words of creation and inspire courage

[Masakan]

I've heard constantly how one of bards biggest assets is inspire courage. Giving basically free damage accuracy to you and your team.
But i've also noticed that words of creation is basically in every build I've seen specializing in inspire courage, and for good reason as it feels like the returns you get without it are hardly worth it especially if you don't go pure bard.

Basically is inspire courage still effective without words of creation? or are you better off using inspire awe or something?

[Keldar]

You can still get +4 to hit and damage by 3rd level without WoC.  That's like upping everyone's Strength by 8.  (Or slap 4d6 damage on every attack, with use of Dragon Fire Inspiration.)  Yes, the relative value peaks at that level, but its always a large, dependable bonus to hit and damage for a comparatively small investment in resources and actions.  It takes a fairly high level spell to do similar to Inspire Courage, and you get all the uses you'll likely need in a day by 5th.  Its useful in every battle you'll ever engage in in your entire career.  Even with only 5 levels of Bard.  (IIRC, You can get to +5, without WoC, or high levels.)

Meanwhile Inspire Awe inflicts a modest status effect with outrageously common immunity, that is also quite easy to obtain.  So easy a Fighter can do it.  There are plenty of ways to accomplish the same that don't cost you a powerful ability like Inspire Courage.

[Masakan]

You can still get +4 to hit and damage by 3rd level without WoC.  That's like upping everyone's Strength by 8.  (Or slap 4d6 damage on every attack, with use of Dragon Fire Inspiration.)  Yes, the relative value peaks at that level, but its always a large, dependable bonus to hit and damage for a comparatively small investment in resources and actions.  It takes a fairly high level spell to do similar to Inspire Courage, and you get all the uses you'll likely need in a day by 5th.  Its useful in every battle you'll ever engage in in your entire career.  Even with only 5 levels of Bard.  (IIRC, You can get to +5, without WoC, or high levels.)

Meanwhile Inspire Awe inflicts a modest status effect with outrageously common immunity, that is also quite easy to obtain.  So easy a Fighter can do it.  There are plenty of ways to accomplish the same that don't cost you a powerful ability like Inspire Courage.

I assume your talking about inspirational boost, badge of valor, and assuming your dm will let you do it, swapping out inspire competence for song of the heart?

[SorO_Lost]

Don't forget Masterwork Instruments trade around a point of bonus however you desire. Typically you want attack, such as the Lute which decreases damage by -1 to increase attack by +1, since Dragonfire scales off the attack bonus only but if not you'll probably want damage. Also multiclass Bards will want the Vest of Legends (DMG2, 16k) which increases your effective level by +5 to determine bonuses.

Anyway, you can always PA an equal amount to the attack bonus obtained. Basically with no loss to accuracy you gain +3 to damage per point of Inspire's Bonus (+1 moral to dmg directly and +2 more per point of thf pa). Obviously slapping an x2 to anything is awesome, but just because you don't doesn't mean it's not useful.

[Tonymitsu]

I've heard constantly how one of bards biggest assets is inspire courage. Giving basically free damage accuracy to you and your team.
But i've also noticed that words of creation is basically in every build I've seen specializing in inspire courage, and for good reason as it feels like the returns you get without it are hardly worth it especially if you don't go pure bard.

Basically is inspire courage still effective without words of creation? or are you better off using inspire awe or something?

Just to further elaborate on what Keldar said: Most bard songs suck.

-Fascinate, in addition to being mind-affecting, requiring you to concentrate for the duration, AND allowing additional saves for any potential threat, it flat out does not work if your target is threatened or in danger in any way.

-Inspire Competence: Does not scale. it stays a flat +2 forever. Further, as it's a competence bonus it does not stack with magic items that boost skill checks.

-Suggestion: See Fascinate

-Song of Freedom: Are they serious with this? Break Enchantment is already on the bard's spell list. As a 4th level spell. Two levels sooner than this class feature.

-Inspire Heroics: At level 15, you have far better things to do on your turn than grant a single ally within 30 ft. a +4 morale bonus to saves and a +4 dodge bonus to AC

-Mass Suggestion: See Fascinate

The only two that you'll ever really, really want are Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness. The rest of the time you are trading the others away for much more useful effects.

For the clearest example of superiority, note that while Inspire Heroics only affects allies within 30 ft, Inspire Courage affects everyone that can hear the sound of your voice, regardless of distance.

And while the competence bonuses for Inspire Greatness are a little piddly (and also competence bonuses, which are common), granting two bonus HD is invaluable.

EDIT: Oh right, Countersong. Works only on spells and abilities with the sonic descriptor, and ones that are language dependent (Geas/Quest, Suggestion, Command). Note that it also only works on things that produce on-going effects, so you could not stop a Shout Spell or a Sonic Orb. And all it does is grant you a new save (so also ineffective against something like Blasphemy).

Quite possibly the most absurdly niche class feature in all of 3.5 D&D.

[Keldar]

I assume your talking about inspirational boost, badge of valor, and assuming your dm will let you do it, swapping out inspire competence for song of the heart?

Forgot about this thread.   Yes to all but the swap.  Just take the damn feat at 3rd, don't rely on bull to swap out a prerequisite.

[Masakan]

I've heard constantly how one of bards biggest assets is inspire courage. Giving basically free damage accuracy to you and your team.
But i've also noticed that words of creation is basically in every build I've seen specializing in inspire courage, and for good reason as it feels like the returns you get without it are hardly worth it especially if you don't go pure bard.

Basically is inspire courage still effective without words of creation? or are you better off using inspire awe or something?

Just to further elaborate on what Keldar said: Most bard songs suck.

-Fascinate, in addition to being mind-affecting, requiring you to concentrate for the duration, AND allowing additional saves for any potential threat, it flat out does not work if your target is threatened or in danger in any way.

-Inspire Competence: Does not scale. it stays a flat +2 forever. Further, as it's a competence bonus it does not stack with magic items that boost skill checks.

-Suggestion: See Fascinate

-Song of Freedom: Are they serious with this? Break Enchantment is already on the bard's spell list. As a 4th level spell. Two levels sooner than this class feature.

-Inspire Heroics: At level 15, you have far better things to do on your turn than grant a single ally within 30 ft. a +4 morale bonus to saves and a +4 dodge bonus to AC

-Mass Suggestion: See Fascinate

The only two that you'll ever really, really want are Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness. The rest of the time you are trading the others away for much more useful effects.

For the clearest example of superiority, note that while Inspire Heroics only affects allies within 30 ft, Inspire Courage affects everyone that can hear the sound of your voice, regardless of distance.

And while the competence bonuses for Inspire Greatness are a little piddly (and also competence bonuses, which are common), granting two bonus HD is invaluable.

EDIT: Oh right, Countersong. Works only on spells and abilities with the sonic descriptor, and ones that are language dependent (Geas/Quest, Suggestion, Command). Note that it also only works on things that produce on-going effects, so you could not stop a Shout Spell or a Sonic Orb. And all it does is grant you a new save (so also ineffective against something like Blasphemy).

Quite possibly the most absurdly niche class feature in all of 3.5 D&D.

Idk, as far as suggestion and facinate goes. I can think of a few out of combat uses for it. But i know I'm dealing with people who either A only really care about the combat aspect as far as optimization goes, or just falls under the camp of "Spells are the answer to all your problems" Despite the Fall of Netheril stating otherwise.