Author Topic: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?  (Read 7817 times)

Offline stanprollyright

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What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« on: September 04, 2015, 09:28:20 PM »
Ok. I get it. Batman has a utility belt. He's always got the right tool for the job, just like a Wizard. But any further than that, the metaphor breaks down. Batman is obviously mundane. He punches things with his fists and throws bat-shaped shurikens. He is one of the few superheros that explicitly wears armor and has a belt full of technological items. I know what you're thinking. "But Stan," you say, "Magic is a metaphor for technology and Batman always has the right technological solution." And you'd be right. But Batman is a master detective who sneaks, climbs, jumps, tumbles, mixes it up in melee, and uses technology a la Use Magic Device. Technology that he doesn't make himself. Batman is some kind of Rogue/Monk/Ninja thing. His strengths are in his skills. And the Monk/Ninja thing makes sense with his background, having trained in East Asia under R'as al Ghul and his Ninja assassins. "What about armor?" you ask, and I tell you that a monk or ninja is still the same with armor, they just don't get the AC bonuses or speed buffs. And there are ACFs and Archetypes that allow monks and ninjas to wear armor. Far easier than taking armor proficiency and Arcane Armor Training on top of Improved Unarmed and every combat maneuver feat that Batman obviously has.

So What Superhero best represents a Wizard?
Well, my first thought would be Superman because he's absurdly powerful, as are Wizards. But you know who else is absurdly powerful? Sorcerers. And Sorcerers only have a few Superpowers, just like Superman, whose powers are inborn and unchangeable. Lots of power, limited versatility. His one weakness? Kryptonite, aka DC's Antimagic Field. Superman is also not super smart, and thus not intelligence-based. Lots of bad guys manage to trick Superman quite easily, because fighting him is impossible, but tricking him isn't any harder that tricking a normal guy.

If we cross the DC/Marvel divide we come across another hero who might be an accurate representation of a Wizard. The Hulk. Nah, just kidding, he's a straight Barbarian. I'm talking about Iron Man.  Yes, Tony Stark is mundane. But we've already established that magic is a simple metaphor for technology, and Tony Stark has a ton of tech at his fingertips. And he's a genius (aka high intelligence) who, unlike Batman, makes his own tech.  "But wizards don't wear armor!" you say. Except the Iron Man suit isn't really a suit of armor. It's a mobile weapons platform with its own capabilities, far exceeding a mundane suit of armor. It has scanners and its own intelligence and several different types of weapons as well as physical strength and imperviousness and flight capabilities. In our metaphor, it's spell armor. It takes Tony a couple rounds to get the armor on, like it takes a Wizard a few rounds to buff himself into a God. It's Tony's spellbook. Tony without his Iron Man suit is basically the same as a Wizard with no spellbook: a really smart mundane guy. The Iron Man suit is also subject to EMPs, lightning strikes, and other forms of Marvel Antimagic, but Sorcerer Superman never has to worry about not having his superpowers because they're in the other room. There is one last, defining thing that makes Iron Man the true representation of a Wizard.  Superman is stuck with what powers he already has because they're inborn. Batman is limited to what he can accomplish with his body and whatever items he has available. Iron Man, however, is constantly tweaking and redesigning his suit, giving it new capabilities. When his suit can't handle something he goes home and fixes it until it can, much like learning and preparing new spells.

Superman is, by default, the strongest and most OP superhero. Batman is my favorite for a number of reasons. But Iron Man is the closest approximation to a D&D Wizard.
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Offline altpersona

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2015, 09:46:32 PM »
you do know batman beats superman right?

all the stuff the monk ninja thing does, batman does. batmans 'worst spell' makes him a 'high level' fighter. *correction, Transformation gives you full BAB.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 09:59:14 PM by altpersona »
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Offline Solo

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2015, 09:52:26 PM »
I thought that the Artificer was Iron Man?
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2015, 10:56:11 PM »
I thought that the Artificer was Iron Man?

That's actually better, but Artificers are only in one setting of one edition that I know of, whereas Wizard is a staple.

you do know batman beats superman right?

all the stuff the monk ninja thing does, batman does. batmans 'worst spell' makes him a 'high level' fighter. *correction, Transformation gives you full BAB.

Yep. He beats Superman. Multiple times. With Kryptonite.

Batman doesn't have that kind of Achilles' Heel. Take away Batman's gadgets and armor and he's still muthafuggin Batman. Batman is not God. He doesn't have superpowers. He's got a ton of skillpoints, he fights with his fists, he trips, disarms, grapples, throws shurikens, and uses magical/technological devices. In 3.5 I'd make him an Aescetic Rogue or Unarmed Swordsage. In PF he'd be a Ninja/Brawler. Gestalt would be better.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2015, 10:40:52 AM »
Ok. I get it. Batman has a utility belt. He's always got the right tool for the job, just like a Wizard. But any further than that, the metaphor breaks down.
Yeahee someone finally said it. +1'ed.

Offline Argent Fatalis

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2015, 01:34:31 PM »
Ok. I get it. Batman has a utility belt. He's always got the right tool for the job, just like a Wizard. But any further than that, the metaphor breaks down.
Yeahee someone finally said it. +1'ed.

