5E E6+Gestalt Build Stubs / Ideas Thread

[Evil_Dexter]

In the somewhat near future our current gaming group is going to finally wrap our 3+ year 1->20+ Age of Worms 3.5 campaign (in the middle of our Dragotha and friends fight now), and our next adventure so I've been told is going to be running a combo 5E E6 + Gestalt rule set probably close to what's being documented in the following posts:

5E Gestalt Discussion  -> http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=14676
5E E4/E6/E8/E10 Discussion -> http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=14678
5E E6 Ruleset (offsite) -> http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/2fvpw8/e6_in_dd_5e/

I'm brainstorming various different character builds / options, but figured I'd open up the brainstorming session to the greater community to see what folks could come up with that was interesting, entertaining, and occasionally powerful. I know that's a fairly open ended set of criteria, but this is more of an exercise in the art of the possible that my gaming group (DM included... ) may look at and leverage for their character / NPC building for what will be, admittedly, a fairly niche combination of variants on a new rule set. One note, I do think we can multi-class on either (or both?) sides of our gestalt, but it might not be encouraged.

One more rule (for the campaign itself). Not sure on overall starting wealth, but you will start with 1 uncommon magic item and at level 6 (on one side of the gestalt) and you earn up the other half, progressing to feats/stat progression after you have all 12 levels.

So, onto the rough concepts:
Build: Paladin 6 / Dragon Sorcerer 6 (pick your element, but thunder is actually a potentially interesting choice... if we ever got a thunder dragon)
Concept: Straightforward, most likely strength based and not mad, half elf can go a 16/16/16 array (if that's your thing, but the array is flexible). I like Vengeance Pally for the spell list and the channel divinity advantage on attacks, but it's not a requirement. The real draw here is feeding your smites from the sorcerer side (lots of smites / day), potential offensive or defensive nova (quicken mirror image as an example), shield (the spell, in a pinch), 6 additional hit points off the sorcerer side of gestalt from draconic resilience. Con save proficiency. Overall it feels "sound" and versatile. Not an uber nova or sustained DPS build, but it contributes in the damage department, is probably build SOLIDLY tanky (a few extra HP, plate + shield sword and board, nice nice saves), and healing in there to boot. You can most likely pick a ranged cantrip for dealing with pesky runners/fliers/etc. I have to admit that this concept resonates with me as well as this is a variant of my first ever 3.0 character (a half-dragon sorcadin before LA even existed...), and I have a pretty nice hand painted mini for it already.

Element Choice: Fire could work as an element (Searing smite for some boosted recurring fire damage of a failed save? in addition to the other fire damage options), but thunder gives a damage boost to some battlefield control effects (thunderous smite, thunderwave). Lightning Element paired with Shocking Grasp Cantrip is also respectable in the right situation (in particular with War Caster as a reaction, though you can't smite off of it). Also, does anyone else find it annoying that the pally smite spells cost you both concentration AND bonus action?

Needed / Useful Feats: Warcaster is a must to pickup at some point otherwise most of the build simply doesn't function. Polearm Master -> Sentinel , possibly with a quarterstaff + shield. Shield Master for defensive purposes and more BFC.

Variant: You COULD probably make this work as a dex paladin as well keeping strength at 13, making use of draconic resilience's AC option, running a rapier, and picking up the defensive duelist feat. that would diminish the value of taking shield master and preclude polearm master, ironically since they are competing for bonus actions.

Build: Paladin 6 / Death Domain Cleric 6 (if this is even thematically possible)
Concept: Our DM is allowing a shared pool for channel divinity. So... my main draws here are
1) also a huge pool of spells to pull smites from
2) 3 uses of channel divinity with 2 nice damage options (advantage generation or +17 damage on a successful hit). The fact that the channel divinity uses refresh on a short or long rest give the build a bit more sustainability than the sorcerer variant, at the cost of being a bit mad by introducing Wisdom to the mix. Also note that touch of death just requires a melee attack, not a melee weapon attack, which opens up a bit more flexibility in it's application.
3) lol paladin with animate dead... lol. Your corpse serving the cause of "justice" is definitely it's own form of vengence. Also, if we ever convert to an E7 game, there is built in synergy with Oathbreaker Paladin and Animate Dead =)
4) "semi-twinned unresistable" chill touch isn't a terrible ranged cantrip option, and having access to vampiric touch in a pinch could also come in handy.
5) I hear Guidance is an ok cantrip
6) Making a build MAD by forcing Wisdom into it probably isn't the worst thing in the world
Overall, I like this concept too and I like the slightly increased staying power. But the cleric list already overlapped a lot from what you get from paladin, so you are trading some versatility away. But the uber dark cliche'd brooding "you ruined my life, I was weened on death and seek vengence" concept sadly still appeals to me.

