Author Topic: 3 Melee Warlocks  (Read 1451 times)

Offline Maat Mons

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3 Melee Warlocks
« on: October 29, 2017, 11:59:43 PM »
Infiltrator
"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
Unknown

Making an Infiltrator
Abilities: The sneak attack ability tends to encourage two-weapon fighting.  Any infiltrators wishing to pursue that line of feats will need a good dexterity score.  Charisma aids those invocations that force a saving throw. 
Races: Most infiltrators are human, but gnomes and halflings also make good infiltrators. 
Alignment: Infiltrators are almost never lawful. 
Starting Gold: 5d4x10 (125 gp)
Starting Age: As rogue. 

Hit Die: d6
LevelAttackFortRefWillSpecialInvocation LevelInvocations Known
10022TrapfindingLeast1
21033EvasionLeast2
32133Sneak attack +1d6Least2
43144Uncanny dodgeLeast3
53144Least3
64255Sneak attack +2d6Lesser4
75255Poison useLesser4
86266Improved uncanny dodgeLesser5
96366Sneak attack +3d6Lesser5
107377Eldritch treachery (spell resistance)Lesser6
118377Improved evasionGreater7
129488Sneak attack +4d6Greater7
139488Poison immunityGreater8
1410499Hide in plain sightGreater8
1511599Eldritch alacrity, sneak attack +5d6Greater9
161251010Dark10
171251010Dark10
181361111Sneak attack +6d6Dark11
191461111Dark11
201561212Eldritch treachery (saves)Dark12
Class Skills (6 + int per level x4 at 1st level): Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
You are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, kukri, rapier, sap, scimitar, shortbow, and short sword.
You are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Your infiltrator invocations do not suffer a spell failure chance from light armor.  You suffer the normal spell failure chance for medium or heavy armor, or shields, however.

Invocations:
You use invocations, like a warlock or dragonfire adept, except that your invocations are drawn from the infiltrator class list. 

Trapfinding (Ex):
You can use the Search skill to locate traps with a DC higher than 20.  You can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps.  This functions identically to the rogue class feature. 

Evasion (Ex):
Beginning at 2nd level, if you make a successful Reflex save against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage.  Evasion can be used only if you are wearing light armor or no armor.  You do not gain the benefit of evasion while helpless. 

Sneak Attack (Ex):
You gain sneak attack (as the rogue ability) equal to +1d6 per 3 class levels. 

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
Starting at 4th level, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
If you already have uncanny dodge from a different class you automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Poison Use (Ex):
You do not risk accidentally poisoning yourself when you apply poison to a weapon. 

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
You gain improved uncanny dodge, as the rogue ability. 

Eldritch Treachery (Ex):
Your invocations are more effective against targets who are denied their Dexterity bonus to AC against your attacks, and enemies that you flank.  Beginning at 10th level, your invocations ignore any spell resistnace (or spell immunity) possessed by such creatures.  Beginning at 20th level, these creatures must roll twice and take the worse result on any saving throws allowed by your invocations. 

Eldritch Alacrity:
You gain an extra swift (or immediate) action each round.  This action can only be used to cast an invocation. 

Eldritch Treachery:
Beginning at 10th level, you can ignore the spell resistance (or spell immunity) of any enemy who is denied his dexterity bonus against your attacks.  Beginning at 20th level, enemies who are denied their dexterity bonus against your attacks also have more difficulty when making saving throws against your invocations.  They must roll twice, and take the worse result. 

Improved Evasion (Ex):
Beginning at 11th level, when using the evasion ability, you take only half damage even on a failed save. 

Poison Immunity (Ex):
At 13th level, you gain immunity to poison. 

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex):
Beginning at 14th level, you can use the Hide skill even while being observed.  As long as you are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, you can hide yourself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.  You cannot, however, hide in your own shadow. 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 12:53:39 AM by Maat Mons »

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2017, 11:59:50 PM »
Sawbones
quote

Making a Sawbones
Abilities:
Races:
Alignment: Evil sawbones are somewhat uncommon, but by no means unheard of. 
Starting Gold: 5d4x10 (125 gp)
Starting Age: As cleric. 

