Unlimited Bone Works, a Discussion Thread about Skeletons and Zombies

[Garryl]

The T-Rex is even worse than you think it is because the 3d6 damage on the bite attack is because it has the improved natural attack feat which it loses as a skeleton or zombie.

Thanks. I didn't even think about monsters losing INA.

Fun fact: The Dire Tiger has INA (claw). Its claw deals 2d4 damage. There is no base damage that improves to 2d4.

[Garryl]

Main monster listings in the Monster Manual are complete. Now onto animals and vermin.

[Garryl]

Monster Manual is complete. Now I just need to sort things by HD and rate them. Joy.

[Nanshork]

Monster Manual is complete. Now I just need to sort things by HD and rate them. Joy.

Why do you need to sort by HD when the tables are sortable?

[Garryl]

Can anyone think of a reason that you'd want the absolute maximum number of HIT POINTS of undead controlled, discounting all other factors? The best bet I've found are zombies of 1/4 HD creatures (toads, bats, rats, etc.). They have 1/2 HD, which means 4-9 hp apiece (6 hp using average values per HD), and that's before applying Desecrate and other hp boosters.

Monster Manual is complete. Now I just need to sort things by HD and rate them. Joy.

Why do you need to sort by HD when the tables are sortable?

For starters, the tables are too big to fit into a single post, so they monsters have to be split into multiple posts.

Second, so I can get a sense of what stats are available by HD, and use that to rate everything.

[Garryl]

I have a Google sheet with the stats all in one table. I'm going through trying to rate everything. So far I've covered 1/4 HD, 1/2 HD, and 1 HD creatures.

Edit: Making good headway into the higher Hit Dice. If anybody wants to weight in, please do.

[snakeman830]

FYI, Zombies don't get immunity to Cold.  That's a Skeleton only thing.

Also, the bits about Hydras are actually defined by the rules as "natural abilities."  These are abilities inherent in the form (don't ask how) and thus are retained no matter what templates get applied or how that form is assumed (for shapeshifiting abilities).  Skeleton template specifies that winged flight (a natural ability) is lost, so that overrides the general rules.

As far as how the heads all attack, it's probably easier to think of each head getting its own separate action when attacking (although they do all have to take the same kind of action).  After all, they do have a separate brain in each head.  When you look at it that way instead, it becomes a piece of cake to adjucate rules.

Now, one thing that doesn't make sense is the werewolf skeletons in Libris Mortis, since, as you point out, shapechangers revert to their natural forms upon death.

[Garryl]

Thanks. Cold thing fixed.

[snakeman830]

I did have a couple edits in there.  I apologize.

Also, why do no Necromancy guides I see mention the Deadwalker's Ring from Complete Mage?  It gives the important part of Desecrate (+2HP/HD, doesn't stack with Desecrate) in a dirt cheap ring.  The daily use limit doesn't even really matter, because how often will you cast Animate Dead even three times in one day?  Usually it's no more than once!

[Garryl]

I did have a couple edits in there.  I apologize.

Not a problem.

Also, why do no Necromancy guides I see mention the Deadwalker's Ring from Complete Mage?  It gives the important part of Desecrate (+2HP/HD, doesn't stack with Desecrate) in a dirt cheap ring.  The daily use limit doesn't even really matter, because how often will you cast Animate Dead even three times in one day?  Usually it's no more than once!

That's a nice ring. At 4k gp, it's even cheaper than a Ring of Desecration, Lesser, and doesn't require you to be working at a permanent unholy shrine for the full bonus. The down side is that you need to wear it for 24 hours beforehand, so it eats up a ring slot.

Also, the bits about Hydras are actually defined by the rules as "natural abilities."  These are abilities inherent in the form (don't ask how) and thus are retained no matter what templates get applied or how that form is assumed (for shapeshifiting abilities).  Skeleton template specifies that winged flight (a natural ability) is lost, so that overrides the general rules.

As far as how the heads all attack, it's probably easier to think of each head getting its own separate action when attacking (although they do all have to take the same kind of action).  After all, they do have a separate brain in each head.  When you look at it that way instead, it becomes a piece of cake to adjucate rules.

It might be simpler to think about it that way, but that's not actually what it is. The ability doesn't actually explain how it interacts with the action economy, which is vital when dealing with another ability (Single Actions Only) that interacts with actions.

[snakeman830]

Also, the bits about Hydras are actually defined by the rules as "natural abilities."  These are abilities inherent in the form (don't ask how) and thus are retained no matter what templates get applied or how that form is assumed (for shapeshifiting abilities).  Skeleton template specifies that winged flight (a natural ability) is lost, so that overrides the general rules.

As far as how the heads all attack, it's probably easier to think of each head getting its own separate action when attacking (although they do all have to take the same kind of action).  After all, they do have a separate brain in each head.  When you look at it that way instead, it becomes a piece of cake to adjucate rules.

It might be simpler to think about it that way, but that's not actually what it is. The ability doesn't actually explain how it interacts with the action economy, which is vital when dealing with another ability (Single Actions Only) that interacts with actions.

Umm, it's quite explicit.  A Hydra can attack with all of its heads at no penalty as a standard action or on a charge.  That is extremely explicit on how it interacts with the action economy.

[Garryl]

Also, the bits about Hydras are actually defined by the rules as "natural abilities."  These are abilities inherent in the form (don't ask how) and thus are retained no matter what templates get applied or how that form is assumed (for shapeshifiting abilities).  Skeleton template specifies that winged flight (a natural ability) is lost, so that overrides the general rules.

