Author Topic: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage  (Read 640 times)

Offline RobbyPants

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Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« on: October 29, 2017, 01:24:16 PM »
Note: this class was made based on the cosmology I'm using for my campaign. One of the planes is the plane of dreams, which is known for having both time and space being very fluid. Because of this, the plane is especially suited for divination and teleportation magic. The plane also has a bunch of aberrations living on it. Teleporting more than a few hundred feet risks a chance of encountering one on the way to the destination, and any divination spell with a range greater than long needs to be cast from this plane to work.

That being said, I created this class to be a sort of dream/divination/teleportation/time mage. It will fulfill a role of a rogue/specialist caster.


Oneiromancer

“I told you that would happen.”

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An oneiromancer is an arcane caster who focuses on magic from the dream plain; mainly divination, teleportation, and dream magic. He is gifted at seeing a moment into the future and stepping briefly back in time to avoid calamity. His foresight makes him capable of dealing well-placed strikes and generally being in the right place at the right time.

The Oneiromancer   Hit Die: d8
Level  BAB  Fort  Ref  Will  Special
            Save  Save Save

________________________________________________________________________________
1      +0   +0    +2   +2    Focus, anticipation
2      +1   +0    +3   +3    Sneak attack +1d6, focused precision
3      +2   +1    +3   +3    Evasion, perform under pressure
4      +3   +1    +4   +4    Hop back
5      +3   +1    +4   +4    Improved meditation, uncanny dodge
6      +4   +2    +5   +5    Sneak attack +2d6, short hop
7      +5   +2    +5   +5    Glimpse of madness, penetrating perception
8      +6   +2    +6   +6    Improved focused precision, distant divinations
9      +6   +3    +6   +6    Improved uncanny dodge, improved short hop
10     +7   +3    +7   +7    Sneak attack +3d6, improved perform under pressure
11     +8   +3    +7   +7    Improved evasion
12     +9   +4    +8   +8    Improved teleportation
13     +9   +4    +8   +8    Improved hop back
14     +10  +4    +9   +9    Sneak attack +4d6
15     +11  +5    +9   +9    Improved distant divinations
16     +12  +5    +10  +10   Hijack teleportation
17     +12  +5    +10  +10   Supreme evasion
18     +13  +6    +11  +11   Sneak attack +5d6
19     +14  +6    +11  +11   Supreme short hop
20     +15  +6    +12  +12   Glimpse of the future
________________________________________________________________________________

Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier per level, x4 at 1st level.
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Any)(Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Class Features
Your class features focus on dreams, meditation, and the manipulation of space and time.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Oneiromancers are proficient with simple weapons, but not with armor or shields.

Spells: The oneiromancer is able to cast magical spells. At 1st level, he learns all 0-level spells on his spell list, and learns new spells of other levels based on the table below. Upon reaching 2nd level, and every level after that, the oneiromancer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, he "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. He may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level. To cast a spell, the oneiromancer needs to have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class of any spell cast by his is 10 + the spell's level + his Wisdom modifier.
   The oneiromancer does not prepare spells from slots like many other casters. Instead, he uses his internal focus (see below) to harness his magical abilities. This means that he cannot prepare or spontaneously cast spells with metamagic feats by using a higher spell slot.
   So long as he has at least one point of focus, he can cast a 0-level spell for free. he may cast his highest two levels  of spells known for two points of focus, and all other spells for one point. For example: a 7th level oneiromancer would cast his 3rd and 4th level spells for two points of focus, his 1st and 2nd spells for one point, and his 0-level spells for free.