Hit Die: d8
LevelAttackFortRefWillSpecialInvocation LevelInvocations Known
10202Weapon focusLeast1
21303Immunity to diseaseLeast2
32313Healing touchLeast2
43414Least3
53414Least3
64525Weapon specializationLesser4
75525Lesser4
86626Lesser restorationLesser5
96636Lesser5
107737PanaceaLesser6
118737Greater weapon focusGreater7
129848Break enchantmentGreater7
139848Greater8
1410949RestorationGreater8
1511959Greater9
161210510Greater weapon specializationDark10
171210510Dark10
181311611Dark11
191411611Dark11
201512612Greater restorationDark12
Class Skills (4 + int per level x4 at 1st level): Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
You are proficient with all simple weapons, plus one martial weapon of your choice. 
You are proficient with light armor and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields). 
Your infiltrator invocations do not suffer a spell failure chance from light or medium armor, or for shields (except tower shields).  You suffer the normal spell failure chance for heavy armor, or tower shields, however. 

Invocations:
You use invocations, like a warlock or dragonfire adept, except that your invocations are drawn from the sawbones class list. 

Weapon Focus:
You gain weapon focus as a bonus feat, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites. 

Immunity to Disease (Ex):
At 2nd level, you gain immunity to diseases of all types, including supernatural diseases. 

Healing Touch (Su):
Beginning at 3rd level, you can touch a creature and heal it of an amount of damage equal to 1d8 per 3 sawbones levels.  As a special restriction, healing from this ability cannot bring a creature's hit points above half its maximum.  This ability is usable at will. 

Weapon Specialization:
At 6th level, you gain weapon focus as a bonus feat, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.  You must select the same type of weapon for this feat as you chose for weapon focus at 1st level. 

Lesser Restoration (Sp):
At 8th level, you gain lesser restoration as a spell-like ability, usable at will. 

Panacea (Sp):
At 10th level, you gain greater panacea as a spell-like ability, usable at will.  Unlike a normal casting of panacea, however, this does not restore any hit points. 

Greater Weapon Focus:
At 11th level, you gain greater weapon focus as a bonus feat, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.  You must select the same type of weapon for this feat as you chose for weapon focus at 1st level. 

Break Enchantment (Sp):
At 12th level, you gain break enchantment as a spell-like ability, usable at will. 

Restoration (Sp):
At 14th level, you gain restoration as a spell-like ability, usable at will.  You do not need to provide the material component. 

Greater Weapon Specialization:
At 16th level, you gain greater weapon specialization as a bonus feat, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.  You must select the same type of weapon for this feat as you chose for weapon focus at 1st level. 

Greater Restoration (Sp):
At 20th level, you gain greater restoration as a spell-like ability, usable at will.  You do not pay the xp cost. 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 12:52:52 AM by Maat Mons »

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2017, 11:59:56 PM »
Stalwart
"You shall not pass!"
Robert Nivelle

Making a Stalwart
Abilities: "The best defense is a good offense," so stalwarts benefit from a high Strength score.  Charisma improves the save DCs of stalwart invocations.  Any stalwart looking to acquire the Improved Trip feat will need an Intelligence score of at least 13. 
Races: Dwarves are predisposed to becoming stalwarts, in spite of their charisma penalty.  Elves sometimes pursue this class due to their love of both magic and swordsmanship, but their penalty to constitution hinders their durability.  Humans, however, make up the majority of stalwarts. 
Alignment: Overall, stalwarts tend slightly toward lawful alignments. 
Starting Gold: 6d4x10 (150 gp)
Starting Age: As fighter. 

Hit Die: d10
LevelAttackFortRefWillSpecialInvocation LevelInvocations Known
11202Second skinLeast1
22303Bonus featLeast2
33313Dauntless (fear)Least2
44414Least3
55414Bonus featLeast3
66525Tenacity (fatigue)Lesser4
77525Ignore encumbrance (medium)Lesser4
88626Bonus featLesser5
99636Dauntless (charms and compulsions)Lesser5
1010737MettleLesser6
1111737Bonus featGreater7
1212848Tenacity (nonlethal damage)Greater7
1313848Ignore encumbrance (heavy)Greater8
1414949Bonus featGreater8
1515959Dauntless (all mind-affecting)Greater9
161610510Dark10
171710510Bonus featDark10
181811611Tenacity (stunning)Dark11
191911611Dark11
202012612Bonus feat, improved mettleDark12
Class Skills (4 + int per level x4 at 1st level): Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
You are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
Your stalwart invocations do not suffer a spell failure chance from any armor or shields. 

Invocations:
You use invocations, like a warlock or dragonfire adept, except that your invocations are drawn from the stalwart class list. 

Second Skin (Ex):
You can sleep in medium or heavy armor without becoming fatigued. 

Bonus Feat (Ex):
At 2nd level, and every three levels thereafter, you gain a bonus feat.  These feats must be drawn from the fighter bonus feat list, and you must meet all prerequisites. 