As far as how the heads all attack, it's probably easier to think of each head getting its own separate action when attacking (although they do all have to take the same kind of action).  After all, they do have a separate brain in each head.  When you look at it that way instead, it becomes a piece of cake to adjucate rules.

It might be simpler to think about it that way, but that's not actually what it is. The ability doesn't actually explain how it interacts with the action economy, which is vital when dealing with another ability (Single Actions Only) that interacts with actions.

Umm, it's quite explicit.  A Hydra can attack with all of its heads at no penalty as a standard action or on a charge.  That is extremely explicit on how it interacts with the action economy.

Not quite. It doesn't say "as a standard action", just that it can attack with them all even if it moves.

Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

We can't even use a fallback because natural abilities don't even have a default action type, unlike extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities (standard).

[kitep]

.

[snakeman830]

Also, the bits about Hydras are actually defined by the rules as "natural abilities."  These are abilities inherent in the form (don't ask how) and thus are retained no matter what templates get applied or how that form is assumed (for shapeshifiting abilities).  Skeleton template specifies that winged flight (a natural ability) is lost, so that overrides the general rules.

As far as how the heads all attack, it's probably easier to think of each head getting its own separate action when attacking (although they do all have to take the same kind of action).  After all, they do have a separate brain in each head.  When you look at it that way instead, it becomes a piece of cake to adjucate rules.

It might be simpler to think about it that way, but that's not actually what it is. The ability doesn't actually explain how it interacts with the action economy, which is vital when dealing with another ability (Single Actions Only) that interacts with actions.

Umm, it's quite explicit.  A Hydra can attack with all of its heads at no penalty as a standard action or on a charge.  That is extremely explicit on how it interacts with the action economy.

Not quite. It doesn't say "as a standard action", just that it can attack with them all even if it moves.

Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

We can't even use a fallback because natural abilities don't even have a default action type, unlike extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities (standard).

Well, how else would it attack with them all even if it moves?

You really are making it more difficult than it has to be.  It's a natural ability of Hydras to be able to attack with all of their heads at no penalty whenever they take an attack action.  Normally, I would say this isn't the case on AoO's, but they explicitly have that ability as well (at least if they have the Combat Reflexes feat). 

[Garryl]

Note to self: Flying creatures with claw or talon attacks can perform diving charges for double damage. Clumsy flight makes it hard for zombies to line that up sometimes, but it can be done and that can help boost their damage.

Well, how else would it attack with them all even if it moves?

Any number of ways.

- It could be a free action (or no action at all) for the hydra to make its attacks if it's already done some movement.
- The attacks could be part of the move action.
- It could be a special full-round action to both move and make its attacks.
- The hydra could get a bonus standard action each round for each head beyond the first whenever it moves or charges, usable only to make an attack with that head.

That's just off the top of my head.

You really are making it more difficult than it has to be.  It's a natural ability of Hydras to be able to attack with all of their heads at no penalty whenever they take an attack action.  Normally, I would say this isn't the case on AoO's, but they explicitly have that ability as well (at least if they have the Combat Reflexes feat).

That's not supported by what the text actually says. It says that they can make multiple attacks even if they move or charge. That's the part that's special (they're all primary natural attacks, so the default case is already that it can attack with them all at no penalty in a full attack), and that's the only two cases it addresses. Can a hydra that neither moves nor charges make multiple attacks as a standard action (maybe it's staggered and immobilized, if you want a situation where it would come up)? You're arguing that it can, but the actual entry doesn't address that at all.

If you have anything from WotC addressing hydra attacks in 3.5 (errata, Rules Compendium, FAQ, etc.), I'm all ears. Until then, I'm stepping away from this line of discussion.

[snakeman830]

Considering the Immoblized condition does not affect the actions you get (merely saying you can't use your move action to actually move), that is irrelevant.  Full attack regardless, then.

However, let me direct you to the important information to answer your question: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm

Look at the "attack" line.  Not "full attack" but "attack"  That is what you use when figuring out any non-full attack routine.  Black and white, they use all of their heads for any attack action.

More specific to our discussion, Libris Mortis, Page 172 has a 5 headed hydra zombie.  It's attack line?  "5 bites +7 melee (1d10+4) or slam +7 melee (2d6+4)."  Can't get much clearer than that as to how zombification effects hydras.

[Garryl]

However, let me direct you to the important information to answer your question: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm

Look at the "attack" line.  Not "full attack" but "attack"  That is what you use when figuring out any non-full attack routine.  Black and white, they use all of their heads for any attack action.

More specific to our discussion, Libris Mortis, Page 172 has a 5 headed hydra zombie.  It's attack line?  "5 bites +7 melee (1d10+4) or slam +7 melee (2d6+4)."  Can't get much clearer than that as to how zombification effects hydras.

Yeah, that's good enough for me.

I guess what it's saying there is that the hydra can just make one attack with each head like it's making a single attack with a natural weapon. Bleh, I'm still overthinking it.

Ffffft... I wish I saw that line earlier. I didn't even think to look at it.

[Nanshork]

I will say that I like the new sorting better than straight alphabetical.

[Garryl]

Alphabetical was largely for my own benefit, just to make sure I had everything catalogued and didn't miss anything going through the MM.

[Nanshork]

Alphabetical was largely for my own benefit, just to make sure I had everything catalogued and didn't miss anything going through the MM.

I figured, I just thought you'd want to hear something from me that wasn't a complaint.