The OOC thread

[Raineh Daze]

How much do you think an empty wooden box with some dirt in it would weigh?

The only 'flaw' I would expect of a paragon is somewhat obsessive devotion.

... I am not seeing a loss of two feats (as well as not having the penalties that go with them) as much of a punishment for full BAB, three good saves, 12 HD, fast healing that ends up equal to HD, DR, energy resistance, SR, SLA's, maximised HD, +14 to two ability scores, +10 to another one, +6 to another, and +2 to the remaining ones.  That's before getting into the ability to buff rolls... and finally an automatic 11 on any check. And then there's the excellencies...

Oh, and tripled movement speeds.

[Kuroimaken]

Added background, just some 3500ish GP left to spend. Maybe an anklet of translocation and cloak of resistance?

That's stupid, I'm eliminating that bit. The BEST paragons have some kind of flaw. Seriously.

(click to show/hide)

1.
a model or pattern of excellence or of a particular excellence: a paragon of virtue. Synonyms: ideal, standard, epitome, quintessence; example, exemplar, paradigm.
2.
someone of exceptional merit: Just who is this paragon whose name is on everyone's lips? Synonyms: nonesuch, nonpareil.

If a paragon can't claim to be flawless, then who can?

Besides, it's also a balancing mechanism. The Paragon prc is slightly stronger than usual in return for you having two less feats than usual.

You know what I mean - paragons as in characters. Superman, for example.

Either way, I don't think any such creature could ever exist in this particular setting. It'd be eaten alive.

How much do you think an empty wooden box with some dirt in it would weigh?

Depends on how much dirt, really. The wooden box itself isn't TOO heavy, assuming a relatively simple casket...

I've been a pallbearer before, and let me tell you, there's a REASON you get at least four people logging that thing around.

[Raineh Daze]

Well, it only needs to be a layer of dirt, so... probably not that much dirt, really.

[Jackinthegreen]

According to the US NIST, the average density of dirt is 120 lbs per cubic foot.

[Raineh Daze]

... 120lbs? What sort of dirt do they have in the USA?

[Jackinthegreen]

And of course looking at other answers shows such results as http://answers.ask.com/Reference/Other/how_much_does_a_cubic_yard_of_dirt_weight or http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_does_a_cubic_foot_of_soil_weigh it's between 75 and 100 pounds per cubic foot.  Yeah, I wonder what dirt they were measuring too.

[Kuroimaken]

It actually sounds about right; dirt can be VERY heavy. Ever have to lug around a bag of mulch? Ten kg worth of mulch is a bag about as big as a reasonably large human torso.

Hmm. I'm tempted to say the whole thing weighs about... 100 pounds, without Elizabeth actually being in it.

[oslecamo]

Added background, just some 3500ish GP left to spend. Maybe an anklet of translocation and cloak of resistance?

That's stupid, I'm eliminating that bit. The BEST paragons have some kind of flaw. Seriously.

(click to show/hide)

1.
a model or pattern of excellence or of a particular excellence: a paragon of virtue. Synonyms: ideal, standard, epitome, quintessence; example, exemplar, paradigm.
2.
someone of exceptional merit: Just who is this paragon whose name is on everyone's lips? Synonyms: nonesuch, nonpareil.

If a paragon can't claim to be flawless, then who can?

Besides, it's also a balancing mechanism. The Paragon prc is slightly stronger than usual in return for you having two less feats than usual.

You know what I mean - paragons as in characters. Superman, for example.

Superman? He's a dick.

... I am not seeing a loss of two feats (as well as not having the penalties that go with them) as much of a punishment for full BAB, three good saves, 12 HD, fast healing that ends up equal to HD, DR, energy resistance, SR, SLA's, maximised HD, +14 to two ability scores, +10 to another one, +6 to another, and +2 to the remaining ones.  That's before getting into the ability to buff rolls... and finally an automatic 11 on any check. And then there's the excellencies...

Oh, and tripled movement speeds.

Well, it is a 15 level long prc.

[Raineh Daze]

Dirt has never seemed that heavy to me, just supremely awkward.

I am staring at that class in horror, now.

If you really felt like it, it's trivial to have a sorcerer with 7 9th level spells. Wearing full plate. And with about 40 touch AC. Before they even cast anything or start messing with enchanted gear. Also, melee capabilities only slightly behind dedicated fighters, again before casting anything. What.

[Kuroimaken]

To be fair, fighters ARE very bad at the one thing they're supposed to do, compared to any of a number of builds...

[Raineh Daze]

I somehow don't think that a dedicated spellcaster is supposed to be their equal before actually casting anything, though.

[oslecamo]

If the sorceror took all 15 levels of Paragon, it means it did not take 15 levels worth of actual spellcasting prcs.

[Raineh Daze]

They can still cast as a 19th level sorcerer with more spells, though.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

They also spent all their excellences on boosting their casting so they don't have as much actual Paragon as a Paragon who didn't do that.

