Author Topic: 5e Gestalt Rules  (Read 14443 times)

Offline Nunkuruji

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5e Gestalt Rules
« on: September 17, 2014, 10:33:38 PM »
Not that Gestalt is all that complex, but here's an adaptation.


---Prerequisite Ability Scores---
Gestalt characters must meet the multiclass ability score prerequisites of both classes.

---Hit Dice---
Choose the larger hit die

---Proficiencies---
Gain armor proficiencies of both classes
Gain weapon proficiencies of both classes
Gain saving throw proficiency of both classes
Gain skill proficiency options of both classes
Proficiency Bonus remains the same progression

---Class Features---
A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes
Extra Attack from more than one class do not add together.
Channel Divinity gained from both sides of progression combine their number of uses, and may use effects of both classes.
Unarmored Defense may be acquired from both sides of progression, but only the benefit of one version is gained at a time.
Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class combine their number of spell slots from each side of progression, and may cast spells of either class using their spell slots just as per multiclass characters can. Each side follows multiclass spell slot progression as normal.

---Background & Equipment---
Single Background
Suggested to not use starting equipment, but rather starting wealth: either greater wealth of the two classes, or combined wealth of the two classes.


Sane? Miss anything?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 11:11:42 AM by Nunkuruji »

Offline linklord231

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 12:24:24 AM »
I'd say you keep the normal number of spell slots, but can prepare each list separately and if you have multiple "recover X spell slots per short rest" abilities you can use all of them.  Reason being that there are much, much fewer spell slots per day in this edition and there are very few ways to expand that number.  Doubling it seems like it would unbalancing. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 01:19:44 AM »
I was thinking about this very thing the other day, looks like you beat me to the punch.
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Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 10:57:38 AM »
I'd say you keep the normal number of spell slots, but can prepare each list separately and if you have multiple "recover X spell slots per short rest" abilities you can use all of them.  Reason being that there are much, much fewer spell slots per day in this edition and there are very few ways to expand that number.  Doubling it seems like it would unbalancing.

I briefly considered this, but concluded that it would be singling out double casters unfairly.
Consider two mundane classes with expendable resources, such as a Monk//Barbarian. Should they only have half of their #Rages and Ki Points?

Gestalt by its very nature is going to allow players to continue onward longer before rest, largely regardless of particular class combos, that is, unless DMs rightfully pit them against tougher opponents that require them to expend more resources per combat.

What one can do in a round of combat is also going to rise somewhat, with 20th level basic considerations such as:
Fighter//Barbarian executing 4 attacks per round with Rage Damage, Brutal Criticals and any other Archetype bonuses.
(evoker)Wizard//Sorcerer could cast a high level spell as an action, then spend 2 sorcery points to metamagic quicken a 5th level spell and overchannel it. (I think this one is actually possible with Wizard17/Sorcerer3)

I think this all falls well within the tradition and expectation of 3.5 gestalt.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 05:08:46 PM »
sorta tangent ... Mommy Was An Orc has posted the first "salvo" against multiclassing, back at wotc.  His contention is it's almost always better to run up the casting, than mess it up at all with even a 1 level dip.  Of course it's generated debate.


gestalt
"Spell Slots stack" is good, and easily accommodates multiclassing.
"Spells Known don't stack" is bad, and is being recognized as such.
Still capping either or both at the standard multi max, would incentivize Half , Third and Non casters.
I could see Gestalt sticking with the normal multi rules for Spell Slots, but having a near total stacking on Spells Known.
Something like FighterEK // RogAT = a 2/3rds caster prog, and a Half Caster Class // FEKRAT Caster Class = 5/6ths caster prog.
There should be a small incentive for going Full Caster 20 // X , instead of say Full 14 / Half 6 // X ... idk what.

