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Meta Board => Retired PbP Games => Archive => [D&D 3.5] Phantasy Star: Start of the Millenium => Topic started by: oslecamo on April 16, 2016, 09:57:16 AM

Title: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 16, 2016, 09:57:16 AM
New one because the previous reached 50 pages. Not sure if that's a good or bad sign.

Sorry for my slowness. RL really busy. Should remain busy this week quite probably but for this weekend I should have some time.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 16, 2016, 10:00:28 AM
Well, this seems like a bad situation.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 16, 2016, 05:29:34 PM
ACK! The references! THEY HUUUUUUUUUURT!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 17, 2016, 12:16:58 AM
Great update!
Thanks!

Baha asked a question that remains unanswered though:
Quote
Ayrk's statement about my talent being able to ID the monolith could be a trap through, formal request for a 28 ran on an possible Anna's in connection with Ayrk for review."

Thanks for pointing it out, updated the IC with that.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on April 17, 2016, 11:24:40 AM
New one because the previous reached 50 pages. Not sure if that's a good or bad sign.
It's a good sign according to the media. ;)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 17, 2016, 10:21:53 PM
You know, if we're getting some sort of response for this black market stuff, Ammy feels obliged to step in after wrecking their stuff. :p

Which raises the question: does she know: A) where, and B) how far is it? Or are we supposed to be standing aside and letting out info get murdered. Wasn't quite sure WHAT Hugo's plan was...
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 17, 2016, 10:48:09 PM
Since Hugo was tracking, and assuming Ammy was watching, you know where it is. As for distance, 4 rounds assuming Ammy goes with her full mecha-scale speed.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 17, 2016, 10:51:28 PM
Oh yeah, she'd grab Hugo and get going fast. xD

It's more 'what was the plan' because I cannot work out what Hugo was going for.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 17, 2016, 11:25:27 PM
Well, Hugo COULD burn a cookie on teleportation, assuming it works on a cookie. But they'd still be dropping in with minimum intel and zero backup.

So, if Ammy wants to run in, she can go ahead. Hugo will flex his government job muscle and get her some acceptable cannon fodder to join up.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 17, 2016, 11:35:02 PM
Given teleportation's potential to leave you miles out, seems like a poor choice.

Bigger question 'what is Hugo's excuse for not being grabbed and brought along'? Not that I'm against rushing in alone, it just seems prudent to grab him. :D
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on April 18, 2016, 01:32:02 AM
Why do you always want to grab Hugo!
Why can't you ever grab at Katherine!
Katherine wants to be grabbed too, Ammy~!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 18, 2016, 09:09:12 AM
Why do you always want to grab Hugo!
Why can't you ever grab at Katherine!
Katherine wants to be grabbed too, Ammy~!

You're not there to grab! :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 18, 2016, 12:04:05 PM
Given teleportation's potential to leave you miles out, seems like a poor choice.

Bigger question 'what is Hugo's excuse for not being grabbed and brought along'? Not that I'm against rushing in alone, it just seems prudent to grab him. :D

He would probably say "You go on ahead, I don't have the stomach to handle the g-forces generated by your running around."

Also, pretty sure Hugo would know the Black Market personally, though that's up to Os.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 18, 2016, 12:13:30 PM
Looks like I'm going in alone, then. :T
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 18, 2016, 12:27:15 PM
Relax. He'll be with you in a jiffy.

Preferrably while riding Murakumo.  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on May 11, 2016, 01:08:40 AM
For reference, "Combat Upgrade Procedure 92-F" basically refers to standing still while the room's automated systems smash discs containing buff spells against Hugo's body.

Let's keep it reasonable and say he gets about 6-10 buffs going that way.  :P

Any suggestions for those?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on May 11, 2016, 02:24:46 AM
You're not there to grab! :p

So she would if she could! Good!
Tis the thought that counts  :rolleyes
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on May 11, 2016, 02:12:02 PM
I feel like I missed something about a magic staff in the IC thread, if it causes insanity by touching it then why haven't you tried loading it into a potato gun to drive your enemies mad?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on May 11, 2016, 02:22:13 PM
It is a valid strategy, which we might use one day though for now its going to the labs at the next opportunity. This is pretty dangerous stuff.
Not sure what the AA would want to do with it besides study and experiments and perhaps ultimately destroying it though eventually it might be converted into something usable with the personal risks fully worked around.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on May 11, 2016, 09:59:30 PM
Speaking of which, Mao taking the staff with her to this battle?

I feel like I missed something about a magic staff in the IC thread, if it causes insanity by touching it then why haven't you tried loading it into a potato gun to drive your enemies mad?

1-Going "CONSUME EVERYTHING" is kinda bad for PCs, on the other hand is usually redundant for enemies.
2-The party still didn't fought any enemies after finding said magic staff.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 11, 2016, 10:04:24 PM
I find the mental image of Amaterasu attempting nonlethal damage hilarious.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on May 11, 2016, 10:39:42 PM
I find the mental image of Amaterasu attempting nonlethal damage hilarious.
Whoever said anything about "nonlethal"? Hugo is merely suggesting she aims for the biggest concentration of enemies at a time so it's easier to pick off the remnants.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 11, 2016, 11:19:08 PM
I find the mental image of Amaterasu attempting nonlethal damage hilarious.
Whoever said anything about "nonlethal"? Hugo is merely suggesting she aims for the biggest concentration of enemies at a time so it's easier to pick off the remnants.


More the general instruction to try and capture people.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on May 11, 2016, 11:22:58 PM
1-Going "CONSUME EVERYTHING" is kinda bad for PCs, on the other hand is usually redundant for enemies.
Hardly.

Contrary to popular belief that Sunder sucks, total destruction always yields pure profits. With overkill traits you finish enemies faster so they produce less of a drain on your resources and you also finish adventures faster allowing you to quest more often or generate excessive amounts of downtime. You'll gain level rapidly and have plenty of XP to spare in say creating more powerful items than the ones you broke.

Not that you would ever actually craft anything. In a world that throws WBL out the door slaves can craft gold out of gold and you can candle up all the wishes and epic magical items you like. And in a world that follows WBL poof a King pops in and thanks you for slaying all of his enemies, please have this chest of gold and his children to marry. And if the DM realizes he should try to pick a middle path, well there isn't one. If you can achieve total destruction that's relative in high levels, you don't need powerful items to kill your enemies to begin with and all that XP goes towards making you unkillable long enough to use it.

And that's why Artifacts in D&D have no listed cost. The DM & Player has to come together in a more idealized way to offer overly powerful items of superdoom without actually breaking the game. It almost runs like a Rogue's Sneak Attack discussion, if allowed it's pretty deadly but if cockblocked by Undead it's worthless (without acfs or gravestrike of course), have to shoot for that perfect middle ground.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on May 12, 2016, 01:09:35 AM
Quote
Speaking of which, Mao taking the staff with her to this battle?
No time to put it anywhere right now. It'll be contained and sealed off for later.

Quote
I find the mental image of Amaterasu attempting nonlethal damage hilarious.
Explosion Sign "Mega Flare"

Quote
XP to spare
Yeah. We don't get that stuff though. We level whenever it seems appropriate and encounters do not yield any XP. Only completing objectives. Sort of.
So really the best way to win is to not fight and simply complete objectives.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on May 12, 2016, 02:01:57 AM
Not that you would ever actually craft anything. In a world that throws WBL out the door slaves can craft gold out of gold and you can candle up all the wishes and epic magical items you like. And in a world that follows WBL poof a King pops in and thanks you for slaying all of his enemies, please have this chest of gold and his children to marry. And if the DM realizes he should try to pick a middle path, well there isn't one. If you can achieve total destruction that's relative in high levels, you don't need powerful items to kill your enemies to begin with and all that XP goes towards making you unkillable long enough to use it.

Actually what many people miss is that WBL works both ways.

If the party is under WBL, then yes the DM is supposed to throw them treasure.

But if the party is over WBL, then the DM is supposed to not only cut down the supply lines but actually destroy the party's excess treasure. Dire Paragon half-Tarrasque Rust Monster and stuff. There's quite a bit of gear-destroyng monsters in 3.X after all.

Also, "CONSUME EVERYTHING" makes it significantly harder to coordinate your worker slaves/shoping/crafting/political marriages. :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on May 12, 2016, 01:26:26 PM
Actually what many people miss is that WBL works both ways.
I know, I'm pretty sure I was the one that reminded everyone of that back when I was first releasing the Artificer to my Enlightenment series and if I recall, you asked about the idiom of "eat your heart out artificer" over using Sacrifice.

Artifacts sound good through. I think after I get the ranged stuff I'm going to move to listing Artifacts, there are hundreds of them and no one ever uses them. There are bound to be some that really don't break things, like Eberron's Byeshk Symbiont is pretty harmless for mid-level characters.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on May 24, 2016, 01:32:55 PM
Maia then reports: “Certainly, waste not, want not. We fully support maximum efficiency on the use of resources.
:o

Maia is a Phyrexian!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on May 24, 2016, 03:04:29 PM
Everybody, name your top 6 favorite Wizard buff spells level 5 and under!  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on May 24, 2016, 04:01:58 PM
Displacement?

And Feeble-minded  :plotting
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 24, 2016, 07:24:01 PM
I have no opinions! I don't do wizardry! D:

... also I guess I just... keep going on to the destination? Moving fast leaves little time for talking. As does Dark Souls' consuming your life.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on May 24, 2016, 07:30:35 PM
Everybody, name your top 6 favorite Wizard buff spells level 5 and under!  :P
Draconic Polymorph?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on May 24, 2016, 11:29:05 PM
Well, my top spells are applying for specific combos and builds, though there are a few general buffs that work well in most situations.

Heart of Earth : Hey, extra HP with emergency stoneskin effect.
The other Heart of spells : All neat considering they offer emergency spells that are usually needed in certain moments and can be invoked with a swift action that lasts long enough to help when needed. You also get some critical hit dmg protection off hem. Water is nice for the Freedom of Movement (which can be taken by itself. 10mins/lvl lasts a while but I find Heart of Water more interesting as you just cast it once and it lasts about the entire day of activity and you don't have to worry about wasting a standard action casting FoM if you need it.)
Mage Armor, Greater : Because AC.
Ray Deflection : Do you like being targeted by some of the meanest effects in the game? Especially those easy to optimize? That thing helps.
Improved Blink : Doesn't last long and it isn't all that difficult to bypass but when it works, it works wonders.
Flight of the Dragon : Need flight all day without your mecha?
Greater Invisibility : Easier to do your stuff when people don't know you're there.
Heroism : Not a bit bonus but it applies to a bunch of stuff.

Quote
Six enemies (within 30, 40, 65, 75 and 105 115 feet respectively, divided in three pairs within 20 feet of each other and each pair 60 feet away from each other) and eighteen ship citizens in sight, in clusters of six at distances of 50, 90 and 130 feet from Mao in opposite directions.
If each group is in opposite directions from Mao (assuming she appeared right in the middle), how can they possibly be within 60-ft of eachother?
It wouldn't be possible even if they were all positioned in a straight line.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on June 01, 2016, 03:22:45 AM
Yay missing pending actions...

Kuroimaken: Can you decide on Hugo's buffs please?

Anomander: I noticed a small incosistency with Code 01's gunlash. The sheet says it's crafted of Pure Iron, but you're claiming it has the abilities of both Pure Iron and Pure Cold Iron, which would demand a special feat or ability.

Soro:
You can either buff yourself before entering the mecha or after entering the mecha, either works, although you can't stack the same spell this way.

Quote
Six enemies (within 30, 40, 65, 75 and 105 115 feet respectively, divided in three pairs within 20 feet of each other and each pair 60 feet away from each other) and eighteen ship citizens in sight, in clusters of six at distances of 50, 90 and 130 feet from Mao in opposite directions.
If each group is in opposite directions from Mao (assuming she appeared right in the middle), how can they possibly be within 60-ft of eachother?
It wouldn't be possible even if they were all positioned in a straight line.

I meant they're keeping away from each other, more of a triangle than a line.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 01, 2016, 12:40:28 PM
Quote
I noticed a small incosistency with Code 01's gunlash. The sheet says it's crafted of Pure Iron, but you're claiming it has the abilities of both Pure Iron and Pure Cold Iron, which would demand a special feat or ability.
You're absolutely correct! I probably figured I'd copy the pure metal's ability in the description for reference and put in the wrong kind of iron. Fixed!

Quote
I meant they're keeping away from each other, more of a triangle than a line.
That's what I meant as well. I only mentioned the line since they would then be as close as they can be between themselves (even if placed in the same direction), whereas placed within a triangle they would be even farther apart. For example, those  at 30-40 feet couldn't possible be within 60-ft of those at 105-115 feet. Even in a line. If that distance is calculated in a separate direction from Mao at their center, they are even father apart.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on June 01, 2016, 01:34:08 PM
Yay missing pending actions...

Kuroimaken: Can you decide on Hugo's buffs please?

Anomander: I noticed a small incosistency with Code 01's gunlash. The sheet says it's crafted of Pure Iron, but you're claiming it has the abilities of both Pure Iron and Pure Cold Iron, which would demand a special feat or ability.

Soro:
You can either buff yourself before entering the mecha or after entering the mecha, either works, although you can't stack the same spell this way.

Quote
Six enemies (within 30, 40, 65, 75 and 105 115 feet respectively, divided in three pairs within 20 feet of each other and each pair 60 feet away from each other) and eighteen ship citizens in sight, in clusters of six at distances of 50, 90 and 130 feet from Mao in opposite directions.
If each group is in opposite directions from Mao (assuming she appeared right in the middle), how can they possibly be within 60-ft of eachother?
It wouldn't be possible even if they were all positioned in a straight line.

I meant they're keeping away from each other, more of a triangle than a line.

Sorry 'bout that... End of the semester rush is killing me here. That's why I asked for suggestions...
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on June 01, 2016, 07:48:42 PM
Quote
I meant they're keeping away from each other, more of a triangle than a line.
That's what I meant as well. I only mentioned the line since they would then be as close as they can be between themselves (even if placed in the same direction), whereas placed within a triangle they would be even farther apart. For example, those  at 30-40 feet couldn't possible be within 60-ft of those at 105-115 feet. Even in a line. If that distance is calculated in a separate direction from Mao at their center, they are even father apart.

The battle is in three dimensions. The three pairs of enemies form a  triangle with 60 feet sides that is the base of a wonky triangular pyramid with Mao at  its fourth vertice.

I could draw a map, but like Kuro I'm kinda being swamped with work before summer vacations arrive.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 02, 2016, 01:56:12 AM
Pretty busy here too. I actually tried to draw the map quickly in 3-D.

So 60-ft away from each other but only on the X and Y axis. Got it. On the Z axis they would then be anything but 60-ft. away from each-other and, to keep this pyramid working each pair would be farther from the civilians than it would seem, judging only by the distance each is away from Mao. Unless we also have flying civilians. The description that they were standing between Mao and the civilians made it feel like everyone was on ground level.
The ship's ceiling there would have to be pretty high though.

Edit: To simplify thing I'll change the tactic to something where I don't have to think about distances much. Been a while since I last used the drones.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on June 04, 2016, 12:16:07 AM
I'm always busy, does that count?

Speaking of, if Baha is 23 seconds out you get three rounds of combat in before I even get to show up. Try to avoid killing them all until then :p
I asked a buff related question, I know the Mechs generally have no use for being buffed. Like what good would Bull's Strength be if they don't have Strength scores? But I'm wanting to pop in with Friendly Fire, Ten Suns, & Heroism in. And the first one got me thinking if I cast that outside my mech would the effect include my mech when I'm in it? How does that work with other Spells like Haste which grant a bonus to AC, would the mech benefit from it? etc. If I need to worry about double buffing, I'd just like a head up to plan around it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 04, 2016, 12:28:09 AM
There is a lot of action beyond the smoke and debris so there is a lot more going on beyond there.
The enemies Mao is unto are fighting civilians and those armed civilians haven't all been slaughtered yet (which normally wouldn't be so hard), so if anything they are just there to have us waste time while whatever is beyond the smoke and debris does what its doing (notice that the maids Hugo sent aren't here?). Which so far seems good at making people scream. More over, they are civilians defending on three fronts, so no single front is particularly important enough for them to focus on. Which means they are just cleaning up and probably also implies that those doing the clean up aren't really important.

As for your buffs, whatever affects your character affects the Mech. The important distinction is that things happening to the mech don't necessarily happen to the pilot while the pilot's stats and buffs carry unto his mecha. So; things happening to the pilot before entering the mecha carries on when he starts piloting it. Things the pilot does to himself while piloting carries unto the mecha. However, outside sources trying to affect Baham would have to do it through his mecha, which is harder to pull off considering the limitations of non-mecha vs mecha.

A cleric on foot might have trouble applying a buff to the mecha. A cleric on a cleric-casting-enabled-mecha would be able to affect the mecha normally.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on June 04, 2016, 12:32:01 AM
Ahh ok.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on June 06, 2016, 08:46:53 PM
Questions on Divine Flame for Ando.

Control Rod
"a Control Rod may be loaded with an explosive charge and fire it like an ammunition" I assume that means it takes a Full-Round to reload for it's 2d6*attacks shot. But how can I use this? For example, can I Full-Attack for Bite/Claw/Rod_Shot/Wing/Wing/Tail or do I reapply a new damage stack for each Natural Weapon traded in? For example, three BAB based attacks and five secondary Natural converts to 2d6*8?

Heat
Often totally overlooked by me but Heat boosts some other attributes. "you may no longer use Divine Flame maneuvers but may still activate or maintain a Divine Flame stance, which however slows your Heat cooldown." So for example, could I use Fission Foot, a stance that can be used to rapidly gain heat for a minor ac boost, while overheated as a purposeful sustained AC & Nuclear Dragon bonuses?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 06, 2016, 09:47:39 PM
Control rods and explosive charges
Mostly something that was meant to be used along with explosives crafted with the former Craft (explosive) skill though any explosive (say, some dynamite) could be loaded in with a full-round action. Like the Sapper's Launcher. It isn't a concern for the normal ranged plasma shots.
I'll clarify and also clearly indicate that the damage in a full-attack isn't bumped for every attack possible even if you only make one attack with the CR and every other attacks with another weapon. It is for each attack spent into the CR.

