Author Topic: The Politics Thread v3  (Read 95816 times)

Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #240 on: July 27, 2016, 03:42:58 PM »
theres always the nihilist party

"We're nihilists Lebowski! We believe in nothing!" (Great image by the way. You made me look that guy up. :P )

Necro Butcher has an interesting history.  As well as one of the most terrifying matches I have ever seen.

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/other-wrestling/1520433-iwa-ms-ds-ec-discussion-thread-2.html  <serious squick warning

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #241 on: July 27, 2016, 04:22:36 PM »
But what's this stuff I've heard about Bernie being nominated to run for president at the DNC convention today? Or yesterday, W/e.
???

It just meant they were including him on the list to vote on, rather than what they were going to do and ignore that he ever existed.

They gave Bernie's brother the international vote slot and he was quite moved by the moment, Bernie too had to fight back tears.

Bernie got the official nominating slot for Hillary.
http://time.com/4425363/dnc-bernie-sanders-nominate-hillary-clinton/
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #242 on: July 27, 2016, 04:32:32 PM »
Meanwhile, Trump has called for Russia to hack Clinton.

I think the FBI basically went "What."

Offline Keldar

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #243 on: July 28, 2016, 03:22:36 PM »
Well, it's officially over now.

Unfortunately I am of the opinion that this effectively locks us into President Trump.  I will be voting Stien as I have always held as my plan B.  I wonder what happens now.

The rest of the world gets pissed at the USA?

Except for those parts laughing.

Yup.

(Unrelated side note, check your PMs.  I've been looking for you.)

Or people could not cut off their nose to spite their face. That would be nice.

I wish I could read minds to find out why voters are deciding now is the time to choose idealogical principles over pragmatism... :rolleyes
Because right now is the most pragmatic time to choose idealogical principles?  Both stinking parties are mid meltdown.  Libertarian Gary Johnson is climbing in the polls, and actually stands a strong chance of making it to the Presidential Debates.  A conservative that isn't a clown is appealing to many typical Republican voters.  Green candidate Jill Stein is polling lower, and has a lower national presence, but like Johnson is actually on enough ballots to have the opportunity to win.  She isn't on every ballot, last I heard, unlike the other three, so her odds are even thinner.  Then again, the DNC corruption is bound to send folks her way.  And should Stein and Johnson play spoiler and create a contested election, Johnson probably has a better chance of winning in Congress than anyone else, but especially poison pill Trumpy.

Either way, both parties are undergoing shit storms at the moment.  There hasn't been this good of a time to try and push a third party candidate that I can think of since Teddy Roosevelt felt like making Taft his bitch again.  Sure, last time one succeeded we fought a war over it, but that doesn't mean we have to keep up this Lesser of Two Evils farce.

Besides, its not like most of our votes actually directly matter.  The Electoral College system ensures most of us cast our vote when the national census comes through.  :P  So the best use may be giving another option the spotlight for a little while.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #244 on: July 28, 2016, 05:32:07 PM »
Kaine clocks in with a collective meh ... except the legit Spanish created some near rapturiousness.

Bill's speech in the first half, got a solid punt from Men of all stripes, but some Women went into full swoon mode.

Cruz did it along the same lines too, about 70% of Repubs liked everything he said right up to that last zinger.


It's like ultra-specific targetting.
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Offline SolEiji

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #245 on: July 30, 2016, 04:10:03 AM »
Well, it's officially over now.

Unfortunately I am of the opinion that this effectively locks us into President Trump.  I will be voting Stien as I have always held as my plan B.  I wonder what happens now.

The rest of the world gets pissed at the USA?

Except for those parts laughing.

Yup.

(Unrelated side note, check your PMs.  I've been looking for you.)

Or people could not cut off their nose to spite their face. That would be nice.