Spells known:
Level  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9
_________________________________________
1      6   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
2      7   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
3      7   5   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
4      8   6   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
5      8   6   5   -   -   -   -   -   -
6      8   7   6   -   -   -   -   -   -
7      9   7   6   5   -   -   -   -   -
8      9   8   7   6   -   -   -   -   -
9      9   8   7   6   5   -   -   -   -
10     10  8   8   7   6   -   -   -   -
11     10  9   8   7   6   4   -   -   -
12     10  9   8   8   7   5   -   -   -
13     10  9   9   8   7   5   4   -   -
14     10  10  9   8   8   5   5   -   -
15     10  10  9   9   8   6   5   4   -
16     10  10  10  9   8   6   5   5   -
17     10  10  10  9   9   6   6   5   4
18     10  10  10  10  9   7   6   5   5
19     10  10  10  10  9   7   6   6   5
20     10  10  10  10  10  7   7   6   6
_________________________________________


Focus (Ex): An oneiromancer gains a number of points of focus equal to one third his level, plus his Wisdom bonus (minimum 1), plus two. He may attempt to regain a point of focus by making a DC 15 Concentration check as a full-round action. He gains one extra point of focus for each 5 points he exceeds the DC. He may alternately attempt a DC 20 Concentration check as a move action.
   Note that he may not regain focus when stopping time, such as with Temporal Acceleration or Time Stop.

Anticipation (Ex): So long as the oneiromancer has at least one point of focus, he can see a fraction of a second into the future. Because of this, he adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) as an insight bonus to his Armor Class. Every three levels, his insight bonus to AC increases by +1.
   He does not add this bonus any time he is immobilized or helpless. he loses this benefit any time he is wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying more than a light load.

Sneak Attack (Ex): At 2nd level, the oneiromancer's ability to see slightly into the future improves, allowing his to exploit openings in combat. He gains the ability to use sneak attack as a rogue (PHB 50), albeit at a slower progression.

Focused Precision (Ex): At 2nd level, the oneiromancer may spend a point of focus as a swift action. If so, the next opponent he strikes this round is denied their Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against his first attack.

Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level, so long as the oneiromancer has at least one point of focus, he gains the benefits of Evasion (PHB 50).

Perform Under Pressure (Ex): At 3rd level, the oneiromancer may spend a point of focus as an immediate action to take 10 on a skill check, even when he would not normally be able to. In addition, he gains a +2 competence bonus to the check.

Hop Back (Su): At 4th level the oneiromancer may spend a point of focus as a swift action to teleport to any square he was in this round or the last. He may not teleport to a square further away than Close range (25' + 5'/2 levels). This is a [teleportation] effect and does not require line of effect to his new location.

Improved Meditation (Ex): At 5th level,  the oneiromancer becomes better at traveling to Oneirus through meditation. He does not need to make a Wisdom check each hour to be able to wake up; he is always aware his mind is in Oneirus. Anyone meditating with the oneiromancer may also wake up at will, so long as they are within 30 feet of him in Oneirus and can communicate with him.
   If his mind is killed in Oneirus while meditating, he may immediately attempt a DC 20 Will save to wake up, avoiding having his body die and his mind become trapped.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level, so long as the oneiromancer has at least one point of focus, he gains the benefits of Uncanny Dodge (PHB 50).

Short Hop (Su): At 6th level, the oneiromancer may spend a point of focus to teleport to any location within Close range, as a standard action. This is a [teleportation] effect and does not require line of effect to his new location.

Glimpse of Madness (Ex): At 7th level, the oneiromancer no longer gains madness for spending time on Oneirus. In addition, any time he makes a Will save to avoid gaining madness, he gains a +4 bonus to the saving throw.

Penetrating Perception (Su): At 7th level, for a point of focus, the oneiromancer may make a Perception check as a full-round action to observe things past solid barriers. It costs one point of focus per round. This ability is blocked by any material and thickness that would block Detect Evil (PHB 218).

Improved Focused Precision (Ex): At 8th level, the oneiromancer's Focused Precision ability applied to all attacks he makes this round.

Distant Divinations (Ex): At 8th level, the range of the oneiromancer's Divination spells increase. Any spell with a range category (Close, Medium, or Long) increases up to the next category. A range that was originally Long increases to one mile per level. All other numeric ranges double. In addition, any Divination with a cone-shaped area becomes an emanation centered on the caster.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 9th level, so long as the oneiromancer has at least one point of focus, he gains the benefits of Improved Uncanny Dodge (PHB 50).