Quote
can I Full-Attack for Bite/Claw/Rod_Shot/Wing/Wing/Tail
You can indeed make the rod shot and use the natural weapons in the same full-attack but you wouldn't be able to convert the natural attacks into a stronger rod shot since they are not ranged attacks. Unless you're using one of the tricks to turn them into ranged attacks, of course.  ;)
In the case you used the damage would be multiplied by the number of attacks allowed by the character's BaB.
Edit: Ugh. Though I supposed the original intent was to convert any ranged attack that could have been used with the CR itself. It makes more sense, at least.

Heat
Absolutely! Unlike pretty much everything else until the initiator gains access to Abyss Nova “Big Bang”, the nuclear dragon actually benefits from having Heat. If you don't mind not having access to the maneuvers, you could totally go around glowing so hard people can't directly look at you. Which could be quite all right given you've also got spellcasting.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on June 07, 2016, 11:02:40 AM
Eh, even if the Arcane Pilot's blasting Spells were any good they suck compared to Divine Flame. Rather there is a nich there, cap is HD and cool down is ConMod so with the right Templates or paid for Spell Access it's possible to Overheat during your turn and fully cool down at the end of it. For the Nuclear Dragon that comes with a set of useful buffs to keep in mind. Through I like the 7th level Stance's defense a little to much in Ols's near-death damage figures for more glass cannons.

And now knowing that about the Rod. It's base damage (2d6) is higher than a Claw (1d6) so I'll start using it as a Club but later on with another level (if that ever happens) I might look to turning it into a ranged weapon. Even a simple crossbow converted over will grant the illiterate attacks from BAB, it could be useful to smack one target instead of ten. ;)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on June 14, 2016, 11:42:19 PM
Sorry for delay on updating, workworkwork, I should be able to update in June 25.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on June 15, 2016, 12:58:29 AM
No problemo amigo :v
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on June 25, 2016, 02:00:48 AM
Ok, was starting to prepare the update, noticed that Hugo doesn't have any actions. Is he gonna be rushing there on foot, his mecha, teleporting, or something else? I'll be assuming mecha riding since I recall Kuro mentioning that. Can always be retconned a bit (was just a decoy to hide the real Hugo) as necessary.

So 60-ft away from each other but only on the X and Y axis. Got it. On the Z axis they would then be anything but 60-ft. away from each-other and, to keep this pyramid working each pair would be farther from the civilians than it would seem, judging only by the distance each is away from Mao. Unless we also have flying civilians. The description that they were standing between Mao and the civilians made it feel like everyone was on ground level.
The ship's ceiling there would have to be pretty high though.

To clarify, it's less of "high ceiling" and more of "lots of collateral damage between compartments so ceilings/floors have collapsed and there's huge piles of debris"
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 25, 2016, 06:49:04 AM
Sounds good!

Something I'm wondering, is the miss chance some kind of concealment? Just wondering because it typically is.
Are these guys working on mecha-scale? Mostly for the purpose of "Combat between mechas and non-mechas", are they treated as mechas or non-mechas? (the Born to Fight feat not being relevant). Mostly asking since they seem to be androids on the pictures, and do not seem to be within anything like a mecha, though they still did some self-destruction trick typical to mechas so its a little confusing.
Is the strange radiation a supernatural effect? Also...

Quote
Mao sees that one of them didn't explode, rather being projected by her partner's blast! Burning and quickly disintegrating,  they desesperately grab and clutch to Mao's plating, releasing a strange radiation that interferes with your systems.
Who/what is "they"? There is one of the enemy units to move to Mao and is grappling her or something? (otherwise where is that unit now?) If so, AoO procs for entering her reach? Did any of it require an attack roll ranged/melee to clutch at the plating? I've a few counters that apply for that kind of stuff, such as Radiant Rolling Counter.

Is the leader the survivor of the second squad's attacks that did the radiation thing?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 25, 2016, 08:20:45 AM
I see two, right? How far apart/far away from civilians?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on June 25, 2016, 10:31:22 AM
The two last standing unknown warriors are 20 feet away from each other and 110/115 feet away from Mao. The civilians were 50, 90 and 130 feet apart from Mao. Have fun figuring the math of that out. But if you want to ask is if you can drop a mini nuke on them without burning bystanders, then yes as long as it's not something super big.

Something I'm wondering, is the miss chance some kind of concealment? Just wondering because it typically is.
Not concealment.

Are these guys working on mecha-scale? Mostly for the purpose of "Combat between mechas and non-mechas", are they treated as mechas or non-mechas? (the Born to Fight feat not being relevant). Mostly asking since they seem to be androids on the pictures, and do not seem to be within anything like a mecha, though they still did some self-destruction trick typical to mechas so its a little confusing.
They're not mechas but their weapons are powerful enough to fully affect mechas.

Is the strange radiation a supernatural effect?
No.

Also...
Quote
Mao sees that one of them didn't explode, rather being projected by her partner's blast! Burning and quickly disintegrating,  they desesperately grab and clutch to Mao's plating, releasing a strange radiation that interferes with your systems.
Who/what is "they"?
The leader unknown warrior that got all beaten up.

There is one of the enemy units to move to Mao and is grappling her or something? (otherwise where is that unit now?) If so, AoO procs for entering her reach? Did any of it require an attack roll ranged/melee to clutch at the plating? I've a few counters that apply for that kind of stuff, such as Radiant Rolling Counter. Is the leader the survivor of the second squad's attacks that did the radiation thing?

No actual attack rolls or movement involved, it's another suicide technique. They're already dead.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 25, 2016, 10:34:02 AM
Yeah, I just wanted to know if I could do an area thing. Calculating exact movement vectors for spring attack madness isn't on my list of priorities.

I've been watching Getter Robo stuff recently. Naturally, chest beams are a valuable attack. :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 25, 2016, 12:55:45 PM
Sounds good! Where is the "further down the ship" place (distance and so on) since Mao will likely be going there now if Amaterasu takes care of the remaining two unknown warriors.

Quote
They're not mechas but their weapons are powerful enough to fully affect mechas.
Time for some disarms. New stuff!  :D
I suppose the self-destructs led to no bits of the unknown warriors being left behind to loot?
On a related thought process, when we have a mecha, can we self destruct? As in, kill ourselves without having to go through the trouble of attacking yourself with an automatic critical hit and willingly failing the Fort save against massive damage. No special damage to stuff around or anything. You just self-destruct the mecha to die. Can every mecha do something like this and if so what's the action to do it?

Quote
No actual attack rolls or movement involved, it's another suicide technique. They're already dead.
They killed themselves? Mao cannot kill anyone. If she would kill a living opponent, she instead leaves them at -9 HP, stabilized and unable to take any actions (including killing themselves?). Any fast healing and regeneration they had is disabled for 3 days. Not killing is part of the whole point she has this ability. I recall androids are alive for technical purposes since that's how I could take Ancient Temple maneuvers back then. They're not androids?

Also, just so you know before it comes up, I've got the Chinese Star maneuver Catching a White Feather that allows me to counter with a disarm/sunder when I'm attacked in melee, but only before knowing the result of the enemy's attack roll. Since that is kinda difficult to work with on PbP, I suppose I should point out that if Mao is attacked in melee by some kind of fancy weapon or by someone who deals special negative effects with one, I might be tempted to have her use that counter before knowing whether it hits her or not.

Quote from: RD
I've been watching Getter Robo stuff recently. Naturally, chest beams are a valuable attack. :P
In your case, for everyone involved. No doubt!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on June 25, 2016, 03:36:24 PM
Quote
They killed themselves? Mao cannot kill anyone. If she would kill a living opponent, she instead leaves them at -9 HP, stabilized and unable to take any actions (including killing themselves?). Any fast healing and regeneration they had is disabled for 3 days. Not killing is part of the whole point she has this ability. I recall androids are alive for technical purposes since that's how I could take Ancient Temple maneuvers back then. They're not androids?

I don't see the point of everything after "They killed themselves?" because they killed themselves, Mao didn't kill them. They appear to have thrown themselves at Mao and pushed their own self-destruct buttons. I don't believe Os was implying that Mao automatically would do enough damage on an AoO to kill them and called it moot to roll, no, they legit kamikazed you by the looks of it.  :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 25, 2016, 09:08:29 PM
There may be a point since perhaps they couldn't kill themselves. That's why I'm asking. There is a lot of passive abilities to go around and I'd rather not assume its all remembered.

Only one of them moved to her and did something. The others just 'sploded where they were.
If they indeed killed themselves, then the question of whether it is supposed to be automatic upon "dying" or not is relevant if Mao did enough damage to get them to -10 hp since they didn't die and wouldn't be able to do actions to blow themselves up.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on June 25, 2016, 11:20:11 PM
Sounds good! Where is the "further down the ship" place (distance and so on) since Mao will likely be going there now if Amaterasu takes care of the remaining two unknown warriors.
Some 100 feet right from Mao's current position.

Quote
They're not mechas but their weapons are powerful enough to fully affect mechas.
Time for some disarms. New stuff!  :D
I suppose the self-destructs led to no bits of the unknown warriors being left behind to loot?
Correct.

On a related thought process, when we have a mecha, can we self destruct? As in, kill ourselves without having to go through the trouble of attacking yourself with an automatic critical hit and willingly failing the Fort save against massive damage. No special damage to stuff around or anything. You just self-destruct the mecha to die. Can every mecha do something like this and if so what's the action to do it?
Unless you took Glory in Death or have some suicide class feature, mechas don't have self-destruct mechanisms by default. Critically kill yourself it is (http://gallery.zeonic-republic.net/displayimage.php?album=117&pos=129).

Hmmm, maybe I should add some rule that mechas destroyed by a critical hit explode violently to represent reactor hits and stuff.

Quote
No actual attack rolls or movement involved, it's another suicide technique. They're already dead.
They killed themselves? Mao cannot kill anyone. If she would kill a living opponent, she instead leaves them at -9 HP, stabilized and unable to take any actions (including killing themselves?). Any fast healing and regeneration they had is disabled for 3 days. Not killing is part of the whole point she has this ability.
Yes, they killed themselves. Immediate actions so they could be triggered before being knocked out.

I recall androids are alive for technical purposes since that's how I could take Ancient Temple maneuvers back then.
More like androids have an expiration date instead of being flawless anti-entropy engines (note to self: add fuel/energy charges to androids. Won't be more penalizing than fleshies needing to eat).


They're not androids?
You don't know that yet. :smirk

Also, just so you know before it comes up, I've got the Chinese Star maneuver Catching a White Feather that allows me to counter with a disarm/sunder when I'm attacked in melee, but only before knowing the result of the enemy's attack roll. Since that is kinda difficult to work with on PbP, I suppose I should point out that if Mao is attacked in melee by some kind of fancy weapon or by someone who deals special negative effects with one, I might be tempted to have her use that counter before knowing whether it hits her or not.
So can I assume that if Mao doesn't know a weapon inflicts special negative effects before being hit, she won't try to counter, correct?

Quote from: RD
I've been watching Getter Robo stuff recently. Naturally, chest beams are a valuable attack. :P
In your case, for everyone involved. No doubt!
AAAAMMMMMAAATTTERRRAASSSUUUU BBBEEEEAAAAMMMM!!!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 25, 2016, 11:43:47 PM
If it ever becomes Getter Beam, we may have a problem on our hands. Amaterasu is big enough already. : D
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 26, 2016, 01:57:08 AM
Quote
So can I assume that if Mao doesn't know a weapon inflicts special negative effects before being hit, she won't try to counter, correct?
Absolutely! Though if the weapon suddenly starts glowing ominously or something similar it may be tell-tale enough to warrant that kind of caution.

Now to find a way to sort of capture them without them blowing to bits.
...All right. Figured it out.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on June 27, 2016, 05:05:40 AM
Anomander, just to check, where are the dolls getting pseudo-evasion? Because I don't seem to find it in your character sheet and Puppeteer Theater doesn't grant it, only the higher level Doll Judgement stances.

Also Mysteryous Millenium's Revival specifically only works on allies, which I would say somebody else who's blown themselves up just to hinder you wouldn't qualify for.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on June 27, 2016, 05:27:55 AM
Clearly Mao is a traitor and is working with the mysterious invaders AND JUST SOLD HERSELF OUT AS A DOUBLE AGENT HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


*cough* -_-'
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 27, 2016, 11:09:04 AM
Quote
Anomander, just to check, where are the dolls getting pseudo-evasion? Because I don't seem to find it in your character sheet and Puppeteer Theater doesn't grant it, only the higher level Doll Judgement stances.
Ring of Evasion

Quote
Also Mysteryous Millenium's Revival specifically only works on allies, which I would say somebody else who's blown themselves up just to hinder you wouldn't qualify for.
Its all very relative. We can choose a rock or a gust of wind to be our enemy for all practical purposes so it would be the same for allies.  That unknown warrior is probably an ally of Mao despite it all. It just doesn't know it yet/anymore. Mao is very, very nice and very trusting in the better side of morality. Goodness is reaches out to all but the nonredeemable, and even then sometimes its light shines through.
For example, if, say, Amaterasu got herself dominated by an enemy mage. Mao considers her to be an ally even while Ame might be actively trying to kill her, and so she could use an ability that affects allies to cure her of the domination effect. Every enemy is an ally waiting to happen.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 27, 2016, 01:19:37 PM
Relative points of view aren't going to help you define someone as an ally when they: A) tried to kill you, B) are total strangers, C) aren't associated with any known allied group, and D) would literally rather die than help you. At that point, it's wishful thinking. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 27, 2016, 01:46:05 PM
They look android-like, so in her experience they are either androids or something like Erinyes Prototype; androids to her are all potential allies as members of the AA and if they are humanoids converted into android-likeness like Anna was they probably got mind-controlled and need help.
True goodness never stops helping people just because they are strangers.
That they got blown up could just as easily be a way for whoeever is controlling them to prevent anyone from helping them. and using them to get back to the source. As far as Mao is concerned they are probably victims.

Remember the living entities that were sensed in the dome, moving around? All likely corrupted humanoids turned into monsters. They are all civilians that could potentially be returned to normal.
Whoever the real enemy is likely responsible for that as well, so that creates a pattern where the enemy likes changing people to turn them into weapons to do its bidding. Now can just as easily be another instance of the same tactic.

Oh, she is also a saint. Goodness that goes beyond what comes naturally.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on June 27, 2016, 07:38:01 PM
Mao used Doll's war against them.

Doll's war specifically only works against opponents/enemies.

You had already declared them as non-allies this very round.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 27, 2016, 07:42:21 PM
I've realised two concerning things. Number one, Amaterasu now has an axe. Number two, she keeps getting bigger.

What have we done? :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 27, 2016, 08:41:31 PM
Quote
'Doll's war specifically only works against opponents/enemies.

You had already declared them as non-allies this very round.' is not a valid dice string!
Mao doesn't consider people to be her enemies unless they represent everything she is against but they are adversaries if they attack her, or otherwise oppose her for as long as they do. When they no longer oppose her, they are no longer opponents.
Once dead, they no longer oppose her, and are no longer her opponents.

Allies can be opponents and adversaries all the same. If an ally was possessed/dominated, such as might very well be the case in our current situation, we can attack it like an enemy since it is attacking us. It doesn't mean we can no longer treat them as allies for the purpose of helping them. Which is what Mao is doing now.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on June 27, 2016, 10:41:51 PM
Yet even in your IC talk you just called them enemies, despite only two of them having attacked you so far.

And Mao didn't even bother to talk/sense motive, so she clearly never considered the chance that they're charmed/dominated. Deploy drones. Maximum beatdown. Surrender is not an option.

And who knows, maybe they wanted to die. What if the unknown warriors have loved ones that will be executed in gruesome painful ways if they let themselves be captured by the Android Administration?

Plus, while declaring somebody an enemy only demands one side to do it, declaring somebody an ally is a two-way affair. Unless you want to claim enemies can declare themselves allies to benefit from the party's ally-only area effects and stuff.
 

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 27, 2016, 11:53:45 PM
Quote
Yet even in your IC talk you just called them enemies, despite only two of them having attacked you so far.
Of course. They are still opposing her.

Quote
And Mao didn't even bother to talk/sense motive, so she clearly never considered the chance that they're charmed/dominated. Deploy drones. Maximum beatdown. Surrender is not an option.
Naturally! They saw her, then attacked her without saying anything while the others were attacking civilians.
That sealed the deal. If they are androids and don't recognize her, something wrong may be going on. But they are attacking civilians, so she must stop them as soon as possible to protect them. She knows she cannot kill them so she can just knock them down to protect the civilians and sort it out with them after in better, and safer, conditions.
Engaging in conversation is pointless and not an inefficient way of figuring out what is going on since while she talks they'd still be killing more civilians, along with whatever is going on further back there. She may be nice but she's still a machine. She's here to bring order to the place. She can have tea with them when they are no longer a danger to others and themselves.
If, for example, Amaterasu was dominated and started attacking her and killing civilians with her nukes, Mao wouldn't risk tactics that can fail to stop her killing people more people, she wouldn't hesitate to beat her lights out to unconsciousness to stop the rampage then find a way to stop the domination.

Quote
And who knows, maybe they wanted to die. What if the unknown warriors have loved ones that will be executed in gruesome painful ways if they let themselves be captured by the Android Administration?
That's right! They may really need help! Their loved ones could be in danger but the civilians they are currently attacking are in an immediately less theoretical danger of death than these possible loved ones, so they'll take priority for now. Basic peacekeeping procedures. She'll see about those possibly endangered loved ones once they are informed on the matter, and if the damage has already been done, it'll at least perhaps help them to nail whose responsible to put a stop to more androids being forced to kill against their wishes. They ended a war for this already.

Quote
Plus, while declaring somebody an enemy only demands one side to do it, declaring somebody an ally is a two-way affair. Unless you want to claim enemies can declare themselves allies to benefit from the party's ally-only area effects and stuff.
They can certainly declare themselves allies to provide effects with benefits. If they want to receive them they have to be acknowledged as allies by the one providing the beneficial effect since the effect that relies on the perception of the one doing the effect, not the one receiving it. If the ability requires the target to be willing, that's a different story.
In our case, they are welcome to benefit from her support buffs while being dead and no longer opposing her.
It's very similar to how it went down with Arryk. She'd love to gets things in good terms with the girl but she had to be handled and neutralized for her own good and to protect the rest of the ship's inhabitants. She would have tried to revive her as well if she had been able to get there in time.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on June 28, 2016, 01:21:28 AM
It's very similar to how it went down with Arryk.
I was thinking the same exact thing but for literately none of the reasons you posted.

