Author Topic: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming  (Read 16027 times)

Offline sirpercival

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Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« on: October 18, 2012, 09:59:21 PM »
OK, so let's start it off with this:

The epic rules suck.  Most epic options are either useless or broken, and epic challenges (including the gods and other badass beasties) are poorly optimized and not at all representative of what they're supposed to be.

So, the idea I had is this: what if we redo all of it?  Make a campaign setting which actually allows for high level and epic play in an awesome context.  I love Planescape, and it has the basis for everything I want: powerful entities, dangerous locations, incredible flavor.  Let's write it up the way it should be written.

This is an ambitious project, and I hope people will help with it.  My plan is to use Libertad's Planar Revision Project as a springboard to write up consistent fluff for the high-level denizens of each plane, and construct a true campaign setting.  At the same time, we'll make changes to the non-epic mechanics to support a set of epic and deific mechanics that keep the idea of Epic play without the broken and useless.

I've already begun on the latter part (changes to non-epic mechanics), which I will post tomorrow, after some sleep.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2012, 10:02:03 AM »
Saving this here, with slight tweaks.
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« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 12:03:40 PM by Prime32 »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2012, 10:52:16 AM »
The first thing that needs to be fixed is magic (and its derivatives).  High level non-epic wizards can already do pretty much anything, and break the game in numerous ways, which makes it extremely difficult to (a) work out epic magic in any useful way, and (b) have epic challenges that are anything other than ridiculous numbers.

The best and most thorough way to fix this would be to rebuild the magic system from the ground up, so that epic magic progression is a natural extension of the system.  However, at that point, it's not even D&D anymore, and this project is ambitious enough without writing an entire new game system.  So, I'm going for more superficial changes.  Most of the changes to non-epic mechanics I'll be making are an attempt to regress toward the mean, which I'm setting at around tier 3.  This means weakening the tier 1 classes, and improving tier 4/5/6 classes, to get everyone into tier 2-4.

I've made a list of the problematic types of spells which need to be altered, and the changes I'll be implementing to fix them, with the goal of un-breaking high-level spellcasting:
  • Action generation & interruption - Spells which generate actions, like Time Stop & Celerity, will be limited in what types of activities you can use those actions for.  Spells which interrupt other actions (like Wings of Cover) will be specific in the type of effects they interrupt (no one has a problem with Feather Fall, for example).
  • Polymorph spells - Use the PF Metamorphosis chain instead, since it allows for modularity, power, and keeps the flavor of the spells without being uber haxxorz.
  • Planar Ally/Binding/Calling - To call a creature, you must know its specific name (divination, knowledge, etc); no calling generic creatures.  Once you've called it, there's no compulsion of service -- you have to negotiate the terms, and the creature will always require you to complete a specific task, of the same magnitude of whatever it is you're asking it to do.
  • Teleportation - There will be distance limitations, which can be bypassed with waypoints.  In addition, we'll be using this Plane Shift variant.
  • Spells which break WBL - Magic items will be decoupled from mundane wealth, so no one really cares about these.
  • "Choose your spell" effects - Wish, Limited Wish, Miracle, Reality Revision, Bend Reality are all removed.  There's really no way not to break the game by using these; they're plot devices, not spells.
  • Shadowcrafting - As a subset of the above, this is no longer "choose your spell".  Instead, it has a modular set of possible effects.
  • Divinations - Foretelling divinations grant you a series of omens (like tarot cards or zodiac signs) which grant you bonuses when the conditions of the omens are met.  Higher level = more omens.  Scrying requires stronger connections, and has distance limitations; you can't scry off-plane.  Scrying spell level determines the connection strength required and the distance limit.
Psionics are being fixed as well:
  • Linked Power does not exist; in fact, most of Complete Psionic is out, as either crappy or broken.
  • Action economy breakers - Just like for spells, these are limited to specific types of activities that the actions can be used for.
  • Recharge - You can't regain pp that you've spent.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2012, 11:01:56 AM »
Next, we have to make changes to classes.  The high-tier classes require the most work:
  • All casters are spontaneous, but can prepare spells if they wish (for metamagic purposes).
  • Wizard & sorcerer are replaced by a single full-casting arcane base class, the Mage.  Mage gains a familiar and chooses one of the following specializations:
    • 1) Warmage (blasting & bfc spells)
    • 2) Necromancer (undead & debuff spells)
    • 3) Beguiler (enchantment & illusion spells)
    • 4) Thaumaturge (transmutation & divination spells)
    • 5) Summoner (summoning & calling spells)
    • 6) Spellknight (buffs & abjuration spells)
    The Mage knows all spells on its list of the appropriate levels.  Then it gets class features a la the specialist variants, and bonus metamagic feats. To make the class feature exchange cleaner, I'm considering just making 6 classes instead of 1, but we'll see how it goes.
  • Clerics only know spells from their domains (and know all spells of the appropriate levels from their domains).  They gain domains like Ardents gain mantles.  In addition to the domain powers, clerics can choose divine feats or archivist-style class features.  (Archivist and Favored Soul do not exist; Healers are redundant.)
  • Druid spells are Primal instead of Divine, and have a significantly reduced spell list.  They get Drift (a la geomancer), genius loci abilities, and the abilities Prime32 posted above.
  • Artificers don't get spells 2 levels early.  In addition, they pick one spell list at 1st level and 1 additional list every 5 levels after.  They can only craft items with spells from their lists.

