Author Topic: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?  (Read 14269 times)

Offline Nifft

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Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« on: July 30, 2017, 09:36:00 PM »
Spellwurm (Magic of Eberron, p.156) looks like it might be good for early entry.

The trick: Versatile Spellcaster feat allows a 1st level spontaneous caster to cast a 2nd level spell, and Spellwurm give a 2nd level spell known (blur).

I think this is pretty solid, rules-wise, and requires no Dragon Magazine access.

== == ==

What about other symbiotes?

I see the Mind Leech in the Fiend Folio which casts as a level 10 Sorcerer -- but it doesn't look like that counts as the host casting, so I think it's not useful for meeting prereqs.

Are there others which grant (Sp) (or other caster level), which does count as the host's casting?

Offline ketaro

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 09:44:24 PM »
Quote
You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.

Considering you can't know a 2nd level spell at 1st level......How?  :huh

I dunno I went looking up stuff after instead of before and whatevs. Seems awkward to me.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 09:49:18 PM by ketaro »

Offline Nifft

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 09:49:58 PM »
Spellwurm:



Any Sorcerer will gain blur as a spell known, even a 1st level Sorcerer.


Versatile Spellcaster:



You can cast a 2nd level spell you know by using 2 slots of level 1.


Due to the Spellwurm, you know a 2nd level spell (blur), and now you can cast it. At level 1.

Hope that's clear enough.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 08:23:31 AM »
Hope that's clear enough.
Can I use Versatile Spellcaster to cast Blur while Pinned and my opponent is denying speech?
What about Fireball in an Antimagic Field?

Offline Nifft

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 08:32:21 AM »
Hope that's clear enough.
Can I use Versatile Spellcaster to cast Blur while Pinned and my opponent is denying speech?
What about Fireball in an Antimagic Field?

Those are only prerequisites to sexytimes, and this thread is not about those.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 09:32:27 AM »
Those are only prerequisites to sexytimes, and this thread is not about those.
:twitch

Offline Nifft

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 09:40:53 AM »
:twitch
Could you perchance be cajoled into posting on-topic?

Just so we're clear, tentacle wrestling is not on-topic for this thread, and that's why I'm not taking your tentacle-wrestling question seriously.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2017, 09:50:45 AM »
I am on topic, I'm trying to figure out how many twists and turns your jagged line of interpretation takes. For example, does Versatile Spellcaster ignore Verbal Components and Antimagic just as you imply it ignores CL and Slot requirements? According to your inappropriate logic, what does the Feat actually do besides what you want it to do right now?

Offline Nifft

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 10:25:10 AM »
I am on topic, I'm trying to figure out how many twists and turns your jagged line of interpretation takes. For example, does Versatile Spellcaster ignore Verbal Components and Antimagic just as you imply it ignores CL and Slot requirements? According to your inappropriate logic, what does the Feat actually do besides what you want it to do right now?
:huh

What "inappropriate logic" are you talking about?

Spellwurm gives you a 2nd level spell known. That's explicit.

Versatile Spellcaster lets you expend 2 level 1 slots to cast a 2nd leel spell you know. That's also explicit.

The general rules for spellcasting are over-ridden to let you cast a higher level spell, but otherwise the general rules apply.

You use whatever components are required to cast the spell (just verbal, in this case). That's the end of it. Nothing in there about special treatment of anti-magic fields, nor about your tentacle wrestling fantasy.

Offline Keldar

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2017, 10:41:46 AM »
Translated from SorO: None of that gives you the Caster Level of 4 needed to cast a 2nd level Sorcerer spell.  PH fucking B.

Offline Nifft

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2017, 11:07:25 AM »
Translated from SorO: None of that gives you the Caster Level of 4 needed to cast a 2nd level Sorcerer spell.  PH fucking B.
If there is such a rule, that would certainly torpedo this tactic.

But I don't see that in the Sorcerer text.

Where is that rule located?

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2017, 12:01:55 PM »
All I can find is a tautological entry in Casting Spells:

Quote from: SRD
Caster Level

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

But all this establishes is that the Caster Level you use to cast a spell has to be at least the Caster Level the spell requires--which is only provided by when you have it as a spell known/spells per day entry. I don't know if it's made explicit somewhere that said lower bound is the level you would normally get that level of spell.

As it is, the only lower bound established seems to be "you can only cast the spell at the lowest caster level you can cast the spell, which is when you can cast the spell". That's not an explicit "CL 4 required" thing.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 12:05:17 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2017, 01:05:22 PM »
That's not an explicit "CL 4 required" thing.
That's because you're looking at the base rules, the exact CL is based on the Class. Like Wizard/Druid's minimal CL for a 2nd level Spell is three but a Sorcerer's is fourth. Then there are oddball Classes like a Paladin who only needs a CL of four for 2nd level Spells and fifth for 3rd level Spells. This is of course drawn from when they get access but it's more directly spelled out in the Magical Item rules.

What "inappropriate logic" are you talking about?
Spellwurm gives you an additional 2nd level spell known. That's an explicit problem. The Sorcerer doesn't simply have zero 2nd level Slots or Spells Known, he expressly has none and you cannot add +1 to a nonexistent value.
Versatile Spellcaster lets you expend 2 level 1 slots to cast a 2nd level spell you know. That's also explicitly vague.
The general rules for spellcasting are assumed to be over-ridden to let you cast a higher level spell and the feat never indicates that it allows you to cast spells with levels higher than you're normally allowed, but otherwise the general rules apply.
So in response to the red text, what you're saying is the Sorcerer's general rule of not having the ability to cast 2nd level spells means he cannot cast 2nd level Spells?