Dauntless (Ex):
At 3rd level, you gain immunity to fear effects.  At 9th level, you gain immunity to charms and compulsions.  Finally, at 15th level, you gain immunity to all mind-affecting effects (but you may still choose to benefit from helpful mind-affecting effects). 

Tenacity (Ex):
At 6th level, you gain immunity to fatigue and exhaustion.  At 12th level, you gain immunity to nonlethal damage.  Finally, at 18th level, you gain immunity to stunning. 

Ignore Encumbrance (Ex):
Beginning at 7th level, wearing medium armor or carrying a medium load does not reduce your speed.  Beginning at 13th level, wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load does not reduce your speed, nor does it limit you to moving only 3x your speed when running or charging. 

Mettle (Ex):
Beginning at 10th level, if you are subjected to an effect that normally allows a fortitude or will save for partial effect, you suffer no effect on a successful saving throw. 

Improved Mettle (Ex):
Beginning at 20th level, if subjected to an effect that allows a fortitude or will save for partial effect, you take only the partial effect on a failed save (and no effect on a successful save, just as with Mettle). 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 03:46:09 AM by Maat Mons »

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2017, 12:00:02 AM »
Reserved
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 03:47:11 AM by Maat Mons »

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2017, 12:00:08 AM »
Reserved
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 03:47:22 AM by Maat Mons »

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2017, 12:00:38 AM »
    Invocations

    Reused Invocations
    [Not all of the classes will use all of these.  But I'm not going to wory about that yet.] 

    Least
    • All-Seeing Eyes: As comprehend languages on written material, bonus on search and spot checks.
    • Beguiling Influence: Gain bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.
    • Call of the Beast: Speak with animals and influence their behavior.
    • Darkness: Use darkness as the spell.
    • Dark One's Own Luck: Gain a luck bonus on one type of saves.
    • Devil's Sight: See normally in darkness and magical darkness.
    • Entropic Warding: Deflect incoming ranged attacks, leave no trail, and prevent being tracked by scent.
    • Leaps and Bounds: Gain bonus on Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks.
    • Magic Insight: Detect magical auras; identify magic items.
    • Miasmic Cloud: Create a cloud of mist that grants concealment and fatigues those who enter.
    • Otherworldly Whispers: Gain bonus on Knowledge checks.
    • See the Unseen: Gain see invisibility as the spell and darkvision.
    • Serpent's Tongue: Gain the scent ability, +5 bonus on saves against poison.
    • Soulreaving Aura: As reaving aura, plus gain temporary hit points if nearby creatures dies.
    • Spiderwalk: Gain spider climb as the spell and you are immune to webs.
    • Swimming the Styx: Gain swim speed and ability to breathe water.

    Lesser
    • Charm: Cause a single creature to regard you as a friend.
    • Cold Comfort: You and nearby allies protected by endure elements.
    • Crawling Eye: Your eye leaves your head and grows spidery legs, enabling it to scout for you.
    • Curse of Despair: Curse one creature as the bestow curse spell, or hinder their attacks.
    • Disembodied Hand: Detach one of your hands and send it forth to manipulate objects or attack.
    • Dread Seizure: Slow enemy, and hinder ability to attack distant targets.
    • Enthralling Voice: Make nearby creatures fascinated.
    • Fell Flight: Gain a fly speed with good maneuverability.
    • Flee the Scene: Use short-range dimension door as the spell, and leave behind a major image.
    • Frightful Presence: Make nearby creatures shaken.
    • Humanoid Shape: Take the form of any humanoid creature.
    • Ignore the Pyre: Gain resistance to one energy type.
    • Mask of Flesh: Touch attack imposes 1d6 Cha penalty and transforms you to look like target.
    • Relentless Dispelling: As targeted dispel magic, with additional targeted dispel magic the next turn.
    • Spider-shape: You can transform yourself into the form of a Small or Medium fiendish monstrous spider.
    • Thieves' Bane: As Hold Portal, plus the portal explodes for 5d6 damage when forced open.
    • Voidsense: Gain blindsense 30 feet.
    • Voracious Dispelling: Use dispel magic as the spell, causing damage to creatures whose effects are dispelled.
    • Walk Unseen: Use invisibility (self only) as the spell.
    • Weighty Utterance: Force flying creature to the ground. 
    • Witchwood Step: Walk on water and move through some obstacles unimpeded.