I wish I could read minds to find out why voters are deciding now is the time to choose idealogical principles over pragmatism... :rolleyes
Because right now is the most pragmatic time to choose idealogical principles?  Both stinking parties are mid meltdown.  Libertarian Gary Johnson is climbing in the polls, and actually stands a strong chance of making it to the Presidential Debates.  A conservative that isn't a clown is appealing to many typical Republican voters.  Green candidate Jill Stein is polling lower, and has a lower national presence, but like Johnson is actually on enough ballots to have the opportunity to win.  She isn't on every ballot, last I heard, unlike the other three, so her odds are even thinner.  Then again, the DNC corruption is bound to send folks her way.  And should Stein and Johnson play spoiler and create a contested election, Johnson probably has a better chance of winning in Congress than anyone else, but especially poison pill Trumpy.

Either way, both parties are undergoing shit storms at the moment.  There hasn't been this good of a time to try and push a third party candidate that I can think of since Teddy Roosevelt felt like making Taft his bitch again.  Sure, last time one succeeded we fought a war over it, but that doesn't mean we have to keep up this Lesser of Two Evils farce.

Besides, its not like most of our votes actually directly matter.  The Electoral College system ensures most of us cast our vote when the national census comes through.  :P  So the best use may be giving another option the spotlight for a little while.

I just wanted to say, underrated post.

Some have been saying "wait it out, vote for the lesser evil, try again next time", but the problem is that they've been saying that for 30 years.  And frankly I've never seen anything close to a meltdown like this year, not even the insurgent rise and fall of Ron Paul last time.  If there is ever a time, that time is now.

I just wonder about the people who say that: if now is not the time to push for an option C, when?
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #246 on: July 30, 2016, 08:16:34 AM »
Well, it's officially over now.

Unfortunately I am of the opinion that this effectively locks us into President Trump.  I will be voting Stien as I have always held as my plan B.  I wonder what happens now.

The rest of the world gets pissed at the USA?

Except for those parts laughing.

Yup.

(Unrelated side note, check your PMs.  I've been looking for you.)

Or people could not cut off their nose to spite their face. That would be nice.

I wish I could read minds to find out why voters are deciding now is the time to choose idealogical principles over pragmatism... :rolleyes
Because right now is the most pragmatic time to choose idealogical principles?  Both stinking parties are mid meltdown.  Libertarian Gary Johnson is climbing in the polls, and actually stands a strong chance of making it to the Presidential Debates.  A conservative that isn't a clown is appealing to many typical Republican voters.  Green candidate Jill Stein is polling lower, and has a lower national presence, but like Johnson is actually on enough ballots to have the opportunity to win.  She isn't on every ballot, last I heard, unlike the other three, so her odds are even thinner.  Then again, the DNC corruption is bound to send folks her way.  And should Stein and Johnson play spoiler and create a contested election, Johnson probably has a better chance of winning in Congress than anyone else, but especially poison pill Trumpy.

Either way, both parties are undergoing shit storms at the moment.  There hasn't been this good of a time to try and push a third party candidate that I can think of since Teddy Roosevelt felt like making Taft his bitch again.  Sure, last time one succeeded we fought a war over it, but that doesn't mean we have to keep up this Lesser of Two Evils farce.

Besides, its not like most of our votes actually directly matter.  The Electoral College system ensures most of us cast our vote when the national census comes through.  :P  So the best use may be giving another option the spotlight for a little while.

I just wanted to say, underrated post.

Some have been saying "wait it out, vote for the lesser evil, try again next time", but the problem is that they've been saying that for 30 years.  And frankly I've never seen anything close to a meltdown like this year, not even the insurgent rise and fall of Ron Paul last time.  If there is ever a time, that time is now.

I just wonder about the people who say that: if now is not the time to push for an option C, when?

Well, not handing the office that controls all environmental regulation to people that believe that shouldn't exist would be a nice thing.

But no, fixate on the presidency like that's a useful time to push for a third option.

