Synthevolver [base] (Magipunk)

[sirpercival]

Possibly bump it up a step, make the level 2 into level 1 and come up with a new capstone that is somewhere near as good as blanket immunity to magic or energy damage. Probably too hard though. The first level of the spell reisist one is also pretty naff but that can be forgiven for the effect the chain gives in the end.

Easiest thing is just to move them up and not include a final evolve.

As far as Invisibility goes, Ghost in the Shell had Thermoptic Camouflage. That was computer controlled but considering the (-punk) aesthetic you are aiming for I would have thought the best cyberpunk series ever made would have some influence especially considering it is about cyborgs...

Ooh, ok.  Works for me.  I don't know anything about Ghost in the Shell... I don't follow anime/manga stuff at all.

The big issue with making mirror image, etherealness and invisibility bio evolves is twofold. First there is a desperate lack of mechano evolves at the moment and second, what should mechano be better at?

Bio gets poison, extra movement modes (their flight is better too, manoeuvrability is much better than speed. who needs 300' move speed if the battlefield is 60' across?) Regeneration (with no negating factor... so invulnerability), more natural attacks and increased reach (both better than doing damage as other materials)

Mechano needs some abilities that match these, at the moment the only thing it has better is Damage reduction vs AC and even then that doesn't scale that well. Energy resistance is nice but should probably be for all energy types rather than pick one, just because nobody wants to waste all their class features on getting resistances that are generally not that hard to obtain in 3.5.

It should also probably have ability score boosting evolves like the bio has, machinery can make you stronger or more dexterous (probably make bio STR/DEX/CON/CHA and Mechano STR/DEX/CON/INT) These probably need a boost anyway, nobody is going to use up 2 levels worth of evolves for a +1 bonus. I would say +2 at I +4 at II and +6 at III wouldn't be bad, sure if you put all of your evolves into STR then you could have +72 STR but you are also incapable of doing anything approaching useful with it anyway.

I would also think about some sort of inherent ability for getting to the next stage of evolves, it feels as though at level 10 you fundamentally change instantly. Possibly give some minor aberration/construct trait when you get your first level I evolve bump next stage down to level 8 to match the level II evolve and some additional trait when you get level III that isn't already covered (some construct immunity that living constructs don't have for example... Immunity to Mind affecting). I think it would make the class flow better even if its not a great ability

I like all these suggestions.  They will happen.

[littha]

Ooh, ok.  Works for me.  I don't know anything about Ghost in the Shell... I don't follow anime/manga stuff at all.

I know this is the standard fanboy response but I would heavily recommend it even to people who don't really like anime. Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex is a truly brilliant series and I have seen it in lists of the top crime drama series ever made next to things like wallander and inspector morse. It is especially good if you are into cyberpunk and has a sort of blade runner feel to it at time. Blade runner is more dystopian but they follow a similar central premise of what measure of man is human.

[/derail]

Sorry about that, i do get a little carried away some times.

[sirpercival]

Well, I can definitely look into it. 

BTW, the no-drawback regeneration was an error, I fixed it by explicitly stating fire/acid damage.

[sirpercival]

OK, I think that addresses everything you suggested.  Done!

[littha]

Those are significantly better and now there is a definite reason to use the mechanosynth rather than taking the biosynth route every time.

I am not sure that the armblade needs to be an evolve rather than just a choice (like the bio choice between bite and claw) without exotic weapon proficiency the top damage you will get out of a usable weapon is 1d8 (like the bite). With exotic weapons you could hit 1d10 with a bastard sword which is nice but nothing that improved natural attack couldn't have done anyway. The Armbolt is a significant upgrade and should be an evolve (probably a level I though) but needs some added stats like ranged increment and the time it takes to attach it (free to attach and standard to remove would be useful).

The bonus for having the armbolt at level 1 is that you can then have a level 2, 3 and final evolve that improve it in some way. Possibly multiple, you could have an evolve that makes it a line attack or one that makes it fire exploding blasts. A final evolve along these lines would have to be pretty spectacular, level 20 characters should be a little over the top though...