    Greater
    • Aura of Flame: Aura deals fire damage to creatures that strike you.
    • Devil's Whispers: As Suggestion, plus subject believes his actions were his own idea.
    • Devour Magic: Use targeted greater dispel magic with a touch and gain temporary hit points based on the level of spells successfully dispelled.
    • Draconic Toughness: Gain temporary hit points equal to your level.
    • Enervating Shadow: Gain total concealment in dark areas and impose a Strength penalty on adjacent living creatures.
    • Warlock's Call: Use sending as the spell, but risk damage from recipient.

    Dark
    • Caster's Lament: Your touch can break enchantment, and you can counterspell.
    • Dark Discorporation: Become a swarm of batlike shadows, gaining many benefits of the swarm subtype.
    • Dark Foresight: Use foresight as the spell, and communicate telepathically with a close target of the effect.
    • Energy Immunity: Gain immunity to acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage.
    • Perilous Veil: Use veil as the spell; anyone succeeding on the Will save to negate the illusion takes damage.
    • Retributive Invisibility: Use greater invisibility as the spell (self only) that deals damage in a burst if dispelled.
    • Steal Summoning: Take control of another caster's summoned monster.

    New Invocations
    [Not all of the classes will use all of these.  But I'm not going to wory about that yet.] 

    Least
    • Accuracy: Gain a bonus on attack rolls. 
    • Eldritch Armor: Grant yourself mage armor with scaling AC bonus. 
    • Energy Sheathe: Weapon deals extra energy damage. 
    • Featherweight: Gain improved jumping ability and take less falling damage. 
    • Knockdown Blow: Knock an enemy down with a melee attack. 
    • Quick and sure: Gain speed bonus and don't take penalties on certain skills for moving at full speed. 

    Lesser
    • Blade of Impedance: Enemies you strike may be slowed. 
    • Blazing Trail: Leave a fiery barrier behind you. 
    • Cold Steel: Attacks deal dexterity damage. 
    • Dazing Strike: Next melee attack dazes target. 
    • Deflection: Your armor becomes effective against touch attacks. 
    • Dolorous Aura: Double your critical threat range and automatically confirm critical threats. 
    • Eldritch Dominance: Gain a chance to knock enemies down with your melee attacks. 
    • Eldritch Enlargement: Grow in size. 
    • Eldritch Hustle: Gain an extra move action. 
    • Eldritch Lion's Charge: Gain the pounce ability. 
    • Enchanting Aura: Your weapons and armor gain an enhancement bonus. 
    • Entangling Shadows: Enemies treat the area around you as difficult terrain. 
    • Halting Strike: Stop enemy movement. 
    • Harden Defenses: Gain damage reduction based on armor. 
    • Master Key: As knock, but can permanently remove arcane lock
    • Mighty Shield: Improve your ability to make shield bash attacks. 
    • Penetrating Strikes: Partially bypass immunity to sneak attacks. 
    • Phasing Attacks: Turn weapons into touch attacks. 
    • Ranged Reflection: Redirect an attack aimed at you. 
    • Titan Strike: Increase the damage of your attacks. 
    • Titan's Grip: Gain the ability to wield a larger weapon in your main hand. 
    • Vigorate: Gain fast healing when below 1/2 HP. 

    Greater
    • Back Off: Knock enemies away from you. 
    • Cheat Death: Use delay death on yourself. 
    • Curse Wounds: Damage you deal is difficult to heal. 
    • Cursed Blade: Bestow curse with a weapon attack. 
    • Dispelling Buffer: Your effects become harder to dispel. 
    • Dispelling Strikes: Charge your weapon with a targeted dispel. 
    • Eldritch Celerity: Gain an extra standard action. 
    • Eldritch Vitality: Protect yourself with a death ward
    • Gutshift: Gain immunity to critical hits. 
    • Ignore Resistance: Bypass most types of DR. 
    • Noxious Strikes: Chance to nauseate creatures struck. 
    • Strike True: Ignore miss chance. 
    • Stubborn Pride: Do not auto-fail saves on a 1. 

    Dark
    • Avert Fate: Reroll a single d20 roll. 
    • Draining Blade: Your attacks bestow negative levels. 
    • Eldritch Celerity, Improved: Gain an extra full-round action. 
    • Freezing Strikes: Your melee attacks may transform targets into ice. 
    • Melee Reflection: Redirect an attack aimed at you. 
    • Quickport: Teleport as swift action. 

