers like that.

Quote
But then I remembered that kappas in Gengyoko actually just half-heartedly mimic the outside world, so when Yukari and the rest of the crew needed actual rocket science, they prefered to call the freaking magician to do it!
The context of that quote was on why Yukari wanted to get Lunarian technology for the youkai. This is the youkai engineer, not the Kappa Engineer. They go on about Yukari possibly wanting better tech than the tengu and the kappa's, and then go on saying that unlike the Lunarian their tech does not include spiritual power and are just similar to what one would expect to see in the outside world, so because of the nature of process required to reach the moon, pure science wouldn't be enough. Remilia also wouldn't use the kappa because she wants to rely on her own circle of power as much as possible. She did well not to rely on them though, since they suck when they must work together for big projects. They each are perfect when it comes to their obsessions but quickly lose interest with everything else.
"Pure science" you say?

Quote
Even in Symposium_of_Post-mysticism, kappa are just selling phones, cameras, calculators and vacuum cleaners. They just look advanced because most other people in the land haven't even reached the steam engine. But a lunarian like Kaguya has centuries-old space tanks and vulkan cannons and whatnot.
Those are just examples of what they do and since they are somewhat like whats the outside world they aren't functioning quite like they do. Soul-capturing cameras, vacuums that send their content into unknown dimensions, telephones that pick up spirit radio signals... it gives an idea of the gap between the outside-world look of the things they make and what they can actually do.
Soo, you're claiming that hearing spirits and capturing souls are "pure science" now, but reading from books and applying what's there is mystic mumbo-jumbo? :psyduck

And then there is a whole game that shows how she shoots a bunch of missiles, some sort of antigravity/electromagnetic gyrocopter that supports her and floats in mid-air, force shields and all kinds of backpack wonders. As to other youkai engineers, there is Rika with her uber flying tank of doom, whose technology level is hard to figure out.
See, you're making the extreme assumption that's pure technology.

But Rika's first tank has a giant ying-yang orb on it, and her seconds has organic wings, tentacles, a halo, and a giant eye on top of that. With blood capillars. And they're both vulnerable to exorcism attacks, unless I missed the part where Reimu pulls a rocket launcher to defeat Rika in both stages. Yeah, that indeed sounds like purest grade science. :p

Nitori herself has the power to manipulate water. And she's already shown she is adept on using them during battle. My bet is that she's using that power to fuel basically most of her backpack "wonders", in good old kappa cheating way.


Quote
Make the customization parts default options for mechas. So that youkais don't suddenly become the top scientists in existence, on top of already having the strongest spiritual power, and martial arts, and whatnot. I'll even let you do do it if you agree.  Because there's simply no easy way to allow a mecha class to get custom upgrades with actual significant penalties, but if people want customization so much, then let everybody have it equally. Then this class gets overhauled into, for example, something that can pick bits and pieces from the Arsenal options, some mechanical limbs, an energy tank, all carried into a backpack that takes the shoulder slots.
I'm not sure how a customization system could be integrated in there. It could be done but with greater difficulty.
1-Copy-paste upgrade options here.
2-Say that a pilot can perform one customization per X pilot levels/make a feat for it.
3-?
4-Profit!

I think I'm on the right track the way things are going, especially if by the end the suit cannot get everything a nanoarmor has by default and instead goes in a different direction. Perhaps by giving them their own progression. No access to real robots bases but get a mix of arsenal options and upgrades.
I could remove the access to pilot feats and spirits, removing all traces of the engineer getting better as a pilot and putting all her faith in her machine. I think becoming the top scientists in existence (as far as SWR goes) should be possible since they are dedicated engineers instead of some expert-classed npcs. Maybe by taking a feats such as "Degree in Lunarian Technology" (maybe Bach's, Master's and Doctoral to get more mecha-centric traits with a small list of stuff to copy for each), which would represent how the engineer learned from Lunarians, reverse-engineered Lunarian tech or perhaps even is a Lunarian. It'd make breaching having a machine more like a nanoarmor more expensive for the build while a Moon Vanguard could spend those feats getting new things or otherwise becoming even better at with it does.
Because we all know how lunarians are just so eager to share their secrets with everyone right? :eh