[Raineh Daze]

I refer back to the post at the top of the page.

Paragon abilities vs a selection of 60-something spontaneously cast spells, still with all the bonuses that aren't Excellencies. Err...

[Kuroimaken]

Whatever the case, can you get me a level-by-level progression before I make a final decision on this?

[VennDygrem]

I would have to agree with RD on this, that a Paragon caster is ahead of a straight 20-level progression for a caster. Then again, that's vs. a straight Wizard or Sorcerer 20, and the Paragon certainly boosts a lot of abilities, but not all of them are things that a true spellcaster needs. What does a mage care if they have triple move speed when they're likely to just teleport anyway? There are better prestige classes for a lot of caster archetypes, so while Paragon is a better bet for a generalist, it's not as useful for something more specific. For instance, how does Paragon make you a better summoner, or a better Necromancer, besides boosting your save DC's for spells in general?

In short, it's good, really good even, but not the be-all-and-end-all choice. Not even for non-casters.

[ariasderros]

Whatever the case, can you get me a level-by-level progression before I make a final decision on this?

Yes, I had planned on doing that today, and it'll be so.

A couple of hours or so.

Also, Raineh, what class are you reading?
Let's look at the sorcerer who takes it. He's level 5. @ 6 he takes 'caster', and has 7th casting. oh no, he's a kobold. 7th he's @ 7th still. 8th, he takes 'caster' again, putting him @ 9. oh no, he's a kobold. 9th level, he's @ 9th casting still. then, at 10th level, he can't take caster anymore, because it can only be taken twice, thus he's still at 9th casting. @ 11th level, he can't take 'caster' , but he's looking at 'mage', but that has a pre-req of another Excellence. So he takes the pre-req. 11th level, 9th casting, still. 13th level (8th in the class), he takes 'mage', 11th level casting. 14th level, 11th level casting. 15th level, takes 'mage' again to have 13th level casting. 16th level (11th in the class), he takes 'Magia', 15th level casting. 17th, 15th. 18th, 'magia', 17th. 19th, 17th. And, finally, at level 20, you can take 'magia' again for 19th level casting.

So... most of the time you're behind by 1-2 levels. Never are you a 7th level sorcerer with 9th level spells.  What you give up from your casting may or may not be worth it, depending on how good you are at using your casting. But as Osle said, actual spellcasting PrC's are much better for casting, since their class features are, you know, meant for casting.

Now, really, where the heck did you get your numbers?

[ariasderros]

First Five Levels.

(click to show/hide)

Potential
Gain potential points = to HD (8)
These can be spent on a 1 for 1 basis to augment a d20 roll (like attacks or saves). They can also augment weapon damage rolls, but I'm not sure how often that'll be relevant to me.
Only up to Paragon level may be spent on a single roll (1, at this point)
They are refreshed every hour.
Balance: at this point, they're like less powerful, but more plentiful Action Points that require you spend levels to get them, much less make them useful.
Excellence
These are the special abilities for the class.
Aside from only getting so many, they also have prerequisites.
The one I'd take at level 1 would be Paragon Will.
Paragon Will
This has three effects: First, Potential Points are now spent on a 1 for 2 boost when being used for Will Saves; Second, Don't fail Will saves on a '1' anymore (which would fall under the same point of 'except for curses' that you've laid out for Iron Will); Last, immunity to having my actions forced (I imagine that that is referring to things like Command or Suggestion).

(click to show/hide)

Potential
9, refreshing on the hour, maximum spendable per roll = 2.
DR
(HD / 2) / Magic. So if a non-magic weapon is used on me, after level 9, I'll have DR 4. yay.
Stat Boost
+2 to Charisma, +2 to Constitution

(click to show/hide)

Paragon Will
This has three effects: First, Potential Points are now spent on a 1 for 2 boost when being used for Will Saves; Second, Don't fail Will saves on a '1' anymore (which would fall under the same point of 'except for curses' that you've laid out for Iron Will); Last, immunity to having my actions forced (I imagine that that is referring to things like Command or Suggestion).

(click to show/hide)

Potential
10, refreshing on the hour, maximum spendable per roll = 3.
Speed
All movement modes up by 50%
To put this as 'broke' as I can, for review: I can assume the Pixie flight in any form, 60ft (perfect), which then becomes 90ft (perfect).
Excellence
These are the special abilities for the class.
Aside from only getting so many, they also have prerequisites.
The one I'd take at level 3 would be Paragon Fortitude.
Paragon Fortitude
This has three effects: First, Potential Points are now spent on a 1 for 2 boost when being used for Fort Saves; Second, Don't fail Fort saves on a '1' anymore (which would fall under the same point of 'except for curses' that you've laid out for Great Fortitude); Last, resist non-damage harmful effects that wouldn't normally allow a save, Fort Save DC 10+1/2 HD attacker+Attacker's Highest Stat Mod (how many things that are relevant don't allow a save? Other than cheap stuff like Dust of Sneezing or Ghoul Glyph, and honestly, if you're planning on stuff like that, then I really want this, just to not get cheap-O'd).

