Author Topic: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)  (Read 71095 times)

Offline Frogman55

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2014, 03:55:48 PM »
Ok, I think I'm going to run with a Allip 3/ Half-Fiend 3/ Beguiler 14. Though I may take a single level of beguiler before the half-fiend levels, just so I'm not stuck with a single level 1 spell. Assuming that's legal. :)

Assassin Devils were attractive to me, too. But that madness ability of the Allip was just too attractive in a mindflayer campaign.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2014, 05:42:19 PM »
Also needs some touch of infernal.
It would have since it'd be an Imp :p

I think I changed my mind anyway, an Ols game is a great chance to play as a crazy monster :p
Hellbred Penetrating Strike Rogue 1 / Shadow-Creature 1 / Shade 3 / Half-Fiend 3 / Variant Dread Commando 5 / Variant Uncanny Trickster(dread) 3 / Telflammar Shadowlord 4
Like about always a few heads up.
A. I'm trying to extend Dread Commando there, mostly for the +10% Concealment but the +1d6 SS is nice too. Total 85% miss.
B. Using Shade's Shadow Stride to fit the intent of DDoor/Shadow Jump to qualify.
C. I'm hoping Penetrating Strike on Sudden Strike is ok?
Planning on stacking Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Mosquito's Bite & Shade Hands to stealthy strike once and run away. By the time a target knows he was hit he's lost a ton of HP, and currently dealing with poison and being nibbled on for overkill. And when stuff gets deep, Shadow Pounce! It's nicer than a Spellcaster and the Concealment will help against all those nasty SLAs Devils/Demons can use and your habit of nearly murdering people for sport. :p

Flavor? You can thank your Harvester Devil entry.
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That work out?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 08:01:35 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2014, 07:11:32 AM »
Things I'm contemplating:

Fiendish Creature 1/ Wild Hunt 19 

Xixical 20 (He's got the chaotic and evil subtypes, I'm assuming that would be fine.)

Fiendish Creature 1/ Marrusault 5 / Marruspawn Abomination 14 (Might as well try to use my own stuff sometime.)
Either of those sounds good.

Edit: And to throw in something that isn't your homebrew

Garryl's Power of Cybernetics system (a sci-fi incarnum replacement, it's his Metroid as Incarnum system after a large overhaul, I've been helping.  I'd reflavor it as stolen illithid technology if that works.)

Edit edit: The more I think about it the more I want to play a class from Power of Cybernetics...
Power of cybernetics is fine by me, and yes stolen Thoon tech would fit nicely for fluff purposes (or it could just be good old infernal machinery, cough retriever cough). You'll still need at least one level of something infernal somewhere in the build. :p

Ok, I think I'm going to run with a Allip 3/ Half-Fiend 3/ Beguiler 14. Though I may take a single level of beguiler before the half-fiend levels, just so I'm not stuck with a single level 1 spell. Assuming that's legal. :)

Assassin Devils were attractive to me, too. But that madness ability of the Allip was just too attractive in a mindflayer campaign.
Yes, you don't need to take all of the monster class levels in a row.

Also needs some touch of infernal.
It would have since it'd be an Imp :p

I think I changed my mind anyway, an Ols game is a great chance to play as a crazy monster :p
Hellbred Penetrating Strike Rogue 1 / Shadow-Creature 1 / Shade 3 / Half-Fiend 3 / Variant Dread Commando 5 / Variant Uncanny Trickster(dread) 3 / Telflammar Shadowlord 4
Like about always a few heads up.
A. I'm trying to extend Dread Commando there, mostly for the +10% Concealment but the +1d6 SS is nice too. Total 85% miss.
B. Using Shade's Shadow Stride to fit the intent of DDoor/Shadow Jump to qualify.
C. I'm hoping Penetrating Strike on Sudden Strike is ok?
Planning on stacking Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Mosquito's Bite & Shade Hands to stealthy strike once and run away. By the time a target knows he was hit he's lost a ton of HP, and currently dealing with poison and being nibbled on for overkill. And when stuff gets deep, Shadow Pounce! It's nicer than a Spellcaster and the Concealment will help against all those nasty SLAs Devils/Demons can use and your habit of nearly murdering people for sport. :p

Flavor? You can thank your Harvester Devil entry.
(click to show/hide)

That work out?
SS+Penetrating Strike and using Shadow Stride to qualify sounds good, but exactly what variants of Dread Commando and Uncanny Trickster are you talking about?

