General Discussion and Sugestions

[Anomander]

Alright, I'll take a diff take on them.

Doesn't change the part where the characters you like just happen to be the protagonists of the latest titles.

Not really. I didn't give you a list of the characters I liked.

You asked me why I gave attention to characters of the latest games and I told you why. It wasn't on purpose.
I was working on a remilia/flandre (even though I don't really like remilia) discipline before you posted yours, if that somehow eases your mind on the matter.

[Anomander]

After beating 13.5, I'm even more primed on the idea of a Nitori/Byakuren (my best character) discipline. Love Miko's cape, btw.
I've toyed with the idea of Hata no Kokoro being the basis of a forbidden school for Desire Drive, seeing the whole Mask of Hope plot, but figured that Parsee's Green Jealousy might be more appropriate thematically, being super jealous being sort of the opposite direction of ignoring one's desires.

Might be working on that slowly over the next few months.

[Raineh Daze]

... Parsee has nothing to do with Taoism. And please don't do anything weird with Byakuren. :<

[Anomander]

It should have something to do with Taoism?

I mean, does Mystia Lorelei have something to do with history?
Otherwise, don't worry. I grow bored with things rather quickly.

[Raineh Daze]

It should have something to do with Taoism?

I mean, does Mystia Lorelei have something to do with history?

I think the justification for that one is that they're both youkai with one stage between them.

Connection between Parsee and Taoism is strenuous, since she wouldn't make sense to work on the same mechanic. :|

[Anomander]

It does have a connection in totally opposing its teachings.

I doubt being both youkai with one stage between them is the reason or a justification. One seeks reason in facts and records, the other is wild and seeks discord and confusion. They sort of are opposites.
The other forbidden school toys around two approaches to eternity.
Considering the different ways forbidden schools are being made, it seems like there is no one correct approach besides it being a different take on the prime ideal of the base discipline.

[Raineh Daze]

I think we need a new base race. Specifically, the Lunarians. Also the Moon Rabbits, possibly (as they're not just youkai rabbits).

Suppose you could use AA for the latter, but still. Lunarians.

[Atmo]

Waiting for a Wolf Tengu's race or school.

[oslecamo]

Well, seems like I'll have to make a races thread at this rate.

Does Momiji even has spellcards tough?

On other news, I have like half a dozen new Tobhou school drafts but seem unable to actually focus on one to finish it. But I seem to have managed to settle on Komachi now that I've come up with a couple signature mechanics for it. She'll come with a yugoloth monster class included.

[Raineh Daze]

... What does Komachi have to do with Neutral Evil outsiders?

[oslecamo]

She's the freaking boatwoman of the  big underworld River. That's the yugoloth's job in D&D cosmology.

There's also the "Death God from Hell that royally screws over poor families while wasting piles of cash herself" aspect.

[Raineh Daze]

Um... you really shouldn't make a character a NE outsider because D&D gave NE outsiders the same job. That just doesn't make sense at all. :/

Second paragraph doesn't even sound like it's referring to the same series.

[oslecamo]

Please, just check Komachi's official profile:

When a person dies, their spirit must cross the river to the Netherworld. It is Komachi's duty to ferry the dead across the river. The width and depth of the river changes depending on her mood. Also, if someone has done too much evil during their lifetime, they may even not be able to cross the river.

A shinigami judges one to be good or bad not by the amount of crimes, but by money. That is to say, not the money that the deceased may have had while they were alive, but rather the total amount of those who yearned and missed that person from the bottom of their hearts.

So your village/city/country was razed to the ground and your family and friends lost everything they had? Nobody that cares about you has any money, so Komachi deems you evil to the extreme, and you're in for a long journey.

But if you're the leader of a powerful cult that worships your person? Plenty of people with money will mourn your passing, and Komachi deems you a paragon of goodness, enjoy your quick trip whitout trouble even if you ate babies for breakfast.

And then there's this part from her profile:

Komachi always demands those she guides to pay all the money they have, and anyone who hesitates to pay the full sum is dropped into the river midway through the journey. The river is made infinitely wide, and the unfortunate spirit is soon consumed by huge fishes and sea dinosaurs which were extinct in world of the living.

Just hesitate to pay Komachi's fee, and she'll feed you to giant pre-historic sharks. It's hard to get more Neutral Evil than this if you ask me.

