Author Topic: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?  (Read 55595 times)

Offline Endarire

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2015, 10:52:17 PM »
3.5 right now is like Magic: The Gathering - LOTS of options, LOTS of complexity, HUGE time sink before you can get into it seriously.  There are LOTS of traps, LOTS of variance in power levels, and LOTS of things to track - even for simple* by-the-rules activities like fighting bandits or balancing or grappling.

5E right now is like an elegant rewrite of D&D 2E/3E/4E, combining the best aspects of each.  It's simple, it's focused, and it's good at what it does.  If you simply want to play a dungeon crawl/political intrigue/video RPG-like tabletop game, it's elegant and it generally works well out of the box.  Lemme say that again:  It works well out of the box!  You don't need to make an Ubercharger to be a useful melee man.  You don't have Enchanter Tim losing access to spell schools, thereby making him useless outside of his field of specialty.  You also, currently, don't have a by-the-rules guide on how to make a Dire Ape Barbarian Monkey-Pony.  Finally, you don't (or at least I didn't) have the amount of rules lawyering/rules bickering that 3.x/PF had.  It's simpler, it's intentionally simpler, and it's a good thing for people who don't want to spend a solid week researching how to best optimize one character.  5E is also better suited for the expected audience - busy people - that is, people who want a life outside the game.

Sure, 3.5 is great to us, but that's because we've spent a large and important part of our lives and free time playing and discussing it and writing posts and guides about it.  The typical* player?  Just plays things he thinks is interesting and doesn't spend hours or days or weeks researching.  He's here for a game, not homework.

On the GM's side, there's unquestioningly less effort required to make and run an interesting 5E campaign that doesn't spontaneously break or slow to a crawl due to the minutia.  How much does it matter that 3.5's 'PCs and NPCs should be equal' philosophy matter when you rarely face the same creatures both out of and in combat?  (Out of combat, social skills matter.  In combat, fighty stuff matters.)

There's a good reason I'd rather be a PC than a GM for many 3.5/PF campaigns.  I've done it.  (I ran a campaign from level 1 to 21.)  I could do it because I had 20-40 hours per week to prepare and play.  Right now, I have other things that are of higher priority to me.

Finally, what's more important - the rules or the play?  I had to learn this the hard way.  Tremendous knowledge of and strict adherence to the rules in an environment meant for notable degrees of improvization when messing around with friends is often an obstacle to fun.  My campaign that ran levels 1-21?  I didn't use the rules to their fullest.  I didn't try to exploit every little edge I could.  I just went with a general knowledge of what would work, told my story, involved my friends (and myself!, and we all had a hilarious, good time over the span of 16 months.

The rules exist to facilitate play, not to replace it!

(*Subjective)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 10:59:27 PM by Endarire »

Offline Chemus

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2015, 12:16:26 AM »
Raineh, DDchamp, and Endarire have all made good points. I'd like to reframe my main point; when I have a PC, say a halfling paladin, and I encounter an NPC halfling paladin with abilities that would be against the rules, or most especially impossible for me to get, I feel cheated. Even if its cuz the DM is short of time and finds tacking abil's on to be an easy method of challenging the party.

I'm not expecting 4x10E50 options, but if an NPC can get there, there should be a path for me to take to get there, though I might elect not to take it, due to costs or whatever. If the DM uses stuff because it makes his job easier, but denies those same things to me, I'm distracted from his story. And less interested in playing his game...

tl;dr

If you sell guns to him but rocks to me, I will be irritated.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2015, 02:22:11 AM »
  How much does it matter that 3.5's 'PCs and NPCs should be equal' philosophy matter when you rarely face the same creatures both out of and in combat?  (Out of combat, social skills matter.  In combat, fighty stuff matters.)


It matters if you want a deeper immersion in a fantasy world. More reading of the rulebook and people's opinion has however led me to believe this kind of people are not 5e's target audience.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2015, 05:48:16 AM »
To the above two posts: everything running on the same rules isn't more immersive for everyone. I cannot remember the last time I honestly paid enough attention to NPC abilities to realise if they were doing something I couldn't get at.