But then, you made Nitori able to somehow study nano-scale stuff when she herself has nothing more advanced than basic photographic machines, so I guess you could go all the way and just make her able to directly spy anywhere she pleases. Lunarians only survive by sticking with sheer numerical superiority against the limitless kappa power. We're lucky indeed they're so disorganized that not even master manipulator Yukari risks working with a single kappa, otherwise they've would've already conquered all of existence with their super-pure techonolgy! [/sarcasm]

It could be interesting while preserving your concern for the integrity of the entire SWR system.
I'll try to get you a draft and adjust the class the way I said I would when I've the time. I'm a bit too caught up between stuff at the moment.
By all means take all the time you want.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 12:06:52 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2013, 12:03:44 PM »
Could you  two possibly tone down the snippyness for just one thread? It might help fixing things faster. :/

Quote
Nitori herself has the power to manipulate water. And she's already shown she is adept on using them during battle. My bet is that she's using that power to fuel basically most of her backpack "wonders", in good old kappa cheating way.

Hydroelectric power is a thing.

Mecha basically seem to work on infinite reactors in this, anyway. :lmao

Offline Anomander

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2013, 01:47:12 PM »
Quote
Items have levels  since Magic Item Compendium. And +X weapons/armors.

If it quacks like a duck but doesn't move like a duck unless somebody else gets inside it, perhaps it's Mazinger with a new duck-voice-based attack, but it certainly isn't a duck.
They do?

When you put sentience upgrades on the mecha, it can do stuff on its own.

Quote
Just hire an NPC to do it. You can pay double the rate and it's still the best deal out there for construction purposes. Quite suprising for a character whose gear is renowed for breaking down during battle.
Only if the DM allows the existence of NPCs with PC levels that includes this one, and makes them available for hiring purposes. They aren't otherwise available even to PCs with leadership until epic. If they were to hire NPCs to do any kind of crafting they might as well get some experts with Pure Crafting or even plain regular crafting to make stuff to sell and make you rich instead.
Not sure where that reputation comes from. Again, this is not just kappa stuff. Youkai Engineer. Not Kappa Engineer.

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It might need to be playtested. At the rate energy is spent across all levels I think reaching the end of the bucket can be done surprisingly quickly.
Otherwise you could just remove the auto-energy recovery per round of the mechas and all the Reactor options, since you seem to believe they don't need it. They could just invest in energy increases instead if they care about energy so much.
Now that sounds like a better plan.
Feel free to do it right away then.

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Warblade gets Int to reflex saves pretty fast. That's three ways, aka more than a couple. :P
It requires too many levels in something else than Youkai Engineer. Unpractical. Anything that actually works? And where is the bunch of Int to HP options you mentioned?

Quote
"Pure science" you say?
Not me. Them, and they don't really say it plainly. They seem to believe that kappa technology is limited by the outside world. That they have nothing spiritual to them. I used the name Youkai Engineer to pretty much imply 'supernatural engineer'.

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Soo, you're claiming that hearing spirits and capturing souls are "pure science" now, but reading from books and applying what's there is mystic mumbo-jumbo?
No. Because you didn't get the context of what I said, you're now on a roll to misunderstand everything else.

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See, you're making the extreme assumption that's pure technology.
Ironic. You're making the assumption that this is what I'm doing.

Quote
But Rika's first tank has a giant ying-yang orb on it, and her seconds has organic wings, tentacles, a halo, and a giant eye on top of that. With blood capillars. And they're both vulnerable to exorcism attacks, unless I missed the part where Reimu pulls a rocket launcher to defeat Rika in both stages. Yeah, that indeed sounds like purest grade science. :p
I've no objection to what you're insinuating. I agree.

Quote
Nitori herself has the power to manipulate water. And she's already shown she is adept on using them during battle. My bet is that she's using that power to fuel basically most of her backpack "wonders", in good old kappa cheating way.
Your guess is as good as mine.