Also 85% miss chance won't help you against area mind blasts, but I guess the main draw of that class will be full attacking like crazy. :p

So yes, I would be less worried if you played a fullcaster than a mind pirate.
So I've managed to make a semi-caster that you think is more overpowered than a full caster. I think I should take that as a compliment. :P What if I went with the ACF to replace casting with a martial adept progression? Is it still too strong? If so, then my work is done.  :lmao
No matter how you look at it, the mind pirate ability to steal the strongest abilities in the game and stack them up at leisure while having an uncapped army of permanent  fullcasters at its orders ( at-will mindrape ho!) already makes it easily the equal of any fullcaster, if not better. Improved bardic spellcasting is an extra for that class, not a main feature.

But anyway it looks like other things caught your attention, so let's end this topic.

Edit: Barghest looks like fun, maybe slap some rogue levels on it.

Wow... the Denizen of Leng is awesome. Maybe they have a beef with Thoon for some reason?  :lmao

Wow... so is pseudonatural... I think playing up some kind of "rivalry" between different Far Realm factions/entities could be fun.

OK... because I am totally insane... I'm thinking of playing a Denizen of Leng with his "cohort" being a pseudonatural (16) something (2) (considering ettercap, horse, or some kind of spider)
That would work.


Offline Nanshork

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2014, 11:01:56 AM »
Okay, I've narrowed myself down to two things.  Also I've become more invested in this so my maybe interest is now a yes interest.


Fiendish Creature 1/ Marrusault 5 / Marruspawn Abomination 14 - A melee brute with lots of hp and immunities, DR, Fast Healing, etc.  I like it.

Some sort of fiendish base / Garryl's Power of Cybernetics system - Stolen Thoon technology or normal infernal technology (or both!).  I'd wait to decide how to build it out until seeing what people with more defined opinions want to play.

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2014, 01:36:29 PM »
If you went with the Marruspawn, we'd be two very difficult-to-kill beasts, though you'd be more direct in dealing damage. My jovoc is more about being sneaky and turning enemy attacks against them, and surviving those attacks with high hit points and fast healing. Wish there was a way to add a bit more utility into the build (or boost the damage of my claw attacks or add another affect to them), though we'll have to see.

The Cybernetics system would be very interesting to see in play, though.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2014, 02:22:54 PM »
If you went with the Marruspawn, we'd be two very difficult-to-kill beasts, though you'd be more direct in dealing damage. My jovoc is more about being sneaky and turning enemy attacks against them, and surviving those attacks with high hit points and fast healing. Wish there was a way to add a bit more utility into the build (or boost the damage of my claw attacks or add another affect to them), though we'll have to see.

The Cybernetics system would be very interesting to see in play, though.
Remember that gelatinous cube/jovoc hybrid I threw at you guys in the Fall of Pun-Pun game? It was actually a Mindstealer Drone/Jovoc hybrid that had absorbed a gelatinous cube. Good times. :D

The Blitzcube
(click to show/hide)
Of course this was built using Tome feats, and it had a couple of bonus feats, so you'd have to retool it a bit, if you were inclined to use it. :D

And it won't be as fun as using as an NPC, as the "Surprise! I'm a Jovoc!" element is completely lost.  :lmao
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 02:25:51 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2014, 02:34:35 PM »
Yep, definitely a "Curses! Hoisted by my own petard!" situation.  :lmao

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2014, 03:07:05 PM »
No matter how you look at it, the mind pirate ability to steal the strongest abilities in the game and stack them up at leisure while having an uncapped army of permanent  fullcasters at its orders ( at-will mindrape ho!) already makes it easily the equal of any fullcaster, if not better. Improved bardic spellcasting is an extra for that class, not a main feature.

But anyway it looks like other things caught your attention, so let's end this topic.
Stack them up at leisure? Those abilities are taken whole-cloth from the Spellthief, and have the same limitations (which are pretty severe).

For example: Steal Spell-Like Ability has the following limitations: maximum of one-third the spellthief's class level, he can only "hold" a stolen SLA for 1 minute, and it is used exactly as if the creature he stole it from used it (so CL, save DC, etc).

I based Steal Su ability on that, so it would also have the same limitations.

As for Mindrape... it's not like that's the only spell in the game that lets you get minions... Hell, you can do basically the same thing at 1st level with Charm Person and/or Diplomacy. And the Mindpirate's Mindrape also comes with some limitations: it can only be used once per round, you have to hit them, they get a Will save, and it is a Mind-Affecting enchantment... You can also only used it on one creature at a time.

The Mindpirate was meant as an attempt to beef up the spellthief into something more flavorful and useful, because the original spellthief is regarded by most as a sad class that had a lot of potential but wasn't put together very well.

I'm sorry to keep dragging this out here. Perhaps you could make more comments in the thread for the class? I think maybe you just overlooked some of the built-in limitations, or were turned off by the complexity of running one, or having one in the game due to the amount of metagame knowledge that would be involved?