Improved Short Hop (Su): At 9th level, the oneiromancer may use his Short Hop ability as a move action. Alternately, he may teleport to any location up to Medium range (100' + 10'/level) as a standard action.

Improved Perform Under Pressure (Ex): At 10th level, the oneiromancer may use his Perform Under Pressure ability for saving throws as well as skill checks.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 11th level, so long as the oneiromancer has at least one point of focus, he gains the benefits of Improved Evasion (PHB 51).

Improved Teleportation (Ex): At 12th level, the oneiromancer becomes more skilled at teleporting. Any time he rolls a percentage chance to see if he is on target or if he encounters an aberration, he may roll twice and take either result.

Improved Hop Back (Su): At 13th level, when the oneiromancer uses his Hop Back ability, he may teleport to a square up Medium range away.

Improved Distant Divinations (Ex): At 15th level, the range of the oneiromancer's Divination spells increase even further. Each spell with a range category increases to the next category a second time, as described in Distant Divinations. A spell that's range was already increased to one mile per level is increased to one hundred miles per level. All other numeric ranges are multiplied by five, on top of the previous doubling (to ten times their original range).

Hijack Teleportation (Su): At 16th level, so long as the oneiromancer has at least one point of focus, he may affect the teleportation of others. He may direct any [teleportation] effect that starts or ends within Long range (400' + 40'/level) of himself to instead arrive at any location he chooses within Long range. Each affected creature may attempt a Will save (DC 10 + ½ the oneiromancer's level + his Wisdom modifier) to negate this effect. He must be aware of the teleportation to use this ability. This is a [teleportation] effect and does not require line of effect to the new location.

Supreme Evasion (Ex): At 17th level, whenever the oneiromancer makes a Reflex save to take half damage, he takes half damage on a natural 1 and no damage otherwise.

Supreme Short Hop (Su): At 19th level, when the oneiromancer uses his Short Hop ability, he may teleport to any location in Close range as a swift action, to Medium range as a move action, and to Long range as a standard action.

Glimpse of the Future (Ex): At 20th level, the oneiromancer and any allies within 30 feet gain an insight bonus to Initiative checks equal to his Wisdom bonus (if any).


Oneiromancer Spell List

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« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 06:28:58 AM by RobbyPants »
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Offline Maat Mons

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2017, 08:06:47 PM »
While I like the idea of casters having some at-will abilities, I think they ought to be more in line with reserve feats than cantrips. 

Likewise, I'm on board with allowing the non-at-will abilities to refresh more than once per day, but wouldn't it be simpler to have focus be a per-encounter resource? 

Instead of having different focus costs for different spell levels, would you consider having each spell scale with class level?  Sort of like how some low-level psionic powers can be on par with higher-level powers when you spend more power points, except without having to spend more points. 

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2017, 09:02:00 AM »
While I like the idea of casters having some at-will abilities, I think they ought to be more in line with reserve feats than cantrips. 
It's more to say those are things they can always do. They're tricks that I don't mind being spammed, and it's largely a low-level issue, anyway.


Likewise, I'm on board with allowing the non-at-will abilities to refresh more than once per day, but wouldn't it be simpler to have focus be a per-encounter resource? 
Effectively, it is. It's a lot like a warblade, who starts with everything, then has to occasionally refresh throughout the encounter.

I'm assuming you'll always start at full Focus. Also, all of the classes I've been working on in this last batch are meant to have a different resource mechanic than each other, so this is yet another variant. I didn't specify that in the OP, though.


Instead of having different focus costs for different spell levels, would you consider having each spell scale with class level?  Sort of like how some low-level psionic powers can be on par with higher-level powers when you spend more power points, except without having to spend more points.
I didn't want it to play out like psionic power points. I figure, you get a slow progression of more focus as you gain levels, but never a lot. So, I care about what is your highest spell level rather than what that spell level is. So, if you're 5th level, I'm counting your 3rd level spells the same way I'd count 7th level spells against a 13th level caster.