For most of the low-tier classes, we can simply use homebrewed fixes or other exchanges:
  • Fighter = Warblade (can take fighter-only feats at =level)
  • Monk = Swordsage
  • Ranger = Sublime Ranger [sirp]
  • Rogue = Sublime Rogue [sirp]
  • Paladin = Thaumurai [sirp]
  • Samurai = Kensei of 5 rings [travellog]
  • Barbarian = War-Frenzy [agita+veekie]
  • Soulknife = Invoking Soulknife [garryl]
  • Knight = Crusader
  • Scout = Wardancer [sirp]
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 11:13:06 AM »
Logistically, my plan is this:
  • A thread for non-epic global mechanics changes and rewritten spells
  • A thread full of class fixes (mostly the tier 1 changes above, along with links to homebrewed fixes for the low-tier stuff)
  • A thread for the rewritten epic mechanics
  • A thread for epic material (classes, feats, etc.)
  • A thread for the rewritten deific mechanics
  • One thread for each plane, containing fluff, plane-specific mechanics, and writeups of the important inhabitants.
Any issues with this?
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 11:21:10 AM »
This is a truly ambitious but exciting undertaking... and I can't believe I'd never looked at the PF/DSP Metamorphosis fixes. Those are awesome! Very similar to my own homebrewed fixes, except I  made mine all castable on other people (I don't see the need for most powerful effects to be self-only).

I'll try to help out as I can, but my time is limited.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 11:26:58 AM »
Oh yes, they can be used on others.  I meant the effects.

And I'm glad you're on board in some way!  Lol.  Maybe I can use your Mindscapes stuff for the plane of dreams?
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2012, 11:28:50 AM »
Maybe I can use your Mindscapes stuff for the plane of dreams?

Absolutely. :D

For your mage/specialist casters, Robbypants' Witch might fit. I think you'll be better off making separate classes with "themes" rather than trying to make one modular class. The beguiler, dread necro, and other such classes give you good examples.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2012, 11:40:49 AM »
Maybe I can use your Mindscapes stuff for the plane of dreams?

Absolutely. :D

For your mage/specialist casters, Robbypants' Witch might fit. I think you'll be better off making separate classes with "themes" rather than trying to make one modular class. The beguiler, dread necro, and other such classes give you good examples.

I was thinking of  just taking Beguiler & DN as-is, and then writing the rest.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2012, 11:56:26 AM »
Wow, those PF Metamorphosis powers are nice.