I have no idea what to do with Warlock.  That's a hot mess worth years of old school C.O. debate, all by itself.  Gestalt = kaboom on that.
 :D

Expanding lists to handle higher slots/knowns, is easy.
FEKRAT goes Wizard already ; Paladin -> Cleric ; Ranger -> Druid.
Maybe make Monk -> Warlock to make both worse  ;)
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Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2014, 05:54:33 PM »
I don't care to derail to discuss in detail multiclass Warlock, but for Gestalt Warlock, here's what I gather:

-Going a full 20 in Warlock has little synergy to offer the other side of a Gestalt, as even Eldritch Master only applies to Pact Magic slots.
-The Otherworldly Patron options offer some really nice survival utility. The 6th and 10th level abilities in each are all very nice in this new world of no mega buffing.
-If you are not taking a martial class on the other side, you can still get two attacks with Pact of the Blade and Thristing Blade, and improve it further with Lifedrinker.
-Passive/Unlimited benefits of Invocations
-Note that Pact Magic spell slots are usable for any class spells as normal, but for multiclass the slots are additive instead of a cumulative progression roll up.
--Fighter // Paladin / Warlock: something like has the above benefits and the spell slots can be expended for either class, and perhaps having higher slots is not of interest.
--Caster // Sorcerer / Warlock: Pick up the great Warlock passives. More high level spells known, due to the progression, and since it is determined by your highest spell slot - in this case from the other side of Gestalt. Fewer high level spells slots than a 20//20, sorcery points to burn the extra lower slots. Utility...

Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2016, 02:44:41 PM »
Our group went forward with this Gestalt ruling in E6 format. So I'll share the experience so far, having held about 10 sessions so far.

Players started at 6th with 1 class, and each session grants a gestalt class level or feat.
A positive (imo) side effect has been that some encounters have been dealt with using more intelligent methods rather than just smash the exp/loot grab bag.


PC Builds

Half-Orc (Half-Bear :) ) Bear Totem Barbarian 6 // Champion Fighter 3 / Spell-less Ranger 3
Glaive with Sentinel & Polearm Master feats
Straightforward critical machine with some maneuvers. Rage's resistances sustaining effective hp through battle.

Half-Elf Vengeance Paladin 6 // Rogue 1 / Fiend & Blade Warlock 5
Houseruled Spell Blade invocation prior to Greenflame Blade's existence
Melee DPS with burst options. Tanks reasonably well between high AC and Warlock temp hp.

Aasimar Tempest Cleric 6 // Blue Dragon Sorcerer 6
Lightning Burst & some healing AC tank-mage.

Deep Gnome Rogue 1 / Mystic 5 // Illusionist Wizard 6
Brains of the party
High accuracy crossbow sniping, massive burst at times with Lethal Strikes
Utility spells & clever uses of illusions

Halfling Arcane Trickster Rogue 6 // Hunter Ranger 5 / Fighter 1
Skulking sniper. Consistent high damage and accuracy.

Dwarf Moon Druid 6 // Bear Barbarian 5 / Monk 1
Natural Attacks houseruled as monk weapons for purposes of Martial Arts.
Point man, high perception.
Favored form of Giant Constrictor Snake, combined with Rage makes for incredible EHPs and soak, as well as crowd control from constrict. Snek-Fu.

Leprechaun Bard 6 // ???
Leprechaun being custom and a blend of other races abilities
Player makes it about 1 session per quarter, usually causing comedic and erratic circumstances. Fitting player character.


We tend to have 4-5 PCs show each session. So far the party has survived all encounters, including some CR9 + minions. I'd estimate they can take on at least CR12. The synergies the party has built within their own characters, and with teamwork pays out really well. Enough melee feeding sneak attack conditions for ranged, advantage generation through constrict, temp hit points provisioned & refreshable, etc. Resource exhaustion & actual exhaustion condition have probably been the scariest things for them, as the more magic oriented classes rely heavily on those resourced abilities to stay effective.

The lack of complex high level magic I think has been fairly appreciated, keeping the turns fairly short and quick, rather than getting muddled in rules. The staple spells everyone loves are there. They haven't received any substantial magic treasure beyond a rare and a common as starting items.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2016, 04:36:39 PM »
Niice.
I'm trying but won't succeed, to convince
my homegame into doing Gestalt (sigh).