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Because we all know how lunarians are just so eager to share their secrets with everyone right? :eh
Apparently. Everyone can get Moon Vanguard levels.
And Lunarian can be Youkai Engineers, so they don't even have to share. Moon Vanguard nanosuit wrecks can be studied or one of those agents can have a YE ally that helps with maintenance and mecha buffs and so on. Reasons to make it possible are not lacking.

Quote
But then, you made Nitori able to somehow study nano-scale stuff when she herself has nothing more advanced than basic photographic machines, so I guess you could go all the way and just make her able to directly spy anywhere she pleases. Lunarians only survive by sticking with sheer numerical superiority against the limitless kappa power. We're lucky indeed they're so disorganized that not even master manipulator Yukari risks working with a single kappa, otherwise they've would've already conquered all of existence with their super-pure techonolgy! [/sarcasm]
I think there is a point you're trying to make somewhere in there but I just don't see anything relevant.
When you can bond with heaps of Lunatic Rubbish to get a nanoarmor, anything goes.
If you really want to make it dependent on Lunarian failures for some reason we can set the setting into 'the future', where Yukari raised a youkai army and forged an alliance with Remilia and all the other major Gensokyo factions to overpower the lunarians and leaving the Moon in bloody ruins to salvage their technology. Non-canonical could-be futures are your kinda thing, iirc.

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By all means take all the time you want.
Aye, that's the plan. Had the time to make a small draft while I traveled. Just gotta test a few things and improve the structure.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 02:45:18 PM by Anomander »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2013, 01:41:37 AM »
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Offline Bdrone

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2013, 02:55:39 AM »
I'm with Raineh. This isn't even my work and im a bit flustered under the collar with some of the tone in here.

..looking at the Draft here, I... ach, I'm cautiously optimistic. I'm hoping there's a lot that be done with the point value system to replace spirits- not that it bugs me to lose them- i was to caught up in the robot mods and chassis anyway. I already had a prelim drawn up to use Real pilot base mechs with maybe some Super robot in the back- but that's gone off the wayside. fair enough, but I guess I should then ask, can we tinker a built-in ranged weapons onto it, since i could never figure out on my own if that could be done with the Super Robot? pleeease tell me I could add missile pods to the YS.

I know im not much help, but for random suggestions maybe you could have some sort of an assistant crafting system for the YE through their suit for a level of point expenditure? just kinda makes sense to me that an engineer of this would try to automate processes. Thing about that is, I don't know where to begin to structure such a thing based on your vision- or where to slice it for the sake of...balance. I still bring it up because while in the old draft you could modify devices, you couldn't "make" anything short of a YS or readjust it really. Though its just as likely i missed something.

I'm personally happy with the potential for a potent mech-like get up with sufficient amounts of Dakka. longer the range, the better.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2013, 09:27:26 AM »
Quote
can we tinker a built-in ranged weapons onto it
If it answers your question, the custom weapon point use should allow you to build just about any weapon used by the real robot.
The points invested would determined the base damage die for medium sized YS, whether it is melee/ranged, its special weapon properties, range increments, whether it requires ammo (and how much you got), how much energy per use and so on.

So if you could build yourself, say some kind of 1-shot sniper railgun with a very long range increment, a decent base damage die, with the heavy and area properties that drains some of your energy after the shot (or call it an advanced missile launcher that shoots hundreds of missiles in a line). If you have enough points to invest into it and it all fits within the point cap you can invest into the custom weapon option.

Quote
I know im not much help, but for random suggestions maybe you could have some sort of an assistant crafting system for the YE through their suit for a level of point expenditure? just kinda makes sense to me that an engineer of this would try to automate processes. Thing about that is, I don't know where to begin to structure such a thing based on your vision- or where to slice it for the sake of...balance. I still bring it up because while in the old draft you could modify devices, you couldn't "make" anything short of a YS or readjust it really. Though its just as likely i missed something.
We should still be able to modify devices and do similar things once everything is fully fleshed out.

