Author Topic: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion  (Read 10076 times)

Offline Hades

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Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2014, 05:54:59 AM »
Ah, thanks, then that's indeed quite a nice pick for dragon 1st level spells!

My pleasure ;)

I believe yes. But to pull that off, you'll need a dragon at epic levels, so probably the party is simply resistant/immune to all elements by then.

You're right... It's a sound strategy but it comes "too late".

I dunno if you already added Arcane Spellsurge in the list of "nice spells for a dragon". It may help with a dragon action economy, and since true dragons counts as "dragonblood subtype" they can even cast it as a swift action.

Offline Clanjos

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Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2014, 11:02:19 AM »
Couple of general points from experience I have as a guest DM.

The dragon should never let the players pick the field- unless its horde isn't affected by its breath weapon.

Remember a dragon's mobility- very few parties are prepared for a dragon that remembers that it can drop heavy things on them, or one that turns a fight into whack-a-mole, or one that just keeps attacking from the air.

As for a sample build...


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Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2014, 01:26:24 PM »
Realmshelp has virtually every single one of them posted online. All you have to do is come up with some theme appropriate Spells for the Great Wyrm and copypasta the list removing the ones the younger age groups don't have access to.
Be very careful about taking those stat blocks at their word.  I was using it to make a (Shadow?) dragon, and the listed number of skill points was VERY wrong.  Like off by 90% wrong.

Offline Hades

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Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2014, 06:10:11 AM »
Couple of general points from experience I have as a guest DM.

The dragon should never let the players pick the field- unless its horde isn't affected by its breath weapon.

Remember a dragon's mobility- very few parties are prepared for a dragon that remembers that it can drop heavy things on them, or one that turns a fight into whack-a-mole, or one that just keeps attacking from the air.

I agree that since dragons are smart, the DM has to use them in a smart way: "Tucker's dragons".

Offline vaz

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Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2014, 12:56:23 PM »
Half Dragon kobolds would be horrendous...

Would you not consider using more "Elite Array" stat designations? As it is, they are only 10/10/10/11/11/11.

Would you be including class levels on some of these dragons or keeping them "as is" as just pure monsters with HD's gained only by advancement?

Something I noticed; at 39HD (+2HD), a Steel Dragon (I know you're a while off yet) is still only Large Size, but with 21st level spell casting, it has access to Epic Spellcasting while not being advanced yet, something not even a Gold Dragon can achieve. As a Loredrake, it gains Spellcraft as a class skill (so 42 rank cap). A Great Wyrm Blue Dragon would not be able to do that until it reaches its second stage of Epic advancement.

If you are going advanced, then the steel Dragon is considered "ordinary", it starts off small, and only becomes huge; not only do they get Improved Spell Capacity but they jump from Huge to Colossal, completely skipping Huge at 40HD.

Would you like some help with some of the other dragons? I could do with a small *job* for something to do, and have access to most books. I wouldn't want to overlap with you, so would choose ones which you aren't likely to cover for a while; I'd especially like to have a look at the Dragon Compendium ones; Purple Dragons always hold a particular interest for me since [hovis advert] when I were a lad, and would definately be interested in doing that.

Are there any guidelines are stuff you don't want to include, like undue Shenanigans, item abuse etc?

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2014, 08:53:56 PM »
As my family is processing all the food they ate and alchool they drinked today, I take the chance to update this a bit.

Brass dragon samples added, as well as expanded first post.

I dunno if you already added Arcane Spellsurge in the list of "nice spells for a dragon". It may help with a dragon action economy, and since true dragons counts as "dragonblood subtype" they can even cast it as a swift action.
I still have to finish organizing on that spell list I promised, but yes, Arcane Spellsurge is another pretty nice one.

Couple of general points from experience I have as a guest DM.

The dragon should never let the players pick the field- unless its horde isn't affected by its breath weapon.

Remember a dragon's mobility- very few parties are prepared for a dragon that remembers that it can drop heavy things on them, or one that turns a fight into whack-a-mole, or one that just keeps attacking from the air.

As for a sample build...


(click to show/hide)
Those are good tips, and added your dragon to a new post, "Classed Dragons" thanks!