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #247 on: July 30, 2016, 10:16:49 AM »
I see the points both ways on this.  I'm honestly pretty torn.  I have to admit, while I have said I'm probably voting Stein, I really don't think she's great.  She's not exactly pro-science*, So essentially, my voting for her has always been essentially a protest vote.  Hillary is...bad.  Not many people can argue, progressives and left leaning people anyways, that she's good.  She's going to be about as good as a Bush presidency.  This is pretty much not disputed from anyone I know following politics.  A lot of people forget, but Bush Jr was pretty okay for minorities, with his rhetoric.  After 9/11 he did issue a call to not blame Muslims for it, blame the terrorists.  He was fairly pro-immigrant.  He was somewhat corrupt, but not hugely so.  He was bad for foreign policy, bad for domestic policy, but not 100% destructively so.  Hillary will be about like that.  I can live through that pretty easily.  Trump is a wild card, I don't know exactly what will happen.  I know his positions, both the news version and the actual versions he has on his website, and they are....survivable if the system works.  The SCOTUS is an issue for long term stuff, but again, if the system works, with checks and balances, that might not be a huge deal.  Hillary has more long term implications.  If she wins, and she probably will, it's not that her policies will cause massive problems in the country, it's that long term she will affect no positive change, and keep us in this sort of pseudo oligarchical structure, with special interests being able to buy elections and money ruling everything still with the disaffected being the foot stools for years to come.  Her problem is that in the future, long term past 4 years, is that there will be a bigger backlash against people like her going forward.

This is all negated if in fact she actually means what she said later on in her campaign, after she tried to become Sanders.  However, picking Tim Kaine, listening to Wall Street to avoid picking Warren, her friends outright saying she's going to flip on TPP, etc. all indicate that she's not being honest with those positions.

*She suffers from a worse position as Sanders on science, Sanders is anti-nuclear power, which environmentalists should absolutely be all about.  She is more anti-nuclear than him, but also kind of an anti-vaxxer, but not really.  She's not so anti-vax as to really color her positions too much, so it's not a huge deal.  But it exists, so I know some third party voters who are reluctant because of that.  But also, there's the stuff she's been pulling lately, she's essentially become Hillary of the progressives, saying that she's the anti-Hillary choice, not that she's the progressive choice.  Over the past couple months she's been wearing thin on me because of it.
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Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #248 on: July 30, 2016, 11:45:20 AM »
Hones question do we really need a president? Can we not seize the means of production for ourselves?
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #249 on: July 30, 2016, 03:52:56 PM »

Honest question do we really need a president?

No.  A purely ceremonial President could allow to become law any bill that passes his ("his") desk, not otherwise doing anything.

And worse, if this most recent ultra-filibustered and ultra-gerrymandered Congress is actually a harbinger of future conduct, they won't pass very many bills at all.

The military could fight whatever War they wanted to, and congress would have to stop ditherings for the troups to get paid.  But that all volunteer force, believes in it's Holy wars, and doesn't need to get paid, to go along with their always being cut Veterans Care.  See the Revolutionary War vets, and the WW 1 vets.  They both had to march on congress to get paid and at a massive discount.  Bonus Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army.  "Not until March 18, 1818 (3 Stat. 410), did the U. S. Congress grant pensions to Revolutionary War veterans for service".

Dystopian to the extreme, but true and historical.

Quote

Can we not seize the means of production for ourselves?

Nope.
Wall Street and Big Tech, have a permanent advantage.  We'll get to see this play out in our lifetimes.
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Offline SolEiji

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #250 on: August 04, 2016, 03:00:55 AM »
Well, it's officially over now.

Unfortunately I am of the opinion that this effectively locks us into President Trump.  I will be voting Stien as I have always held as my plan B.  I wonder what happens now.

The rest of the world gets pissed at the USA?

Except for those parts laughing.

Yup.

(Unrelated side note, check your PMs.  I've been looking for you.)

Or people could not cut off their nose to spite their face. That would be nice.