Edit: Maybe I should make the Mindrape useable only if you kill the enemy with your Styx-forged weapon? That could also fit thematically, and would serve to limit that ability substantially more.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 03:56:51 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2014, 04:37:13 PM »
Not to thread-jack more, but killing the enemy with the weapon sounds like a more thematic limitation. Not sure how a dead minion works in a practical sense, but it could work. Maybe when you reduce them to 0, if you succeed on the mindrape effect then the minion instead is reduced to 1 hp, and they gain a certain amount of THP. Once those are gone the minion is gone. Or something. I'm not actually very familiar with the spell so I'm just tossing darts in the dark here.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2014, 05:53:27 PM »
You brought me here, so I have to ask: does Youkai Magician count as Outsider Enough that I don't have to mess around with Monster classes? Alice is quite literally from hell... and the class is definitely more her than Patchouli. :P

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2014, 07:08:48 PM »
Not to thread-jack more, but killing the enemy with the weapon sounds like a more thematic limitation. Not sure how a dead minion works in a practical sense, but it could work. Maybe when you reduce them to 0, if you succeed on the mindrape effect then the minion instead is reduced to 1 hp, and they gain a certain amount of THP. Once those are gone the minion is gone. Or something. I'm not actually very familiar with the spell so I'm just tossing darts in the dark here.
The Mind Pirate's version works a bit differently from the original, in that he basically sucks their "mind" (or soul... not sure how different those are in D&D terms...) into his sword. Then he can use that trapped mind/soul to steal memories, SLAs, etc from for as long as he wants to keep it (he can only have one such stolen mind at a time, unless he constructs special receptacles to hold the others, which cost 1000 gp per CR, and I'm certainly open to dropping the ability to have more than one entirely). He still has all the other limitations on stealing and using SLAs , etc, from these trapped minds, except that they don't get a save.

He can release the mind whenever he wants, and may alter its memories as part of this release. I think this is the part where we'd have to make up some more rules if we say he has to kill them to trap their mind/soul. Probably this would bring the subject back to life as he'd used Revivify on them or something.

So for example if he killed a Mind Flayer and sucked its mind/soul into his weapon, he could then steal its Mind Blast. He'd only be able to retain this stolen Mind Blast for up to 1 minute though, and could only use it once. He could steal it again later, though, since the Mind Flayer can use it at will (and we'll need to define an action for stealing things from his trapped mind). He could also steal the Mind Flayer's Plane Shift ability, but after he'd used it he couldn't steal it again for 24 hours because the Mind Flayer only has one use per day.

He would have full access to all of the Mind Flayer's memories, and if he chose to release it, he could modify those memories as he saw fit during the process. If we're going with the modification that he has to kill it to trap it, then he'd have to have its intact and preserved body in order to restore it to life.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 07:23:03 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2014, 08:11:22 PM »
You know I would totally be down to play some kind of Vile Slime Gurl  of some kind

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I just retired my Exalted goo in another game on account that the vow of peace was disrupting the party. I need more goo in my life.
Im really bad at what I do.
A+

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2014, 11:16:50 PM »
SS+Penetrating Strike and using Shadow Stride to qualify sounds good, but exactly what variants of Dread Commando and Uncanny Trickster are you talking about?

Some PrCs have an adaption noted towards the end of their entries. Uncanny Trickster trades away bonus Skill Tricks for Bonus Feats that enhance movement and defense. Long story short it pays for Mobility and reduces the impact of having to pick up four Feats just to enter Shadowlord. I think you said Flaws are ok so currently looking at: Blind-Fight & Dodge (flaws) and Mobility & Elusive Target (bonus). Darkstalker, Craven, Quicker Than The Eye, Head Shot, Martial Study(shadow stride?), Martial Stance(assassin's stance), & Shadow Blade for the standard 7 Feat Slots which leaves one Bonus left. Quicker is probably pretty subjective since Partial Actions don't exist anymore, but it's mentioned usage (attack as a move action) means I can spend a Standard Action to do something else, like steal something off them without a -20 penalty before slitting their throat. :)

Dread Commando's adaption I can quote since that PDF was OCR'ed.
Quote from: FR:HoH106
Adaptation
The dread commando is a heavily armored quick-strike specialist. For characters who are not strong enough to avoid being encumbered by heavy armor, you could replace the class’s armor abilities [editor's note: armored ease] with a concealment progression, in which dread commandos benefit from a cumulative 5% miss chance per level when in natural terrain. This benefit allows unarmored or lightly armored commandos an opportunity to join a quick-strike team and provides them a defensive benefit to make up for their lack of the heavier armor.
Which come to think of it Concealment doesn't stack. All well, SS, team initiative and Hide/Move bonuses are still awesome either way. :p

Edit - Oops Head Shot requires a Bludgeoning Weapon. Let me get back to you on that one. It's a shame you have to waste a dozen Feat to make poison viable :(
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 11:27:44 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2014, 10:40:17 AM »
I've always wanted to use Fell Conspiracy in a game. Thematically it seems like it could fit into this one. Some of the fiend feats with Brand of the Nine Hells as a prereq are also quite good, but very difficult to qualify for in most games. Mark of Avernus in particular could be amazing for builds that make heavy use of SLAs. It makes me want to look through all of the devils in Oslecamo's material just to find the best one to use it with. :P
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 01:51:26 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2014, 12:26:06 PM »
I've always wanted to use Fell Conspiracy in a game. Thematically it seems like it could fit into this one. Some of the fiend feats with Brand of the Nine Hells as a prereq are also quite good, but very difficult to qualify for in most games.