Basically, Komachi is a woman of business, and all she really cares is geting paid. Miss even a cent of your payment? She gets rid of you whitout remorse.

[Raineh Daze]

Okay, so the first part: if nobody misses you (which is more what that seems to be getting at), then you have a long trip. Not the amount of wealth they have, but how many people miss you. Okay, if you're the last to die, that sucks, but what else have you got to do?

And if you, being dead, refuse to pay, you get dumped in the river. Seems a fairly logical conclusion--you're dead, what else are you supposed to do with the money? Besides, I think that's a reference to traditionally putting six coins in a casket. In other words, the money you'd have on you and not be paying? That's only there to pay her. Doesn't reflect on you if you're too selfish and greedy to pay your fare.

So, not neutral evil. I'd say Lawful Neutral, if not for the fact that she can't be bothered to do her job half the time.

Also, it doesn't really matter how shinigami judge good/evil (and if it's judged so bizarrely, it's kind of hard to describe them as 'embodiments of evil as a cosmic force'), since all that affects is the trip. It's still the Yama on the other end that determines the afterlife. And you're dead. What else have you got to do?

[oslecamo]

Okay, so the first part: if nobody misses you (which is more what that seems to be getting at), then you have a long trip. Not the amount of wealth they have, but how many people miss you. Okay, if you're the last to die, that sucks, but what else have you got to do?

Read it again. It's the money that counts (I even bolded it). Not your own money, but the money from the people that cared about you.

Also, it doesn't really matter how shinigami judge good/evil (and if it's judged so bizarrely, it's kind of hard to describe them as 'embodiments of evil as a cosmic force'), since all that affects is the trip. It's still the Yama on the other end that determines the afterlife. And you're dead. What else have you got to do?

That's the thing-if you don't get to the other side, you don't get judged, you don't get a shot at afterlife, and spend eternity being chewed by giant sharks.

Not because you didn't pay.

Just because you hesitated to pay Komachi.

[Raineh Daze]

Actually, I've found a more coherent translation.

A shinigami judges one to be good or bad not by the amount of crimes, but by money. That is to say, not the money that the deceased may have had while they were alive, but rather the total amount of those who yearned and missed that person from the bottom of their hearts. By the way, judging the amount of crimes of the dead is not Komachi's job and would be handled after crossing the river, but that's a story for another time.
After death, when she requests a passage fee from them, people tend to be surprised since the money they have on hand doesn't correspond to their own assets, but on the assets of his or her surrounding friends.
Very rich people tend to be despised during their life, and are astonished to see how little they have after death.
Komachi always demands those she guides to pay all the money they have, and anyone who hesitates to pay the full sum is dropped into the river midway through the journey. The river is made infinitely wide, and the unfortunate spirit is soon consumed by huge fishes and water dragon which were extinct in world of the living.

'Hesitates to pay the full sum' is vague--it could mean trying to bargain her down, or withhold money. It's a stretch to assume that it's simply 'doesn't immediately hand everything over'. And, again, you're dead. You're dead, and your spirit has come to the banks of the Sanzu River in order to cross, be judged, and reincarnate/whatever. There is no possible reason to want to cling to the money you unexpectedly have X amount of other than avarice.

Also, to say 'the complete razing of a village means that you have no money and therefore can't cross and therefore Neutral Evil'  and 'if you have a cult of millions, therefore you quickly cross and therefore Neutral Evil' is assigning ZUN considerably more forethought than is honestly likely. It's also assuming that the shinigami has a damn clue what's going on in the mortal world. Imperfect rule to judge how long someone's journey should be? Yes. Entirely for selfish reasons? Nope.

Using a somewhat awkward rule because that's the way things are done isn't Neutral Evil, it's LN.

And I still say that someone that slacks off all the time doesn't really fit the 'NE, all-about-business' mould very well.

There's also her SWR profile:

(click to show/hide)

　　Personality: good-natured, but laid back.
　　　She clearly has a very "Edoite"-like good nature about her.
　　　She tends to slack off from work a lot, but never acts bad-natured about it.
　　　Enjoys riling up her opponents and telling anecdotes.
　　　Not all shinigami are like this; this is her own personality.
　　　There are various different types of shinigami.

... really, a yugoloth?