At least this time I get to eat the popcorn.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on June 28, 2016, 01:28:34 AM
It's very similar to how it went down with Arryk.
I was thinking the same exact thing but for literately none of the reasons you posted.

At least this time I get to eat the popcorn.

Good news! Katherine is literally bringing popcorn.  :cool


And gosh, I thought Anomander was just messing with Os but this is sounding like a serious argument...... -_-'
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on June 28, 2016, 02:31:30 AM
Ally (noun): (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ally) a person, group, or nation that is associated with another or others for some common cause or purpose.

Biology. a plant, animal, or other organism bearing an evolutionary relationship to another, often as a member of the same family:

a person who associates or cooperates with another; supporter.


The unknown warriors do not have a common cause or purpose with Mao. They are not an organism bearing an evolutionary relationship to Mao. They have not associated, cooperated or supported Mao by any means. They fit zero of the definitions for "ally".

Background fluff is no excuse to change the very definition of words.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 28, 2016, 03:44:22 AM
Quote
The unknown warriors do not have a common cause or purpose with Mao.
That's what I'm saying. We don't know for sure. They could be allies with an ill effect making them hostile. They probably are.
Again, Mao suspects they were tinkered with and is trying to save at least one of them. Android fellowship.
Quote
They are not an organism bearing an evolutionary relationship to Mao
They look pretty android-like to her.

I'm not changing the definition, only stating that this definition applies in her perception of the unknown warrior. Another victim that needs saving.
For the same reason that, in a character's mind such as your interpretation of the crusader, someone can see a rock or another harmless piece of something and see it as something that fits the definition of an enemy which, if you look it up, a rock doesn't exactly fit into.


Oh, I'll note that we can move the game forward. This is all something in the sidelines that isn't really important and can be altered/removed later if needs be since Mao herself won't interact with the unknown warrior anyway. It'd be handled by Code 25 which is likely to have nothing else to do for a while anyway.
Just need to know what's beyond further into the ship to update my turn's remaining actions.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on June 28, 2016, 03:55:18 AM
He also said being an ally is a two-way street. If you are their enemy, they are not your ally. Both parties gotta agree.

Are you seriously arguing this? We can literally just buy a raise dead later for chump change. Or, Mao apparently has background access to free clones to be made of unwilling subjects sooooo...........

Besides, they just look like humanoid-shaped robot drones to me. Not really much at all like how the Android race is described in the SRW Races thread. They're more likely more closely related to your Dolls than anything else.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 28, 2016, 04:07:30 AM
Quote
He also said being an ally is a two-way street. If you are their enemy, they are not your ally.
Not necessarily. Case of the dominated ally in point.

Quote
We can literally just buy a raise dead later for chump change. Or, Mao apparently has background access to free clones to be made of unwilling subjects sooooo...........
Doesn't work. Raise dead needs a body and cloning requires at least a limb. They self-destruct so there is nothing left to use. This is why this could be important.

Quote
Besides, they just look like humanoid-shaped robot drones to me. Not really much at all like how the Android race is described in the SRW Races thread. They're more likely more closely related to your Dolls than anything else.
They have a classic Android appearance as featured in PSO, which is the campaign theme were are playing. So they look very much like androids.
Mao's drones only look like androids because she modeled them to look like some. Also, when we looked at the footage of the invasion, I recall it being clearly stated that they what we saw were androids and supposedly these guys are among the folks that did it.
You'll remember that during the invasion everyone though they had authority in the place, as they gave orders and got people going into the teleporters, which also indicates that they may have been among the first colonists, likely among the androids managing the project, until they got participating into the nasty business. Likely by the same people that turned colonists into monsters and turned Anna into an android-like creature.
So they probably are indeed allies of Mao as fellow AA representatives on Ragol until something happened there that led to the invasion.

I'm surprised I seem to be the only that sees this coming as a very likely scenario given one of Osle's recurring themes in DMing is the taint and transformation of stuff into evil versions. Always makes a good story.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on June 28, 2016, 06:03:43 AM
Aight, I'm out. Good luck Os, I'ma just go quietly wait for my turn then  :whistle
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on June 28, 2016, 06:49:01 AM
Quote
The unknown warriors do not have a common cause or purpose with Mao.
That's what I'm saying. We don't know for sure. They could be allies with an ill effect making them hostile. They probably are.
Again, Mao suspects they were tinkered with and is trying to save at least one of them. Android fellowship.
Quote
They are not an organism bearing an evolutionary relationship to Mao
They look pretty android-like to her.

I'm not changing the definition, only stating that this definition applies in her perception of the unknown warrior. Another victim that needs saving.
For the same reason that, in a character's mind such as your interpretation of the crusader, someone can see a rock or another harmless piece of something and see it as something that fits the definition of an enemy which, if you look it up, a rock doesn't exactly fit into.
O'rrly?
Enemy (noun) (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/enemy)
1. a person who feels hatred for, fosters harmful designs against, or engages in antagonistic activities against another; an adversary or opponent.
2.
an armed foe; an opposing military force:
The army attacked the enemy at dawn.
3.
a hostile nation or state.
4.
a citizen of such a state.
5.
enemies, persons, nations, etc., that are hostile to one another:
Let's make up and stop being enemies.
6.
something harmful or prejudicial

By definition, "enemy" can indeed apply to non-sentient things. And rocks do happen to be the oldest weapon in existence.

The only way "ally" could apply to the unknown warriors is if Mao has somehow become schyzophrenic and unable to tell reality from dream anymore. Allies=/=victims.

Just need to know what's beyond further into the ship to update my turn's remaining actions.
In her current delirious state Mao sees pink bunnies playing in a flower field under a purple sun.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 28, 2016, 07:07:09 AM
I'm surprised I seem to be the only that sees this coming as a very likely scenario given one of Osle's recurring themes in DMing is the taint and transformation of stuff into evil versions. Always makes a good story.

Whether it's a likely scenario or not has nothing to do with whether they're allies.

And I'd rather avoid every enemy from now on getting to take advantage of attacks that don't hurt allies or area buffs.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 28, 2016, 11:16:22 AM
Quote
The only way "ally" could apply to the unknown warriors is if Mao has somehow become schyzophrenic and unable to tell reality from dream anymore. Allies=/=victims
Or believes that they are probably fellow Android Administration representative that went in the first wave of colonists that have been tempered with. Which she does. Which is also very possible. Androids willingly going against the AA's interests? What a strange thought.

Quote
By definition, "enemy" can indeed apply to non-sentient things. And rocks do happen to be the oldest weapon in existence.
There we go. The one line that can somewhat be interpreted to justify abusing the targeting system. Because it needs abusing, right?

And now Mao is faced with fellow androids that shares an evolutionary relationship with her and were among members of her organization in Ragol that got cleared by a group that specializes in corrupting people into evil minions. And she cannot help them because it may be an abuse of the targeting system. Not until she knows for sure that they are indeed infected members of her group. All right.

Quote
In her current delirious state Mao sees pink bunnies playing in a flower field under a purple sun.
I don't mind Yoshiko being in her own little world since she didn't attack anyone yet but I see there's no point to it since solid proof of fellowship is required to see it as an ally. Unknown is still dead. Moving on.

Also, any official/homebrew rules applying for targeting body parts to sever them?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on June 28, 2016, 11:57:22 AM
Also, any official/homebrew rules applying for targeting body parts to sever them?
Ambush Feats (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/categories/ambush/index.html).
Also my personal favorite (http://dokdorspace.com/dndtools/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/grim-revenge--208/index.html).

Pretty much anything more is broken if it can directly be used in combat.
Scale by AC? Just focus on your attack bonus.
Scale by damage? Pointless, you were just hit with like 760 damage, use nonlethal and chop limbs off afterwards.
Random? Pretty much just flavor and a hate-PCs option.
etc.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 28, 2016, 01:42:21 PM
Thanks for the input! The Ambush feats aren't severing the limbs off though. Nice find on Grim Revenge.

As for other means, I'm not sure.  They'll still blow themselves up with non-lethal damage since they blew themselves up when they got unconscious, not when they died since Mao cannot kill them.
Damage that could kill them applied to specific areas could work since losing a limb is technically better than getting killed. I recall searching for official dismemberment rules but I forgot where/if I found them. I'll check around once I've more time.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 01, 2016, 11:01:12 PM
I suppose it's a good thing even AA's Spring Attack doesn't work with manoeuvres. Else having no idea what's happening a bit further down would be weird.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on July 02, 2016, 08:33:27 AM
Mao's drones notice that there's more sounds of distant battle both in front and to the sides, although not as intense as the ones detected before, indicating this section is the one with higher level of violence right now.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 02, 2016, 12:51:46 PM
SO I PICKED MY BUFFS

Let's go with

Greater Luminous Armor (or greater mage armor if Osle decides I shouldn't have access to that  :P )
Greater Blink
Improved Invisibility
Haste, because hey, extra mobility is nice
Ray Deflection
Greater Arcane Sight
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 02, 2016, 01:21:17 PM
Good spells! How are you reaching the battlefield?

@Osle: I can read their positions two ways;
-Three groups, each with 2 unknown warriors and 1 unknown marauder
-Four groups (since there are four groups of civilians), three with a couple of unknown warriors and one with a trio of unknown marauders.

Also, are they bunched within 10-feet of each other like the formation of the previous squad of u.w., with each group a notable distance from the other groups?
And I'll note that I'm not sure what the AC of a drone/doll is supposed to be. They use the initiator's saves but their AC isn't clear beyond size+dex modifiers and how the initiator's buffs affect them.

I don't expect them to last more than one round anyway but that's always been part of the strategy.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 02, 2016, 03:02:22 PM
Good spells! How are you reaching the battlefield?

@Osle: I can read their positions two ways;
-Three groups, each with 2 unknown warriors and 1 unknown marauder
-Four groups (since there are four groups of civilians), three with a couple of unknown warriors and one with a trio of unknown marauders.

Also, are they bunched within 10-feet of each other like the formation of the previous squad of u.w., with each group a notable distance from the other groups?
And I'll note that I'm not sure what the AC of a drone/doll is supposed to be. They use the initiator's saves but their AC isn't clear beyond size+dex modifiers and how the initiator's buffs affect them.

I don't expect them to last more than one round anyway but that's always been part of the strategy.

Riding my tiny mecha, naturally.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on July 02, 2016, 09:15:24 PM
@Osle: I can read their positions two ways;
-Three groups, each with 2 unknown warriors and 1 unknown marauder
-Four groups (since there are four groups of civilians), three with a couple of unknown warriors and one with a trio of unknown marauders.
Four groups.

Also, are they bunched within 10-feet of each other like the formation of the previous squad of u.w., with each group a notable distance from the other groups?
20 feet from each other but otherwise yes.

And I'll note that I'm not sure what the AC of a drone/doll is supposed to be. They use the initiator's saves but their AC isn't clear beyond size+dex modifiers and how the initiator's buffs affect them.
Just dex and size mod for Puppeteer theater since nothing else is mentioned, higher level stances grant some natural armor. Only offensive buffs apply.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 03, 2016, 01:23:02 AM
Got it! The first three drones are going to scout ahead in the side and front area. They'll maybe get their Doll's War attacks as well though it'll depend on what they see there. Provided its all within 390 feet of those closest to each area. If there is something there that looks particularly important she'd reroute a bigger share of the drones there instead. Their targets for each attack would be assign in the same order of priority.

Edit: Too busy to finish the post. I'll try to get it in tomorrow along with all the rolls sorted out.
And now suddenly I'm not sure how "using your stats" interacts with the drone's size. They fight with fine-sized weapon off a diminutive mecha whose size doesn't affect the weapon damage size. "Using your stats" seem to imply that the attacks would not benefit from the drones' size bonus to attacks, using your own instead. The weapon damage would be as per the size of the weapon still. That's how I've been doing it at least. Not sure if them being a mecha's maneuvers using her stats qualify their weapons as being mecha weapons for most purposes (damage is treated as force damage and so on). The weapons are technically tiny (instead of small) since the mecha is diminutive (while Mao is medium).

Oh, I've also just noticed your rolled crit confirms for me. I already rolled them and had noted what the result was in the action block. It was the last roll I had done in that post.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on July 07, 2016, 05:11:32 AM
Edit: Too busy to finish the post. I'll try to get it in tomorrow along with all the rolls sorted out.
And now suddenly I'm not sure how "using your stats" interacts with the drone's size. They fight with fine-sized weapon off a diminutive mecha whose size doesn't affect the weapon damage size. "Using your stats" seem to imply that the attacks would not benefit from the drones' size bonus to attacks, using your own instead. The weapon damage would be as per the size of the weapon still. That's how I've been doing it at least. Not sure if them being a mecha's maneuvers using her stats qualify their weapons as being mecha weapons for most purposes (damage is treated as force damage and so on). The weapons are technically tiny (instead of small) since the mecha is diminutive (while Mao is medium).
-Use your own size bonus to attacks, not the doll's.
-Weapon damage as the weapons wielded by the dolls.
-If Mao is channeling attacks from inside her mecha, they count as mecha.

Oh, I've also just noticed your rolled crit confirms for me. I already rolled them and had noted what the result was in the action block. It was the last roll I had done in that post.
Noted, thanks for pointing it out. So many rolls...
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 08, 2016, 04:59:08 PM
I'll let the dolls continue to deal with... whatever's going on in whatever direction that's happening. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 11, 2016, 04:32:23 AM
I don't know where I am or what I see in regards to taking my, assumed, new turn now? I was hoping to try to arrive at whatever location Mao's dolls were currently engaging on my last turn.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 11, 2016, 11:19:55 AM
Hard to guess. Mao appeared in the middle of the first area and was 100-ft away from the next one. Maybe something close to a 100-ft-cu room.
If you appeared this round into the next round you'd probably have eaten a readied attack action. But since you appeared and interacted with Amaterasu already, safe to say you're in the first area.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 12, 2016, 12:39:36 AM
From my understanding, arriving where Ammy is was where I was starting my turn before taking actions. So I figured I had a full turn worth of actions to move to the next area ahead of Ammy where Mao is engaging?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 12, 2016, 02:02:08 AM
Yes, though my meaning is that going in by yourself is pretty darn dangerous at this moment. Especially if on the hostile's turn you're there by yourself with them having little to nothing else to turn their attention at. Right now there is nothing but 4 drones in that room. And they go down if you sneeze at them.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 12, 2016, 04:48:32 AM
Excuse me while I attempt to approach with stealth-like reflexes..............
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 12, 2016, 12:35:40 PM
Excuse me while I attempt to approach with stealth-like reflexes..............
I'm in a Stance that turns me into a giant flaming ball of death but because it grants Concealment I can hide inside it so all you see it pretty much a flaming projectile zipping around shooting things which is pretty cool.

It also means I'm technically in stealth mode all the time.
...And my stealth mode is simply more fire. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 12, 2016, 12:42:03 PM
Somehow, I don't think any stealth check made inside a ball of flame is going to, well, help more than the base concealment. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 12, 2016, 07:01:43 PM
Yes it does, mechanically anytime you have Concealment you can make a Hide Check otherwise you normally need Cover (RC 32) and the Stance grants both, which is technically irelavent since the Natch system allows you to hide without needing Concealment anyway. Flavor wise, I'm a flaming dragon mech, on fire, behind a nearly occlusive wall of fire. All you can see to strike is fire, fire, and more fire.

The only real difference is I've been pin-pointed, or they know which square to attack for the 50% miss instead of randomly targeting every possible square like a game of battleship; except you only get the report back of a hit half the time.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 12, 2016, 07:23:31 PM
Wait, is this total concealment or partial concealment? Because if it's total there's no need for the hide check as you can't be targeted anyway.

I really hope the fireball isn't centred on you, otherwise the appropriate square is both A) the most likely place you're going to randomly target if you had to pick one, and B) logically the place you'd centre area effects on.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 12, 2016, 09:08:52 PM
It is normal concealment. And it is indeed centered on the initiator since it covers his space and the squares adjacent to him.
Hiding to make it look like they're fighting a sun is totally legit though your exact position is, yes, quite obvious.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 12, 2016, 11:20:35 PM
Fire makes the best camouflage, plus it's one of the only two things Thief can't steal.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 12, 2016, 11:36:38 PM
I reckon there's this one famous thief that stole some from the gods.  :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 13, 2016, 12:15:46 AM
I'm actually pretty sure that's a mistranslation brought on by the common thief of fire motif among the various pentathlons. I think it's more accurate to say Prometheus stole a divine power from Mt. Olympus to help man with their life struggle and then he taught them how to use it. Then much like Zeus had the divine power to create lightning bolts but needed to first forge them, man had obtained the divine ability to bring fire instead existence.

In other words, it's not that Prometheus literately stole the ungraspable but rather in a limited language that struggles to differentiate between the ideals and the material. The idea that the creation fire is a divine gift to men got shorthanded to something that can synonymously equal to the phase: "he stole a campfire" which leads to a couple head scratches later on on how exactly that worked outside of claiming it's magic.

Mindful, I've done like zero research into the topic, it's just how I decipher it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 13, 2016, 06:44:35 AM
It's a recurring motif not limited to Greek myth.

People really like stealing fire.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 13, 2016, 11:27:49 AM
It's a recurring motif not limited to Greek myth.
People really like stealing fire.
*ahem*
I'm actually pretty sure that's a mistranslation brought on by the common thief of fire motif among the various pentathlons
It's actually mostly found in the more nomadic / tribal religions. By the time Judaism came about over three thousand years ago it was getting pushed towards knowledge taught to humanity. Like I consider Greek to be influenced by Norse, through I'm sure Norse also has elements from the Greeks, and over on the Norse side Loki is the trickster god of fire with no proven source of influence. But it's not that he stole fire but rather he was fire and shady enough to steal everything you owned. Claiming he stole fire and Odin's birds are tearing him apart as punishment is the exact thing I'd expect things to get changed to by word of mouth and that may have very well led to Prometheus's story which also explains how he is a Titian opposed to another Olympian. Food for thought.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 13, 2016, 11:56:15 AM
I was looking at mythologies from different continents. It keeps showing up.

Zero research with the assumption of a mistranslation that would actually make it different from the norm isn't a good baseline argument.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 13, 2016, 01:19:44 PM
Common themes shared by cultures that have never been proven to contact one another historically is, at least in theory, easily explained by neural evolution.

