Author Topic: Is glibness overkill?  (Read 7977 times)

Offline Masakan

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Is glibness overkill?
« on: January 14, 2017, 07:11:17 PM »
When i first looked at this spell like everyone i thought it was broken in what you could do with it...but i go back now and i think its not only OP its flat out overkill.
If you were a person who was interested in bluffing anyway you would probably have enough in the skill where this would be unneccesary. And the only time it would be useful is in doing something like convincing the BBEG that he's actually a paragon of good, and no dm in their right mind would allow that unless they just wanted to see how much you could screw with everything. So its OP if allowed to do crazy things and overkill if not.

Is this accurate?

Offline IlPazzo

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2017, 07:26:02 PM »
Look, IRL you cannot convince someone of just anything, and it's not a matter of how convincing you are.
If you wanted to convince me that I am, dunno, Soro, it would take much more than a crazy high bluff check. It would take elaborate planification, weeks if not months of those crazy high bluff checks. It would take acting, putting me in some kind of truman show.

To me, the point of glibness is that you can convince anyone that you are absolutely honest in what you say. That doesn't mean the BBEG is gonna trust you if you told him he's good, he would just believe you are really convinced of that.

In a world with magic, that's strong and possibly unbalanced, but it's concievable. There are detect thoughts and similar, as a counterpart to crazy high bluff bonuses.

Offline altpersona

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2017, 07:29:55 PM »
So, did you just want to accounts two mess with people or for separate RP goals? was just being Soro not good enough?
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Offline Masakan

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2017, 07:37:34 PM »
Look, IRL you cannot convince someone of just anything, and it's not a matter of how convincing you are.
If you wanted to convince me that I am, dunno, Soro, it would take much more than a crazy high bluff check. It would take elaborate planification, weeks if not months of those crazy high bluff checks. It would take acting, putting me in some kind of truman show.

To me, the point of glibness is that you can convince anyone that you are absolutely honest in what you say. That doesn't mean the BBEG is gonna trust you if you told him he's good, he would just believe you are really convinced of that.

In a world with magic, that's strong and possibly unbalanced, but it's concievable. There are detect thoughts and similar, as a counterpart to crazy high bluff bonuses.

Oh ok that makes sense.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2017, 07:56:56 PM »
Bluff is one of the greatest skills in the game but it's not Suggestion.

Quote from: Bluff
Favorable and unfavorable circumstances weigh heavily on the outcome of a bluff. Two circumstances can weigh against you: The bluff is hard to believe, or the action that the target is asked to take goes against its self-interest, nature, personality, orders, or the like.
So there are two separate factors.
Quote from: Glibness
You gain a +30 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words.
And Glibness technically only tweaks one of those.

It's like no matter how much you tell an MP you are a Five-Star General, you're not getting on base without some ID or his commander to come down and say otherwise. You're better off using Disguise in conjunction with Bluff and pretend you are his commander :p

If you wanted to convince me that I am, dunno, Soro, it would take much more than a crazy high bluff check.
If I keep putting stuff like that in my posts they will never know I have two accounts here...

So, did you just want to accounts two mess with people or for separate RP goals? was just being Soro not good enough?
That's impossible, being SorO is good enough for everything.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 07:59:56 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Solo

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2017, 08:01:37 PM »
Bluff is one of the greatest skills in the game but it's not Suggestion.
That's where you're wrong, kiddo.
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Offline Masakan

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2017, 08:43:55 PM »
Bluff is one of the greatest skills in the game but it's not Suggestion.
That's where you're wrong, kiddo.

Oh shit...but even so it only lasts for 10 mins before the bbeg is like "HEY WAIT A MINUTE!"

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2017, 08:58:33 PM »
That's where you're wrong, kiddo.
Technically it's not, but even more unfortunately you failed your Sense Motive Check.

Skills don't auto fail on a Natural 1 and Glibness doesn't help using Bluff to instill a "suggestion". That +50 bonus to the opposing roll means that in all but the most extreme examples Bluff never actually reaches a level of being an inferior version of Suggestion.

Offline Masakan

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2017, 12:03:57 AM »
That's where you're wrong, kiddo.
Technically it's not, but even more unfortunately you failed your Sense Motive Check.