I don't like the psionic power points because the 17:1 ratio of 9th level to 1st level costs get pretty weird. I give a discount on lower level spells, but only to a 2:1 ratio. I figure when you're casting lower level stuff, I'm fine with that.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2017, 03:11:07 PM »
I see you don't have a skill list so I'm going to assume this goes along with your barbarian replacement that I reviewed.

From your description of the class I'd say use skills as beguiler for the people who use class skills.

"Once per level, he can swap a known spell for another off his spell list of the same level."  Do you mean sorcerer spell known swapping?  Because grammatically this sentence says that at one point of time while I'm a level two Oneiromancer I can swap a known spell and once I hit level three I gain another use of that ability to use while I am level three.

Things to spend Focus on besides spells, that's good.

Do Supernatural abilities provoke AoOs?  I can't remember.

Does Hop Back require line of effect?  I just ask because Short Hop explicitly doesn't.  Improved Short Hop also doesn't mention it.  Does teleportation normally require line of effect?  It doesn't as far as I'm aware.

Improved Meditation is part of your cosmology so I have no way to judge it.

I'm going to assume that in your cosmology sleep immunity is such a major deal that a racial feature for LA 0 races is worth gaining at level 15.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2017, 04:29:16 PM »
I see you don't have a skill list so I'm going to assume this goes along with your barbarian replacement that I reviewed.

From your description of the class I'd say use skills as beguiler for the people who use class skills.
That, or Rogue + Wizard - UMD.


"Once per level, he can swap a known spell for another off his spell list of the same level."  Do you mean sorcerer spell known swapping?  Because grammatically this sentence says that at one point of time while I'm a level two Oneiromancer I can swap a known spell and once I hit level three I gain another use of that ability to use while I am level three.
It should be when gaining a level. Basically, like the Sorcerer, but more often.


Things to spend Focus on besides spells, that's good.
That was the thought. Also, it gave me a way to easily limit some other things.


Do Supernatural abilities provoke AoOs?  I can't remember.
So far as I remember, no.


Does Hop Back require line of effect?  I just ask because Short Hop explicitly doesn't.  Improved Short Hop also doesn't mention it.  Does teleportation normally require line of effect?  It doesn't as far as I'm aware.
I suppose I could just tag them all as [teleportation] effects and be done with it.


Improved Meditation is part of your cosmology so I have no way to judge it.
The basic idea is they have a much safer time at using divinations than other casters. It's mostly a (fairly rare) setting concern. It hasn't even come up in the game I've been running for most of a year. People have made it to one of the other planes, twice.


I'm going to assume that in your cosmology sleep immunity is such a major deal that a racial feature for LA 0 races is worth gaining at level 15.
No, not at all. I was just running low on abilities. It's not iconic or required for the class.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2017, 06:56:05 PM »
I see you don't have a skill list so I'm going to assume this goes along with your barbarian replacement that I reviewed.

From your description of the class I'd say use skills as beguiler for the people who use class skills.
That, or Rogue + Wizard - UMD.

Pick one and put it in the class please, if nothing else it'll make people be able to use it (I think this class might end up in my "homebrew I want to play" list).  The Berserker did.

Quote
"Once per level, he can swap a known spell for another off his spell list of the same level."  Do you mean sorcerer spell known swapping?  Because grammatically this sentence says that at one point of time while I'm a level two Oneiromancer I can swap a known spell and once I hit level three I gain another use of that ability to use while I am level three.
It should be when gaining a level. Basically, like the Sorcerer, but more often.

Copy the Sorcerer then.  "Upon reaching 2nd level, and at Oneiromancer level after that, the oneiromancer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows."

Quote
Does Hop Back require line of effect?  I just ask because Short Hop explicitly doesn't.  Improved Short Hop also doesn't mention it.  Does teleportation normally require line of effect?  It doesn't as far as I'm aware.
I suppose I could just tag them all as [teleportation] effects and be done with it.

That could work.


Quote
I'm going to assume that in your cosmology sleep immunity is such a major deal that a racial feature for LA 0 races is worth gaining at level 15.
No, not at all. I was just running low on abilities. It's not iconic or required for the class.