Needed / Useful Feats: Yup, Warcaster is a requirement again. Possibly Polearm Master -> Sentinel again. This build is too mad to try and go dex paladin (at least until the late late late game). Resilience (Constitution)

Build: Paladin 6 / Warlock (Fiendish Tomelock) 3 + Assassin Rogue 3
Concept: Yeah. This build is officially off the rails a bit. If you haven't noticed, I am enamored with the Gish concept and the paladin's Aura of Protection. Ideas here:
1) Short rest refresh mechanic for 2 2nd Level Warlock Spell slots aren't as good as the 2 full caster builds above for smiting but they do still add a bit of sustain to the build.
2) 2d6 Sneak attack damage ALSO adds sustain and pairs well with Oath of Vengence channel divinity option
3) If you somehow land the surprise round it's gonna hurt like heck between smites/SA.
4) Cunning Action makes you sticky and mobile and scary.
5) I'd personally do silly things like take eldrich blast + repelling blast + vine whip cantrip and make a terrible mess of things with battlefield control as needed (though the cantrips have no synergy with smite or SA unfortunately).
6) Coupling Expertise with Athleticism makes shield master even better (or makes up for the fact that you are MAD) and now you NEED the advantage knocking someone prone with a shield grants.
7) The warlock and rogue archtype options are a bit flexible but I really like the extra cantrips
8) Missing out on a 4th level feat or stat boost does hurt, but LONG term hurts less in E6 since you are theoretically unbounded in the # of feats and stat boosts you COULD accumulate. How that affects short term playability of the build remains to be seen.
This build is something of a swiss army knife of the 3 paladin builds, and will lean heavily on cunning action and the book of shadows cantrips to add some variety to the gameplay, while the build also has some significant nova plays (that you have to budget carefully because of the low # of spell slots). It's also a bit more skill focused obviously. The invocations are some set of agonizing blast/repelling blast/book of ancient secrets/MAYBE devil's sight or mask of many faces. Note, it MAY be worth it to take gauntlet's of ogre power as the uncommon item for this build to help with the stat allocations.

Feats: One more time for Warcaster... It's still a gish. Defensive Duelist since you are already in Dex. Shield Master. Resilience (Constitution)

Ok. That's all I can brain dump this evening. I hope we can pull others into this completely random variant format of D&D 5E!

[sambojin]

I will read through the 5e E6 gestalt ideas soon, but for now I'm just going to assume that both sides get what they normally would get with multiclassing, all added together.

The pally/lock+assassin looks fun. Depends on the party, but magehand-rogue might be fun, or swashbuckler. Neither needs as much support from party members, or reliance on surprise. Mage hand gives another slot or two to smite off, but competes for actions if you want to play with your hand. Swash removes the big alpha strike, but does give you almost guaranteed SA.

Have you thought of Bard as a potential second class? Full spellcasting, expertise on the stuff you do, useful inspiration die (that do compete for bonus actions, but do some nice things and last a while) and potentially cool spells. Just a Pally 6/Bard (Lore) 6 split gives you a bit of go for smite slots or other spell stuff. Options anyway.


Or Pally 6/Cleric (Life) 1+Druid (Moon) 2+Warlock (Fiend/Tome) 3? All the things. Great healing (goodest berries), plenty of smite spam, some ever present spells, lots of wildshape forms. Everything competes for every action, but you have lots of everything. Gishy (but not necessarily good). Be a birdman, for that caster-form movement, or MAD out the half-elf 16 array to St/Con/Char and just use wisdom spells as boosters/buffers/healers. There is no actual reason for a character to level like this, but I find it best to remove that from these sorts of discussions, because I can't possibly know what your gaming group considers legit.