Interesting fact: in spite of having been split across vast expanses of different continents, mankind's brain patterns have evolved more or less exactly the same - different cultures with vastly different needs developed much the same technologies as they improved, with different techniques overall and different styles owing to their basic environments and how their cultures shaped up. They did, however, share several traces in common, whether in those technologies themselves or their cultural beliefs. That's why you have big firebirds both in ancient China and ancient Greece, even though neither civilization has, to our knowledge, ever contacted the other until relatively recently. Both also represent rebirth. That's also why Chinese and British dragon myths are different - both are big-ass lizards, possibly owing to the fact that lizards are reptiles and therefore often poisonous, though both also have different conotations, because of how each sees nature as a culture.

But in either case such similarities could be conceivably explained by identical evolutive paths insofar as our brains are concerned - much like babies have distinct steps in their growth patterns, like that age where they try to put everything in their mouths.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 13, 2016, 01:35:10 PM
China actually had indirect contact with (and knowledge of) Rome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations), interestingly.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 13, 2016, 01:46:23 PM
China actually had indirect contact with (and knowledge of) Rome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations), interestingly.

Hmmm. Depending on the nature of such contacts it is possible that cross-culture pollination had occurred (given the time when Rome conquered Greece), but for that we'd need an idea of when the Phoenix myth in both first appeared.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 13, 2016, 10:18:44 PM
I was looking at mythologies from different continents. It keeps showing up.
Zero research with the assumption of a mistranslation that would actually make it different from the norm isn't a good baseline argument.
On the same token, your baseless counter argument is utterly meaningless since it doesn't cites resources either.

Also it doesn't even pose a rebuttal, more like show cases how you can't even google up a point before discussing it. The discussion is about Prometheus stealing fire and you're rebuttal even has it's own wikipedia entry, the Theft of Fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_of_fire). And of it's listed examples at the top the Algonqui, Ojibwa, Yukon, & Cherokee are all America based and the Polynesian entry is simply the islands near them. Matarisvan of India and the Azazel of Judaism are on the same continents as Greece and surprise they are both about teaching man fire which makes Prometheus, by region, the odd man out and flunking your rebuttal.

Also, in ancient Greece during the Olympics fires burned in Zeus & Hera's temples to honor them as well as an overall tributation to Hestia of the Hearth. It seems pretty strange to flaunt stolen goods in front of the Deity that condemned the thief to an eternity of suffering. Unless of course the interpretation that Prometheus stole a literal fire it something a more modern civilization tacked on in it's displaced understanding. Like I bet you think the Olympic Torch was a thing back then even through it's only like eighty years old.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 13, 2016, 11:30:08 PM
I just realised that nobody in this entire thing (Super Robots especially) has any sort of finishing attack ability. This seems a little off. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 14, 2016, 12:47:50 AM
Excuse me, I can tear a hole in reality now. That's a hell of a way to "finish" off some one.

Banish ya'll to the Shadow Realm.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 14, 2016, 01:49:33 AM
Quote
I just realised that nobody in this entire thing (Super Robots especially) has any sort of finishing attack ability. This seems a little off.
I think we can sort of do those using spirits. If it kills the enemy you can then say "yeah, that was my finishing attack".
Which makes sense since when you're using a finisher that doesn't finish the target, it ain't much of a finisher.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 16, 2016, 03:41:37 PM
We're working on mecha scale? xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 16, 2016, 05:21:45 PM
Oh look, there goes that Katherine again, diving headfirst into immediate danger without a second thought. Ooooooh boooooy  :rolleyes
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 16, 2016, 05:35:56 PM
I'll be joining in shortly. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on July 16, 2016, 07:31:30 PM
Common themes shared by cultures that have never been proven to contact one another historically is, at least in theory, easily explained by neural evolution.

Interesting fact: in spite of having been split across vast expanses of different continents, mankind's brain patterns have evolved more or less exactly the same - different cultures with vastly different needs developed much the same technologies as they improved, with different techniques overall and different styles owing to their basic environments and how their cultures shaped up. They did, however, share several traces in common, whether in those technologies themselves or their cultural beliefs. That's why you have big firebirds both in ancient China and ancient Greece, even though neither civilization has, to our knowledge, ever contacted the other until relatively recently. Both also represent rebirth. That's also why Chinese and British dragon myths are different - both are big-ass lizards, possibly owing to the fact that lizards are reptiles and therefore often poisonous, though both also have different conotations, because of how each sees nature as a culture.

But in either case such similarities could be conceivably explained by identical evolutive paths insofar as our brains are concerned - much like babies have distinct steps in their growth patterns, like that age where they try to put everything in their mouths.

A bit late to this discussion but I would like to point out that in America there were multiple highly developed civilizations with neither the wheel or iron working.

Babies putting stuff in mouth is hardwired instinct. Like breathing and sucking/swallowing it is essential for survival.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 16, 2016, 11:44:11 PM
A bit late to this discussion but I would like to point out that in America there were multiple highly developed civilizations with neither the wheel or iron working.
Technically that has to for with the the types of animals that could be domesticated. North America had llamas which have very poor work loads which means no beasts of burden for agriculture or transportation innovation. And one of the side effects of that is not needing a heavy material's durability that can withstand such an animal.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 16, 2016, 11:51:54 PM
And working out metalworking is a matter of luck.

Still wondering about the scale/whether summoning an absolutely huge robot is appropriate.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 17, 2016, 01:11:48 AM
@ketaro: Slick. That natural 20 amazes me.  :clap

@osle: Just for clarity, wouldn't the drones have seen that hiding marauder get of out hiding before it attacked? She has drones in opposite sides of the area. Especially considering Mao cannot be flatfooted.

Gonna wait on how Ketaro might have changed the order of things.
Anyone gonna take care of the black market merchants to get the goods the hostiles are after? Hugo maybe? Kinda our expert on the stuff. :)

Quote
Still wondering about the scale/whether summoning an absolutely huge robot is appropriate.
So far the entire place looks immense. In every direction.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 17, 2016, 03:01:13 AM
@ketaro: Slick. That natural 20 amazes me.  :clap

Especially if they had an Alert spirit or some nonsense up which would eat the first attack but not the crit (2nd)  :D
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 17, 2016, 09:42:12 AM
Quote
Still wondering about the scale/whether summoning an absolutely huge robot is appropriate.
So far the entire place looks immense. In every direction.

MU Gigantic. 128 times Medium. 768'/234m is always going to be a question of 'will it fit', as I'm pretty sure Deceptively Innocent Form/Monster Lord don't transfer over to mecha. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on July 17, 2016, 11:10:14 AM
Soro:Baha can move into the next room to unleash fire breath.

Although right now Katherine is positioned surrounded by the marauders, so dropping an atomic attack  there would imply friendly fire.

@osle: Just for clarity, wouldn't the drones have seen that hiding marauder get of out hiding before it attacked? She has drones in opposite sides of the area. Especially considering Mao cannot be flatfooted.
The marauder was taking care to hide out of all evident drone's lines of sight, Katherine spotted it because she herself was sneaking.

Quote
Still wondering about the scale/whether summoning an absolutely huge robot is appropriate.
So far the entire place looks immense. In every direction.

MU Gigantic. 128 times Medium. 768'/234m is always going to be a question of 'will it fit', as I'm pretty sure Deceptively Innocent Form/Monster Lord don't transfer over to mecha. :lmao

The areas you're in are roughly 300 feet high/wide, but the passages between them are more about only 30 feet high/wide.

And no non-mecha abilities that would change a mecha's size specifically don't work.

A bit late to this discussion but I would like to point out that in America there were multiple highly developed civilizations with neither the wheel or iron working.
Technically that has to for with the the types of animals that could be domesticated. North America had llamas which have very poor work loads which means no beasts of burden for agriculture or transportation innovation. And one of the side effects of that is not needing a heavy material's durability that can withstand such an animal.
The first war chariots in history were pulled by donkeys. And iron/bronze was first used for cutting tools long before anyone started to think about adding metal acessories to big pets.

Also the mayans and incas had pretty developed agriculture and roads. And they built giant stone pyramids, so carrying around big weights was a priority for them.

And working out metalworking is a matter of luck.
Perhaps, how the hell people figured out the proccess to start with is a fascinating field of study, but it still supports my point. Some civilizations developed smithing millennia ago, while others didn't until the smithing civilizations arrived and stabbed/diseased them all millennia later.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 17, 2016, 11:48:13 AM
Soro:Baha can move into the next room to unleash fire breath.
Sweet and updated.
I also realized Command & Conquer would let me reuse Ten Suns again which would probably be pretty handy. I think I'll use it offensively through.

The first war chariots in history were pulled by donkeys. And iron/bronze was first used for cutting tools long before anyone started to think about adding metal acessories to big pets.
Donkeys != llamas and even the North American Indianans around Mexico were familiar with bronze working. But the southerns couldn't produce enough agriculture so they turned to cannibalism & ritual sacrifice to push their population numbers down.

How civilization started is a cool area of study, but the actual field of study isn't based on mythology or assuming people are different but the land and things discovered in it was different. Like we all started in Africa and migrated outwards from there, the ones that made it over to Europe found all kinds of animals they could domesticate. Simply because they had an easier life they progressed faster and had the needs to progress since ownership and thus the protection of stuff that wasn't readily on your back became more and more of a big thing.

And because they lived with their animals they had what at the time was a huge disadvantage that when a bug mutated and jumped from live stock to the human population the various plagues kept wiping them out in the so called "white man's disease". Later on the population that survived became pretty much toxic to anyone who hadn't built up antigens to the various accumulated bugs which gave them a guilt free way to mass murder most of North America through obviously there are some people that think otherwise on that whole guiltless part.

Obviously that's a pretty short tl;dr read that's pretty much the gist of it. It all comes back to who had the animals to help them make alcohol.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 17, 2016, 02:10:44 PM
You know, looking on those arguments back and forth it's kinda eerie how Civilization turns out to be an accurate game that way.

You know, except for the possibility of the British building Himeji Castle or whatever.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 17, 2016, 03:51:14 PM
Quote
The marauder was taking care to hide out of all evident drone's lines of sight, Katherine spotted it because she herself was sneaking.
I'm not sure I get the logic. When you're moving out of hiding you need to roll the usual hide n' move silently checks. If you attack you're under the sniping hide penalties.
And even then you'd see the spiraling attack go out of nowhere to destroy you, probably seeing where it came from even if you cannot see the source itself since the attack isn't unseen. The sneaky attack that kills you without you even knowing what happened would require being flat-footed, no?

Just for future reference.

Also, to get a better idea of what happened, the drone did 5 attacks on all the mobs of marauders, minus the one hiding, or perhaps they had reformed back to normal in-between drone waves since they splitted off again. Or when they split they got destroyed since the hiding marauder respawned them? Now there is a new batch of marauders but it isn't clear if they got respawned back into non-mob form like maybe before or were already in mob form?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on July 17, 2016, 04:37:16 PM
Quote
The marauder was taking care to hide out of all evident drone's lines of sight, Katherine spotted it because she herself was sneaking.
I'm not sure I get the logic. When you're moving out of hiding you need to roll the usual hide n' move silently checks. If you attack you're under the sniping hide penalties.
And even then you'd see the spiraling attack go out of nowhere to destroy you, probably seeing where it came from even if you cannot see the source itself since the attack isn't unseen. The sneaky attack that kills you without you even knowing what happened would require being flat-footed, no?
The second hide check for sniping is specifically only rolled after the shot is resolved. Thus targets eliminated by the attack do not get a second spot opportunity.

Not being flat-footed means that you get to keep Dex bonus to AC and immunity to sneak attacks, super automatic reflexes that do not rely on sight and stuff. Still does not allow free spot rolls.

Just for future reference.

Also, to get a better idea of what happened, the drone did 5 attacks on all the mobs of marauders, minus the one hiding, or perhaps they had reformed back to normal in-between drone waves since they splitted off again. Or when they split they got destroyed since the hiding marauder respawned them? Now there is a new batch of marauders but it isn't clear if they got respawned back into non-mob form like maybe before or were already in mob form?

3 marauders go down with one hit each. Drones destroyed. When 2nd wave of drones arrive three identical marauders up. Again disappear in one hit each. Fourth marauder produces 3 marauders. You would need martial lore for more details.

Mob form is never mentioned in my posts, plus they're only 3-4, not enough to get the mob template.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 17, 2016, 04:45:07 PM
Not being flat-footed means that you get to keep Dex bonus to AC and immunity to sneak attacks, super automatic reflexes that do not rely on sight and stuff. Still does not allow free spot rolls.
Little ambiguous there and it sounds like you're going down the spot path.

Actually you can't use Immediate Actions against anyone that has Total-Concealment against you, the ruling is buried in the RC somewhere. So when you mean "super automatic reflexes" you should mean something like it has some kind of equivalent of WoL's Cunning which totally negates the Flat-Footed condition in some form or another. Ready & Contingencies can still resolve, though Ready is more of an intent thing since you can use it to resole smacking a Shadow hiding in a wall before it hits you.

Likewise the penalties Anomander spoke of are about remaining hidden while performing those actions. If you move afterwards and still remain in sight you can make another Hide Check and if you finish moving behind something you're still hidden simply because LoS is obstructed regardless of your penalty or desire to even make the check.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 17, 2016, 06:02:18 PM
@Oslecamo

Was my Alert Spirit and 20% miss chance already taken into account?


Nevermind, read rolling thread. Guess I gotta deal with this crap.

Also I need to take my real turn now x.x


I CAN'T FIGHT THESE SOMEBODY SAVE KATHERINE  :o

Legitimately cannot reduce the damage enough to save my Nanoarmor, thus rendering me out of the fight.....
Anybody got a "save my team mate" counter like I do? >.>


Oh my gawd ketaro you're such a blind dumb butt YOU HAVE DR DAMMIT

Aight, false alarm. Hit my panic button way fast there -_-'

I also solved Soro's friendly fire problem (not that he acknowledged it to be a problem) by backpeddling out of the area just as Baha comes in with fiery atomic death from above :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 17, 2016, 07:10:33 PM
Quote
Still does not allow free spot rolls.
Merely going out of hiding would, though. The only reason a spot check wasn't rolled to begin with was because he had total concealment conferred by the terrain, making him impossible to see. Moving to get line of effect for his attacks makes him spot-table before his movement is even completed. That applies before the attack, and the sniping.

Quote
Mob form is never mentioned in my posts, plus they're only 3-4, not enough to get the mob template.
My bad. The description made it seem like that was the case.
"Then the fallen unknown marauders deconstruct themselves into what appears millions of minuscle bots"
"But again the marauders simply deconstruct themselves into millions of minuscle bots again"

Millions make a pretty impressive mob/swarm. I felt like they were still in the fight in the form of a big group of mini-bots.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 17, 2016, 07:12:56 PM
To me, that description sounds like the Ancient Temple counter than turns you into a bunch of petals to dodge an attack. Or the Divine Flame one that turns you into light or w/e to also dodge attacks. They're probably just using counters.

Also, Os' retroactive post for my Counter does mention Mao is able to see the Maruader that was hiding because I stopped it from hiding or whatever so isn't it moot to argue now?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 17, 2016, 07:17:43 PM
Is there anything going on that would make "run in and hit people with a sword with a spring attack full attack" nonviable? I'm so confused by the rules discussion. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 17, 2016, 07:20:14 PM
Just get in and out either before or after Baha's breath weapon.

Other than that, I don't know if there are any other enemies within sight except the 4 Marauders that Katherine got caught in.

Oh, I might've made it difficult by pooting a Fog Cloud made of flowers on those same Marauders. It's also questionable whether they're alive after Katherine & Baha did their things.....
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 17, 2016, 08:04:05 PM
Stab whatever's left? Everything's a bluuuuuuuuuuur at those speeds.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 17, 2016, 08:25:16 PM
Quote
isn't it moot to argue now?
It's for future reference. Don't want to wonder how things are meant to go next time someone wants to use stealth tactics. If they can abuse it like that so can we.

Mao is unseen by them right now. Those that get killed by a drone sent the turn it appears would similarly not know what killed them. And that doesn't make much sense.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 17, 2016, 08:27:00 PM
Quote
isn't it moot to argue now?
It's for future reference. Don't want to wonder how things are meant to go next time someone wants to use stealth tactics. If they can abuse it like that so can we.

The thought of Amaterasu hiding. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on July 18, 2016, 07:12:01 AM
Quote
Still does not allow free spot rolls.
Merely going out of hiding would, though. The only reason a spot check wasn't rolled to begin with was because he had total concealment conferred by the terrain, making him impossible to see. Moving to get line of effect for his attacks makes him spot-table before his movement is even completed. That applies before the attack, and the sniping.
It rolled well enough for Mao to auto-fail spot at first. Then rolled badly enough for Katherine (and Mao) to auto-succeed when taking in account the -20 sniping penalty.

Quote
Mob form is never mentioned in my posts, plus they're only 3-4, not enough to get the mob template.
My bad. The description made it seem like that was the case.
"Then the fallen unknown marauders deconstruct themselves into what appears millions of minuscle bots"
"But again the marauders simply deconstruct themselves into millions of minuscle bots again"

Millions make a pretty impressive mob/swarm. I felt like they were still in the fight in the form of a big group of mini-bots.
It was supposed to be a more sci-fi version of "turn to fine dust". And mob template has an upper member limit some 4 orders of magnitude lower.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 18, 2016, 06:28:54 PM
I think I might be missing out on damage, since I'm apparently using a holy weapon. Might not be, though.



Got bored, once again calculated speed. The entirety of that post (due to zeal and round times) takes place at either 60 or 300mph. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 23, 2016, 01:21:36 PM
Oh, I'm waiting for Kuro to post. I want to make sure everything's covered.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 23, 2016, 03:58:38 PM
And I'm waiting for Ols to post because that'll be a good sign we're back to moving forward and it's the start of another round.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 23, 2016, 11:24:03 PM
I think Osle might be waiting on me.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on July 24, 2016, 06:45:05 AM
On Kuro and Anomander yes. And Anomander says he's waiting for Kuro.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 24, 2016, 10:25:24 AM
So it's all on you Kuro, kick their asses and win the entire Encounter for us.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 24, 2016, 06:56:10 PM
There are other places to clear, mind. We don't know what's up those places yet. Hopefully someone manages to capture one without it destroying itself, since it's part of the objectives and those grant XP. Fighting encounters don't grant XP but in this case clearing the place is one. :)
Getting the stuff ARCAS (if that's really their name) came to find is probably an objective as well.