I don't really see what the Plane Shift tweak really does. Sure, planar travel isn't as easy, but it only makes more distant planes cost more castings. It doesn't really limit things, other than making them take longer.

I also don't have as much of a problem with the variable spell effect spells (Shadow Conjuration, etc.). I'd be quite happy with Wish and Miracle and friends if they dumped the "make shit up" clauses, limiting them to just existing lower level spell effects and maybe a couple of thematically appropriate extra options (like crafting magic items you can create without the time, or a mass teleport, or whatever). A lot of things that people think of can be done with existing spells anyways, so the meat of the effect stays close to what's expected. Plus, I like the idea of Swiss Army Knife spells at a higher cost than their more specific cousins (ie: spend a higher level slot for more versatility instead of more power).

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2012, 12:02:51 PM »
So, the idea I had is this: what if we redo all of it?  Make a campaign setting which actually allows for high level and epic play in an awesome context.  I love Planescape, and it has the basis for everything I want: powerful entities, dangerous locations, incredible flavor.  Let's write it up the way it should be written.

This is an ambitious project, and I hope people will help with it.  My plan is to use Libertad's Planar Revision Project as a springboard to write up consistent fluff for the high-level denizens of each plane, and construct a true campaign setting. 
-Claim to want powerful entities, dangerous locations, incredible flavor.
-Starts by picking up a revision that focuses mostly in removing powerful entities(mighty ruler of Sigil? What mighty ruler of Sigil?), dangerous locations(giant yugoloth city-mecha? What giant yugoloth city-mecha?) and dulls the flavor all around to "every  outsider is actually neutral (do whatever is profitable for me now) except they have slightly diferent skin colors/dress codes and world views".

Does not compute to me. If you want the first count me in. If you want the second then I'll just show myself out.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2012, 12:04:15 PM »
I don't really see what the Plane Shift tweak really does. Sure, planar travel isn't as easy, but it only makes more distant planes cost more castings. It doesn't really limit things, other than making them take longer.
That was basically the idea: to make it slightly more difficult (and hopefully interesting) to travel the planes, especially at the earliest levels where that ability comes online. You could still do "scry and die"  tactics against creatures from other planes, but if they are distant, you're going to have to burn through more spell slots to get there. It also makes it possible to have planes which you cannot reach via Plane Shift at all, which is not currently possible without DM fiat.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2012, 12:15:24 PM »
At the very least Miracle should cost XP to replicate a spell just like Wish does.

The Plane Shift tweak is more for flavor than reducing PS's power.

So, the idea I had is this: what if we redo all of it?  Make a campaign setting which actually allows for high level and epic play in an awesome context.  I love Planescape, and it has the basis for everything I want: powerful entities, dangerous locations, incredible flavor.  Let's write it up the way it should be written.

This is an ambitious project, and I hope people will help with it.  My plan is to use Libertad's Planar Revision Project as a springboard to write up consistent fluff for the high-level denizens of each plane, and construct a true campaign setting. 
-Claim to want powerful entities, dangerous locations, incredible flavor.
-Starts by picking up a revision that focuses mostly in removing powerful entities(mighty ruler of Sigil? What mighty ruler of Sigil?), dangerous locations(giant yugoloth city-mecha? What giant yugoloth city-mecha?) and dulls the flavor all around to "every  outsider is actually neutral (do whatever is profitable for me now) except they have slightly diferent skin colors/dress codes and world views".

Does not compute to me. If you want the first count me in. If you want the second then I'll just show myself out.

As I said, I was going to use the PRP as a springboard.  Of course we'll be including the powerful entities, as you pointed out it doesn't make sense otherwise.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2012, 12:23:39 PM »
    Quote
    Spells which break WBL - Magic items will be decoupled from mundane wealth, so no one really cares about these.
    This is not a trivial matter, mechanically or fluff-wise. Do you have an existing system in mind for this? And flavor explanation?