Reverse engineering NPC statblocks seems the opposite of immersion.

Offline LordBlades

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2015, 06:05:11 AM »
To the above two posts: everything running on the same rules isn't more immersive for everyone. I cannot remember the last time I honestly paid enough attention to NPC abilities to realise if they were doing something I couldn't get at.

Reverse engineering NPC statblocks seems the opposite of immersion.

It is more immersive for me/us. A world where stuff operates by consistent rules and/or in-game justifications is more believable to me than a world full of arbitrary restrictions.

You can't be permanently invisible brcause you're not an Invisible Stalker makes sense in game. You can't learn Parry because you're a PC is a pure out of game limitation.

Another thing that really annoys me in regard to the feel of the game world is the absolute separation of races into 'naughty' (monsters) and 'nice' (people). People don't get a classless entry in the MM (except for NPC archetypes), monsters don't get racial traits (so you can't play them). 5e right now is the game where you can play an Aarakocra but not a Goblin, Kobold or Orc.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 03:54:35 PM by LordBlades »

Offline Endarire

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2015, 05:25:33 PM »
I too value logical, consitent rules, but I also value a game I enjoy.  Sometimes there's overlap.  I wrote the 3.5 module The Metaphysical Revolution because of the tremendous gap I saw repeatedly in other games I played between PCs and NPCs.  The campaign's tone is akin to a low-level Tippyverse (E6ish) in that low-level magic is prevalent, but that higher level magic can be (and is) discovered by those smart and dedicated enough.  The spirit of the campaign is discovery coupled with difficult decisions.  The discovery of new magics and abilities accounts for at least some of 'NPCS get extra special abilities that PCs don't have.'

Regarding immersion in general, it's only where there's a great disparity (not just a missing skill point or few) between PCs and NPCs that it's even noticeable.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2015, 05:35:29 PM »
To the above two posts: everything running on the same rules isn't more immersive for everyone. I cannot remember the last time I honestly paid enough attention to NPC abilities to realise if they were doing something I couldn't get at.

Reverse engineering NPC statblocks seems the opposite of immersion.
Another thing that really annoys me in regard to the feel of the game world is the absolute separation of races into 'naughty' (monsters) and 'nice' (people). People don't get a classless entry in the MM (except for NPC archetypes), monsters don't get racial traits (so you can't play them). 5e right now is the game where you can play an Aarakocra but not a Goblin, Kobold or Orc.

That one's just a matter of time.

Offline DDchampion

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2015, 06:57:04 PM »
The very concept of D&D adventuring implies that there's some things that are mysterious and just can't be replicated.

Heck, even Endarire, who claims to evading those things in his custom campaign, actually has them:
-Special snowflake race with limited numbers that can only be used with DM approval? Check.
-Special snowflake NPC who had special snowflake powers to create the above race? Check.
-Shadowy organization who used their unique abilities to trap the soul of the above special NPC and evade all divination? Check.
-Players questing for ancient artifacts of power nobody can actually replicate with research? Check.

Because really, what's the other option? "Hey guys, there's that evil cleric, he's trying to take over the world, except he's just like every other cleric, so he was already ganked and taken out, ups, no need for you to do anything actually, sorry for bothering you."

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2015, 08:07:42 PM »
Raineh, DDchamp, and Endarire have all made good points. I'd like to reframe my main point; when I have a PC, say a halfling paladin, and I encounter an NPC halfling paladin with abilities that would be against the rules, or most especially impossible for me to get, I feel cheated. Even if its cuz the DM is short of time and finds tacking abil's on to be an easy method of challenging the party.

I'm not expecting 4x10E50 options, but if an NPC can get there, there should be a path for me to take to get there, though I might elect not to take it, due to costs or whatever. If the DM uses stuff because it makes his job easier, but denies those same things to me, I'm distracted from his story. And less interested in playing his game...

tl;dr

If you sell guns to him but rocks to me, I will be irritated.