Pally 6/Cleric (Light) 6 does give you a single damage or AoE thingy. Your choice. Sometimes killing everything a little bit in your God's name is as handy as killing one thing really well.

[Nunkuruji]

This is the path I've set us to journey on, largely due to the consensus that higher level effects and magic slow down the game to much at upper levels. On paper this seems to solve that problem, yet still provide breadth to characters.


Bear Totem Barbarian 6 // Champion Fighter 6: Crits. Reckless attack for advantage with increased 19-20 crit range. Bear Totem, as you accept you're going to get hit. 2-handed weapon. Preferably race with a bonus action natural attack. Martial Adept feat. Basic configuration to have bonus action attack option for more crits in addition to other tactical bonus action options.

Assassin Rogue 6 // Way of the Shadow Monk 6: Really straightforward set of abilities for... assassinating

Circle of the Moon Druid 6 // Bear Totem Barbarian 6: Sponge Tank.

Circle of the Moon Druid 6 // Shadow or Open Hand Monk 6: Ki ability use under Wild Shape. Four Elements Ki are worded as spell casting, so unlikely usable under Wild Shape. Though kind of leave stunning strike on the table since it notes melee weapon attack; similarly Paladin smite. Granted, Ape varieties, if you want to go down the Monkey King / Staff path.

[NumberKruncher]

The only problem I see with character #1 is you mention having CON proficiency, which means your first level is as a Sorcerer.  The HP difference is minor, but multiclassing in to the Paladin class only grants you medium armor proficiency, which is not optimal.

Just my 2 CP.

[Evil_Dexter]

Lots of N&K Names in this thread now...

NumberKruncher, in this particular version of Gestalt our DM (Nunkuruji) is granting the save (and I think armor/weapon/skill but need to double check) proficiency of the 1st levels of BOTH sides of the gestalt. So, in the case of Paladin 6 (one side of gestalt) / Sorcerer 6 (the other side of Gestalt) you'll get:

- Best HP progression between the 2 sides, so in this case 6 instances of the Paladin's D10's, but you don't get hit points from the "other side" (with rare exception such as from a class ability)
- Save's from both sides (Wisdom/Charisma Saves from Pally and Constitution/Charisma (which is redundant and does nothing) from Sorcerer)
- 2 Skills from Paladin, 2 Skills for Sorcerer
- The combination of all spell slots from both sides into one big pool, so:
   8 1st level slots + 5 2nd level slots + 3 3rd level slots, which can be spent freely on Sorcerer or Paladin spells or smiting...
- etc etc etc.

Gestalt (which I have never played) is a high powered D&D variant, in this case limited by the 6th level cap placed on both sides.

[Gnomes2169]

If you and your DM wanted a more in-depth version of the gestalt system... *cough cough fishing for feedback, cough*

As for the builds, well...

Pure Pally/ sorc: I would actually think that you should go with a dex build here. Full plate (the best AC you can get with str)+shield is 20 AC... and a dragon sorc gets you 13+dex+shield, which by level 6 you could get up to 19 AC if your DM doesn't give you 2 ASI's as you level up. If your DM decides to give 2 ASI's, then you can get up to 20 dex for the exact same AC, attack and damage bonus as the str paladin while wearing no armor at all. That would over-all save you money, and keep your effectiveness at about the same level. However, if you do get 2 ASI's, I would recommend boosting Dex and Cha by 2 each, so that you can improve the effectiveness of both classes. If you only get 1 and go with a dex build, then improve your dexterity. It would be more flexible and useful over-all.Otherwise, this is a pretty good gestalt... If you got to higher levels, I would suggest oath of the ancients, given your largest worries will be other casters with such a build... but since your game is capped so low, then Devotion or Vengeance will be a better choice, given how long it takes Ancients to come online. Since the build is going with the half-elf, no level 1 feat is coming online... however, if you decide to grab a feat Warcaster is a definite must get. Otherwise, grabbing yourself Sentinel is the only other thing you should really want (quicken spell and other bonus action spells will be taking up your bonus action enough for you to safely ignore Polearm Master+quaterstaff).