    I remember seeing a system that basically borrowed from Incarnum a bit, in that magic items were powered by your own soul/chakra, which limited the number you could use at once as well as how powerful the effects produced from items "wielded" by you could be.

    Excerpt from my  interpretation of this:
    (click to show/hide)


    And I think the current Knowledge skill rules make no sense at all. Here is my homebrewed version:

    • The knowledge skill works as described in the PHB, except when identifying creatures we're going to use the following modifications:

      (click to show/hide)
    [/list]
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    Offline Garryl

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    Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
    « Reply #14 on: October 19, 2012, 12:51:43 PM »
    At the very least Miracle should cost XP to replicate a spell just like Wish does.

    Perhaps yes, although I think the current 5000xp cost is too prohibitive. It's a full encounter's worth of xp (before dividing it among the party).

    Perhaps something like the following:
    (click to show/hide)

    Edit: Phaedrus, your Knowledge example is wrong. The DC is 3, not 8 (15 - 7 - 5). So Bob actually knows a bit about the dragon's resistances and subtypes just on rote memory, and has a 15% chance of knowing about Scar personally. Fizban will know that reliably (taking 10), and Yoda should know who was invited to Scar's 21st birthday.
    « Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 12:56:52 PM by Garryl »

    Offline oslecamo

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    Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
    « Reply #15 on: October 19, 2012, 12:55:54 PM »
    As I said, I was going to use the PRP as a springboard.  Of course we'll be including the powerful entities, as you pointed out it doesn't make sense otherwise.

    Why not use the official fluff as a springboard? The ideas for powerful entities/locations/stuff are there, not anywhere in PRP I can see.

    Also +1 to how do you intend to "fix" WBL, since that's a can of worms all by itself.

    The best I've seen so far is that the  WBL table values is actually your limit of magic stuff you can use at once. You need to attune to items before using them and that takes time. Consumables  count towards your attunement limits even after you've expended them, and you recover slowly from that (so you can take a few potions per day no problem, but try to spam them and you won't be able to use any magic gear for weeks or even months as you recover)
    « Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 12:57:25 PM by oslecamo »

    Offline phaedrusxy

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    Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
    « Reply #16 on: October 19, 2012, 01:15:12 PM »
    Also +1 to how do you intend to "fix" WBL, since that's a can of worms all by itself.

    The best I've seen so far is that the  WBL table values is actually your limit of magic stuff you can use at once. You need to attune to items before using them and that takes time. Consumables  count towards your attunement limits even after you've expended them, and you recover slowly from that (so you can take a few potions per day no problem, but try to spam them and you won't be able to use any magic gear for weeks or even months as you recover)
    Hmm... I think I like where this is going.

    What if instead of needing to be attuned, and taking up a fraction of your "attunement pool" (i.e. WBL), consumables instead actually lowered your attunement pool by an amount equal to 10x their price when used? And you only recovered this "attunement pool" slowly, like 10% of your WBL per day?

    So if you wanted to use a bunch of consumable items, you could, but you'd have to:

    1) Leave some of your WBL unequipped to "make room" for them.
    2) Your WBL would be lowered after using them by an amount equal to 10x their price (or appropriate fraction thereof for charged items).
    3) If your "attunement pool" dropped below the value of your attuned items, you'd have to choose item(s) to become unattuned.

    Thoughts? Problems with this?


    Edit: Let's look at some examples, to see if my numbers are off.

    Example 1: At 20th level, using a 9th level scroll would lower your attunement pool by 38,250 gp, which is about 5% of your total WBL. So if you went crazy and spammed 10 Gate scrolls before heading into a battle, you'd cut the value of attuned items you could use by half, and it would take 5 days for it to recover fully. So this wouldn't be a sustainable method of combat, but you could use it for the occasional "epic" battle.

    Example 2: At 5th level, a mage has a wand of Fireball. Each charge costs him 2250 off his WBL to use, which is a pretty sizeable chunk of his 9000 gp total. Hmm... that might be a bit too high of a cost for him. Of course, really he shouldn't have such an item to start with (the cost is over 11,000 gp, against his 9,000 gp WBL). So maybe that's not really a problem.