Show me the NPC who gets a gun AND has all the abilities a player does.

You're selling short the abilities (and items?) the PC is going to have that an NPC won't.  The NPC who has fighter-ish stats and has Parry as a reaction doesn't necessarily have Action Surge.  The NPC paladin might have some extra radiant damage on every hit but they can't perform a 5d8 Divine Smite + 5d10 Banishing Smite on top of a regular hit.

I'm a big fan of the Brute characteristic for NPCs because it lets me create a harder-hitting NPC without having to give every single one of them a magic weapon or very high stats.  Parry is nice because if I actually gave them Defensive Duelist or the Shield spell and worked with the restrictions a player has to, the reaction AC would be higher than the mere +2 or +3 Parry is in most cases.  If I made them into Battle Masters for the parry maneuver, it means the PCs are going to have to deal with other potential maneuvers too.  The NPC abilities are a way for the DM to give the NPCs some functionality beyond just being a stat block that swings a sword without giving them the full versatility of a player or more resources to remember.  It's within your right as a player to not like it I suppose, but these things are great DM tools that help to preserve some of a PC's specialness.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2015, 11:35:17 PM »
The very concept of D&D adventuring implies that there's some things that are mysterious and just can't be replicated.

Because really, what's the other option? "Hey guys, there's that evil cleric, he's trying to take over the world, except he's just like every other cleric, so he was already ganked and taken out, ups, no need for you to do anything actually, sorry for bothering you."

Stuff that can't be replicated is fine. It's stuff that can only be replicated by NPCs that bothers me, unless there's an in-game justification for it.

Alsi, why does the cleric need to be a special snowflake with special sbowflake powers?  Why can't he be just like every other cleric except with a better plan and higher power (level)?


It's within your right as a player to not like it I suppose, but these things are great DM tools that help to preserve some of a PC's specialness.

This is the basic concept that I disagree with: PCs should be apecial because they're PCs. I like games where PCs are still people in the world, not set aside based on their PC status.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 11:38:04 PM by LordBlades »

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2015, 01:52:44 AM »
Any DM could make all their NPCs with the exact same rules as the PCs though.  There just happens to be another pool of NPCs a DM can use that aren't based on PC classes.  If you want to deal with the preparation of creating all NPCs just like PCs, nothing is stopping you, and then those NPC abilities won't be present to make you feel as if the PCs stand out inappropriately.  You're probably going to bring the game a lot closer to rocket tag if every NPC has PC class levels since the NPCs are given hit points with the assumption that they'll be attacked by 4 PCs but the PCs are made to endure generally lower relative damage as the levels progress.  NPCs with classes are going to have higher offensive output for the same hit points compared to the generic NPCs, and then you have issues like a fighter or paladin NPC nova-ing a player with things like Action Surge and smites unless they're just played stupid.  I will use that stuff from time to time but to do it every encounter makes the game rather deadly unless NPCs are always lower level than the party when encountered in groups or higher level NPCs have no backup and don't use their full capabilities right away.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 01:56:48 AM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline Endarire

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2015, 02:47:51 AM »
Often, what abilities NPC A or 'monstar' X has is due to time and convenience on the GM's part.  A player needs only make one character.  A GM makes every other character.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2015, 04:27:51 AM »
  How much does it matter that 3.5's 'PCs and NPCs should be equal' philosophy matter when you rarely face the same creatures both out of and in combat?  (Out of combat, social skills matter.  In combat, fighty stuff matters.)


It matters if you want a deeper immersion in a fantasy world. More reading of the rulebook and people's opinion has however led me to believe this kind of people are not 5e's target audience.

Statblocks do not immersion make.