I wish I could read minds to find out why voters are deciding now is the time to choose idealogical principles over pragmatism... :rolleyes
Because right now is the most pragmatic time to choose idealogical principles?  Both stinking parties are mid meltdown.  Libertarian Gary Johnson is climbing in the polls, and actually stands a strong chance of making it to the Presidential Debates.  A conservative that isn't a clown is appealing to many typical Republican voters.  Green candidate Jill Stein is polling lower, and has a lower national presence, but like Johnson is actually on enough ballots to have the opportunity to win.  She isn't on every ballot, last I heard, unlike the other three, so her odds are even thinner.  Then again, the DNC corruption is bound to send folks her way.  And should Stein and Johnson play spoiler and create a contested election, Johnson probably has a better chance of winning in Congress than anyone else, but especially poison pill Trumpy.

Either way, both parties are undergoing shit storms at the moment.  There hasn't been this good of a time to try and push a third party candidate that I can think of since Teddy Roosevelt felt like making Taft his bitch again.  Sure, last time one succeeded we fought a war over it, but that doesn't mean we have to keep up this Lesser of Two Evils farce.

Besides, its not like most of our votes actually directly matter.  The Electoral College system ensures most of us cast our vote when the national census comes through.  :P  So the best use may be giving another option the spotlight for a little while.

I just wanted to say, underrated post.

Some have been saying "wait it out, vote for the lesser evil, try again next time", but the problem is that they've been saying that for 30 years.  And frankly I've never seen anything close to a meltdown like this year, not even the insurgent rise and fall of Ron Paul last time.  If there is ever a time, that time is now.

I just wonder about the people who say that: if now is not the time to push for an option C, when?

Well, not handing the office that controls all environmental regulation to people that believe that shouldn't exist would be a nice thing.

But no, fixate on the presidency like that's a useful time to push for a third option.

You act like I won't be voting in Sanders-esque members into other positions in the government.  I'm still doing that, even though the presidency is now a lost cause.
Mudada.

Offline Captnq

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #251 on: August 04, 2016, 04:07:00 PM »
Think you are all missing the big picture.

Add up all debt, Fed/State/County/Local - it's about 25.3 Trillion.
Add up all taxes Fed/State/County/Local - it's about 4 Trillion.
Add up all expenses Fed/State/County/Local - it's about 5.6 Trillion.

Add in interest on all the debt and you find out that we're on track to tack on about 3 trillion dollars this year to the total national debt.

Neither candidate is talking about it. Why?

Because Hillary will have to admit its the democrats fault.
Because Trump will have to admit his only option is to slash all government welfare programs by a minimum of 30%.

Vote Hillary and her plans will put the total US Government Debt at 40 Trillion before the end of her first term. Her plan to fix our economy is to spend our way out of it. It didn't work for Obama, it won't work for Hillary.

Vote Trump and his plan is to say, "Fuck the poor. I just hope we can generate enough jobs they don't freeze to death before the winter comes."

Because what NOBODY is talking about is that as SOON as our debt is over 10 times our income, The US WILL be downgraded to AA status. Once that happens everyone will know it's gone too far. The US T-Bills will go into free fall. And before the end of Hillary's second term, we will envy Greece. We will look back on the 1930's and say to ourselves, "Good times... good times..."

Trump is going to "fix" it. Like you fix a Heroin Addict by strapping him to a bed and putting a ball gag in his mouth so he doesn't accidentally bite off his own tongue.

So, do you want to pay the bill now, or do you want the party to continue another 4 years before you have to deal with the bill, deal with the massive hangover, and confront the multiple messages on your cell phone,"Why aren't you at work? Where are you? Don't bother coming in, YOU'RE FIRED"?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 04:09:23 PM by Captnq »
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #252 on: August 04, 2016, 04:55:35 PM »
I think it's been strongly shown that you can't fix a deficit by cutting spending, because that just slows the economy down because there's less money moving around. Reduces tax income and increases reliance on government expenditure, and then you go for round two and funnily enough that doesn't fix the problem either. So short of immediately abolishing all public spending and opening a completely different can of worms, what's the point in talking about it?