The only issue I still see is the damage output of either type, they seem to inherit the monk's damage output (especially considering the 3/4 BAB) and as they don't really have that much else to add to combat i could see them falling behind rather quickly. Both types have superb defensive abilities at this point and at low levels the natural attacks will help lots.

Anyway, do tell me if I am harping on. Its your class and I do get carried away with advice on occasion.

[sirpercival]

No, I really appreciate input/feedback.  Sometimes I can get caught up in trap abilities, so balancing suggestions are very helpful.

I can make the armblade an evolution 0 option, that's not a problem, and the armbolt can then be moved up.  I'll add extra stats, and improving evolves.  (BTW: armbolt = megaman?  ) 

As for damage output... as I was writing it I saw this more as a skillmonkey class than a combat class, particularly the biosynth.  Do you think the damage output needs to be upped?

[littha]

Armbolt could equal a lot of things... megaman, iron man, dr doom or the Terminatrix from terminator 3. As far as classes go, skillmonkey is not a great direction, 4+int skills suggests something more like ranger than rogue especially considering there is not that many reasons to invest in Int for this class.

Biosynth probably wants an evolve that gives bonus land move speed.

[Sneaky_Sable]

When I picture the "Armblade" and the Mechanosynth, I can't help but think of the Guyver.

[sirpercival]

OK, I upped damage output, moved armblade to evolution 0, moved armbolt to stage I, and added stage II, III, and final evolves for the armbolt.  Feedback?

[littha]

Those are excellent changes, I especially like the final evolve. This probably needs playtesting now before anything else can be done to it, the only things I can see left to do are numbers tweaks which are nigh on impossible before seeing them in action.

[phaedrusxy]

Does all this stuff really have to have an evolutionary theme for the nomenclature?... This has nothing to do with evolution... even in the experimental laboratory sense... This is all about cybernetics (in the popular sense of the word), biomechanical engineering, grafts/implants, and bionics (again, the popular usage). Artificial selection is called "breeding", and it's been used by farmers and horticulturalists for hundreds of years... I don't think that's the technology your cyborgs are using to improve themselves, is it?

[Sneaky_Sable]

True, but I don't want to have to wait hundreds of years for my +2 Strength or my Armblade

Besides, "Evolution" could be considered a placeholder. It could easily be called "Conscious Metamorphosis" or "Deliberate Evolution" or "Chicken Soup". Evolution is just a really cool word. It sure beats calling it "Intelligent Redesign" or something.

But moving on from that, the Biomancer's adaptations could very easily be called "Mutations" while the Mechanosynth's adaptations could be named "Upgrades", but then you might as well make two separate classes. Turn the Mechanosynth into a more dedicated combat machine (no pun intended) by upping the Hit Dice and enhancing the base attack progression.

[sirpercival]

Does all this stuff really have to have an evolutionary theme for the nomenclature?... This has nothing to do with evolution... even in the experimental laboratory sense... This is all about cybernetics (in the popular sense of the word), biomechanical engineering, grafts/implants, and bionics (again, the popular usage). Artificial selection is called "breeding", and it's been used by farmers and horticulturalists for hundreds of years... I don't think that's the technology your cyborgs are using to improve themselves, is it?

Well, I can change the name from "artificial selection" to "synthetic selection" if you prefer.  Technically, no it doesn't have to be "evolution"-themed, and honestly most of the people who are NOT synthevolvers think it's all bogus (and some think it's gross).  But if you're some kid who's considering whether or not to do this stuff, which is more likely to convince you?

(a) "Hey, man, we're awesome because we graft all this shit into our body and we can do cool shit with it."

(b) "Hey, man, we're awesome because we're trying to reach the next stage of evolution through our own free will and choices, rather than just leaving it to mother nature in, like, a billion years.  The future is NOW, man."

Granted that the guy selling both pitches sounds like an idiot, but you get the idea.

[phaedrusxy]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I just believe this goes beyond "evolution". I'd suggest calling the base class something like "Transcendant", since what they're really doing is transcending the bounds of what evolution can do, and going beyond that.