If Kuro tells me whether he'll have Hugo take care of the black market trader for the goods or not, I'll get my post in without waiting further since I only want to make sure something is done to address that issue.
If he doesn't Mao'll handle it with Maia and it won't exactly be to the black market trader's advantage.

Quote
"That's Grak Xiow, worked at a wasteland junkyard in Ragol. Suspected to be connected to 37 illegal transactions of Class-X forbidden items, but we could never gather enough evidence to imprison him."
I've been meaning to ask, would that imply that he was among the first wave of pioneers on Ragol... the one that got wiped out? If so he's actually a survivor of the incident.
Or maybe he was among the first wave and was reported to have left it before the incident.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 24, 2016, 07:56:01 PM
Right. I'm actually a bit stumped on what exactly to do here, because I COULD try to blanket the area in enough BFC that they couldn't so much as scratch their balls, but so far I'm unsure how effective a tactic that would prove.

I would probably be riding in on Murakumo, though, so there's that...
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 24, 2016, 10:23:41 PM
Area A is where Mao started. Area A was cleared. Area A is where Katherine and Ammy showed up after Mao cleared it. Area A is where the NPC Anomander is talking about it located.

Area B is the current known fight. Area B has Mao's Dolls (But I believe not Mao as she is in Area A still?). Katherine & Ammy also just moved in to Area B and engaged the foes there. While the results of our actions haven't been verified by Os posting yet (because it is still our turn), it is incredibly likely that Area B is clear of hostiles after Katherine's & Ammy's assaults and Baha's breath weapon which blanketed most of Area B and no doubt cleaned up what was left.

Area A and B are the only areas we've got sight on and are with little doubt, clear. Massive BFC would only help if you moved ahead of us into the next area we detect combat from but do not have visuals on yet. It would also mean you get to solo the next Area for 1 turn.

Clarified for you yet, Kuro?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 24, 2016, 10:38:06 PM
Bonus: because of how turns are resolved, the BFC can apply before the charge into B.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 24, 2016, 10:39:18 PM
Yes but BFC doesn't do anything for dead enemies.....

As much of an assumption at their likely deaths is, I feel safe in making future decisions based on them already being dead right now  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 25, 2016, 01:09:46 AM
Quote
Area B is the current known fight. Area B has Mao's Dolls (But I believe not Mao as she is in Area A still?). Katherine & Ammy also just moved in to Area B and engaged the foes there. While the results of our actions haven't been verified by Os posting yet (because it is still our turn), it is incredibly likely that Area B is clear of hostiles after Katherine's & Ammy's assaults and Baha's breath weapon which blanketed most of Area B and no doubt cleaned up what was left.

Mao herself is indeed still in Area A.
As for Area B potentially being cleared this round... there was 3 pairs of warriors, a group of three marauders and one hidden marauder spawner.
Mao took out one pair of warriors, leaving 2. Kat landed a few hits with her counter on the hidden marauder.
Baham breaths a cone big enough in there to, perhaps, cover every enemy though she'd hit the drone and Kat as well. Perhaps also the drone scouts and the civilians at the end. Might possibly have forgotten to list his DC and turn cooldown before the next breath.
Kat then fullattacks the hiding marauder.
Ama runs around full attacking up to two groups of hostiles, perhaps finishing the hidden marauder and then fighting one of the two remaining pairs of warriors or going straight to one group of warriors, probably taking them out (her attacks should also ignore their miss chances thanks to Way of the Sword).

So there is probably at least one pair of warriors left.
Mao could use her turn to grapple what remains so they could perhaps be captured. Hoping they have to actually be be taken out to self destruct. Doubt it though.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 25, 2016, 02:05:48 AM
I thought I read your Dolls killing all of the groups, then the hidden guy made a new group.

Gosh, we all have very different ideas of what is even happening this is a messed up fight.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 25, 2016, 02:15:47 AM
The drones took out a group of three marauders that got respawned by the one hidden. They got taken out again and got respawned again.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 25, 2016, 11:31:04 AM
If nobody objects, I think I'll pick up the smugglers instead.

They are, after all, why we were looking at the Black Market in the first place.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on July 30, 2016, 07:13:24 PM
So, how will Hugo pick up the smugglers? Need that to update the turn.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 30, 2016, 09:44:10 PM
Well, here's the thing. I can only grapple one person at a time with telekinesis, and that's using a standard action.

I don't know if I can grapple with funnels. If I can, hey, great, Murakumo gets to handle the heavy lifting!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2016, 09:46:10 PM
I have to wonder if mecha shouldn't have some sort of bonus to just grabbing people. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 31, 2016, 06:48:22 PM
They do on grapple checks, it's called a size bonus. But not for the initial touch attack.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on July 31, 2016, 07:00:00 PM
Funnels are designed for shooting/cutting. They could be used for disarm/sunder, but I don't see how they could be used for grabbing.

Did Hugo forget to prepare any tentacle spells today?

Also reminds me that I was thinking of adding energy consumption to channeling spells through mechas.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 31, 2016, 07:37:04 PM
I could see funnels collectively forming an energy net to grapple or capture creatures.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 31, 2016, 08:11:25 PM
I could see funnels collectively forming an energy net to grapple or capture creatures.
Did you picture Guardians of the Galaxy after reading Ols's post like I did?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on July 31, 2016, 09:11:18 PM
I could see funnels collectively forming an energy net to grapple or capture creatures.

Now that you mention it gundam kinda did that (https://redirector.googlevideo.com/videoplayback?requiressl=yes&id=eb317722d6f2bb88&itag=22&source=webdrive&ttl=transient&app=texmex&ip=192.99.148.11&ipbits=8&expire=1470020031&sparams=requiressl,id,itag,source,ttl,ip,ipbits,expire&signature=2E8E133FA5EC86A6F31263DE145952296A5F8A59.3EC9FB1AFA6C5358D8576280100B7D435591798E&key=ck2&mm=30&mn=sn-ab5l6nzr&ms=nxu&mt=1470005384&mv=u&nh=IgpwcjAzLmxnYTA3KgkxMjcuMC4wLjE&pl=22&sc=yes), and since Hugo has all the funnel feats then I'll say ok to that.

I've upgraded the feat section to allow that.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 31, 2016, 09:54:23 PM
I could see funnels collectively forming an energy net to grapple or capture creatures.
Did you picture Guardians of the Galaxy after reading Ols's post like I did?

Yes.
Yes I did.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on August 04, 2016, 06:57:41 AM
Bump again.

Just in case Kuro missed it, Hugo can use the funnels to attempt to grapple the smugglers.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on August 05, 2016, 09:46:18 PM
OK, I have NO idea what my grapple mods are, so I'm going to roll the dice on the rolling thread and hope for the best.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on August 05, 2016, 10:09:07 PM
OK, I have NO idea what my grapple mods are, so I'm going to roll the dice on the rolling thread and hope for the best.
*looks*
Quote
Stop touching me Elmo 1 Rolled 1d20 : 5, total 5
Is this what sexual harassment feels like? 1 Rolled 1d20 : 4, total 4
Stop touching me Elmo 2 Rolled 1d20 : 20, total 20
Is this what sexual harassment feels like? 2 Rolled 1d20 : 1, total 1
Umm... Thanks to relieving the dice God's fury for me?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 05, 2016, 10:10:45 PM
Well, if your funnels get to use your mecha's size (colossal at least), I guess you'll manage a +16. This really is up in the air xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on August 05, 2016, 11:29:19 PM
As a rule, the mecha's  grapple size modifiers in mecha scale are the same when applied on normal scale.
Quote
"A mecha ignores size penalty to AC and attacks against non-mecha oponents. Such enemies don't gain size bonus to attacks and AC against mecha targets."

There is no mention of whether grappling is supposed to receive a similar treatment, which could be logical.
Though technically, being so big, the penalty to AC would make sense the same way that one may raise an eyebrow if some dude suplex'd a huge mecha.
It's been done with trains before.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it seems to be in contradiction with the concept:
Quote
Giant robots inevitably have weak joints and vital systems to be targeted, and their targeting systems have trouble landing a clean blow on much smaller opponents.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on August 06, 2016, 12:04:54 PM
Should update this later today, just to clarify some details.

As a rule, the mecha's  grapple size modifiers in mecha scale are the same when applied on normal scale.
Quote
"A mecha ignores size penalty to AC and attacks against non-mecha oponents. Such enemies don't gain size bonus to attacks and AC against mecha targets."

There is no mention of whether grappling is supposed to receive a similar treatment, which could be logical.
Though technically, being so big, the penalty to AC would make sense the same way that one may raise an eyebrow if some dude suplex'd a huge mecha.
It's been done with trains before.
A medium mecha still counts as a colossal creature when in "normal" scale and would gain the +16 bonus against a medium non-mecha.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it seems to be in contradiction with the concept:
Quote
Giant robots inevitably have weak joints and vital systems to be targeted, and their targeting systems have trouble landing a clean blow on much smaller opponents.
That's to justify damage discrepancies. A medium mecha's rifle is probably shooting bullets the size of people that should splatter regular humanoids. So when you roll a non-critical hit, it's more that your mecha-size bullet grazed your target, still inflicting significant damage but without reducing them to fine mist. On the other hand a lucky arrow/crossbow bolt hit armor joints and damage the squisher circuits inside.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on August 10, 2016, 07:35:21 AM
I apologize for my recent silence, but my computer has been having problems. Frequently crashing, seems like the hard drive is failing, so for the near future I won't be able to keep my online stuff up to date.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on August 17, 2016, 05:32:32 PM
So while Ols's HD is dead and until he can afford to replace it I'm a little mixed.

What I mean is this game has lasted the longest out of the pbps I've tried so on the one hand I'm hopeful it'll keep going. But on the other I'm a hair bit concerned people will lose interest and stop since we have no idea how long Ols may take. So, any ideas to prolong everyone's interest?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on August 17, 2016, 07:46:22 PM
I never lose interest. Just waiting till the end of time for our Ozzy
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on August 17, 2016, 10:59:08 PM
I never lose interest. Just waiting till the end of time for our Ozzy
This one?
(http://images.mmosite.com/my/upload/ac/7e/mavlock/10/0804/2010080422430_635.jpg)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on August 18, 2016, 10:21:31 AM
We can always talk shop about how creepy Hugo is.  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on August 18, 2016, 09:05:45 PM
Dude, I'm running around with a male identifying dragon pretending to be a little girl or female teenager with a support staff that includes a nymph & succubus that were literally ordered to convinced, tempt, and coerce a now mentally retarded female opponent taken hostage that we're the good guys against an androgynous robot overseers bent on collecting magical giant black phallic objects from a planet with giant animals under a DM who thought visiting a hot spring / onsen should have a year's worth of detail put into it and I swear pulls most of his images for his homebrew from sakaku chan's image board.

I'm pretty sure we're just barely hitting Japanese levels here, couple more tentacles and nose bleeds and we might just make it. Hugo isn't creepy, just trying to fit in.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on August 18, 2016, 11:03:10 PM
under a DM who thought visiting a hot spring / onsen should have a year's worth of detail put into it and I swear pulls most of his images for his homebrew from sakaku chan's image board.

I'm pretty sure we're just barely hitting Japanese levels here, couple more tentacles and nose bleeds and we might just make it. Hugo isn't creepy, just trying to fit in.

You're welcome for the onsen episode ;)

I'll get right on the rest of your requests  :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on August 18, 2016, 11:28:57 PM
I like that you TOTALLY skipped over the part where he Suicide Squad's two girls into serving as his spies after so much as the idea of sexual harassment was abandoned mostly because a legendary nuclear monstrosity named after a goddess of the sun figured he'd use tentacles instead.

Oh, and the onsen episode literally ended with him pulling a business contract out of a speedo.

Metaphorically.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 22, 2016, 08:10:15 PM
Hey, insinuations are complicated, especially when you're a creepy Hazama-dressed guy using magic.

Keep it simple and just use force! :D
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on August 23, 2016, 10:03:50 AM
That's easy for you to say, miss "I can bench-press a starship".  :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 23, 2016, 10:21:29 AM
Then hire force. :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on August 23, 2016, 12:12:19 PM
That's easy for you to say, miss "I can bench-press a starship".  :p
RD's character has 37 str, so medium right? Max heavy load is only 4,160lbs which is basically this.
(click to show/hide)
So maybe not a starship, but if Bay keeps his crap up she can pile drive some transformers into the ground.

Edit - Here I found some rare footage of Hugo's father showing everyone how it's done.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/h1k7oWeZqIDlK/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 24, 2016, 01:54:16 PM
That's easy for you to say, miss "I can bench-press a starship".  :p
RD's character has 37 str, so medium right? Max heavy load is only 4,160lbs which is basically this.
(click to show/hide)
So maybe not a starship, but if Bay keeps his crap up she can pile drive some transformers into the ground.

Edit - Here I found some rare footage of Hugo's father showing everyone how it's done.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/h1k7oWeZqIDlK/giphy.gif)

Colossal carrying capacity. So actually 33,280lbs.

Which means she can drag a tank around by brute force alone.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on August 24, 2016, 03:55:58 PM
If you pull the parking break on it you can double, up to 160tons, of dragging weight for using wheels. :D
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 24, 2016, 04:08:50 PM
Hurrah, I can singlehandedly be a delivery driver with no engine.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on August 24, 2016, 07:26:45 PM
At 160tons, I think you could try carrying the restaurant around to deliver. Pizza within one minute from the oven or it's free!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 24, 2016, 10:57:20 PM
At 160tons, I think you could try carrying the restaurant around to deliver. Pizza within one minute from the oven or it's free!

160 really isn't much. The HMS Victory is over 2,000 tons (or over 3,000; nautical measurements are odd).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on August 25, 2016, 12:05:53 AM
160 tons really isn't when we're talking about structures but it should be enough to drag around a kitchen and it should be enough to break down real world physics and most certainly biology. Also Google was kind enough to say it is 3,556 tons.

And speaking of, Bahamut's carry weight on my sheet used x32 for bipedal when it's supposed to be x24. :(
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 25, 2016, 12:10:00 AM
160 tons really isn't when we're talking about structures but it should be enough to drag around a kitchen and it should be enough to break down real world physics and most certainly biology. Also Google was kind enough to say it is 3,556 tons.

And speaking of, Bahamut's carry weight on my sheet used x32 for bipedal when it's supposed to be x24. :(

Isn't it x16 for colossal and x5 on top of that for drag weight?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on August 25, 2016, 12:46:31 AM
Well I meant quadruped instead of bipedal (Draco pg136). And I only listed max load, not drag, but I did +100% Colossal mod (or x32) instead of the correct +50% (or x24).
Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm
Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than characters can. Instead of the multipliers given above, multiply the value corresponding to the creature’s Strength score from Table: Carrying Capacity by the appropriate modifier, as follows: Fine ×¼, Diminutive ×½, Tiny ×¾, Small ×1, Medium ×1½, Large ×3, Huge ×6, Gargantuan ×12, Colossal ×24.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 25, 2016, 08:46:12 AM
It would take 12 standard halflings to equal the carrying capacity of one heavy horse.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on August 25, 2016, 10:17:00 AM
I should remember that when it comes to bargaining for their lives, a horse is worth a dozen of them.  :D
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 25, 2016, 10:28:40 AM
Now, it only takes seven standard humans to equal a large horse, so we have a ratio of human-Halfling. Of course, half-orcs are even better, since you just need six. Meanwhile, a horse is worth only four full orcs.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 09, 2016, 05:05:13 PM
Speaking of buying people, assuming we apply the highest modifier, x4, for being highly skilled & PC status. Your black market value is roughly 67,600gp.

That's about 135 pounds of platinum, or 1,352 pounds of gold, or 676,000 pounds of iron.
You can also be said to be worth 4,560 oxen, or 22,533 pigs, or 3,380,000 chickens.
More universally, that's about 13,520 pounds of salt or 2,704 HD of Zombies.
And more uncommonly you're worth 1,690,000 halfing brains, or 1,690 phoenix feathers, or 338 drops of dragon's tears.
And even through your life experiences are worth about 390,000gp your soul is only worth 50gp.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 10, 2016, 10:51:22 AM
Of course, if you consider that she's a walking energy generator, manual labour isn't the most useful application. :lmao

Also, I'm confused how much damage I'm taking: 272-AC and DR stuff, or 272-1/2 of AC and DR stuff. O_o

At least I'm still up either way. Possibly in negative HP, but up. Also, can they grapple a colossal target?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 10, 2016, 11:37:50 AM
Well Mech's only have Natural/Dodge bonuses to AC and given the 1/2 rate on probably like 15 AC yeah you're pretty much screwed if you don't have an alternative means to reduce or dodge the damage. Also I think Hugo just got a special energy-net grapple ability using his funnels (aka a dozen tiny robots) so maybe the nanomachine mechs are just fancy looking funnels.

I also feel compelled to break out the big guns here. Given that Bahamut is Colossal can I just use Baha's natural weapons instead of the mech's?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 10, 2016, 11:53:49 AM
Amaterasu has very bravely been on foot, as I recall, but capable of operating on mecha scale for... a few more rounds? (I need to check exactly how long that's been going) Because I have been putting off going through and redoing the mecha stuff. :lmao

Also because everything seemed to start at the smaller scale. I'm not sure any more.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 10, 2016, 01:02:58 PM
We actually engaged the first battle all in mecha.

Also, here's a reminder that all allies within 30-ft of Mao gain a +8 bonus to AC and Reflex saves
All allies within 30 mu (pretty much the whole room) also gain a +6 command bonus to attack rolls and AC.

That should help a bit mitigate the damage and perhaps better avoid being grappled, depending on Osle's ruling on attack bonuses applying to grapple checks.
(considering the whole Weapon Focus giving a +1 bonus to attack rolls with grapples and the Sage stating that being prone applies its penalty to attack rolls to grapple checks)

If someone got dropped or is critically low I'd like to know. I could try and do some healing.