    Invocation Descriptions

    (click to show/hide)
    « Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 03:06:06 PM by Maat Mons »

    Offline Maat Mons

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #6 on: October 30, 2017, 12:00:55 AM »
    Okay, well Untamed is posted.  If anyone wants to comment on that, feel free.  I'll be working on getting the other four up here, but I'm not sure how long that will take. 
    « Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 12:50:57 AM by Maat Mons »

    Offline RobbyPants

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #7 on: October 30, 2017, 09:31:07 AM »
    The Untamed looks interesting. I haven't taken the time to build one by selecting invocations, but the idea of a full-BAB fighter-type that gets utility tricks is good. I'm assuming all of the damage is dealt with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon, and the invocations are used to keep the class viable.
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    Offline Maat Mons

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #8 on: October 30, 2017, 06:10:58 PM »
    Yeah, the class itself doesn't give that much damage, so you'd be mostly reliant on traditional power attack use.  To some extent, eldritch channeling (basically a copy of duskblade's arcane channeling) could help with damage, but I was planning to gear the touch-range invocations more toward inflicting status effects than damage output. 

    Eldritch channeling to some extent conflicts with power attack, because it's a standard (or, later, full-round) action.  And some of the best power attack use involves charging.  But I included a wraithstrike invocation, so you can have all your attacks be touch attacks, if you're willing to spend a swift action every round.  That should at least let you power attack for full without shock trooper, though it still doesn't give you increased returns from power attack, like you can get from charging. 

    Also, in order to keep wraithstrike from being the obvious choice, I'm trying to come up with other swift-action invocations that can compete with it.  So far, I've got a 1-round, swift-action equivalent of greater mighty wallop, and an "ignore DR/regen" one, but I'm not sure those actually succeed at being in the same league.  I'm also considering a psionic-lion's-charge-style one and something like the cursed blade spell, but again, I'm not sure how to make them competitive. 

    If you've got any suggestions for invocations, I'm wide open.  I feel like I need more & better swift-action ones, more touch-range ones to use with eldritch channeling, and more utility ones to let the class be more than a beat-stick.  So more of everything. 

    I'm glad you like the full base attack bonus + utility idea, because that's what all the other classes are going to be too.  I was originally making just one class, but whenever I tried to make it general enough to be used for all themes, it wound up feeling too generic.  This is the one that's thematically crossed with barbarian.  The other ones are crosses with paladin (and its non-LG variants), rogue, ranger, and monk.  I gave up on the one that was themed after fighter, because I couldn't find much of a theme in fighter to work with. 

    Offline Versatility_Nut

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #9 on: October 30, 2017, 11:38:36 PM »
    Hmm... Swift Action invocations that act as single-round attack buffs? Well, pure damage always works. +Cha to Attack and Damage for every attack this round is an easy Least or Lesser invocation. Knocking enemies Prone while adding Bludgeoning or Force damage to attacks would also work. Maybe have the Prone and Bludgeoning on a Lesser Invocation and have Knockback and Force damage on a Greater Invocation.

    Personally, I'd add an Eldritch Channeling for Opportunity Attacks, so that extremely dominantly CC Invocations have a more frequent use case.

    Now, let's talk about the other classes. My guesses as to counterparts for each class is as follows:

    Bastion = Paladin
    Infiltrator = Rogue
    Reaper = Ranger
    Untamed = Barbarian
    Youxia = Monk

    Now, I kinda dislike purely "Like X, except Y" classes, so I'll give some ideas about how to differentiate them. Giving Eldritch Channeling to the Barbarian equivalent seems... odd to me, but having Invocations with "backlash" damage, like the Vicious weapon enhancement, would make it somewhat more fitting. Honestly, I'd actually prefer to have each class have a fundamentally different Invocation alteration. Bastions getting to turn Invocations into Auras, Infiltrators increasing CL and/or save DCs with a Sneak Attack variety booster, Reapers getting tricks based on Fighting Style and Youxia getting to use Invocations as (Su) personal buffs. Kinda replacing some class feature functions with Invocations.

    I'd also like to adjust the Untamed from being an Invocation based Duskblade/Barbarian mix to being more unique. Instead of just Arcane Channeling for Invocations, it could be something that has different details. Maybe just

    Some ideas for each class, to give options outside of Invocations:

    Bastion: The only thing I see with a good option for making into a variable part of the class's foundation is really just copying what Pathfinder did to the Special Mount. Which is to say, choose between a mount and a Kensai-type weapon/armor enhancement. Perhaps just flat out Heirloom Relic or Item Familiar style "pick an item to have level-appropriate Magic upon." The Special "Mount," of course, could be anything from a really heavily Improved Familiar to a supermount to... well, an Animal Companion or Cohort stand in. Lots of options, best to limit by CR if you don't give a list because HD is screwed too many ways.