And I'm actually an enthusiastic supporter of the idea... in real life. If you haven't, check out some of Ray Kurzweil's works. You might pick up some cool ideas for terminology from his books/website/blog/etc.

I know the term transcendence is usually paired more with ideas of a spiritual/metaphysical nature. So maybe call it a Physical Transcendant, or some cooler sounding variant of that, to clarify that it is transcendence with a focus on the physical, rather than spiritual/mental.

[Sneaky_Sable]

I'm inclined to disagree, on the nature of the term Transcendence, since this isn't about improving the spiritual aspect, but solely on the physical. Now, I know you mentioned that this is "like" transcendence, and even suggested a rename based on it, but that's not what this class is about.

The synthevolver isn't about gaining inner peace or achieving spiritual one'ness with the grand banana. It's about improving on a design that, in their minds, creation left unfinished. It's conscious evolution or physical improvement, it's about grafting metal and iron onto flesh and bone to embrace the perfection of steel. It's about removing your eyeballs and replacing them with elf eyes because of the inherent perfection of the elven form.

I don't mean to shoot down your suggestion, and it sounds like a lot of who-hah for a simple word, but that simple word has the potential to completely re-imagine what the class is about. It takes it from folks who are out to improve on an imperfect design for their own betterment, to something of a pseudo-religious cult. And I'll say it again, I mean no disrespect to something you believe in. I'm sorry if it comes off that way, I just really don't think that applying even the illusion of metaphysical transcendence has any place in this class, based on the design thus far.


Total aside: Your avatar is pretty boss.

[phaedrusxy]

I'm inclined to disagree, on the nature of the term Transcendence, since this isn't about improving the spiritual aspect, but solely on the physical. Now, I know you mentioned that this is "like" transcendence, and even suggested a rename based on it, but that's not what this class is about.

The synthevolver isn't about gaining inner peace or achieving spiritual one'ness with the grand banana. It's about improving on a design that, in their minds, creation left unfinished. It's conscious evolution or physical improvement, it's about grafting metal and iron onto flesh and bone to embrace the perfection of steel. It's about removing your eyeballs and replacing them with elf eyes because of the inherent perfection of the elven form.

I don't mean to shoot down your suggestion, and it sounds like a lot of who-hah for a simple word, but that simple word has the potential to completely re-imagine what the class is about. It takes it from folks who are out to improve on an imperfect design for their own betterment, to something of a pseudo-religious cult. And I'll say it again, I mean no disrespect to something you believe in. I'm sorry if it comes off that way, I just really don't think that applying even the illusion of metaphysical transcendence has any place in this class, based on the design thus far.

But that sounds like exactly what he's going for, with his allusions to Evolution... except evolution really has nothing to do with it...

The people entering this class are trying to improve themselves beyond the normal physical limitations of their forms (i.e. they're trying to transcend their physical forms). They're not doing it through evolution. They're doing it through the deliberate application of technology.

Ray Kurzwiel has a book called Transcend: Nine Steps to Living Well Forever which is exactly about living long enough to achieve what this class wants to do, and which is why I suggested the name.

Like I said in my edit, I know that "transcendence" normally has a connotation of spiritual/mental/metaphysical reality, but it doesn't have to... and using the word to describe a physical transcendence could also be seen as a wholesale rejection of the previous usages of the word, and the ideas behind them. The real way to transcend isn't to sit in a cave and contemplate your navel. It is to realistically assess your plight in the real world, and do what you can to overcome it.


What about as an alternative, something like "Transynth" or "Transyndant", to also capture the fact that they are aiming to transcend through "synthetic" means?

[Sneaky_Sable]

But that sounds like exactly what he's going for, with his allusions to Evolution... except evolution really has nothing to do with it...

The people entering this class are trying to improve themselves beyond the normal physical limitations of their forms (i.e. they're trying to transcend their physical forms). They're not doing it through evolution. They're doing it through the deliberate application of technology.