@Osle: Glitch/l33t-speak sounds fun. I should make a character someday that communicates almost exclusively that way.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 10, 2016, 02:12:51 PM
I have... not because I didn't think that was the case.  Good thing for Way of the Fight, there, though that makes working out my actual numbers for this particularly confusing. <_>

I might be on something like -10.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 10, 2016, 02:52:15 PM
though that makes working out my actual numbers for this particularly confusing.
No mech right?

272 damage, -8 for 16 natural AC, -3 for 6 armor AC, and you don't seem to have any damage reduction or a shield bonus to AC.
You have 242hp and a quick check in the IC thread implies you're at max HP.
242hp - 261dmg = -19hp.
Thankfully through you die at -55 HP.
Your Fast Healing will kick in and heal you for 6 taking you to -13.

I have no idea how much spirit you have left over but I prefer to use it to negate death instead of extra damage. Guard for example I believe reduces damage taken to 1/4, or only 68 damage, which is far easier to handle.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 10, 2016, 03:17:45 PM
Nah, working out the exact grapple if we're working on MU scale. I think my modifier would be ~+32 with everything considered and without the size effects. Defensively, not much going on, except for Fall of Great Stars. That doesn't seem likely to help in the current scenario except by skipping the whole round.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 10, 2016, 03:37:29 PM
Nah, working out the exact grapple if we're working on MU scale.
I have no idea if we're using it so I skipped it (ok well apparently I used it instead of BAB, w/e it's only a 3 point difference).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 10, 2016, 04:45:17 PM
Nah, working out the exact grapple if we're working on MU scale.
I have no idea if we're using it so I skipped it (ok well apparently I used it instead of BAB, w/e it's only a 3 point difference).

Scale is the difference between succeeding on anything but a nat 1 and having less than a 50% chance to avoid a grapple. It matters for me. -_-'
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 10, 2016, 04:59:43 PM
Well, if it helps mobs are a type of Swarm and Swarms take +50% area damage so you can try to nuke them for some freedom.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 10, 2016, 05:08:51 PM
Don't grapples stop you moving too much to use maneuvers, or is that only pins? Nuking them when it turned out to be a mob was the plan (after assessing how many players might get caught).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 10, 2016, 05:58:03 PM
Kind of both, per Sage pin prevents Maneuvers/Stances. Normal Grapples only prevent the things that'll normally be blocked. Like you could still use a Strike that issues a melee attack but you couldn't for example use Sudden Leap because you can't simply walk away.

Since Mega Flare is just a go boom from the Control Rod, it should be perfectly fine to use. Rocket Dive, well of course not.  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 10, 2016, 06:02:55 PM
So was my retreat into cover after my attack ignored?

At what point was my Alert triggered, if at all? To know whether it is still up to counter the grapple. Or if it gets used to counter the mobup damage depending on which came first. Since Alert apparently works even on attacks that don't require attack rolls.

Hmm, depending on how Tower Watching Blade interacts with mobs tho, Katherine might be able to stop the entire single attack hitting everyone.....
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 10, 2016, 09:08:02 PM
Ok, let's see if I don't miss any important question.

Also, I'm confused how much damage I'm taking: 272-AC and DR stuff, or 272-1/2 of AC and DR stuff. O_o

272-1/2 of (Nat armor+Armor+Shield) -1/2 DR. Other AC bonus don't apply.

At least I'm still up either way. Possibly in negative HP, but up. Also, can they grapple a colossal target?
The marauder mob right now counts as mecha gargantuan, so yes.

Well Mech's only have Natural/Dodge bonuses to AC and given the 1/2 rate on probably like 15 AC yeah you're pretty much screwed if you don't have an alternative means to reduce or dodge the damage. Also I think Hugo just got a special energy-net grapple ability using his funnels (aka a dozen tiny robots) so maybe the nanomachine mechs are just fancy looking funnels.

I also feel compelled to break out the big guns here. Given that Bahamut is Colossal can I just use Baha's natural weapons instead of the mech's?

Yes, you can use natural weapons from inside a mecha. They're supposed to work as really big power armor for big creatures after all.

We actually engaged the first battle all in mecha.

Also, here's a reminder that all allies within 30-ft of Mao gain a +8 bonus to AC and Reflex saves
That's coming from Ancient Temple/Border of Life's feat, right? I've changed it to another effect a bunch of months ago although I guess I forgot to point it out. You can keep it for this battle but I'll have to ask you to update your character sheet when this battle is over (feel free to swap it for another feat).

Mind you, only Armor/Shield/Natural Armor AC bonus count to protect against mob damage.

All allies within 30 mu (pretty much the whole room) also gain a +6 command bonus to attack rolls and AC.

That should help a bit mitigate the damage and perhaps better avoid being grappled, depending on Osle's ruling on attack bonuses applying to grapple checks.
(considering the whole Weapon Focus giving a +1 bonus to attack rolls with grapples and the Sage stating that being prone applies its penalty to attack rolls to grapple checks)
Hhmm, you appear to be right.

Which means the mob's bonus DCs should be higher. Updated the IC with the updated grapple DCs from the mob.

Nah, working out the exact grapple if we're working on MU scale. I think my modifier would be ~+32 with everything considered and without the size effects. Defensively, not much going on, except for Fall of Great Stars. That doesn't seem likely to help in the current scenario except by skipping the whole round.

Mecha scale.

So was my retreat into cover after my attack ignored?
Katherine only hit one sword slash, not enough to trigger the tactical feat.

At what point was my Alert triggered, if at all? To know whether it is still up to counter the grapple. Or if it gets used to counter the mobup damage depending on which came first. Since Alert apparently works even on attacks that don't require attack rolls.
If you had Alert up, it would auto-block the grapple since that was used first.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 10, 2016, 09:39:01 PM
My chances of retreating to giant robot are slim. Looks like it's gonna be an all-or-nothing starsplosion. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 10, 2016, 09:46:06 PM
Yes but I still used a Move Action regardless, the Tactical Feat simply would have added the Fog Cloud to it (whether that'd have impeded or not not mattering to me atm)

It's not like I was adjacent to the target I attacked or anything, it was simply a "well IF this meets all the conditions, I might as well activate it for free. If I miss, oh well still gonna do it." :/
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 10, 2016, 10:00:05 PM
All allies within 30 mu (pretty much the whole room) also gain a +6 command bonus to attack rolls and AC.

That should help a bit mitigate the damage and perhaps better avoid being grappled, depending on Osle's ruling on attack bonuses applying to grapple checks.
(considering the whole Weapon Focus giving a +1 bonus to attack rolls with grapples and the Sage stating that being prone applies its penalty to attack rolls to grapple checks)
Hhmm, you appear to be right.
Not really.

Basically what you have is "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll, but it’s modified by your grapple modifier."RC being liberally takes as it is an attack roll even through the second half of that sentence completely alters what you use to modify it. Likewise "Other Modifiers: Feats, such as Improved Grapple, and other abilities can provide grapple check modifiers."RC being liberally taken as circulatory logic, or if grapple check == attack then weapon focus == other ability rather title namesake of modifiers that alter grapple checks.

To get a little more wordy here.
(click to show/hide)
Anyway, he got his +6 and they got their +15 out of it.  So way to go Anomander on effectively increasing the DC by +9.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 10, 2016, 10:18:36 PM
On mecha scale, my grapple check is (despite being rather small) a mighty... +26. Because I wasn't aware this was a mecha thing somehow. :lmao

Since 13 STR, 13 BAB. Nice and simple, attack rolls don't seem to apply and I've never gotten bothered about the detailed rules before because I think this is the first time I've been actually grappled in 3.5 where the size or other specific modifiers aren't just crushing it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 10, 2016, 10:30:38 PM
Yes but I still used a Move Action regardless, the Tactical Feat simply would have added the Fog Cloud to it (whether that'd have impeded or not not mattering to me atm)

It's not like I was adjacent to the target I attacked or anything, it was simply a "well IF this meets all the conditions, I might as well activate it for free. If I miss, oh well still gonna do it." :/

Well in that case if you only move 100 feet away the mob still easily catches up with you. And yes they managed to notice you, I rolled the spot check bundled in advance.

All allies within 30 mu (pretty much the whole room) also gain a +6 command bonus to attack rolls and AC.

That should help a bit mitigate the damage and perhaps better avoid being grappled, depending on Osle's ruling on attack bonuses applying to grapple checks.
(considering the whole Weapon Focus giving a +1 bonus to attack rolls with grapples and the Sage stating that being prone applies its penalty to attack rolls to grapple checks)
Hhmm, you appear to be right.
Not really.

Basically what you have is "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll, but it’s modified by your grapple modifier."RC being liberally takes as it is an attack roll even through the second half of that sentence completely alters what you use to modify it. Likewise "Other Modifiers: Feats, such as Improved Grapple, and other abilities can provide grapple check modifiers."RC being liberally taken as circulatory logic, or if grapple check == attack then weapon focus == other ability rather title namesake of modifiers that alter grapple checks.

To get a little more wordy here.
(click to show/hide)
And I'd also like to point out his error just undoubtedly screwed a bunch of you guys over. And us I say you guys because I'll just apply my bonuses to attack and Baha still makes his grapple check anyway (20 roll, +13 bab, +22 str, +4 luck, +3 supporting, +6 mao, etc. already hit 68 vs dc 59). He got his +6 and they got their +15 out of it. Which also makes a great case for me not trying to push things simply so "I win" in game thanks to that amazingly roll. So way to go Anomander on increasing the DC by +9.

Good argument, then for sanity's sake let's say that only things that explicitly apply to grapple actually apply to grapple instead of everything that boosts melee attacks. Re-updated IC DCs.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 10, 2016, 10:34:50 PM
I mean, the salient point from this is the nat 1/nat 20 thing applying.

That roll: so near, yet so far.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 10, 2016, 10:41:30 PM
Good argument, then for sanity's sake let's say that only things that explicitly apply to grapple actually apply to grapple instead of everything that boosts melee attacks. Re-updated IC DCs.
I'm sure more than one person is grateful for that.

Through I'm still not sure if I'm supposed to apply my Size Mod, Colossal (+16) or Mech's Medium (umm +0 for "medium"?).

I mean, the salient point from this is the nat 1/nat 20 thing applying.
I'm pretty sure a Natural 20 does not grant auto success on Grapple Checks but I'd have to double check. Ability/Skill Checks are not affected, Attack/Saves are, Grapple probably isn't. I just happen to have both a great roll and a high enough modifier that it doesn't matter too much.

All through, a minor tangent to bring up. Ols typically awards a +5 bonus to your Save against an immunity-piercing effect if you have the actual immunity. Maybe if you have FoM you could ask for that if it'll help. Likewise if your Mech is sentient it could attempt an aid you for +2 maybe? In either case, nuke it before it pins you. Just don't directly aim at me because it still counts as Bludgeoning damage :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 10, 2016, 11:05:02 PM
Quote
And I'd also like to point out his error just undoubtedly screwed a bunch of you guys over.
My error? I never said that attacks bonuses are supposed to apply to grapple checks. I only asked if Osle was among those who did, because if he applied attack bonuses to the enemy I certainly want us all to benefit from it as well. If he did, it wouldn't make it worse for us.
Thanks for your analysis of the position, still.

Quote
Through I'm still not sure if I'm supposed to apply my Size Mod, Colossal (+16) or Mech's Medium (umm +0 for "medium"?).
The +0 for being medium, since you are in your mecha fighting a mecha opponent.

I'm actually surprised a mob can grapple more than one target at once. The entry for Mob grapple doesn't specify it affects more than one target per use. A grapple typically affects a single creature. Other abilities may allow it to do so, though. Not sure if it did an attack roll to make the grapple or if it went straight to the grapple check (for the purpose of what can be used to defend against it).


Oh, I'm considering doing like ketaro and using Radiant Rolling Counter to stop the mob up damage. I can tank it though if it spares you lot the damage I'm all for it.

Quote
That's coming from Ancient Temple/Border of Life's feat, right?
Monster class abilities and leader feats, actually.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 10, 2016, 11:14:11 PM
I mean, the salient point from this is the nat 1/nat 20 thing applying.
I'm pretty sure a Natural 20 does not grant auto success on Grapple Checks but I'd have to double check. Ability/Skill Checks are not affected, Attack/Saves are, Grapple probably isn't. I just happen to have both a great roll and a high enough modifier that it doesn't matter too much.

All through, a minor tangent to bring up. Ols typically awards a +5 bonus to your Save against an immunity-piercing effect if you have the actual immunity. Maybe if you have FoM you could ask for that if it'll help. Likewise if your Mech is sentient it could attempt an aid you for +2 maybe? In either case, nuke it before it pins you. Just don't directly aim at me because it still counts as Bludgeoning damage :p

I don't have FoM precisely because FoM protects mostly against things that I am very good against, providing I am not inconveniently small. So the grapple is there. xD

As for the +1/+20 thing: if grapples work like attack rolls (which seems to be the case, though I might be misreading) but don't have the bonuses of attack rolls, then they share in the attack roll/save autosuccess and failure shenanigans.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 11, 2016, 12:29:48 AM
People who want to attempt counters can attempt so, but mob anatomy means Radiant Rolling Counter and Tower Watching Blade won't work unless you manage to deal at least 25% of the mob's HP in damage to drop their full immunity to single-target effects.

Quote
Through I'm still not sure if I'm supposed to apply my Size Mod, Colossal (+16) or Mech's Medium (umm +0 for "medium"?).
The +0 for being medium, since you are in your mecha fighting a mecha opponent.
Correct.

I'm actually surprised a mob can grapple more than one target at once. The entry for Mob grapple doesn't specify it affects more than one target per use. A grapple typically affects a single creature. Other abilities may allow it to do so, though. Not sure if it did an attack roll to make the grapple or if it went straight to the grapple check (for the purpose of what can be used to defend against it).

"Mob grapple: a mob can grapple as a standard action, altough it cannot be grappled back by creatures smaller than itself. Sucessfull rolls from smaller oponents just mean it managed to don't be brought down by the mob. Instead of unarmed damage, the mob deals  the mob up attack damage to grappled oponents as they are mercyless steped over by the angry individuals. The mob can carry grappled oponents at it's full speed."


The wording may have room for improvement, but I would say it's already pointing out a mob can grapple multiple targets simultaneously.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 11, 2016, 01:24:16 AM
Quote
People who want to attempt counters can attempt so, but mob anatomy means Radiant Rolling Counter and Tower Watching Blade won't work unless you manage to deal at least 25% of the mob's HP in damage to drop their full immunity to single-target effects.
Ah, yes. Thanks for pointing it out. Another question, would abilities like Mao's that allow an attack to affect multiple targets count as an area attack? She can hit every enemy in reach with each attack. Not a cleave but technically better. Also, since the attacks ignore miss-chances, she could target both the leader of a mob/unit and the mob with those attacks, since she is already within the mob, right?

Quote
The wording may have room for improvement, but I would say it's already pointing out a mob can grapple multiple targets simultaneously.
It would indeed need to be reworded since non-mob creatures can also grapple with multiple targets simultaneously (typical kraken strategy). One new target at a time, though. The plural can be interpreted as taking into consideration that other mob abilities removes the grapple penalties for doing so. Also, did it do the typical touch attack that is needed to start the grapple?
Did it provoke the AoO for trying to grapple for everyone it was used on? Mobs do not get any ability that prevents provoking the AoO but maybe it's got the Improved Grapple feat that denies it.

Quote
Mao takes 79 damage from the warrior's last shots
Shots? Didn't it kamekaze itself and exploded? Just to be sure since if those are shots/ranged weapon attacks Mao could deflect some/all of them.
Never mind. I saw the penalty inflicted for 1 round and remember what last did it and how I dealt with it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 11, 2016, 03:21:06 AM
Welp, I'm making my Immediate Actions+Turn post. Not doing any Counters, but managed to reduce damage to 1/4 so I'm not actually hurt.

Question!

Does Disappearing Elegance (Ancient Temple) give me an attack against every creature making up a Mob?  :lmao
(Or atleast until I run out of Energy because my attacks cost Energy per swing >.> )


Edit: Eheheheh......Sorry I just nova'd and likely just committed a lot of friendly fire on Ano's Cohorts/Drones -_-'
Although if they were only just on the edge of Area B as they just arrived at the area before the Marauder turned into a Mob or if they're near Mao it's easily likely they're well clear of me crap <.<
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 11, 2016, 04:01:31 AM
Also I just noticed a disgusting combo.

Use Zeal Spirit for +1 Turn.
Use Moon Vanguard Overdrive to Recover Spirit.
Take full turn.
Take full turn again and use Zeal Spirit again on Turn 2 with your recovered Spirit.
Take 3rd full turn.

Depending on number of Overdrives a day, you can get so many back to back turns to Martial Nova like nobody's fucking business
 :lmao :lmao :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 11, 2016, 10:03:41 AM
Also I just noticed a disgusting combo.
Nothing like being on the verge of death to motivate you into paying attention to your character sheet.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 11, 2016, 01:24:15 PM
Quote
Also I just noticed a disgusting combo.

Use Zeal Spirit for +1 Turn.
Use Moon Vanguard Overdrive to Recover Spirit.
Take full turn.
Take full turn again and use Zeal Spirit again on Turn 2 with your recovered Spirit.
Take 3rd full turn.

Depending on number of Overdrives a day, you can get so many back to back turns to Martial Nova like nobody's fucking business
I wondered about how to abuse Zeal too though your combo is broken by one little detail: Zeal can be used only once per round. No matter how many turns you have, each different turn is within the same round.

Edit: I just read the game thread:
Quote
YoKa, C-25 & C-01 are not being paid much mind as Katherine doesn't register them as anything other than expendable drones that Mao deploys (And likely doesn't know better if they are actually important SORRY -_-', even I (ketaro) don't know for sure. Not hitting Mao & Ammy was all she was watching out for.
HOPEFULLY Mao's drones are either next to Mao or on the very edge of Area B if they only just arrived. I haven't been paying good attention to their locations.....
YoKa is with Mao in the mecha. It will rarely ever do much but supporting actions.
I consider C-25 to be extremely expandable. I mostly use it to waste my targets' Alert spirit so it isn't defended against the better stuff.
C-01 and C-25 are otherwise meant to be targets that aren't us. They can be ignored but then they get annoying. Mao can respawn them every round so I don't really care if they get blown up. I made them with the assumption that they could well blow up every round.
They were both at the entrance of the area. Just close enough to be in range and see what's going on in there. I'll have C-01 take the 'splosion for Mao, though, so it'll be with Mao and leave C-25 by itself.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 11, 2016, 01:37:41 PM
That's when you run around with the Summon Elemental, the Reserve Feat, to keep a creature out you can order to attack you.