    Infiltrator: The actual 3.5 Rogue has an option list that includes some things which can work as outright class features. Something similar, shifted to being more spread out, could give alternate uses for the bonus to CL/DC on Invocations and niche abilities that emphasize different skillmonkey and stealth character abilities, like getting esoteric vision modes. Not just Darkvision, mind, but True Seeing, outright Divination by way of eldritch energy infused artificial eye ala Eye of Kilrogg. Also stuff that makes certain areas of understanding not hot garbage from sinking too many resources for basic competence(WHY THE HELL ARE THERE THREE STEALTH SKILLS?!) like increasing Spot and Listen check DCs to notice you, or short-distance teleportation/intangible movement to go through walls without needing to cover the hallways. Stuff that could be Invocations, but would be too harshly utility to compete with many existing Invocations.

    Reaper: I'd have the Animal Companion setup, if retained, altered into basically having a pet Fiend of Possession. Able to freely swap between items and bonuses to be basically a freeform magic item, of lower value than the Bastion's static item with variable bonuses, as well as being able to give yet-smaller bonuses by merging with the Reaper themselves. Or just be out and about as an ally Outsider that happens to have the power of possession. Possessing enemies, naturally, needs to be restricted to something relatively reasonable in power differential. The real character choices would obviously be Fighting Styles, of which I'd prefer three, each getting associated Invocation alterations. Two weapon fighting, with the ability to use multiple weaker Invocations at reduced CL/DC, two handed fighting, with the ability to make Invocations stronger, conditionally, and a throwing weapon style for long-range Invocations and being a switch-hitter.

    Youxia: ...Okay, I'm really drawing a blank here. Extra bonuses for getting particular combinations of options covers the one mechanic in 3.5 actually named Martial Arts, as well as paralleling one of the Monk AFC sets. But those option lists are more than a little confusing to set up, as Monk's closest thing to an option list is a fixed list of Bonus Feats. Which... would work perfectly fine, honestly. If you give Eldritch Blast for non-insignificant ranged attack power, then you get something to interact with for abnormal functions, giving fuel for options. Stuff like having some Gish-centric alternate uses of Eldritch Blast in feats that a Warlock could pick to become a Gish. Like having recharging temporary HP based directly on Eldritch Blast damage dice, or having it be used for rebound damage scaling. Basically just gives a thing to attach options to.

    Offline Maat Mons

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 06:07:27 PM »
    I'm a very bid fan of arcane channeling as a gish ability.  I feel like most gishes, at any given time, are either swinging a sword or casting a spell.  So, in that moment, they're kind of either a warrior or a mage, not both.  I mean, I know that's a gross oversimplification.  But arcane channeling just feels like it hybridizes the two sides in a way that traditional gishes don't. 

    Additionally, I've always been very puzzled that, before duskblade, channeling abilities were so few, and so limited.  The core rulebooks let anyone channel touch spells through unarmed strikes.  You don't even need the improved unarmed strike feat.  So everyone can already deal melee damage in conjunction with delivering a touch spell.  Why were they so stingy with abilities that amounted to nothing but expanding the list of weapons you can use?  Did they want all gishes to be monk-based?  (Actually, that would explain why they bothered to make arcane spell failure chance a thing.) 

    So, for channeling on attacks of opportunity, would that just be a modifier to Eldritch Channeling?  For example, when you use Eldritch Channeling, all other attack until the start of your next turn also carry the touch spell? 

    Offline Maat Mons

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #11 on: October 31, 2017, 06:20:46 PM »
    Here are a few more swift/immediate invocation ideas.  Hunter's eye would probably only be for infiltrator and reaper. 

    Deflect
    Least; 2nd
    You gain a deflection bonus to AC against one attack.  This bonus is equal to 1/2 your caster level (rounded down).  Using this invocation is an immediate action. 

    Hunter's Eye
    Lesser; 2nd
    You grant yourself the sneak attack ability for one round.  The extra damage you deal is 1d6 per 3 caster levels.  Using this invocation is a swift action. 

    Rewrite Luck
    Dark; 6th
    After finding out the result of a d20 roll you have made, you can cast this invocation to allow yourself a reroll.  You may use the result of this new die roll, or the original result, whichever is better.  Using this invocation is an immediate action. 