Now that's just an argument of semantics. They're consciously evolving though the usage of technology to proceed to their next step, or they're applying technology to emulate spontaneous evolution. You and I and Percival can discuss this for days, until we all can build a character that proves our point is the true and proper point. This is a role playing aspect on a character to character basis, not an overarching class design.

Ray Kurzwiel has a book called Transcend: Nine Steps to Living Well Forever which is exactly about living long enough to achieve what this class wants to do, and which is why I suggested the name.

Oh nice, another book to add to the reading queue.

Like I said in my edit, I know that "transcendence" normally has a connotation of spiritual/mental/metaphysical reality, but it doesn't have to... and using the word to describe a physical transcendence could also be seen as a wholesale rejection of the previous usages of the word, and the ideas behind them. The real way to transcend isn't to sit in a cave and contemplate your navel. It is to realistically assess your plight in the real world, and do what you can to overcome it.

There's a Siddhartha on line one. He's calling from his fig tree to speak to you.

What about as an alternative, something like "Transynth" or "Transyndant", to also capture the fact that they are aiming to transcend through "synthetic" means?

We could call them Perfectionyths, or Evolutionyths, or DNAblers, or a hundred other things. Synthevolver works inherantly because it implies Synthetic Evolution, consciously taking control of the path you, as a member of your species, will take to adapt to the surroundings around you. The adaptations are so plentiful to allow for variation. No two synthevolvers will be the same since they will adapt to their environment and surroundings differently. If there was one singular progression that ended with all Synthevolvers becoming one supreme being at the end, then Transcendence would be a more fitting... fit.

However, that's not the case. This is consciously building to perfect yourself in response to your surroundings or the stimuli that you react to. You replace your flesh with metal to endure the hardships that befall you. You replace your nervous system with fiber optic cable since you need to react to the world around you faster. What drives a man to rip off his own hand and replace it with a phased plasma cannon? He's got a plan for himself, and it may not be the same plan as the guy next to him, who just wants to be pretty.

[phaedrusxy]

But that sounds like exactly what he's going for, with his allusions to Evolution... except evolution really has nothing to do with it...

The people entering this class are trying to improve themselves beyond the normal physical limitations of their forms (i.e. they're trying to transcend their physical forms). They're not doing it through evolution. They're doing it through the deliberate application of technology.

Now that's just an argument of semantics.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. We're discussing whether the words used to describe this class are being used correctly or not. That is by definition a discussion of sematics, which is defined as:

the study of language with special concern for the meanings of words or other symbols.

So yes, thanks for confirming what my criticism of the class is about.

They're consciously evolving though the usage of technology to proceed to their next step, or they're applying technology to emulate spontaneous evolution. You and I and Percival can discuss this for days, until we all can build a character that proves our point is the true and proper point. This is a role playing aspect on a character to character basis, not an overarching class design.

But they're not "evolving", as evolving is defined as selection for heritable changes over multiple generations. This is something they're doing to themselves as individuals, which is not heritable. They're not modifying their DNA, they're grafting a rocket laucher onto their arm. If I have a prosthetic limb, it doesn't mean my offspring will be born with one as well. So evolution is a misnomer.

Ray Kurzwiel has a book called Transcend: Nine Steps to Living Well Forever which is exactly about living long enough to achieve what this class wants to do, and which is why I suggested the name.

Oh nice, another book to add to the reading queue.

See you on the other side, brother. Maybe I'll sell you some nanobots in a couple hundred years. 

Like I said in my edit, I know that "transcendence" normally has a connotation of spiritual/mental/metaphysical reality, but it doesn't have to... and using the word to describe a physical transcendence could also be seen as a wholesale rejection of the previous usages of the word, and the ideas behind them. The real way to transcend isn't to sit in a cave and contemplate your navel. It is to realistically assess your plight in the real world, and do what you can to overcome it.

There's a Siddhartha on line one. He's calling from his fig tree to speak to you.

Siddhartha is wormfood. He's not calling anyone.