I feel like we can do better then.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2017, 02:53:02 PM »
I added the top three changes, although I haven't thought up a replacement for the sleep-immunity ability, yet.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2017, 04:19:59 PM »
I added the top three changes, although I haven't thought up a replacement for the sleep-immunity ability, yet.

I have two ideas:

An ability to sneak attack after teleporting (since teleporting takes up your swift action for focused precision).

Something divination focused because there is less of that.


Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2017, 08:35:29 AM »
An ability to sneak attack after teleporting (since teleporting takes up your swift action for focused precision).
That could work pretty nicely. Perhaps something like "when the oneiromancer teleports, all creatures adjacent to his destination are considered flat-footed against any attacks made by him until the start of their next turn."


Something divination focused because there is less of that.
Yeah, D&D Divination has always been weird. It's usually either really underwhelming or quite awesome. As it stands, about all I've given him is Penetrating Perception, which could be cool in the right circumstances.

Maybe just increasing the range on various divination abilities would be enough to make the class unique. I'd add a weaker version at 8th level, too. Something like:

"Distant Divinations (Ex): At 8th level, the range of the oneiromancer's Divination spells increase. Any spell with a range category (Close, Medium, or Long) increases up to the next category. A range that was originally Long increases to one mile per level. All other numeric ranges double. In addition, any Divination with a cone-shaped area becomes an emanation centered on the caster.

Improved Distant Divinations (Ex): At 15th level, the range of the oneiromancer's Divination spells increase even further. Each spell with a range category increases to the next category a second time, as described in Distant Divinations. A spell that's range was already increased to one mile per level is increased to one hundred miles per level. All other numeric ranges are multiplied by five, on top of the previous doubling (to ten times their original range)."

I personally don't feel that it's too much at 15th level. You're basically able to use Locate Creature and Clairaudiance/Clairvoyance at the same range of Teleport. Improving the ranges on some of those long-range divinations changes them from something like "find some thing in this dungeon or neighborhood" to "find something anywhere in or around this city" at 8th level, and to "find something in this region" at 15th level. I think that captures some of the high-level D&D stuff. In my campaign, it would still involve traveling to the dream plane, although it's less risky at this point.


Also, I should probably add Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law to the spell list, too. I don't use alignment, but it could be handy.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2017, 10:57:53 AM »
I agree that detect alignments would be good.

I like the divination range increasing better than the teleporting sneak attack.  It's more unique, and I don't see any issues with it although I'm not super familiar with divination spells.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2017, 02:02:19 PM »
I've added them all in.

Currently, the four Detect [alignment] spells are in there separately, although, I see people only ever taking Detect Evil in practice (if any of them). I'd considered lumping them all in under one slot. What are your thoughts?
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2017, 02:54:50 PM »
I'd considered lumping them all in under one slot. What are your thoughts?
Go ahead and just do it.

Also, while I'm here I couldn't help but read through the Class which of course means I have nit picks so you have been warned.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2017, 03:50:43 PM »
Well I can address one of those at least.

* Why does he get a +4 bonus to Saves to avoid gaining madness if he "no longer gains madness"?

He " no longer gains madness for spending time on Oneirus" and can still be driven mad in other ways (and gains the +4 bonus against those other ways).

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2017, 03:53:48 PM »
* First thought,: faaaaaaaaarr to much Spellcasting.
* Focus's math should be simplified some, divide by an odd value, add your Wisdom Modifier, then another two. Why not just say your base Will Save & Wisdom Modifier instead?
Do you mean too many spell's known, access to too big a list, too many available at one time, or something else?

I could, other than it might make multiclassing wonky. Keep in mind, this is an equation that is done once per level. I could try a different formula, but the idea was to start out with a fairly small pool that slowly grows. Because you're pegged at spells casting 2 points, I don't need to keep inflating it a lot. More focus means more freedom to use abilities, but there's still a limit before being forced to spend actions to refresh.


* To much is dependent on keeping a point of focus, Wisdom-to-AC, AC bonuses, Evasion-on-crack, & Improved Uncanny Dodge, you ironically don't gain a enough spending them to warrant spending your last one.
That was kind of my intent. You have to weigh out in a situation whether or not you'd use it. Granted, you can gain it back with Concentration checks.