    Offline Versatility_Nut

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #12 on: November 01, 2017, 09:45:11 PM »
    So, for channeling on attacks of opportunity, would that just be a modifier to Eldritch Channeling?  For example, when you use Eldritch Channeling, all other attack until the start of your next turn also carry the touch spell?
    Not quite that. What I'm thinking is the same kind of table entry as the Full Attack one, but for Opportunity Attacks. Literally just being able to use Eldritch Channeling on Opportunity Attacks. You don't need to have it be so complicated, and doing that version means that you get to have as many channeled spells on your Opportunity attacks as you have regular attacks. Which gets obscene with TWF builds.

    My own view on Channel abilities is that they're lazy gish fuel. Touch attacks are handled by basic rules, Channeling exists in metamagic form(Smiting Spell) and it's found on a Core PRC(Arcane Archer). The Pathfinder Magus functionally does TWF with spells and a one-handed melee weapon, without actually channeling the spell like 3.5 gishes tend to. They're actually casting a spell alongside their attack, without the need for the attack to hit.

    When it comes to Gishes being a mage and a warrior at the same time, that's a very specific kind of Gish. One that can still be represented as a variety of different things, from a bombardment focused archer that loads a volley with Fireballs and aims for maximum saturation to a smite-happy Cleric who tosses their hammer at anyone who looks at them funny. You also have taking your spells and crystallizing them into weapons that set the spell off with every attack, or using your spells turned into Oozes as flanking partners/mounts. You have the potential for an Arcane Mark centered Monk/Sorcerer that has the central feature of applying contingency spells whenever they attack.

    Offline Maat Mons

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #13 on: November 01, 2017, 10:52:38 PM »
    … doing that version means that you get to have as many channeled spells on your Opportunity attacks as you have regular attacks. Which gets obscene with TWF builds.

    I don't understand what you mean.  When you use the 13th-level version of arcane channeling, you take a full-round action, during which you cast one touch spell and make a full attack with melee weapons.  Any creature hit by at least one of the melee attacks is targeted by the touch spell. 

    How many attacks you have doesn't matter.  One use of arcane channeling casts one spell, never more.  And no matter how many times you hit someone as part of a single use of arcane channeling, they'll only be effected by that spell once.  So you cast one spell per round, and arcane channeling just fiddles with how that spell is targeted. 



    What I'm thinking is the same kind of table entry as the Full Attack one, but for Opportunity Attacks. Literally just being able to use Eldritch Channeling on Opportunity Attacks.

    Well, baseline arcane channeling is a standard action, and the higher-level version is a full-round action.  In order for the AoO version to be "like" that, it would need to be an immediate action.  That could definitely work. 

    But, it sounds like you want it to be a non-action?  I have to say, I'm very much against any spellcasting that doesn't take place as part of a standard, full-round, swift, or immediate action. 



    … a variety of different things …

    I'm pretty adamant about all the classes being able to deliver touch spells through their swords in the same way they can with unarmed strikes.  I could, however, maybe be convinced to alter how the ability progresses at higher level.  So instead of everyone getting full-attack channeling, someone could gain the ability to channel in conjunction with a charge/spring attack/decisive strike/ whatever. 

    Offline linklord231

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #14 on: November 02, 2017, 03:23:25 AM »
    I like this.  I like Warlocks and  I like gishes.  I'm on board with the idea.

    Regarding the Attack of Opportunity channeling thing, you could do it in a couple ways.  One way would be make it unnecessary by giving sufficient swift action 1-round buffs that last until the beginning of your next turn, so they still apply during AoOs.  You could pilfer some of the Swift X line of spells for more invocation ideas if you want.

    Alternatively, you could give an expansion of the base Eldritch Channeling ability like this:
    Channeling Opportunist:  At 6th level, you may use Eldritch Channeling to cast a spell as part of an Attack of Opportunity.  If you do so, you may not use Eldritch Channeling on your next turn. 
    That could also easily be a feat, if you wanted to go that route. 
    I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

    Offline RobbyPants

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #15 on: November 02, 2017, 08:42:04 AM »
    I like what I'm seeing so far and I'm fine with those three swift/immediate invocations.

    Should the infiltrator get an invocation or even class ability at higher level to go ethereal? I see they can get flight and a short-range Dimension Door (if they pick those), which seem important for infiltration.
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    Offline Maat Mons

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #16 on: November 08, 2017, 08:13:03 PM »
    Okay, well, I've taken the notes I had and put them into a semi-presentable form.  Now let's see how long it takes me to put together my thoughts on the sticking points I'm encountering in designing these classes. 

    Offline Maat Mons

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #17 on: November 13, 2017, 09:47:14 PM »
    My indecisiveness is manifesting again.  I need some advice.  Do the ideas I've written up here really warrant five different classes?  Or should I go back and take another shot at doing this as one class that can be played several different ways? 