Pally/ death cleric Seems like an oathbreaker paladin's wet dream as far as gestalt goes. Definitely viable once you hit level 5, and even viable before then due to being a paladin and the random goodies that come with the death domain. However, this is MAD as hell... and as an oathbreaker paladin, you definitely want to be in melee and have good cha. So here is my suggestion: Dump wis. Dump it good an hard. You have lay on hands for healing, and paladin spells/ smites for damage, all cleric is good for is extra umph on your melee attacks with channel divinity, buffing yourself and allies, and creating undead. For feats, well, as a paladin your shield can be your holy symbol if it is emblazoned with your god's crest. Same with a cleric. So you don't need to get Warcaster as much as a cleric, and since your spells will be more buff-based anyway, you won't have too many to spend on blowing fools up with spell attacks. For this build, Sentinel and Polearm Master both work wonders as far as feats go, so it's entirely your choice there.

Pally// Warlock/ assassin This one only requires the 3 stats of the sorcerer and gives some good pre-combat stealth and burst... but I'm still sort of iffy on it. Sure hex is nice, but you could use hunter's mark from a vengeance paladin instead, and the sorcerer will give you more slots over-all to play with, as well as higher AC and hp (which is a good get for any frontline character). I would personally take the sorc gestalt over this one, but the call is yours. This combo does require you to get Warcaster again if you go duelist+shield, and you are definitely only getting the 1 ASI, even if your DM decides to give you one per each side of your gestalt. For pact, I would think that blade would work wonders, especially on a vengeance or ancients paladin in need of a magic weapon, and for patrons, well, Vengeance can meld with Old Ones or Fiend rather well (sold their soul to stop a greater evil, and if going with fiend the paladin could very well go full oathbreaker), while ancients melds with the Archfey. Your choice on this one, really, but I still feel sorc (with the tanking options provided by the AC, HP and spells like shield) will be better over-all.

[Evil_Dexter]

Thanks everyone for the feedback so far, and Gnomes I'll definitely give your Gestalt rules a deeper read once time permits (you had me at shenanigans...)!

One thing to point out that's key for the discussion here for the Gestalt ruleset we are looking at is that you have to meet the multiclassing stat pre-reqs for essentially all classes you have. Meaning pally 6 / cleric 6 needs: Str 13/Cha 13/Wis 13. So, the pre-reqs can definitely be a barrier to "ease of use" in the early going for some of the combinations until you get deeper into feat/stat progression. So even in the case of attempting to dump wisdom for the pally / cleric that's just going to mean wisdom to 13 and stopping, which is still a burden on the starting array.

And to sambojin, I definitely have also given the Pally 6 / Lore Bard 6 some thought as well, and I do like the natural synergy there, particularly if I am wanting the build to be a bit more selfless, though having been playing the same cleric for our party for going on 4 years now I am ready to become a bit more selfish I think. =)

Some additional build stub ideas:
Build: Sorcerer (Favored Soul War Domain) 6 / Fighter 3 + Rogue 3 (some flexibility here on archtypes and even 3 vs. 4 levels of fighter or rogue)
Concept: Crossbow Sorcerer? Feat heavy (pickup Crossbow Sniper, Warcaster, Sharpshooter), but SAD (Dex + Cha). May need to work out an advantage generation mechanic, but you have a crossbow buff via Divine Favor (or Crusader Mantle for party buffing), and have both quicken spell + action surge (together or independently) available for nova capabilities. Options like: Initial Round Divine Favor + Action Surge (4 Crossbow Bolts), Second Round: 2 Crossbow bolts + Quickened Spell (either a cantrip or something heavier), etc etc. Conservative Combats are probably just divine favor + crossbowing (2 bolts first round, 3 bolts subsequent rounds), with sneak attack damage thrown in. Some utility from spells and Rogue. Warlock Dip (1 level? and only go fighter 2) for Hex might be worth it in some scenarios.

Build: Sorcerer (archtype doesn't really matter, dragon fire sorc for scorching rays of death if you must) 6 / Warlock 4 / Fighter 2
Concept: Stealing from other threads on the board to some degree, the "mostly" cantrip firing nova caster. 6d10+6xCha mod eldrich blasts if you dump action surge + quicken spell. 4d10+4xCha Eldrich Blasts + 8d6+4xCha Mod Scorching Ray damage in the most egregious case of "I want it dead right this second" if you go all in on fire damage. Melf's Minute Meteor's is also 6 instances of 2d6(+Cha for fire sorcerer) that you can distribute over time, and probably worth considering for spreading the damage out and making your spells/day last a little farther.