* Which leads to the other deal, you can gain multiple points per turn (with no mentioned cap) but you really only have to spend two points each round (or three if you want to be the ultimate archer). One for savelessly rob your opponent of all their Dex/Dodge bonuses to AC and net that +5d6 to damage with all your attacks, and another to take 10 and gain a +2 bonus on one of your Saves. Divinations and staring through walls is something you'll do out of combat and when points don't matter.
You can't deny people their Dex bonus and take 10 on saves every round; one takes a swift action and one takes an immediate. I was hoping the swift/immediate action cost on things would give you choices, but still put sharp limits on how much can be done in a single round.

Yes, you get uncapped Focus gain (up to your maximum Focus score) on a check, but it takes a move action. Most of the spells this class casts won't benefit from standing in one spot and spamming over and over. There might be a few exceptions, though.


* Why does he get a +4 bonus to Saves to avoid gaining madness if he "no longer gains madness"?
The "no longer gains madness" thing has a qualifier after it, so the +4 applies every other time. It's a setting-specific thing that could be replaced in a different game. Maybe sleep immunity, or something.


* Hijack Teleportation, this redirects other people teleporting. The Oneiromancer doesn't go anywhere or "ride it" so why call it a hijacking and listed it as a teleportation effect?[/i]
"Redirect Teleportation" or "Reroute Teleportation" or something?


Improved Focused Precision should change the focused precision into a free action during their turn as well.
Why? Just so you have to spend a point per attack? If you're using TWF, that's four points a round, which is the same as two spells. It'd really affect the balance of focus points/costs in a way I'm not sure I'd like. Remember that full attacks are limited by not taking move-actions, and you only regain focus on move-actions. You can only go full-face-stab mode for a short time with this class, before recharging.


Then adjust and simplify the amount of focus points they can have, maybe 1/2 level plus your ability modifier like most DCs are calculated. Then the Spellcasting needs some kind of trimming as most pseudo caster/rogue concepts expect CL loss (like the arcane trickster). Maybe cap at 6th level Spells (like a bard or chameleon) or move to 1/day select SLAs (like the factotum or master of masks) instead of trying to be a Super Beguiler +Gish. While managing points can be tedious, it's fun to spend them on instant benefits knowing you can regain them again with little effort.
I'm not a big fan of 6th level casting classes. I'd rather give classes things that are level-appropriate at the levels intended than make them wait as a sort of "balance" concern. If it seems too powerful, it could get reigned in with either less total options to choose from (smaller spell list) and/or available at a time (fewer spells known).


Edit - Took a second pass on the Spellcasting. He gets divinations, self/party buffs, saveless debuffs, save-or-dies, transportation, and ultility effects like dipping into Psionics for Lesser Time Stop at the eleventh level. So really he gets a massive increases to Spells Known, which great for PrCs that expand options, in exchange for not having minions without buying a cheap magic item or that super useful blasting category everyone loves (but it's ok he gets guaranteed sneak attack with bows) and I'm not entirely sure that evens out.
Yeah, I'm probably going to have to run an NPC along side the party to get a good feel for how it plays out. My hope was it would run like a sort of light gish that plays like a rogue/monk/diviner who pops in and out of places. I was thinking it'd have relatively little wide-area crowd control (which I love about the wizard) and have a mix of utility, mobility, debuffs, and buffs. That was the thought, anyway.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2017, 04:43:16 PM »
Do you mean too many spell's known, access to too big a list, too many available at one time, or something else?
I better quantified some of it further down in the message but I did skip that it technically has infinite casting per day making it ripe for all sorts of abuse. The tie into refreshing points isn't a penalty but a bonus. But I'll go a specific application in this post for you to make it up.

I could, other than it might make multiclassing wonky.
It already is, a two level dip gives you 2+WisMod points, Wis-to-AC, Sneak Attack +1d6, the ability to rob people of Dex/Dodge bonuses, and you always start every Encounter with True Strike or w/e. The initial gain of points is more than the next nineteen levels will pay out too and I'm not really sure on how to repatch it beyond my last suggestion which at least gives you more points for sticking around.