Hmm, the Inviolate Link part is interesting. If we're all involved in the ceremony, none of us will be flat-footed since my current build has me immune to being flat-footed.

I might lose out on that feature though. I'm finding myself a bit feat-starved (no Flaws for a Paragon!), short of DCFS which is probably banned. So I might lose Paragon Reflexes. It's a bit of a chore to fit all the Excellences I want since I have to make sure to stack them into the Perfect Excellences, and there are really only two of those I want. The third right now is just shoe-horned in because none of the others are appealing, that or I can't qualify for the others. *shrug*
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 12:27:58 PM by VennDygrem »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2014, 02:39:16 PM »
It makes me want to look through all of the devils in Oslecamo's material just to find the best one to use it with. :P
How about a Harvester Devil 7 / Warlock 6 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Any 1?

Harvester 6 can bypass immunity to Critical Hits while Flanking which got me to thinking about the devil type. Anyway, main gist is Warlock to Hellfire to extension. If you take a lesser devil you can get better SLAs than Lesser which would be pretty nice. Int & Cha focused tactical devil warlock sounds pretty cool.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2014, 03:51:57 PM »
It makes me want to look through all of the devils in Oslecamo's material just to find the best one to use it with. :P
How about a Harvester Devil 7 / Warlock 6 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Any 1?

Harvester 6 can bypass immunity to Critical Hits while Flanking which got me to thinking about the devil type. Anyway, main gist is Warlock to Hellfire to extension. If you take a lesser devil you can get better SLAs than Lesser which would be pretty nice. Int & Cha focused tactical devil warlock sounds pretty cool.
I think I'd want to mix in some rogue or other SA granting class in there, due to the devil levels stacking with it. But yeah, that could work. It would give you a free quickened Dispel or Mirror Image at the beginning of each fight, or of course one of your warlock SLAs. (I guess that could be the ?1). With Eldritch Glaive, this could be a nasty build...

Man... the Ice Devil looks fun as hell... I especially love this ability:
Quote
You've failed me for the last time: At 8th level, whenever one of the Ice Devil summons misses a melee attack against an oponent they both threaten, the Ice Devil may sacrifice the summon as a free action to create a distraction that allows it to perform a new melee attack as a free action against said oponent. The summon dies in a specially gory way regardless of defences, but all other summons from the Ice Devil gain a moral bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to the Ice Devil's Cha mod for 1 round per HD.
I don't think I want to deal with the book keeping needed for hordes of minions, though...

Hmm... Pit Fiend could be fun. They get a ton of SLAs...

My god the Paeliryon wins this contest, though... and Greedy Game looks absolutely amazing. Playing puppet-master types of characters that deal in information is one of my favorite things in D&D. I think I might have found a new favorite. :D
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 05:10:18 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2014, 04:14:56 PM »
A dip into Rogue will give you 4d6 SA which is pretty nice. And you can snag Craven for +34 damage on average before items. :)

Ice Devil Bard/Crusader focused on White Raven would require a ton of bookkeeping, but imagine the sheer damage every round.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 04:17:19 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2014, 04:20:10 PM »
I'm also working on adapting the arrow demon as a monster class, if anyone's looking for something along those lines. Just trying to pad out the 7 levels right now and keep the lower levels balanced. ;)

Offline Frogman55

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Re: Interest Check-Blood Crusade against Thoon (3.X, high level, Evil)
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2014, 04:32:31 PM »
I think I've confused myself. The Allip's madness ability does 1d4 wisdom drain. However, at fourth HD, and every 4 HD after that, the drain increases by one die size. Does that refer to the dice themselves, or does it increase like weapon die? Does it go: 1d4->1d6->1d8->1d10->1d12->1d20; or does it go: 1d4 - 1d6 - 1d8 - 2d6 - 3d6 - 4d6?

Also, I'm just checking my assumptions, because I haven't found a rule to the contrary and its been a long time since I played with monster classes, do class levels affect monster abilities that depend on HD, or is it only monster levels? In other words, if I want that Allip's madness ability to be at 1d20 (or 4d6), can I have an Allip 3/ Whatever 17? Or does it need to be Allip 3 / Monster templates 17?