Having not been in the domain of Dungeons and Dragons - let alone 3.5e optimization - until the past couple of years, this is more or less the reason I've seen for calling wizards Batman; it has very little to do with the superhero comparisons themselves most of the time and more how the classes solve their problems through their class features.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2015, 01:51:33 PM »
There is a bunch of omnitool style heroes (and D&D classes) and Dr Strange does the same thing plus hes an actual wizard to boot. Through Dr Doom is probably more fitting.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2015, 01:00:32 PM »
Ok. I get it. Batman has a utility belt. He's always got the right tool for the job, just like a Wizard. But any further than that, the metaphor breaks down.
Yeahee someone finally said it. +1'ed.

Yes!  So fucking sick of the batman worship!  He's got NOTHING on a D&D wizard.

Really not sure what a good rep of a wizard is in media, but Iron Man is definitely an improvement over Batman.  I'm not too versed on comic books, and dislike the uber-powered crap that would likely best model a wizard, so can't make any suggestions.  It'd ideally be a smart character that is actually capable of bending the laws of the universe to his or her will (with restrictions/limitations, but still).

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2015, 03:16:40 PM »
Really not sure what a good rep of a wizard is in media, but Iron Man is definitely an improvement over Batman.  I'm not too versed on comic books, and dislike the uber-powered crap that would likely best model a wizard, so can't make any suggestions.  It'd ideally be a smart character that is actually capable of bending the laws of the universe to his or her will (with restrictions/limitations, but still).

If we're expanding the boundaries to all of pop culture and not just superheroes...maybe Dr. Who?
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Offline ketaro

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2015, 04:06:07 PM »
If we're expanding the boundaries to all of pop culture and not just superheroes...maybe Dr. Who?

Really more of a diplomancer(bard) with some insane rogue-ish charm  :rolleyes

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2015, 04:24:30 PM »
I could see Dr. Who being a Bard, maybe Tenacious Expert Human that reincarnated as a Human (+3 cha!).

I submit that a D&D Wizard is Dr. Doom through. Doom is a highly intelligent spellcaster / scientist. He's summoned demons, emulated other being's powers, Magic Jars into other people, uses Simulacrums (doombots) when he might lose so he can fight another day, he uses his enchanted gear & spells to become a powerful psychical combatant, and on some iterations Victor has become a full on Christianity-style God capable of everything, until he grew bored of it. Kind of like a TO Wizard is boring :p

Doom fails when his ego overlooks something, how often has that happened to you as a Wizard?
The goblin attacks you. So what, I have nigh unstoppable power! *rolls* vorpel hit, you're head pops free of your body. Son of a...
or Oops I ran out of Spells today.  :lol
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 04:27:26 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2015, 04:37:25 PM »
I don't know much about Dr. Doom, but from your description that makes sense. More villains than heroes seem to have Wizardly powers anyway, because being smart and OP is a villainous schtick compared to the plucky mundane heroes we're supposed to root for. In fact, I've never played a good-aligned Wizard :p

I'm not a Dr. Who fan, so y'all are probably right. I mean, he does transcend time and space, but that's more the TARDIS than him.
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Offline nijineko

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2015, 05:16:37 PM »
i tend to think of d&d wizards as the genie of the lamp. all that cosmic power, but they still have that one weakness they all seem to overlook.

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2015, 05:46:19 PM »
Itty bitty living space?
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2015, 06:29:26 PM »
I don't know much about Dr. Doom, but from your description that makes sense.
Death Battle is known for botching characters and it's biaist pre-picked winners & research but if you're totally clueless check out Darth Vader vs Doctor Doom (intro @06:24) to get at least an idea of what he has done.

lmao about 9 minutes in they start talking about Doom's usage of Shrink Item. ;)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 06:33:56 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline nijineko

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2015, 12:07:05 AM »
Itty bitty living space?

only on the outside, my friend, only on the outside.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2015, 11:14:51 AM »
I submit that a D&D Wizard is Dr. Doom through. Doom is a highly intelligent spellcaster / scientist. He's summoned demons, emulated other being's powers, Magic Jars into other people, uses Simulacrums (doombots) when he might lose so he can fight another day, he uses his enchanted gear & spells to become a powerful psychical combatant, and on some iterations Victor has become a full on Christianity-style God capable of everything, until he grew bored of it. Kind of like a TO Wizard is boring :p

Doom fails when his ego overlooks something, how often has that happened to you as a Wizard?
The goblin attacks you. So what, I have nigh unstoppable power! *rolls* vorpel hit, you're head pops free of your body. Son of a...
or Oops I ran out of Spells today.  :lol
There is something a little circular about using a wizard to define a wizard, though ...

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2015, 04:16:19 PM »
historically, Logic Ninja did the guide to being batman in '06 iirc.
Divinate up the toolkit you need.

But yeah, 3e Wizard is kinda a "Batman always wins" version of Dr Strange.
Strange is more like a 'Lock/Binder++, with various items or artifacts.
Though he's about accurate for Wizard power levels.
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Offline nijineko

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2015, 03:33:22 PM »
my "wizards" are all psionicists, anyway.



... come to think of it, pretty much all my characters these days are psionic in some way or another. =P

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: What's with the "Batman Wizard" thing?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2015, 05:23:34 PM »
Right.
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use all those arcane 1s over and over,
and have a talking utility belt thingie.

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