You can't deny people their Dex bonus and take 10 on saves every round
Well technically you can since you expend a Swift Action on your turn and then an Immediate Action (consuming your next swift action) on your opponent's turn but yeah you can't really keep doing that and I forgot they both keys off Swift Actions by the time I made it that far into the reply. But, if the point was there isn't much to spend it on, is having less options than I listed helping the matter?

Most of the spells this class casts won't benefit from standing in one spot and spamming over and over.
Except all those Save-or-Suck/Dies.

Also you can just cast Temporal Acceleration to trade a Swift Action to move around and recover your points all you want in an infinite loop. Alternatively, by level 19 and without even using Time Stop you can teleport backwards as a Swift Action further than you can probably walk, Move Action to recover points, and Standard to Cast again. And your opponent can't Full-Attack you unless they have Pounce and since Supernatural Abilities don't provoke AoOs it's not like they can hit or Trip you as you move away either. You didn't just give your Class the Spells to do this, you gave them Class Features too.

The "no longer gains madness" thing has a qualifier after it, so the +4 applies every other time.
I thought you might have meant that, but then again I don't know all of the Planes in 2nd Edition to know if Oneirus even has a madness deal over time or how that's supposed to interact with 3.5's optional Sanity system which is what I think of when I think of madness. But as long as someone knows what it's supposed to do...

"Redirect Teleportation" or "Reroute Teleportation" or something?
Which ever one you like better.

Why? Just so you have to spend a point per attack?
Yep. And I also suggested a pool increase, maybe you can work out on the scale of things so TWFing those four Dex-ignored Sneak Attacks depletes most of their pool so on the next round they can't repeat it. Instead they might use their remaining pool to cast a low level Spell or UMD a Magical Item and recover their points. That'll get them switching between casting & attacking or choose to focus on one over the other rather than them both.

I'm not a big fan of 6th level casting classes. I'd rather give classes things that are level-appropriate at the levels intended than make them wait as a sort of "balance" concern. If it seems too powerful, it could get reigned in with either less total options to choose from (smaller spell list) and/or available at a time (fewer spells known).
See the above tactic I mentioned about free murder Spells as a "balance" concern.

Yeah, I'm probably going to have to run an NPC along side the party to get a good feel for how it plays out.
That's always a good way to test things, but if you can put someone else in charge of running it. They may notice things you missed, like the dangers of combining infinite casting with the mere existence of Spells that grant extra Actions.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 05:43:06 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2017, 02:04:02 PM »
I could, other than it might make multiclassing wonky.
It already is, a two level dip gives you 2+WisMod points, Wis-to-AC, Sneak Attack +1d6, the ability to rob people of Dex/Dodge bonuses, and you always start every Encounter with True Strike or w/e. The initial gain of points is more than the next nineteen levels will pay out too and I'm not really sure on how to repatch it beyond my last suggestion which at least gives you more points for sticking around.
What I meant by making multiclassing wonky is that if you dipped into a couple classes that had full Will progressions, it would give you a large boost to Focus.

Also, you can't start every fight with True Strike unless you cast it every round, and you'd be pinned in place any round you needed to regain your focus. I suppose it might be work combing the list for buffs that last a minute per level, or more, to gauge what someone might theoretically have running at any given time.


You can't deny people their Dex bonus and take 10 on saves every round
Well technically you can since you expend a Swift Action on your turn and then an Immediate Action (consuming your next swift action) on your opponent's turn but yeah you can't really keep doing that and I forgot they both keys off Swift Actions by the time I made it that far into the reply. But, if the point was there isn't much to spend it on, is having less options than I listed helping the matter?
I think this is a good thing. You only get to do one of those things per round, and you have a choice on which one. Choosing between skill/save boost, qualify for Sneak Attack, short range teleport seems fine to me. The point is, you do one of these things in conjunction with the rest of your round.