Build(s): Various Necro-manager combinations
- Wizard 6 (necromancer) / Sorcerer 6 (war domain) or - Animate of lot of skeletons and buff them. LOTS of spells and lots of options, and the dead hit hard IF they can hit.
- Cleric 6 (Any, but Death is Thematic, War Carries Crusader Mantle) / Any Full Caster 6 (more of the same)
- Sorcererer (Death Domain) / Bard (Lore) 6 (take Crusader Mantle) (and still more of the same)

Basically any combination of
1) A Class that can get you Animate Dead -> Wizard, Cleric, Lore Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer (Favored Soul Death Domain)
2) A Class that can get ahold of a good buff that can affect a large # of targets, Crusader mantle being first on my mind but not necessarily the only (or best) option -> Cleric (War Domain), Lore Bard, Sorcerer (Favored Soul War Domain)

Technically Lore Bard and War Cleric can fill both roles, but if both sides have access to 3rd level spells you get a lot more mileage out of your big buff in the course of a day.

Another good minionmancer spell that only the bard and druid can get to is conjure animals but it competes for the concentration slot. However, you are able to direct your animated dead army with a bonus action (and they continue to do what you said until task is completed) and the animals are directed as a free action.

Truth be told this isn't as much of a set of builds as a very basic framework if you want to build a minion army from in this format. Tons of options with a lot of room for flexibility/flavor in what else you do with the character, though obviously the damage boost from Necromancer Wizards is big.

[sambojin]

Stubbier than a stubby thing:

Super manager 0.1a

Cleric (Death)6//Druid 6
Undead and fey armies at your disposal with animate dead and conjure animals. Powerful early on, then probably tapers off a bit. Flood the theatre or board with bodies, give some commands, then go off and make a nice cup of tea. Gives DMs headaches and makes sure that AoE will always get thrown around to cull the herd. Easy stats though.


Mr lvl 2 spell.

Warlock 3+ Sorc 3//Cleric 3+Druid 3
Just lots of slots, all firing off lvl1/2 spells. Not good at all, but between all the various archetypes and options available, might be fairly versatile. But probably not.


Oh, and for selfishness reasons, it might be worthwhile looking for things that key off character level (instead of spell level) for a few power options, even if it's healing. In E6, would things like a life cleric's channel divinity keep scaling past 6? At 10th pseudo-level, are you looking at 10x5 healing, or is it still stuck at 6x5? Does anything scale past level 6? Otherwise, low level power combos are where it's at (hex+eb, life/druid goodest berries, etc).

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Lore Bard 6 is worth having, especially to snag Paladin
and Ranger spells, that otherwise would be off limits.
(and there's almost no need for Valor Bard past 3)

Paladin 6 contrasts sharply with 3rd level pally spells
available to Lore only.  Same to be said about Ranger.

Fighter 3 caps that class too.  UA Ranger 2 Spell-less
is a decent snag of the BM stuff.  FiEK 3 is pretty much
fodder for a 1/day Improved Mage Hand repeater Scroll.
(and hard pressed to need to use it, that once a day)

[Evil_Dexter]

Hadn't gone back to see spell-less ranger had picked up battlemaster goodies at 2nd level. That is very nice dip.

As for cherry picking primarily 3rd level spells off the Pally / Ranger lists, might as well walk those and see what we have.
Pally Specific 3rd Level Spells
Aura of Vitality (if you are into all that efficient healing crap, this is nice...)
Blinding Smite (can't get it anywhere else at least, and the blind + smite effect isn't necessarily bad)
Crusader Mantle (I do still like this one too)
Elemental Weapon (Hmmm... on a dragon sorcerer this IS one heck of a buff, just not FOR the sorcerer himself)

Ranger Specific 3rd Level Spells
Conjure Barrage  (the 60' cone is a nice area, but feels kinda meh)
Lightning Arrow (I'm finding a hard time understanding why I'd take this instead of... fireball or lightning bolt, but it is  thematic for an archer...)

Of the 3rd level "can't get um anywhere else besides Lore Bard" options from the Pally/Ranger lists, I am definitely a bigger fan of the Pally choices.