(click to show/hide)

Paragon Will
This has three effects: First, Potential Points are now spent on a 1 for 2 boost when being used for Will Saves; Second, Don't fail Will saves on a '1' anymore (which would fall under the same point of 'except for curses' that you've laid out for Iron Will); Last, immunity to having my actions forced (I imagine that that is referring to things like Command or Suggestion).
DR
(HD / 2) / Magic. So if a non-magic weapon is used on me, after level 9, I'll have DR 4. yay.
Stat Boost
+2 to Charisma, +2 to Constitution

(click to show/hide)

Potential
11, refreshing on the hour, maximum spendable per roll = 4.
SLA
Greater Dispel Magic. Usable 1 day per 3 HD (3 uses per day, at this point).
All count as (Ex)
Stat Boost
+2 to Charisma, +2 to Constitution
Total: +0/+0/+4/+0/+0/+4

(click to show/hide)

Paragon Will
This has three effects: First, Potential Points are now spent on a 1 for 2 boost when being used for Will Saves; Second, Don't fail Will saves on a '1' anymore (which would fall under the same point of 'except for curses' that you've laid out for Iron Will); Last, immunity to having my actions forced (I imagine that that is referring to things like Command or Suggestion).
Paragon Fortitude
This has three effects: First, Potential Points are now spent on a 1 for 2 boost when being used for Fort Saves; Second, Don't fail Fort saves on a '1' anymore (which would fall under the same point of 'except for curses' that you've laid out for Great Fortitude); Last, resist non-damage harmful effects that wouldn't normally allow a save, Fort Save DC 10+1/2 HD attacker+Attacker's Highest Stat Mod (how many things that are relevant don't allow a save? Other than cheap stuff like Dust of Sneezing or Ghoul Glyph, and honestly, if you're planning on stuff like that, then I really want this, just to not get cheap-O'd).
DR
(HD / 2) / Magic. So if a non-magic weapon is used on me, after level 9, I'll have DR 4. yay.
Speed
All movement modes up by 50%
To put this as 'broke' as I can, for review: I can assume the Pixie flight in any form, 60ft (perfect), which then becomes 90ft (perfect).

(click to show/hide)

Potential
12, refreshing on the hour, maximum spendable per roll = 5.
SLA
Greater Dispel Magic. Usable 1 day per 3 HD (4 uses per day, at this point).
All count as (Ex)
Fast Healing
= 1/2 HD. I can already take Hydra Form to get FH to heal with, this just cuts out the middle-man.
Excellence
These are the special abilities for the class.
Aside from only getting so many, they also have prerequisites.
The one I'd take at level 5 would be Paragon Reflexes.
Paragon Reflexes
This has three effects: First, Potential Points are now spent on a 1 for 2 boost when being used for Ref Saves; Second, Don't fail Ref saves on a '1' anymore (which would fall under the same point of 'except for curses' that you've laid out for Lighting Reflexes); Never Flat-Footed.

(click to show/hide)

Paragon Will
This has three effects: First, Potential Points are now spent on a 1 for 2 boost when being used for Will Saves; Second, Don't fail Will saves on a '1' anymore (which would fall under the same point of 'except for curses' that you've laid out for Iron Will); Last, immunity to having my actions forced (I imagine that that is referring to things like Command or Suggestion).
Paragon Fortitude
This has three effects: First, Potential Points are now spent on a 1 for 2 boost when being used for Fort Saves; Second, Don't fail Fort saves on a '1' anymore (which would fall under the same point of 'except for curses' that you've laid out for Great Fortitude); Last, resist non-damage harmful effects that wouldn't normally allow a save, Fort Save DC 10+1/2 HD attacker+Attacker's Highest Stat Mod (how many things that are relevant don't allow a save? Other than cheap stuff like Dust of Sneezing or Ghoul Glyph, and honestly, if you're planning on stuff like that, then I really want this, just to not get cheap-O'd).
DR
(HD / 2) / Magic. So if a non-magic weapon is used on me, after level 9, I'll have DR 4. yay.
Speed
All movement modes up by 50%
To put this as 'broke' as I can, for review: I can assume the Pixie flight in any form, 60ft (perfect), which then becomes 90ft (perfect).
Stat Boost
+2 to Charisma, +2 to Constitution
Total: +0/+0/+4/+0/+0/+4

[Raineh Daze]

Now, really, where the heck did you get your numbers?

I was looking at the end result, not the various steps. I think you misunderstood me: in the end, you're a sorcerer that can have 7 9th level spells. I want to know where you got the 'level 7 sorcerer with 9th level spells' part from, myself.

And yes, it's not the best for pure casting, but that wasn't what bothered me.

I must admit that, thematically, I can't stand the class in the slightest, though. Utterly flawless, good at everything, can do amazing things that others can't because they're just that awesome? Now, what does that sound like?