    Example 3: Let's instead give the 5th level Mage above a wand of Grease. 750/50*10 = 150 gp per charge off his WBL, so less than 2%. If he used it once per encounter for 5 encounters, his WBL would be lowered by 10% and would recover the next day. So this would be sustainable for him, which seems about right.

    Phaedrus, your Knowledge example is wrong. The DC is 3, not 8 (15 - 7 - 5). So Bob actually knows a bit about the dragon's resistances and subtypes just on rote memory, and has a 15% chance of knowing about Scar personally. Fizban will know that reliably (taking 10), and Yoda should know who was invited to Scar's 21st birthday.
    Ah crap. I forgot to actually include the -5 for familiarity... Well, I think the system as written is still OK, and definitely an improvement on the current one, which makes no sense. People remember things based on how scary they are, and how common they are. It makes no sense at all for the DC to increase as things get scarier (more hit dice). Farmers definitely know more about wolves than they do about earthworms.
    « Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 01:33:39 PM by phaedrusxy »
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    Offline oslecamo

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    Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
    « Reply #17 on: October 19, 2012, 01:27:39 PM »
    Yeah, 5th level characters shouldn't be using 3rd level wands just yet.

    The problem I see with your version is that it kinda drives players for a toolbox mindset, where you hoard lots of diferent consumables and then pick the one you need at the time for trivial problem solving. You still can't spam them, but versatility on that level is power by itself (always have the right cure/divination/utility/silver bullet at hand). Instead of just a wand of grease, you have dozens of wands of 1st level spells and pull the one you need for the situation.

    Offline sirpercival

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    Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
    « Reply #18 on: October 19, 2012, 01:32:04 PM »
    There are more pieces that I'd like to throw in here for discussion.

    1) How do we make things like Poison, Curses, and Diseases relevant at high/epic level?
    2) How do we make things like Skills relevant at high/epic level?

    I wonder whether we should add another category of spells that need fixing to the list: party role replacers.  This would include things like Divine Power, Knock, Divine Insight, etc.
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    Offline phaedrusxy

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    Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
    « Reply #19 on: October 19, 2012, 01:34:45 PM »
    Yeah, 5th level characters shouldn't be using 3rd level wands just yet.

    The problem I see with your version is that it kinda drives players for a toolbox mindset, where you hoard lots of diferent consumables and then pick the one you need at the time for trivial problem solving. You still can't spam them, but versatility on that level is power by itself (always have the right cure/divination/utility/silver bullet at hand). Instead of just a wand of grease, you have dozens of wands of 1st level spells and pull the one you need for the situation.
    True... maybe they should still need to be attuned AND lower your WBL pool when actually consumed...
    There are more pieces that I'd like to throw in here for discussion.

    1) How do we make things like Poison, Curses, and Diseases relevant at high/epic level?
    2) How do we make things like Skills relevant at high/epic level?

    I wonder whether we should add another category of spells that need fixing to the list: party role replacers.  This would include things like Divine Power, Knock, Divine Insight, etc.
    1) Make Epic versions of them, which require Epic solutions. :P
    2) This is more difficult... and really just shows how crappy the current skill system is overall, and how problematic it is that there is a "magical" solution that basically replaces/trumps almost all of the mundane skills.

    So I guess a start for #2 would be invent more (and better) Epic usages of skills which can do really extraordinary things (like walk on air with Balance, etc), and get rid of/modify the spells that make skills obsolete (Knock, etc). Perhaps a negative consequence of the first part is that you might be able to reproduce these Epic skill usages with a non-epic character...

    This again gets into another system problem: there are too many damned bonus types, making it very possible to kick yourself off the random number generator entirely. If we're rewriting things, we should definitely address this from the beginning: no bullshit bonuses. There should only be 2 or 3 bonus types, period, and none of them stack with themselves.
    « Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 01:39:52 PM by phaedrusxy »
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