[oslecamo]

'Hesitates to pay the full sum' is vague--it could mean trying to bargain her down, or withhold money. It's a stretch to assume that it's simply 'doesn't immediately hand everything over'. And, again, you're dead. You're dead, and your spirit has come to the banks of the Sanzu River in order to cross, be judged, and reincarnate/whatever. There is no possible reason to want to cling to the money you unexpectedly have X amount of other than avarice.

In all games that Komachi shows up it's pointed out the spirits of the recently dead are quite confused beings and take some time to realize what's hapening to them. Extorting them of their money and expecting them to just blindly acept is not exactly nice if you ask me. Punishing them with eternal purgation whitout any shot at redemption just because of some spare change is definetely evil.

Also, to say 'the complete razing of a village means that you have no money and therefore can't cross and therefore Neutral Evil'  and 'if you have a cult of millions, therefore you quickly cross and therefore Neutral Evil' is assigning ZUN considerably more forethought than is honestly likely. It's also assuming that the shinigami has a damn clue what's going on in the mortal world. Imperfect rule to judge how long someone's journey should be? Yes. Entirely for selfish reasons? Nope.

Using a somewhat awkward rule because that's the way things are done isn't Neutral Evil, it's LN.

It is evil when you're profiting from it and don't move a single finger to try to change it. "Just doing my job" is a quite common excuse by evil doers. Komachi's happy with a flawed system because she gets to fill her pockets with it, and can even choose when to "work".

And I still say that someone that slacks off all the time doesn't really fit the 'NE, all-about-business' mould very well.

If she didn't slack off, then she would simply be LE. Being Neutral Evil means caring about your own well being above everything else. She knows she can slack off because she has a safe job position, so she slacks off regardless of dead spirits piling up across the land and royally screwing over the death-life balance.

There's also her SWR profile:

(click to show/hide)

　　Personality: good-natured, but laid back.
　　　She clearly has a very "Edoite"-like good nature about her.
　　　She tends to slack off from work a lot, but never acts bad-natured about it.
　　　Enjoys riling up her opponents and telling anecdotes.
　　　Not all shinigami are like this; this is her own personality.
　　　There are various different types of shinigami.

... really, a yugoloth?

A somewhat excentric Yugoloth yes, but still extorting the confused souls of the dead for her fun and profit in a murky business.

[Raineh Daze]

You're grasping at straws.

The money they have exists entirely to pay Komachi. There is no other reason for the souls of the dead to have money. It corresponds to the assets of those that miss them--but that doesn't mean that it's other people's money.

Komachi, similarly, has absolutely no need for it. What, exactly, is a functionally immortal ferryman of the dead going to spend money on?

It looks symbolic: the more people that miss you in life, the more money you have, the shorter your journey is. You pay the ferryman for passage with the money you have that exists entirely to pay the ferryman passage.

Eiki is annoyed with Komachi for slacking off, not for losing spirits in the river, so it's not something that's happening much, confusion or not.

Therefore, 'evil' is stretching it, and deciding that shinigami, part of the natural order of life--because seriously, that's exactly what they exist for--are therefore embodiments of evil is just plain ridiculous.

But whatever, this argument obviously isn't worth it.

You can count the likely evil things in Touhou on one hand--Mima and Yuuka probably are, then there's the Saigyou Ayakashi, which has no particular reason for killing people other than it can. Could possibly fit Rukia in if 'diet consists of people' equals 'inherently evil' when it's not human to start with. :/

[Atmo]

Well, seems like I'll have to make a races thread at this rate.

Does Momiji even has spellcards tough?

On other news, I have like half a dozen new Tobhou school drafts but seem unable to actually focus on one to finish it. But I seem to have managed to settle on Komachi now that I've come up with a couple signature mechanics for it. She'll come with a yugoloth monster class included.

Two: Dog Sign "Rabies Bite" and Mountain Nomad "Expellee's Canaan".

[Raineh Daze]

Well, seems like I'll have to make a races thread at this rate.

Does Momiji even has spellcards tough?

On other news, I have like half a dozen new Tobhou school drafts but seem unable to actually focus on one to finish it. But I seem to have managed to settle on Komachi now that I've come up with a couple signature mechanics for it. She'll come with a yugoloth monster class included.

Two: Dog Sign "Rabies Bite" and Mountain Nomad "Expellee's Canaan".

Unfortunately, nowhere near enough to do much with.