Realmshelp has virtually every single one of them posted online. All you have to do is come up with some theme appropriate Spells for the Great Wyrm and copypasta the list removing the ones the younger age groups don't have access to.
Be very careful about taking those stat blocks at their word.  I was using it to make a (Shadow?) dragon, and the listed number of skill points was VERY wrong.  Like off by 90% wrong.
Yeah, already noticed that. Several breath weapons are wrong as well. I believe they're 3.0 samples. Or just sloppy editing.

Half Dragon kobolds would be horrendous...

Would you not consider using more "Elite Array" stat designations? As it is, they are only 10/10/10/11/11/11.
Elite array costs +1 CR. Or you could add a class level, that grants elite array+level stuff. Either way, you can't just slap Elite Array in a monster.

Would you be including class levels on some of these dragons or keeping them "as is" as just pure monsters with HD's gained only by advancement?
I will do classed dragons eventually, but I want to get pure dragon builds done first. But if you have some of your own, feel free to share. Just added Clanjos build.

Something I noticed; at 39HD (+2HD), a Steel Dragon (I know you're a while off yet) is still only Large Size, but with 21st level spell casting, it has access to Epic Spellcasting while not being advanced yet, something not even a Gold Dragon can achieve. As a Loredrake, it gains Spellcraft as a class skill (so 42 rank cap). A Great Wyrm Blue Dragon would not be able to do that until it reaches its second stage of Epic advancement.
The online Steel dragon is a misprint as far as I care. The CR values of the older ones are waaayyy too low, not to mention it is casting as a sorceror above his CR, before you throw in loredrake cheese. In particular when the Steel Dragon also appears in Forgotten Realms with much saner caster-CR ratios.

If you are going advanced, then the steel Dragon is considered "ordinary", it starts off small, and only becomes huge; not only do they get Improved Spell Capacity but they jump from Huge to Colossal, completely skipping Huge at 40HD.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I don't see any Steel Dragon progression that can get to Colossal, either in the online version, or the Forgotten Realms one.

Would you like some help with some of the other dragons? I could do with a small *job* for something to do, and have access to most books. I wouldn't want to overlap with you, so would choose ones which you aren't likely to cover for a while; I'd especially like to have a look at the Dragon Compendium ones; Purple Dragons always hold a particular interest for me since [hovis advert] when I were a lad, and would definately be interested in doing that.

Are there any guidelines are stuff you don't want to include, like undue Shenanigans, item abuse etc?
Well, this is meant as a general guide, so if you knowingly include shenigans and cheese, you should point them out. It's nice to have samples to challenge pimped out parties, but refrain from stuff that means "You die unless you prepared for it". Like heighten breath+oceanus dragon for area daze with a DC of "roll natural 20 or fail". And yes, any work you can make on splat dragons would be a great help, since I'm still busy with the core dragons.

Offline vaz

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Re: Being Bahamut-Oslecamo's guide for DM use of dragons discussion
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2014, 03:25:52 AM »
I got the stats from Dragons of Faerun; Great Wyrm Steel Dragons have CL21 and 37HD.

The Epic Progression rules comes from "advanced dragons" from the ELH. For every 3HD advanced, it increases a virtual age category;

Quote
A dragon that is Tiny as a wyrmling is in the lesser group, a dragon that is Small as a wyrmling and never reaches Colossal size is in the ordinary group, and a dragon that is Small to Large as a wyrmling and reaches Colossal by the great wyrm stage is in the greater group

Steel Dragons are Small as Wyrmlings, and Huge as Great Wyrms.

Quote
An ordinary dragon becomes Colossal when it gains one age category (3 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm

So, advancing a Great Wyrm by +2 HD to 39 (for the additional feat, and hence Epic Spellcasting) still keeps it within the 12 Age Categories, without going into virtual age categories. In regards to adding on Loredrake, that was simply the most economical method of getting Spellcraft (without wasting a feat) as a class skill; the CL boosting to 23 is not particularly relevant.

Edit; scratch that, just realised it wasn't CL21, but requires 9th level spells; so available by Very Old (either as a Spellhoarder, or Loredrake); CR13, thanks.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 07:35:19 PM by vaz »