Most of the spells this class casts won't benefit from standing in one spot and spamming over and over.
Except all those Save-or-Suck/Dies.
Yeah, my biggest hesitation is Tekken juggling someone over and over to keep them from acting. I'd like to avoid tacking on some other resource mechanic to stop that. Perhaps slowing focus down to a full-round action would do the trick.


Also you can just cast Temporal Acceleration to trade a Swift Action to move around and recover your points all you want in an infinite loop. Alternatively, by level 19 and without even using Time Stop you can teleport backwards as a Swift Action further than you can probably walk, Move Action to recover points, and Standard to Cast again. And your opponent can't Full-Attack you unless they have Pounce and since Supernatural Abilities don't provoke AoOs it's not like they can hit or Trip you as you move away either. You didn't just give your Class the Spells to do this, you gave them Class Features too.
I should probably add a caveat in Focus that prevents you from regaining it during periods of stopped time, like Temporal Acceleration or Time Stop. It still would allow for buffs, traps, and get-aways, but would prevent having full focus. Good catch.

I'm not really worried about nullifying most full-attacks at 19th level. At 5th level, you can nullify most meaningful full attacks with Fly, anyway.


Why? Just so you have to spend a point per attack?
Yep. And I also suggested a pool increase, maybe you can work out on the scale of things so TWFing those four Dex-ignored Sneak Attacks depletes most of their pool so on the next round they can't repeat it. Instead they might use their remaining pool to cast a low level Spell or UMD a Magical Item and recover their points. That'll get them switching between casting & attacking or choose to focus on one over the other rather than them both.
I'm not really worried about four 2d6 Sneak Attacks in a round at level 8. A rogue is getting four at 4d6 at that point, when they ambush someone. If this somehow seems overpowered, I could add a Will save to Focused Precision, or something.


I'm not a big fan of 6th level casting classes. I'd rather give classes things that are level-appropriate at the levels intended than make them wait as a sort of "balance" concern. If it seems too powerful, it could get reigned in with either less total options to choose from (smaller spell list) and/or available at a time (fewer spells known).
See the above tactic I mentioned about free murder Spells as a "balance" concern.
I get the concern about spamming SoDs, but I don't see how lowering the top level of spells available and making spells less level-appropriate addresses that issue.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2017, 01:55:01 PM »
What I meant by making multiclassing wonky is that if you dipped into a couple classes that had full Will progressions, it would give you a large boost to Focus.
Easy fix, tie it to the Oneiromancer's Will Save bonus.

Also, you can't start every fight with True Strike unless you cast it every round
Eh I just grabbed a 1st level Spell for an example of spamming.

Perhaps slowing focus down to a full-round action would do the trick.
Maybe? No one liked the Swordsage's Full-Round recovery through but I'm not sure on an easy answer. The recovery is kinda of unique which does make is kind of a selling point through.

I'm not really worried about nullifying most full-attacks at 19th level. At 5th level, you can nullify most meaningful full attacks with Fly, anyway.
Not really, besides most mid-to-high level monsters have SLAs that specifically give them something to do even if their target isn't readily in range of their teeth & claws. The Terrasqua doesn't peak for the ten thousand other better designed monsters.

I get the concern about spamming SoDs, but I don't see how lowering the top level of spells available and making spells less level-appropriate addresses that issue.
Typically it lowers the DC, but sometimes it can have other effects. Like Weird is an area version of Phantasmal Killer so it can drop multi-targeting to single targeting depend on other options. Plus it can outright stop some things, like Programmed Amnesia is pretty much the 3.5 version of Mindrape and just not hitting 9ths is enough to prevent seeing that on the table. It doesn't always work if you specifically counter it through, like the Bard getting a couple 8ths as 6ths, or the Trapsmight getting a famous 3rd as a 1st.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 02:14:16 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Re: Oneiromancer (3.5) - a dream mage
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 02:09:45 PM »
At this point, I'm thinking about having a full-round action to recover, and allowing a move-action with a base DC of 20. Also, there's a stipulation that you cannot regain focus when time is stopped, such as Time Stop or Temporal Acceleration.

I don't think it's abuse proof, but I think it gets me closer to where I want to be.
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