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #253 on: August 04, 2016, 05:16:12 PM »
Latest batch of polls look pretty good for Hillary with a convention bounce and Trump's latest planned "outrage".


I look at ~about 85% of the tax $ spent in the 5 biggest programs.

Military = stop going to war(s) based on total nonsense and the ginning up industry.
Vet Care = already voted to be cut with every vote, Vets have good care, better than Medicare, so reducing the isolated "commie"-style care they currently get, and having their medical distributed via normal Docs, would open their eyes to how good they've got it ... and they'll still vote for the people who cut their care every single time already.
Debt = China loves this cash cow because their economy is worse and they need it to keep going to keep their's from flying apart, this is THE biggest lobby, see all the Chamber Of Commerce branches that opened up world wide immediately  after Citizens United.
Social Security = technically it's a gov insured retirement savings plan, economically fine (by itself) all the way out the the 2070s.  I have no idea how this is figured.  However, it's monies have been diverted, oops. The basic deal is gramma and grampa would be in total abject poverty if SSi didn't exist and they have had a suspicious tendency to go real legit Socialist without SSi.  The ultra-cons don't want that to happen, so they promote minor privatizations of it knowing full well they won't pass.  Except whoopsy that repub congress vote in Bush 43's last term, that 1 repub Senator had to vote against to keep Chaney from having to take the fall ... which he might not have done.  Shhhh don't tell gramps.
Medicare = big problem.  The trust fund will run out very soon, and benefits will be cut immediately.  Good luck politicians for putting (or pulling) this one off.  Except Ryan's last budget included every single Repub voting to end medicare.  Shhhhh don't tell gramps.

Any serious attempt at the Debt has to go directly through these 5 biggies.
And the House, 50/50.
And the Senate. 60/40 filibuster to the extreme.
And an inevitable Presidential Veto (to cover backside), forcing 67 in the senate after re-negotiating with the House.
And repeating China too.

 :D it'll be fun.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #254 on: August 12, 2016, 02:25:07 PM »
Big News ... North Carolina lost their redistricting+Gerrymandering case.
This effects almost every Current congressional district, and any 2022 redistricting too.
edit --- some have been done via commissions the Supremes have said are OK.

Common Cause has been at this for a long time.  This is their fact sheet.
http://www.commoncause.org/issues/voting-and-elections/redistricting/common-cause-v-rucho/

Woo Hoo hooray for Democracy.
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« Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 02:56:09 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Keldar

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #255 on: August 12, 2016, 05:06:43 PM »
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Offline Libertad

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #256 on: August 14, 2016, 03:36:42 PM »

Offline Chemus

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #257 on: August 14, 2016, 05:08:42 PM »
I think it's been strongly shown that you can't fix a deficit by cutting spending, because that just slows the economy down because there's less money moving around...

Cutting wasteful spending; pork, unnecessary subsidies, bad decisions by bureaucrats, pseudo-embezzlement, etc., Should be the first thing done. And your contention that cutting spending does slow down the economy is not entirely correct. If public spending is a large part of the economy, it can slow down the economy. As can increasing taxes. I'd bet that the latter slows the economy faster and to a greater extent than the former.

Growing the economy is a major way to reduce a deficit. Good luck with that, as it's hard to just make it happen. Deregulation can help, but that's a big bad no-no.

Even growth won't fix why a deficit exists: those who are spending the money do exactly nothing that produces any!
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #258 on: August 15, 2016, 06:44:13 PM »
Rudy Giuliani of all people forgot about 9/11.  Or....maybe he knows something....he did specify "radical Islamic attack"....so maybe....did he just admit Bush did 7/11?
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Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #259 on: August 16, 2016, 02:29:37 AM »