Like order it to go stand next to your enemies and declare it's alligence to them shortly before throwing a rock at you. Now use a Standard Action to pop off an area attack to murder it and hurt your enemy. Burn 45 Spirit (only 64% of the cost of zeal!) on Continuous Attack to gain an entire Full-Round Action. Now use the left over Move Action to stroll over and then burn 70 Spirit on Zeal to Full-Attack your opponent twice after blasting them.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 11, 2016, 02:39:27 PM
^
That would work! Kind of like having your minions provoke harmless AoOs to get free attacks against a bunch of enemies via Cleave and similar, more efficient abilities; Valid though a bit farfetched/cheesy in execution. I've been eyeing the new Spirits as well and can't wait to retrain. Some of them are more android-ish and more interesting than what Mao's got right now.
Very interested in Scan. Could get Gamble and Gain as well since Assault is my go-to spirit and I'll rarely use anything else except in particular circumstances.

Quote
Mech's Immediate: Supporting for +3 to attack/saves/dodge.
I wanted to do something like that as well though I noticed that the mech can only do actions while you are out of it, which means it cannot use the support action while you are piloting it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 11, 2016, 05:24:22 PM
Whew, good. I was worried I'd get in trouble with our boss :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 11, 2016, 05:54:28 PM
I wanted to do something like that as well though I noticed that the mech can only do actions while you are out of it, which means it cannot use the support action while you are piloting it.[/quoteThat runs pretty contrary to the concept of supporting.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 11, 2016, 09:43:07 PM
Yeah... I imagine the idea is that while you are outside of it your mecha autopilots itself, being sentient. It then spends its immediate actions doing something similar to an ally's Aid Another and cheers you on or something. While you are piloting it doesn't do actions of its own since you are already doing them for it. I'm not sure what the mecha's level is, though. Maybe equal to the pilot's Super Pilot class level, the sum of its pilot levels or its HD.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 11, 2016, 10:05:21 PM
I just realized there's like a ridiculous amount of new Spirits since the last time I checked the list.....Damn. I need to level.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 11, 2016, 10:08:08 PM
I just realized there's like a ridiculous amount of new Spirits since the last time I checked the list.....Damn. I need to level.

Os changing things around is 50% of why I seem to be doing this without a mecha. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 11, 2016, 10:12:35 PM
I think we've both only ever used our actual mechas once this entire game, right at the start, and then we promptly ditched them cause we're so much better than them  :lol

But daaaaamn Gain is amazing for only 15 points.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 12, 2016, 07:23:25 AM
Mine got blown up because the pilot has so much more health than the mecha and I failed a spot check, actually.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 12, 2016, 08:13:30 AM
So much better than them :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 12, 2016, 01:13:43 PM
I'm still waiting on whether I can (or can not) cause an explosion even if I fail the grapple attempt... :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 12, 2016, 04:28:14 PM
Well if this were Gundam Wing you could just initiate your self deconstruct sequence.
You'll live and get your mech back within two episodes ;)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 12, 2016, 04:50:33 PM
That's funny cause she's not in a mech
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 12, 2016, 04:58:53 PM
I could summon it, in all its oversized glory.  :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 13, 2016, 08:31:33 AM
Changed Contious Attack to Super Robot (and Sacrifice to Real Pilot) to spread around extra turns.

Again, let me know if I miss any important question.

Quote
People who want to attempt counters can attempt so, but mob anatomy means Radiant Rolling Counter and Tower Watching Blade won't work unless you manage to deal at least 25% of the mob's HP in damage to drop their full immunity to single-target effects.
Ah, yes. Thanks for pointing it out. Another question, would abilities like Mao's that allow an attack to affect multiple targets count as an area attack? She can hit every enemy in reach with each attack. Not a cleave but technically better. Also, since the attacks ignore miss-chances, she could target both the leader of a mob/unit and the mob with those attacks, since she is already within the mob, right?
If it isn't specifically an area attack, no extra damage.
You could target the leader if there was one, but they're all equal and there's nobody in charge.

Quote
The wording may have room for improvement, but I would say it's already pointing out a mob can grapple multiple targets simultaneously.
It would indeed need to be reworded since non-mob creatures can also grapple with multiple targets simultaneously (typical kraken strategy). One new target at a time, though. The plural can be interpreted as taking into consideration that other mob abilities removes the grapple penalties for doing so. Also, did it do the typical touch attack that is needed to start the grapple?
Did it provoke the AoO for trying to grapple for everyone it was used on? Mobs do not get any ability that prevents provoking the AoO but maybe it's got the Improved Grapple feat that denies it.
Gah, I really need to clean up that text (done). Auto-hit (if evard's tentacles don't need to roll that, neither should a mob). Has a separate ability to deny the Aoo.


Welp, I'm making my Immediate Actions+Turn post. Not doing any Counters, but managed to reduce damage to 1/4 so I'm not actually hurt.

Question!

Does Disappearing Elegance (Ancient Temple) give me an attack against every creature making up a Mob?  :lmao
(Or atleast until I run out of Energy because my attacks cost Energy per swing >.> )
No, you would only get two attacks from Disappearing Elegance against the mob.

Yeah... I imagine the idea is that while you are outside of it your mecha autopilots itself, being sentient. It then spends its immediate actions doing something similar to an ally's Aid Another and cheers you on or something. While you are piloting it doesn't do actions of its own since you are already doing them for it. I'm not sure what the mecha's level is, though. Maybe equal to the pilot's Super Pilot class level, the sum of its pilot levels or its HD.
Yes and super Pilot level.

I just realized there's like a ridiculous amount of new Spirits since the last time I checked the list.....Damn. I need to level.

I also need to make more real bots. And more super upgrades. And think of a way to prevent everybody and their mother from going straight for HP and energy regen.

Also, what would people think of standardizing mecha progression? Aka both reals and supers get to pick a real chassis, and if you have leftover levels you can add super upgrades at leisure. Otherwise reals only upgrade every 3 levels.

I'm still waiting on whether I can (or can not) cause an explosion even if I fail the grapple attempt... :lmao
I'll rule that you can perform an attack as long as it doesn't demand anything bigger than a light weapon like regular for grapple.

Mine got blown up because the pilot has so much more health than the mecha and I failed a spot check, actually.
So much better than them :p
Well, it is intended that players wouldn't want to be inside their mechas 24/7. Their main assets are superior mobility and range boost.

Well if this were Gundam Wing you could just initiate your self deconstruct sequence.
You'll live and get your mech back within two episodes ;)
Actually Heero does spend a bunch of episodes using another mecha after self-destructing while there's about three copies of the titular Gundam Wing built and being piloted by other people.

But yes, that show gets kinda silly with the whole "I saw a bird fly by. I should self-destruct my gundam!"

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 13, 2016, 10:52:07 AM
Also, what would people think of standardizing mecha progression? Aka both reals and supers get to pick a real chassis, and if you have leftover levels you can add super upgrades at leisure. Otherwise reals only upgrade every 3 levels.

Eh, then everything's a real robot, only real robots get to be even better due to better arsenal access. Add on extra storage with super upgrades and... well, the advantage in Spirits gets pretty nullified just because of the spirit-boosting add-ons. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 13, 2016, 08:01:50 PM
So basically, buff super robots?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 13, 2016, 08:28:10 PM
So basically, buff super robots?

More of a "why even bother",  as they'd be the same but with worse options in general. :/
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 13, 2016, 08:53:35 PM
Basically, you need things that are unique to Super Robots aside from a better chassis. Like, DR and HP are nice and everything, but Super Robots need to feel less like they have a weapons list and more like they have SUPER MOVES.

I know I was quite disappointed I couldn't make Murakumo have tentacles that shot out his arms and back.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 13, 2016, 09:01:15 PM
Quote
Gah, I really need to clean up that text (done). Auto-hit (if evard's tentacles don't need to roll that, neither should a mob). Has a separate ability to deny the Aoo.
Sounds good, though I'm not sure why it would get immunity to AoOs unless by a separate ability you refer to something mobs do not get by default. Mobs do not seem to be getting that ability so far unless I missed something, though that's be normal since I see not why a group of people provoking one AoO each suddenly wouldn't provoke any.

Quote
A mob is never considered flat-footed while grappling
That's a bit weird. A mob can be flat-footed... but if it is grappling, then suddenly it is aware of every incoming threat?

Quote
Also, what would people think of standardizing mecha progression? Aka both reals and supers get to pick a real chassis, and if you have leftover levels you can add super upgrades at leisure. Otherwise reals only upgrade every 3 levels.
Aye. That's why I built the Mecha Engineer the way I did... though with Real Robot working in lists of models available it gets difficult to set, hence why I went with the 'build-your-own real robot' thing myself. It would be better if the Real pilot progressed every level like the Super rather than every once in a while.
Not sure about The supers getting a real chassis, however.

Quote
And think of a way to prevent everybody and their mother from going straight for HP and energy regen.
Hm. Quite a few ways to go about it... though the important factor may be whether what you wish to prevent is having players getting access to them right off the bat or that they seem to be such an obvious early pick. The former is fixed by simply putting a prerequisite (this can also prevent maxing them asap). The later can be fixed by putting something else that's even more interesting yet more acceptable as an early pick (though it is then rushed right after...) or by increasing the investment linked to it. You'd probably want to make their increments in power similar to the Reactor options of the Arsenal, which they have a delay on anyway.
For example, I felt the Mecha Engineer shouldn't have access to Regeneration I until it gets access to Arsenal level 3, so my suggestion would be to have Supers could get it at about 4th super pilot level, maybe in increments like Growth and Miniaturize, which would also have the benefit of having a bunch of stuff that's neat to pick into every 4 levels, and so setting upgrade priorities won't be as easy.

Quote
So basically, buff super robots?
Quote
Basically, you need things that are unique to Super Robots aside from a better chassis. Like, DR and HP are nice and everything, but Super Robots need to feel less like they have a weapons list and more like they have SUPER MOVES.

I know I was quite disappointed I couldn't make Murakumo have tentacles that shot out his arms and back.
Maybe I missed an optimization detail but I fail to see why one would deem the Super Robots to be inferior. They already get access to Burning Justice that grants super moves and for the freaky stuff you can multiclass Einst Queen or some other monster class. As far as I'm concerned the Super Robots are as different to Real Robots are as they should be considering the actual differences between the two kinds of mecha.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 13, 2016, 09:27:15 PM
Quote
So basically, buff super robots?
Quote
Basically, you need things that are unique to Super Robots aside from a better chassis. Like, DR and HP are nice and everything, but Super Robots need to feel less like they have a weapons list and more like they have SUPER MOVES.

I know I was quite disappointed I couldn't make Murakumo have tentacles that shot out his arms and back.
Maybe I missed an optimization detail but I fail to see why one would deem the Super Robots to be inferior. They already get access to Burning Justice that grants super moves and for the freaky stuff you can multiclass Einst Queen or some other monster class. As far as I'm concerned the Super Robots are as different to Real Robots are as they should be considering the actual differences between the two kinds of mecha.

To sum it up: higher levels of Arsenal give much nicer goodies. They do, in fact, combine with the Real stuff to equal or surpass Supers with no investment and a much easier build time--plus they're swapped out trivially. The weapons, for one, have combination and range options you flat-out can't get without access to that level of Arsenal.

What Supers do have is rather broad flat bonuses (which were made less available) and the Main Weapon buffs, size, and lots of basic attacks. Most of the Super Robot spirits are all about attacking, so they're pretty useful in their own way, and healing (good if you can... somehow draw out damage. Rather hard when the defensive boosts and abilities are on the other side). Burning Justice is pretty assault-heavy, too.

Now, the actual spirit advantage? Make that up with one arsenal toy. Done.

Last time I compared them, you could basically get any specialised Super Robot by picking one of the Real Robots, generally without even playing around with Arsenal options too much. So... they're simpler and there's no advantage to building a super, unless you want to generalise everywhere. Which is odd, because the first two things that come to mind are Mazinger etc and Getter Robo, which are both incredibly specific: Mazinger through to Mazinkaiser is increasing levels of tanking everything, and the Getter is a glass cannon. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 13, 2016, 09:58:26 PM
Maybe. I recall doing a quick comparison numbers for specific build objectives over several character levels between the two (I did so later as well when I made the engineer to see the numbers that are meant to be reached when you specialize) and Super Robots won every time. Not sure I kept the spreadsheets... Since some stuff changed over time though I'd be a bit surprised if I wouldn't still end up favoring the Super Robots.

Edit: Though, to be clear, you may well have the right of it. I reckon you're pretty good with numbers too and I tend to analyze stuff separately. I'll revise the two again eventually.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 17, 2016, 04:56:30 PM
Quote from: Mob rules
In order to attack, it moves into an opponent’s space, which provokes an attack of opportunity.
Maybe I'm missing a detail but it looks like we're all getting an AoO against the mob since it entered our space.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 17, 2016, 05:27:33 PM
To me, it didn't really...move. Its appearance seems more like summoning a creature and oops we just happened to be within the spaces it appeared but its a swarm and so it doesn't care it just sits on us. /shrugs
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 17, 2016, 05:50:17 PM
What Ketaro said.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 17, 2016, 09:34:57 PM
Got it! I'm currently wondering how to use my actions for offense/support/defense and, while looking for who might need help, I noticed this:

Quote from: Baha action
None?: Guard, -20 spirit.
Spirits can be used as a free action at the beginning of your turn by paying their cost in spirit points, so it cannot be used retroactively in response to receiving damage.

Since it is used an immediate action, can I use the Elixir maneuver to use an healing item to reduce the damage received by an ally or does it only heal damage received before/after the attack that procs the counter? Part of the concern is that, because of the wording, it heals only damage already received rather than the damage received after the attack.

Quote
You may initiate this counter when you or an ally within range would be damaged or inflicted with an harmful effect.
You can instantly use a potion in your possession on the victim, as long as said potion would directly heal the affliction inflicted.

Also, I wonder on the shape mob occupies in the space airborne. Since they are shapeable I imagine the mass of mechas stretches up into mid-air to reach all the way up to Mao so that she would be within their space, though is there enough of them to fill all the area around her? Mostly wondering what is the distance between her and the closest open space not occupied by the mob.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 17, 2016, 09:48:24 PM
I also don't have Guard or Alert or anything like that because when I made the character, it was possible to stack a Super Robot defensively (and rely on healing instead). Being outside the thing is quite the opposite situation. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 17, 2016, 10:25:06 PM
But spirits work in or out of the mech rainy!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 17, 2016, 10:33:19 PM
Aye, I remember you having a lot of HP and regen. The problem with Guts is that if you get one-shot'd it doesn't help much. Though back then you were facing the pre-nerfed power of love.

Quote
But spirits work in or out of the mech rainy!
Except Guts, for our sins.

I imagine the marauder has a special class/feat weapon that prevents disarms since built-in weapons can be disarmed. I'm puzzled on how only 4 charisma drain was dealt if all three attacks hit, though, since unlike ability damage it isn't affected by effects that improve/reduce damage.
I'm mostly wondering now if I've got to spend actions resurrecting people or healing or if I can focus on the offensive.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 17, 2016, 10:49:51 PM
0 Cha doesn't kill, only makes comatose. Can't res that
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 17, 2016, 10:53:49 PM
Aye, I remember you having a lot of HP and regen. The problem with Guts is that if you get one-shot'd it doesn't help much. Though back then you were facing the pre-nerfed power of love.

Yeah, that was spectacularly bad luck. Glass cannon was the natural counter to offence-heavy tank.

Quote
I'm mostly wondering now if I've got to spend actions resurrecting people or healing or if I can focus on the offensive.

I'm on negative HP. That's a thing. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 17, 2016, 11:19:06 PM
Quote
0 Cha doesn't kill, only makes comatose. Can't res that
That's the idea. Trying to take prisoners. Hard to deal enough Cha damage to knock their lights out when they die. Good thing this thing can tank hits. We already confirmed I cannot resurrect the enemy so that's not an option either way.

Quote
I'm on negative HP. That's a thing. xD
All right! I'll throw ya a Monomate!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 18, 2016, 02:10:58 AM
Got it! I'm currently wondering how to use my actions for offense/support/defense and, while looking for who might need help, I noticed this:

Quote from: Baha action
None?: Guard, -20 spirit.
Spirits can be used as a free action at the beginning of your turn by paying their cost in spirit points, so it cannot be used retroactively in response to receiving damage.
That is correct.

Since it is used an immediate action, can I use the Elixir maneuver to use an healing item to reduce the damage received by an ally or does it only heal damage received before/after the attack that procs the counter? Part of the concern is that, because of the wording, it heals only damage already received rather than the damage received after the attack.
Cleaned up the wording a bit, it's supposed to heal after the attack is completed (so if you take enough damage to be killed it's no good).

Quote
You may initiate this counter when you or an ally within range would be damaged or inflicted with an harmful effect.
You can instantly use a potion in your possession on the victim, as long as said potion would directly heal the affliction inflicted.

Also, I wonder on the shape mob occupies in the space airborne. Since they are shapeable I imagine the mass of mechas stretches up into mid-air to reach all the way up to Mao so that she would be within their space, though is there enough of them to fill all the area around her? Mostly wondering what is the distance between her and the closest open space not occupied by the mob.
Yes they reach all the way up to the ceiling and spill into the connections to the other rooms. The closest "free" point for Mao would be roughly 15 mu into the corridor back to the previous area.

I imagine the marauder has a special class/feat weapon that prevents disarms since built-in weapons can be disarmed.
Class+feat combo actually.

I'm puzzled on how only 4 charisma drain was dealt if all three attacks hit, though, since unlike ability damage it isn't affected by effects that improve/reduce damage.
The marauder simply succeeded in two of the saves?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 18, 2016, 02:32:48 AM
Thanks! I'll go and post my stuff as soon as I get some free time again.
Quote
The marauder simply succeeded in two of the saves?
And that's my cue to go get some sleep!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 18, 2016, 11:20:05 AM
That is correct.
Well I got supporting's numbers pulled off the Attack Bonuses but no Alert means no mech.

So, reading in between the lines here. You're purposely throwing a 272 figure, damn near twice my Mech's HP even with every defensive upgrade applied to it, to purposely annihilate our mechs so we can rebuild them using your new robot updates?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 18, 2016, 08:07:36 PM
That is correct.
Well I got supporting's numbers pulled off the Attack Bonuses but no Alert means no mech.