Skills don't auto fail on a Natural 1 and Glibness doesn't help using Bluff to instill a "suggestion". That +50 bonus to the opposing roll means that in all but the most extreme examples Bluff never actually reaches a level of being an inferior version of Suggestion.

Still it would be hilarious to see the guy about to kill us their we're his friends and let us go only to realize later he's been duped

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2017, 12:23:37 AM »
It's like no matter how much you tell an MP you are a Five-Star General, you're not getting on base without some ID or his commander to come down and say otherwise. You're better off using Disguise in conjunction with Bluff and pretend you are his commander :p
Or just skip all that and use Forgery, which can only be opposed by another Forgery check. :P I swear that is the most overlooked skill in the game.
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Offline Solo

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2017, 01:29:23 AM »
That's where you're wrong, kiddo.
Technically it's not, but even more unfortunately you failed your Sense Motive Check.

Skills don't auto fail on a Natural 1 and Glibness doesn't help using Bluff to instill a "suggestion". That +50 bonus to the opposing roll means that in all but the most extreme examples Bluff never actually reaches a level of being an inferior version of Suggestion.

Not sure where you're going with this. You said that Bluff isn't suggestion, I'm saying it has an epic skill use that's suggestion.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2017, 02:59:07 AM »
SorO is technically wrong to say that Bluff is not Suggestion (full stop); but that's not what he was intending to say.  Contextually, it seems pretty clear to me that he meant Glibness is not Suggestion.  You can't count the bonus from Glibness towards your Bluff check to instill a Suggestion. 

Back to topic, Glibness still might not be overkill.  It applies on checks to convince someone that you're speaking the truth, and RAW on Bluff is that a successful check makes someone react as you wish for one round or more.  You can't convince the BBEG that he's been in the wrong the whole time and should repent for his deeds, but you can make him hesitate long enough for your friends to get in to position.  That's a pretty significant advantage, and Glibness lasts long enough that you can pre-cast it well in advance. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Solo

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2017, 03:55:03 AM »
I will have you know that technically wrong is the best kind of wrong.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2017, 01:48:18 PM »
Did I typo a sentence again?
I will have you know that technically wrong is the best kind of wrong.
You know what, technically Bluff's "suggestion" isn't actually the Suggestion Spell, copying the effects != same thing.

So you're the best kind of wrong.  :P

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2017, 03:13:42 PM »
You can't count the bonus from Glibness towards your Bluff check to instill a Suggestion.
Why not?
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2017, 03:41:04 PM »
DM :  you rolled a Nat 1 on your 3.0e Sense Motive check

aDMg's non-tail related PC :    :huh SorO's avatar means Yin Yang and IlPazzo
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2017, 05:23:15 PM »
Why not?

Quote
Your speech becomes fluent and more believable. You gain a +30 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words. (This bonus doesn’t apply to other uses of the Bluff skill, such as feinting in combat, creating a diversion to hide, or communicating a hidden message via innuendo.)
I know you think there is a correlation (blue text), but Suggestion's effect is a full on order of obedience that has nothing to do with the honestly of it. Further, Glibness says it does not apply to any other usages of Bluff which includes shouting "hey look over there before it hits you" for the Diversion entry so there is no reason to believe it should include the three separate sub entries in the Epic Skill.

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Actually it don't. The three matching sections should be a dead giveaway. It's a triskelion.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2017, 06:33:37 PM »
You can't count the bonus from Glibness towards your Bluff check to instill a Suggestion.
Why not?

"Instill a Suggestion" is called out as separate usage of the Bluff skill.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Solo

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2017, 09:09:24 PM »
Did I typo a sentence again?
I will have you know that technically wrong is the best kind of wrong.
You know what, technically Bluff's "suggestion" isn't actually the Suggestion Spell, copying the effects != same thing.

So you're the best kind of wrong.  :P
No. No wrong. You're the wrong.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Is glibness overkill?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2017, 11:55:39 PM »
No. No wrong. You're the wrong.
No, *points* he's Mr. Wrong. And *points again* that's Mr. Doctor over there.