    My most recent idea for giving the single class, multiple style approach an interesting spin is to rip off Oriental Adventures.  Each style would be themed after (and named after) one of the clans.  (But a campaign without those clans can instead associate the styles with who-, or what-ever the DM likes.) 

    If you guys aren't fed up with my dithering, here's a very rough idea of how the single class might look. 

    (click to show/hide)

    Offline Versatility_Nut

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #18 on: November 15, 2017, 02:51:04 PM »
    I'd have it be two or three classes, if you're condensing. One for the skillmonkey, one for the melee beatstick and possibly one more for the sheer balls to the walls damage dealer. Basically, Rogue/Ranger/Monk and Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin, or Rogue/Ranger, Paladin/Barbarian and Monk/Fighter.

    Offline Maat Mons

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    Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
    « Reply #19 on: November 16, 2017, 03:51:02 AM »
    All right, well, I'll stick with different classes then.  I wasn't sure how I was going to work skill points with only one clan really equated to a skill monkey anyway. 

    And now for some  more musings. 



    Bastion

    Okay, so I was trying to give this class some shield-related abilities.  And it might also be nice to play up the spear-and-shield angle.  So how about this, when armed with a shield in one hand, and a polearm in the other, the class can attack with either one interchangeably, with no two-weapon fighting penalties?  (This would be mutually exclusive with gaining extra attacks by two-weapon fighting.)  Also, maybe when so armed (and not two-weapon fighting, the class can get 1.5x str to damage with both spear and shield, and treat both as two-handed for purposes of power attack? 

    Ultimately, this would work out a lot like wielding a single weapon that can strike both near and far, but it would be thematically different. 

    In support of attacks of opportunity, should I give the class some swift-action/1-round invocations that add a movement-stopping effect to all attacks?  Or maybe rip off knight's ability to turn all your threatened squares into difficult terrain, as far as your enemies are concerned? 



    Infiltrator

    I gave this class a swift-action invocation to gain sneak attack for one round.  But I feel like it only favorably compares to the other swift-action invocations if you're two-weapon fighting.  Should I try to offer more support for the two-weapon fighting angle?  If I'm going to encourage people to do twf sneak attacks, should I make sneak attack an actual class feature?  If I do, I could add sneak-attack-supporting class features/invocations. 

    I feel like "pouncing from the shadows" fits this class pretty well.  Should I add in pounce and acrobatic charge?  For acrobatic charge, I figure, there might not always be an unobstructed path from "the shadows" to your target.  If I make a hustle-style invocation, this could work out to be pretty powerful.  Pounce from hiding, full attack, then swift action to move and hide again. 



    Reaper

    Should I add some polymorph-style invocations?  I'd implement them as bonuses/penalties to stats, rather than stat-replacements.  And maybe some class features to support it, like that one prestige class that let the magical properties of absorbed weapons apply to your claws?  Or some version of the form-mixing ability of master transmorgifist? 

    Kind of a random thought here, but if I do a shape-shifting class, should I do something other than animal?  Like maybe the forms the class can take are all aberrations/pseudonatural creatures? 



    Untamed

    Should I give the class some power-attack tie ins?  Maybe even rip off frenzied berserker, and improve the rate of returns? 

    Do you feel like this class should have some sort of mechanic for making one big attack, instead of several small ones?  I was originally thinking something like decisive strike.  But how about something closer to manyshot?  A standard-action attack that deals multiplied damage, but at a penalty?  And the multiplier/penalty depend on your base attack bonus? 



    Youxia

    You know, I figured "monk's unarmed strike may be a poorly-thought-out mechanic, but throwing it in can't really hurt anything."  But then I got to weapon proficiencies, and I realized that no one would ever use unarmed strike or monk weapons if the class had any of the standard weapon proficiencies. 

    So then I was slashing the weapons the class gets, and I realized that even including that small piece of monk rippled out and screwed things up.  Now the class has no weapons that deal more than 1d6 damage, so anyone who's not two-weapon fighting is lagging behind in damage until 12th level. 

    Should I just ditch the standard unarmed damage progression and make up a new system for encouraging those specific weapons?  Since they all deal around 1d6 damage, the simplest way to even the damage out with other classes would be to give the two-weapon fighting feats.  Maybe the free two-weapon-fighting feats would only function if all attacks are made with monk weapons and/or unarmed strikes? 



    Consolidation

    On the subject of merging some of these classes together, how about the rogue and monk ones?  Honestly, I was kind of splitting some ideas between them that I thought would have worked well on one class.