And that'd be part of the inappropriate logic I spoke of.
Also VS does not allow you to count two 1st level Slots as a 2nd level Slot. It only allows you to use two 1st level Slots to cast a 2nd level Spell and that's kind of important too.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 01:09:19 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2017, 01:17:40 PM »
Okay, is this the magical item rules in the SRD, or magical item rules in the rules compendium? I don't have the second one right now.

And I think that's being a bit odd as regards spells known--the Sorcerer might not know any spells of that level, but the feat explicitly says that they gain those spells as additional spells known. Therefore, regardless, the Sorcerer now knows Blur, which is a second-level spell. Versatile Spellcaster lets you use two first-level slots to cast a second level spell you know--two first level spells can be expended to cast Blur, then.

The flaw, therefore, is not in the combination there--it's in whether there's a separate requirement to cast them. Why that's in the magic item rules is one of life's mysteries.

Offline Nifft

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2017, 01:49:27 PM »
That's not an explicit "CL 4 required" thing.
That's because you're looking at the base rules, the exact CL is based on the Class. Like Wizard/Druid's minimal CL for a 2nd level Spell is three but a Sorcerer's is fourth. Then there are oddball Classes like a Paladin who only needs a CL of four for 2nd level Spells and fifth for 3rd level Spells. This is of course drawn from when they get access but it's more directly spelled out in the Magical Item rules.
Magic item rules are for magic items. Spells are not magic items. Magic item rules are not for spells.

There are official effects which reduce caster level -- it's easily possible to cast a spell at a level lower than the lowest at which you would ordinarily be able to create a magic item.


Spellwurm gives you an additional 2nd level spell known. That's an explicit problem. The Sorcerer doesn't simply have zero 2nd level Slots or Spells Known, he expressly has none and you cannot add +1 to a nonexistent value.
You're trying to nitpick, but you're not reading the actual text. Thus you're making stuff up and then trying to rules-lawyer based on your own inventions.

Spellwurm adds mage armor, blur, and ancestral knowledge to your spells known. If you have a list of spells known (which you do, since you're casting spells spontaneously), these three spells are added to your "spells known" list. That's it.

There's no "additional 2nd level spell" in the text for you to build your case upon.

Often this sort of spell-list adder has some language about what happens if you don't already know spells of the appropriate level, but that language is absent here. If that language were present, you'd have a case. It's not, and you don't.

Colorful mock-up mockery notwithstanding.


Also VS does not allow you to count two 1st level Slots as a 2nd level Slot. It only allows you to use two 1st level Slots to cast a 2nd level Spell and that's kind of important too.[/size]
Quite true.

It's not a problem for this trick, since casting a 2nd level spell is the prerequisite that I'm targeting, but this part of your post is accurate.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2017, 06:46:07 PM »
You're trying to nitpick, but you're not reading the actual text. Thus you're making stuff up and then trying to rules-lawyer based on your own inventions.
Here, let me help you with this.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2017, 07:01:23 PM »
If we want to have a really fun time being pedantic, all it calls for is having spells known. Hinging that point on an unwritten "provided that you have spells known of the same level of the spells being added to your list of spells known" is the part that needs support.

Offline Agita

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2017, 07:13:38 PM »
Keep it civil and on-topic. LMGTFY links are neither. I can see where this is going, so this is your warning.
Please send private messages regarding board matters to Forum Staff instead.

Offline ketaro

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2017, 08:00:27 PM »
All I can find is a tautological entry in Casting Spells:

Quote from: SRD
Caster Level

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

But all this establishes is that the Caster Level you use to cast a spell has to be at least the Caster Level the spell requires--which is only provided by when you have it as a spell known/spells per day entry. I don't know if it's made explicit somewhere that said lower bound is the level you would normally get that level of spell.

As it is, the only lower bound established seems to be "you can only cast the spell at the lowest caster level you can cast the spell, which is when you can cast the spell". That's not an explicit "CL 4 required" thing.

That...seems rather straightforward to me. Unless something somewhere says a spontaneous caster can cast a 2nd level spell without having a CL of 4+ for 2nd level spells then that quote is actually saying "CL 4 required", no?

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Using Symbiotes for Prerequisites?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2017, 08:06:20 PM »
All I can find is a tautological entry in Casting Spells:

Quote from: SRD
Caster Level

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

But all this establishes is that the Caster Level you use to cast a spell has to be at least the Caster Level the spell requires--which is only provided by when you have it as a spell known/spells per day entry. I don't know if it's made explicit somewhere that said lower bound is the level you would normally get that level of spell.

As it is, the only lower bound established seems to be "you can only cast the spell at the lowest caster level you can cast the spell, which is when you can cast the spell". That's not an explicit "CL 4 required" thing.

That...seems rather straightforward to me. Unless something somewhere says a spontaneous caster can cast a 2nd level spell without having a CL of 4+ for 2nd level spells then that quote is actually saying "CL 4 required", no?

No, it says that you can't cast it at a caster level that isn't high enough but nowhere does it actually say what that caster level is. We can assume, but that entry isn't explicit. Normally, it's just tied to the spells you have access to. Or rather--in the magic item rules somewhere, but I don't know which book to check for that bit.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 08:22:22 PM by Raineh Daze »