I'm not entirely sure of what you mean by an assistant crafting system.While I'd rather stay very far away from making the YE better at making magic items and the likes (I'll let dem wizies and artifies handle those), allowing them to craft things on the go is part of the overall objective. I'd also rather stay away from things that already exist; like using shapesand (Sandstorm p.102) to make just about any object you can think of. No point making a class feature that replicates something you can just buy for 100gp unless it is similar but clearly better.

Offline Bdrone

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2013, 10:38:54 AM »
With notes on the Built in range weapons..... YES. <YES, PLEASE>

I... wasn't aware of Shapesand at all, and you have a point- letting artificers and wizards focus on crafting is probably for the best, especially since to me, crafting is such a nebulous thing there's no need to further complicate it with YE specific capabilities. To be honest i don't really have much of a basis besides the idea that you as may be constantly cobbling things together for the sake of testing. Eventually I would figure a YE might modify her suit to help speed such things along, kind of like the self repairing suit in the original draft.

*shrugs* I wanted to try to throw something in there, but since I'm so fresh to a lot of the concepts here, that's what came off my head first- something like lunatic craft for the Chaos template series maybe (substituting a crazed mind for a somewhat less so with mechanical help), but developed by a YE with perhaps some other limitations. Considering the other possibilities, it does sound unnecessary.

huh... there's something I could ask, as clarification. So whats the odds you could make your own S.I.R. unit Invader Zim style, or alternate modes of mobility through the suit? spider leg backpack!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 10:40:37 AM by Bdrone »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2013, 11:03:14 AM »
Quote
huh... there's something I could ask, as clarification. So whats the odds you could make your own S.I.R. unit Invader Zim style, or alternate modes of mobility through the suit? spider leg backpack!
I don't know the references but the possibility of getting alternate modes of movement was part of what I had in mind.
I thought it'd take the form of getting an ability (that must be selected) to momentarily upgrade the suit to get new movement speeds.
The base speed of those movement modes would be pretty low but make it possible to get something on the go (like a big drill sticking out of the suit to burrow, propellers to swim, spider legs to climb, gyrocopter to fly/increase flight speed maneuverability, and biped legs to run (not everyone has a land speed). It could cost energy or engineering points (or both) per turn depending on how useful the movement type is.
The engineering point cost would probably fit within its regeneration rate to allow constant movement provided that you're not investing points in other stuff.

Offline Bdrone

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Re: Youkai Engineer (base class)
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2013, 03:42:45 AM »
Both of the things that I brought up are actually references to Invader Zim. Zim had for all intents a backpack that doubled as some kind of sustenance for his race, though I can't remember what exactly. One of the coolest things about the backpack to me was when he couldn't or didn't want to walk or run, it deployed spider-like legs to walk on, aiding in climbing as well as just being faster for him, in addition to a host of other gizmos.

A S.I.R (Standard-Issue Information Retrieval) Unit was for all intents a Recon assistant robot, also from the same show. interactions with Sentience from Super Robot was what brought this up. I thought I could do something for giggles more so than practical reasons, like Sentience-treeing for a mind, Giving the suit it's own mobility and have a wandering buddy in my downtime.

While ideas on such a thing like this don't come to me easy, im excited to see what this is going to look like overall.

EDIT: Ever since the changes ive been going nuts waiting for a time to implement this class in my campaigns. i SO want to run it well over 30 days ago.  I do have to point out I thought you could do so much more in a turn until i realized that the one round limitation of most abilities here combined with Progress point recovery means  you really have to budget how your going to spend your points about. I very much like that.  This class has such a shift able device, I honestly am fine with how this draft turned out.  still being fresh to the Rulesets presented,  i can only marvel at the glorious customization... AND ALL DAT DAKKA! WOO!!!

I feel like a lot of my questions are dumb, and probably so because I never used SWR d20.

I love how System Shock is still here, but it makes me question just what your suit can do with its sentience program if you are actively piloting it. rereading that it still obeys orders, but i assume that it can't fire weapons independently of you unless you are outside of it, leaving it to it's own devices. that what i figured until you pointed out in system shock that the suit can use its turns controlling funnels....
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 06:43:39 AM by Bdrone »