What about as an alternative, something like "Transynth" or "Transyndant", to also capture the fact that they are aiming to transcend through "synthetic" means?

We could call them Perfectionyths, or Evolutionyths, or DNAblers, or a hundred other things. Synthevolver works inherantly because it implies Synthetic Evolution, consciously taking control of the path you, as a member of your species, will take to adapt to the surroundings around you. The adaptations are so plentiful to allow for variation. No two synthevolvers will be the same since they will adapt to their environment and surroundings differently. If there was one singular progression that ended with all Synthevolvers becoming one supreme being at the end, then Transcendence would be a more fitting... fit.

However, that's not the case. This is consciously building to perfect yourself in response to your surroundings or the stimuli that you react to. You replace your flesh with metal to endure the hardships that befall you. You replace your nervous system with fiber optic cable since you need to react to the world around you faster. What drives a man to rip off his own hand and replace it with a phased plasma cannon? He's got a plan for himself, and it may not be the same plan as the guy next to him, who just wants to be pretty.

This is a more convincing argument. I was just offering alternative themes, which might not be so... unpalatable... to people who actually study and/or understand biology or evolution. And yeah, I understand that it's not a big deal to misuse things in the context of a made-up class for a fantasy gaming system... but I'd still like to see a more correct understanding of evolution and biological systems make its way into the popular culture, instead of the garbage pushed by things like comic books. It might help inspire young people to become interested in real science.

[Sneaky_Sable]

Yes, that's exactly what it is. We're discussing whether the words used to describe this class are being used correctly or not. That is by definition a discussion of sematics, which is defined as ...  So yes, thanks for confirming what my criticism of the class is about.

Your criticism of the class is about the word to be used to describe the class, and the word that you're backing is a word that you have a particularly strong attachment to, and you are attempting to submit that the entire class name and, potentially, their implied position should be altered because you like the word. We aren't arguing semantics, we're essentially arguing religion at this point. More on this later.

But they're not "evolving", as evolving is defined as selection for heritable changes over multiple generations. This is something they're doing to themselves as individuals, which is not heritable. They're not modifying their DNA, they're grafting a rocket laucher onto their arm. If I have a prosthetic limb, it doesn't mean my offspring will be born with one as well. So evolution is a misnomer.

Hence, 'synth' evolver. Synthetic. Fake.

See you on the other side, brother. Maybe I'll sell you some nanobots in a couple hundred years. 

Nah, I'll consciously evolve myself some right now........ keen.

Siddhartha is wormfood. He's not calling anyone.

Tell that to a buddhist.

This is a more convincing argument. I was just offering alternative themes, which might not be so... unpalatable... to people who actually study and/or understand biology or evolution. And yeah, I understand that it's not a big deal to misuse things in the context of a made-up class for a fantasy gaming system... but I'd still like to see a more correct understanding of evolution and biological systems make its way into the popular culture, instead of the garbage pushed by things like comic books. It might help inspire young people to become interested in real science.

You're offering biased alternatives, though. Has there been a sudden outbreak of Christians playing D&D wondering where the stats are for d20 Jesus? Do Muslims who play d20 future wonder about the plight of Mecca?

Does anyone who plays any role playing game (aside from Rolemaster or Traveller) really concern themselves THAT much with the validity and scientific accuracy of a game that includes dragons, demons, giant worm thingies, telepathic grass, tentacle monsters, and moles with psychic powers?

Really?

[phaedrusxy]

OK... I'm going to just bow out of the discussion about the name.


Now back to a discussion of the mechanics: I haven't done build comparisons or anything, but it seems to me that this class will likely come up short when compared to the Morphling, which I think is kind of along the same lines as far as what they're doing (transformational classes).

At 9th level, the morphling is going to have fast healing, immunity to stunning and moderate fortification, some decent stat boosts, and the ability to transform into huge combat forms with augmented natural weaponry. Just from looking over the "evolves" for this class, I think it is going to wind up coming up short in comparison. And to add further insult to injury, this guy's choices are going to be fixed, while the morphling can change his on the fly.