What do you think of these ideas:

a) ... everybody gets a feat at level 1, humans are not Variant anymore but can sub 1 skill for a +1.

b) ... pair any levels 4, 8, 12 etc to get only 1 feat and only a +2 stat, out of the combo.  Fighter 6 and 14, and Rogue 10 are exempt.

c) ... total spell slots limited to normal multiclassing full caster max, any other class features still work.  Example: Tiefling Sorc//Lock with Magical Training would still go quite the boom.

d) ... one side has to go single class to 20, leaving oddball multiclassing to the other side only.

e) ... "lo" power stats go 8 10 12 14 16 18 and "hi" power stats go 10 12 14 16 18 20 (because everybody always  :tongue rolls high).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 04:39:29 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2016, 05:56:37 PM »
From my experience

a) feats aren't particularly crazy, but an extra feat early can help with versatility, depending on the choice.

b) the big deal about stat rises for gestalt is making up for the small numeric differences / chances in the higher CR monsters they should be facing, saving throws, atk/ac. Also for multiclassing (as per point d)

c) would not recommend that if higher CR monsters are used with gestalt. The resources are needed.

d) Probably best, especially if all the UA sources are available, but also needs to consider how many stat bonuses are available to fulfill mutliclass prereq (points a & b). Depends on how you feel about 5e's mundanes, as I think multiclass dipping would benefit them the most. Personally, if we were going full out to 20 instead of E6, i would have banned multiclassing. Only reason I allowed it, is some classes got shafted because their archetype benefit was at 7th instead of 6th, or was largely fluff/sucked.

e) we've done point buy since i took over as group DM. Previous DM did rolls, feast or famine for some players.


Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2016, 02:53:57 PM »
We've been campaigning under this rule set in combination with e6 for quite some time now.

Just recently the party managed to lair kill a legendary adult black dragon (CR14), without much fuss, even forgoing some options such as action surge.

Lair Action: persistent acid damage fog each round, conSaveNeg
Surprise round, the paladin//warlock stumbled into the encounter, getting himself and the rogue/ranger failed saves against acid breath
The barbarian//fighter and barbarian//druid moved into melee, rage, wild shaped
The paladin//warlock and wizard//mystic failed against fear

Other than that, it was largely just tank and spank, with the barbarians mitigating, and returning a lot of damage.


After that I said maybe the next one should be Ancient.  :clap


So in general, for well built teams it seems double CR is a reasonable starting point for gestalt encounters. That's a statement of the state of CR in the first place, and the additional versatility out of gestalt.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2016, 03:25:56 PM »
Your observations make sense, since a level 6 party isn't hugely different from an even split level 12 multiclass.  The only differences are in spell slots, HP, and proficiency.  Your saving throw rules are going to make a remarkably resilient party to magic and non-AC attacks too, which will screw over a creature like a dragon.

e: Looking more closely, your gestalt characters are essentially level 12 characters outside of proficiency and HP with some distinct advantages over normal level 12 characters.  Getting up to 4 saving throw proficiencies without Resilient is crazy good for 5e.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 03:34:07 PM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2016, 05:21:47 PM »
The only player with some truly amazing saves is the Paladin. Despite the additional proficiencies, the proficiency bonus is still held down at +3, so more of a spread than 12th, but not really anything particularly higher.

They didn't really save vs. the Dragon very well. The barbs raged through the fear, the other guys failed.
The Paladin used vengeance to offset the fear attack disadvantage and then attacked from range.
It came down to tanking the melee hits really well in rounds the acid breath was down.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: 5e Gestalt Rules
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2016, 05:59:26 PM »
An actual level 12 character only has +4 proficiency.  The spread on the gestalt level 6 characters is going to be better overall.  Giving up +1 to 2 saves to gain 2 more proficient saves would be a smart trade for a player to make.  The saves are going to be necessary though for the gestalt level 6s since they will have significantly less HP.

Don't mistake my remarks for saying you need to fix something.  5e's CR system aims low and allows DMs to tweak upward, since some groups want to play the champion fighter and beastmaster ranger with a healer cleric and blaster wizard.

For dragons in particular, I like using the variant innate spellcasting version so they don't have to resort to melee attacks too early.  An adult black dragon can pick up 3 level 4 or lower spells to cast.  Vitriolic Sphere is thematic and Storm Sphere can give it a buffer against ranged attacks, deal aoe damage, and give it a bonus action attack.  Fireball and/or Lightning bolt provide the dragon a way to deal damage and stay away from harm on turns when its breath weapon isn't available, and you can pick up a utility like Shield to make it a bit more durable for a round.  The black dragon's lair should probably be set up to abuse its swim speed and acid immunity too.  Let it retreat to a pool of acid when it doesn't have ranged options or even attempt to grapple someone and drag them in.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 06:02:46 PM by TenaciousJ »
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