The first D&D books I cracked open was core AD&D. The monsters didn't even have ability scores back then, but they still felt more "real" than anything in the newer editions. Remin me again why Gynaxian naturalism is looked down upon?
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2015, 01:58:51 PM »
Remin me again why Gynaxian naturalism is looked down upon?
Only if you can tell me what "Gygaxian naturalism" is first.

Offline zugschef

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2015, 02:45:03 PM »
5th edition is already dead. That's all you need to know.
Well, that's an enormous claim.
The thing is out for almost a year and there isn't a single splat book available. And nobody knows if or when there ever will be.
This product line is dead.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2015, 03:41:24 PM »
5th edition is already dead. That's all you need to know.
Well, that's an enormous claim.
The thing is out for almost a year and there isn't a single splat book available. And nobody knows if or when there ever will be.
This product line is dead.

That's an inexplicable line of thought to arrive at 'this is dead'.

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2015, 04:52:52 PM »
5th edition is already dead. That's all you need to know.
Well, that's an enormous claim.
The thing is out for almost a year and there isn't a single splat book available. And nobody knows if or when there ever will be.
This product line is dead.

*cough*

Offline Amechra

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2015, 05:35:23 PM »
Remin me again why Gynaxian naturalism is looked down upon?
Only if you can tell me what "Gygaxian naturalism" is first.

If you crack open a copy of the 1e MM, you'll see a lot of detail put into the ecology of monsters; how many of them live in a settlement, how you would represent their women and children, what they do when you aren't mass-killing their populace...

Stuff like that.

Also, I've seen game lines with much slower release updates, and we've gotten two hardback adventures. What are those, chopped liver?

Besides, it's not like they need to make huge sales to stay afloat; they get their money from Magic, after all, and 5e is mostly to consolidate the core whatever of the D&D brand.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2015, 06:47:46 PM »
@5E's Publication Cycle
Wait a second, has 5E been out for a year without anything other than adventures produced?  That's ... weird.  And, it doesn't do much to allay the feeling that it's a much less rich game system than its predecessors.  I guess this is a completely new approach to D&D, but I'm not sure if it's a sensible one given the basic structure of the system.  There are some games, usually more effects-based ones, that can live with just a core book or two.  D&D has, up till this iteration I guess, never been one of them.  And, I doubt it plays to the system's strengths. 

More generally, it's not a good idea to keep people waiting literally years for products they can use.  Adventures are potentially neat and usually crap, and are certainly not used by every table. 


@Gygaxian Naturalism
I'm not sure it's ever been frowned upon.  There are a number of Gygaxian game elements that I will happily bust on (although I'm not sure why his name gets associated with this particular one), but this isn't something that's usually bugged me. 

Note that the ecology or whatever has, I think, nothing to do with the stat blocks or 5E.  So, I'm not sure where it's figuring in here.

Besides, it's not like they need to make huge sales to stay afloat; they get their money from Magic, after all, and 5e is mostly to consolidate the core whatever of the D&D brand.
I'd be pretty happy if they treated D&D as a loss leader.  I'm less happy if they neglect it, though.  A product line for the most recognizable RPG on the planet that doesn't publish books looks more like neglect than anything else.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Is D&D 5 better than D&D 3.5?
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2015, 07:22:24 PM »
@5E's Publication Cycle
Wait a second, has 5E been out for a year without anything other than adventures produced?  That's ... weird.  And, it doesn't do much to allay the feeling that it's a much less rich game system than its predecessors.  I guess this is a completely new approach to D&D, but I'm not sure if it's a sensible one given the basic structure of the system.  There are some games, usually more effects-based ones, that can live with just a core book or two.  D&D has, up till this iteration I guess, never been one of them.  And, I doubt it plays to the system's strengths. 

More generally, it's not a good idea to keep people waiting literally years for products they can use.  Adventures are potentially neat and usually crap, and are certainly not used by every table.

... isn't the old stuff remembered more for its adventures than its supplements? It's basically 'UA' and then 'stuff no-one really cares about', whilst the adventures are a lot more known. @_@