So, reading in between the lines here. You're purposely throwing a 272 figure, damn near twice my Mech's HP even with every defensive upgrade applied to it, to purposely annihilate our mechs so we can rebuild them using your new robot updates?

More like showing the danger of getting too close to the enemy without applying defensive buffs. Or not having Defend. Or not learning a single counter among your maneuvers

Also it's a bit ironic you're using old mecha rules like 40% HP regen while somehow having one of the brand new spirits. If you don't want to update your sheet, you should at least keep it consistent instead of cherry picking between old and new rules. :p

Hmmm, since we're at it, how did you learn Giant Size again? It's a Wu Jen spell whereas the Arcane Pilot can only learn from the soeceror/wizard list. I don't even care how exactly you're persisting it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 18, 2016, 08:54:56 PM
Hey, I have counters! xD

It's just that they're not actually helpful in this situation. Ignoring repeated attacks is pointless against a big source of damage, and Fall of Great Stars won't help if the enemy can do the exact same thing next round. I was not geared for this sort of attack  And it's the second time I've been hit with it in the campaign... :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 18, 2016, 09:27:37 PM
The damage received this fight so far has been pretty high from this guy's sidekicks from the previous rounds. Katherine's been dancing with death for a while now so the threat has been pretty clear.

Something I noticed:
Quote
Mao rushes in first tanking the warrior's shots at the entrance, suffering some structural damage on the proccess.
I don't see that damage listed in the Crunch. Did you forget to list it?

Quote
how did you learn Giant Size again?
Custom staff.

Quote
It's just that they're not actually helpful in this situation. Ignoring repeated attacks is pointless against a big source of damage, and Fall of Great Stars won't help if the enemy can do the exact same thing next round. I was not geared for this sort of attack  And it's the second time I've been hit with it in the campaign... :lmao
You can use Nuclear Heat "Uncontainable Dive" to get out of the mob's space without provoking AoOs, dealing damage along the way.
Since it covers some space into the corridor that leads to this space, it should be easy to just blast into it from far away. If it tries to move into the previous room to share your space it'll at least provoke an AoO. Either way you'll probably be still be safe and able to help.
I'll heal you of 72 dmg. Whatever helps. I'm still holding on to a Moon Atomizer in case someone dies.
Edit: Though if you're grappled, that won't help much. Maybe being grappled is considered can considered to be an ill condition for tricks that removes them, such as a Sol Atomizer, which I could use on you instead of the healing.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 18, 2016, 10:00:15 PM
Yup, still grappled. Needed a 19 or more.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 18, 2016, 10:21:43 PM
The damage received this fight so far has been pretty high from this guy's sidekicks from the previous rounds. Katherine's been dancing with death for a while now so the threat has been pretty clear.

Yep, I gotta say, Katherine likely feels like the squishiest, most at-risk-of-dying-every-fight person in this party. And in fact she does pretty much face dying almost every round of the majority of the fights we've had since the beginning. And yet, yes, I (Katherine) does some how always manage to not just barely get out of dying but also tends to avoid most if not all damage dealt by whatever should have killed her.

I still feel like she's near the lower end of our party dynamic tho -_-'

I'm legit waiting for ya'll to nuke this fight into being over because I don't think I can do this too much longer without retreating for a couple rounds to recoup. (Which does feel appropriate for Katherine's archetype now that I think of it. Hit like lightning and gtfo if the fight ain't already decided by the time the thunder fades  :D

Fun Fact: It takes me an average of 2 hours for every one of Katherine's turns in combat whenever she is the target of an attack. My previous turn neared 3 hours because I wasn't just dead, I was dead twice over and then some.......
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 19, 2016, 12:50:17 AM
The damage received this fight so far has been pretty high from this guy's sidekicks from the previous rounds. Katherine's been dancing with death for a while now so the threat has been pretty clear.

Something I noticed:
Quote
Mao rushes in first tanking the warrior's shots at the entrance, suffering some structural damage on the proccess.
I don't see that damage listed in the Crunch. Did you forget to list it?
Quote
Mao managed to inflict 4 charisma damage.
Mao takes 79 damage from the warrior's last shots, -1 penalty to AC and saves until healed.
Mao takes a -7 profane penalty to attack rolls, saves, attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks, ability score checks and AC for 1 round.

Quote
how did you learn Giant Size again?
Custom staff.
Thanks.

Edit: Though if you're grappled, that won't help much. Maybe being grappled is considered can considered to be an ill condition for tricks that removes them, such as a Sol Atomizer, which I could use on you instead of the healing.
No.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 19, 2016, 02:02:41 AM
Quote
Mao takes 79 damage from the warrior's last shots, -1 penalty to AC and saves until healed.
Oh, I see! I thought it was part of its death throes.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 19, 2016, 02:22:01 PM
More like showing the danger of getting too close to the enemy without applying defensive buffs. Or not having Defend. Or not learning a single counter among your maneuvers
You do realized I have stuff like ignore single-target, ignore all ranged, Cover/Conceal, +40 AC & +20 Reflex from a Boost twice now, Heart of Water -> FoM & massive Grapple, every defensive Mech upgrade, and technically buffed 3~4 Spells off the Arcane Pilot List I'm too forgetful to track because they suck right? Heck, this is the first time I've tried using Spirit too and that failed colossally.

Someone was like you need to take double your max HP in damage, it ignores all forms of defense, no Save, it's the only attack type you can't counter, oh and I'm adding ignores DR/AoOs. Not that you really needed to ad the ignore DR part to kill everyone, but you felt you needed to anyway because the point appears to be DM forced mech destruction (or in the case of RD, death I suppose since she forgot to wear her mech).

Which speaking of those Spells, I was holding a Vampiric Touch (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9809.msg309256#msg309256), Bite discharges work for you?

Also it's a bit ironic you're using old mecha rules like 40% HP regen while somehow having one of the brand new spirits. If you don't want to update your sheet, you should at least keep it consistent instead of cherry picking between old and new rules. :p
Actually I do update my sheet, every couple of months or so, but for mostly what's new to what's going on such as the NPCs/background and I do screw up numbers every now and then.

I added Spirits here recently since I'd never used them after I finally got around to updating the notes on the Funnel I stopped using because you wanted to fix that system last year (or the one before that?). But before you say something about how I should be using my Funnel, I blew my last Swift Action on Ten Suns, recovered, and reblew this round's Swift on it too because I'm under the misconception that my AC/Reflex should be helping me here. Which wouldn't have mattered anyway since it would reduce damage by a mere 16 points or about a hundred and twenty less then being useful to the current situation. Plus the Funnel would have been destroyed in the entire must kill all mechs attack anyway.

Hmmm, since we're at it, how did you learn Giant Size again? It's a Wu Jen spell whereas the Arcane Pilot can only learn from the soeceror/wizard list. I don't even care how exactly you're persisting it.
It should be off one of the Staffs, either the Runestaff or the actual Staff depending how I worked out applying Persist. Hence why I also have like a +14 UMD Check.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 19, 2016, 10:57:20 PM
The damage received this fight so far has been pretty high from this guy's sidekicks from the previous rounds. Katherine's been dancing with death for a while now so the threat has been pretty clear.

Yep, I gotta say, Katherine likely feels like the squishiest, most at-risk-of-dying-every-fight person in this party. And in fact she does pretty much face dying almost every round of the majority of the fights we've had since the beginning. And yet, yes, I (Katherine) does some how always manage to not just barely get out of dying but also tends to avoid most if not all damage dealt by whatever should have killed her.

I still feel like she's near the lower end of our party dynamic tho -_-'

I'm legit waiting for ya'll to nuke this fight into being over because I don't think I can do this too much longer without retreating for a couple rounds to recoup. (Which does feel appropriate for Katherine's archetype now that I think of it. Hit like lightning and gtfo if the fight ain't already decided by the time the thunder fades  :D

Fun Fact: It takes me an average of 2 hours for every one of Katherine's turns in combat whenever she is the target of an attack. My previous turn neared 3 hours because I wasn't just dead, I was dead twice over and then some.......

I am less squishy than Katherine and I'm STILL the guy who doesn't even bother with Mage Armor.  :p

No, wait

EDIT: Osle, remind me what, if anything, do I need to change about Hugo's mech? I am confused about how people seem to be having like new and old rules mixed up since I haven't looked at the rules in... a while. @_@
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 19, 2016, 11:06:39 PM
The damage received this fight so far has been pretty high from this guy's sidekicks from the previous rounds. Katherine's been dancing with death for a while now so the threat has been pretty clear.

Yep, I gotta say, Katherine likely feels like the squishiest, most at-risk-of-dying-every-fight person in this party. And in fact she does pretty much face dying almost every round of the majority of the fights we've had since the beginning. And yet, yes, I (Katherine) does some how always manage to not just barely get out of dying but also tends to avoid most if not all damage dealt by whatever should have killed her.

I still feel like she's near the lower end of our party dynamic tho -_-'

I'm legit waiting for ya'll to nuke this fight into being over because I don't think I can do this too much longer without retreating for a couple rounds to recoup. (Which does feel appropriate for Katherine's archetype now that I think of it. Hit like lightning and gtfo if the fight ain't already decided by the time the thunder fades  :D

Fun Fact: It takes me an average of 2 hours for every one of Katherine's turns in combat whenever she is the target of an attack. My previous turn neared 3 hours because I wasn't just dead, I was dead twice over and then some.......

I am less squishy than Katherine and I'm STILL the guy who doesn't even bother with Mage Armor.  :p

No, wait

EDIT: Osle, remind me what, if anything, do I need to change about Hugo's mech? I am confused about how people seem to be having like new and old rules mixed up since I haven't looked at the rules in... a while. @_@


Well, if it uses real robots as a basis, nothing. If it uses supers, there were more caps introduced on maximum upgrades depending on level, so you'll probably have to redistribute upgrade points.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 19, 2016, 11:23:34 PM
Yeah I had to rebuild my super robot nanoarmor earlier this year I remember. Had to spread points out more evenly cause couldn't get some things as high anymore with the new progression caps, but somehow came out with a stronger super robot anyways.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 19, 2016, 11:36:59 PM
The damage received this fight so far has been pretty high from this guy's sidekicks from the previous rounds. Katherine's been dancing with death for a while now so the threat has been pretty clear.

Yep, I gotta say, Katherine likely feels like the squishiest, most at-risk-of-dying-every-fight person in this party. And in fact she does pretty much face dying almost every round of the majority of the fights we've had since the beginning. And yet, yes, I (Katherine) does some how always manage to not just barely get out of dying but also tends to avoid most if not all damage dealt by whatever should have killed her.

I still feel like she's near the lower end of our party dynamic tho -_-'

I'm legit waiting for ya'll to nuke this fight into being over because I don't think I can do this too much longer without retreating for a couple rounds to recoup. (Which does feel appropriate for Katherine's archetype now that I think of it. Hit like lightning and gtfo if the fight ain't already decided by the time the thunder fades  :D

Fun Fact: It takes me an average of 2 hours for every one of Katherine's turns in combat whenever she is the target of an attack. My previous turn neared 3 hours because I wasn't just dead, I was dead twice over and then some.......

I am less squishy than Katherine and I'm STILL the guy who doesn't even bother with Mage Armor.  :p

No, wait

EDIT: Osle, remind me what, if anything, do I need to change about Hugo's mech? I am confused about how people seem to be having like new and old rules mixed up since I haven't looked at the rules in... a while. @_@


Well, if it uses real robots as a basis, nothing. If it uses supers, there were more caps introduced on maximum upgrades depending on level, so you'll probably have to redistribute upgrade points.

I only have like... 4 Super Pilot levels, to be fair, so.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 19, 2016, 11:44:56 PM
EDIT: Osle, remind me what, if anything, do I need to change about Hugo's mech? I am confused about how people seem to be having like new and old rules mixed up since I haven't looked at the rules in... a while. @_@
Oh don't feel bad, I initially had no idea what he meant either, specially given the remark about it.
"Also it's a bit ironic you're using old mecha rules like 40% HP regen while somehow having one of the brand new spirits."
Even in his new thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7165.msg178255#msg178255), where you're still supposed to dig for another (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7157.0), "Mech Regeneration" is still X/10ths. IE 4 is 4/10ths or 40%.

His real complaint I think was the purchase cost was drastically increased and caps became 1+(1/2 level) rather than 1+level. So like I have 14 upgrades in Plating but I should have 8. Ironically, I only spent 14 points in Regeneration too, so really I'm just not per-cap compliant which has produces a highly abnormally defensive mech that is "broken" as far as it's defensive values are concerned. ...And yet it's still curbed stomped in one hit.

I only have like... 4 Super Pilot levels, to be fair, so.
That should be next to impossible seeing how it's Gestated and your other half is forced pilot.
Edit - You have Arcane Pilot like me. It still gives you upgrade points, not sure how if affects your base scale through.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 20, 2016, 12:54:42 AM
You linked the Super Robot page twice.

Though I think I suggested reshuffling where various features are listed, so Os isn't the one behind that.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 20, 2016, 01:02:18 AM
Though I think I suggested reshuffling where various features are listed, so Os isn't the one behind that.

So if we die this fight, it's Rainy's fault!  :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 20, 2016, 01:12:05 AM
Though I think I suggested reshuffling where various features are listed, so Os isn't the one behind that.

So if we die this fight, it's Rainy's fault!  :lmao

Only if someone dies because of not being able to find the SRW thing they're looking for!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 20, 2016, 01:51:33 AM
Yeah I had to rebuild my super robot nanoarmor earlier this year I remember. Had to spread points out more evenly cause couldn't get some things as high anymore with the new progression caps, but somehow came out with a stronger super robot anyways.

EDIT: Osle, remind me what, if anything, do I need to change about Hugo's mech? I am confused about how people seem to be having like new and old rules mixed up since I haven't looked at the rules in... a while. @_@
Oh don't feel bad, I initially had no idea what he meant either, specially given the remark about it.
"Also it's a bit ironic you're using old mecha rules like 40% HP regen while somehow having one of the brand new spirits."
Even in his new thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7165.msg178255#msg178255), where you're still supposed to dig for another (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7157.0), "Mech Regeneration" is still X/10ths. IE 4 is 4/10ths or 40%.

His real complaint I think was the purchase cost was drastically increased and caps became 1+(1/2 level) rather than 1+level. So like I have 14 upgrades in Plating but I should have 8. Ironically, I only spent 14 points in Regeneration too, so really I'm just not per-cap compliant which has produces a highly abnormally defensive mech that is "broken" as far as it's defensive values are concerned. ...And yet it's still curbed stomped in one hit.

I didn't just add the caps (mostly to limit the rampart scaling of AC/attack bonus), I also buffed the HP benefit of plating and base SR HP.

So before a 13th level SR would have 130 (base)+70 (14x oldplating)=200 HP.

With the new rules each level of plating grants +10 HP and the SR also gets an extra +5 so the end result for a level 13 is 135(base)+70 (7x newplating)=205 HP, pulling a bit ahead actually.  But now you only spend half the points in getting 7 plating upgrades, so you have 7 leftover points to spend in other stuff.

Then of course arcane pilots only get 3/5 HP on their mechas so they're squishier and need to take extra care.

Plans for the next SR update in the near future since I'm at it:
-Make Extra arsenal and nanomachines/mysterious power mutually exclusive.
-Add a "great one" upgrade that grants a massive boost to certain characteristics (defense/attack/agility/damage) but halves another fixed. Like, Great Plating would add +40 HP, +4 Nat, +4 DR, but halve dodge bonus. Great damage would be like Power +4, but halve movement speed. Great agility would be +40 mu movement, +4 dodge, but halve natural armor. Great attack would be a plain +4 to all attacks, halves DR. 4 points, only once.
-"Hardened Armor" makes your DR fully apply against all sources of damage, cannot be reduced/ignored unless attacker has a special weapon property of your choice, drains energy every time hit. May discard Hardened Armor to fully ignore any one attack (recover next time can change arsenal). 4 points.
-"Special Attack" allows to add special weapon properties to attacks that cause damage without using weapons, like several Burning Justice maneuvers. Specific properties must be picked when upgraded but you can pick different ones for each attack. Can be taken twice for 3 and 4 points, increases energy cost by 10%/20% when activated.

EDIT: Osle, remind me what, if anything, do I need to change about Hugo's mech? I am confused about how people seem to be having like new and old rules mixed up since I haven't looked at the rules in... a while. @_@

Eeeerrr, you somehow have a Weisswriter base when you have no levels in real robot nor divine pilot which should be kinda impossible. :psyduck

So that means you'll need to re-do it from scratch. Using only SR rules.

Kinda escaped me so far since you usually hang in the back and only use funnels.

Though I think I suggested reshuffling where various features are listed, so Os isn't the one behind that.
RRRAAAAIIIINNNNEEEHHH!!!!  :shakefist
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 20, 2016, 09:06:33 AM
I have to say, halving an entire defence for those sort of bonuses looks like a really bad trade-off outside of low levels.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 20, 2016, 10:41:22 AM
...oh, GREAT.

Can I get a link to the updated SR rules? Pretty please?

EDIT: While I'm at it, background aside, I cannot for the life of me remember why I bothered to go with arcane pilot over divine pilot. The arcane pilot list SUCKS.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 20, 2016, 11:04:19 AM
Linkie (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7165.0)

Speaking of which, should nanomachine's healing take energy? It seems like that would make sense.
I'm also thinking of a new status similar to disable (that I'll perhaps implement in a class/prestige class) where a mecha reached critical point and can no longer regen energy and all energy usage uses hp instead; to illustrate a mecha being damage to critical parts of its systems and no longer functioning properly (could get penalties to speeds, attacks and similar). Until repaired or energy is obtained from another source than the mecha itself.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 20, 2016, 12:58:10 PM
Also gonna need links for Arcane pilots and... a ton of other stuff.

EDIT: Huh... Never noticed that the main casting stat for Arcane Pilot is Charisma...

Unless I can switch it to Intelligence somehow, there goes the last bit of synergy with arcane pilot I could possibly want.

...I'm going to end up almost fully Super Pilot, save for one level in AP so I can channel my spells through my robot.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 20, 2016, 01:19:56 PM
You linked the Super Robot page twice.
Yeah, one of those was suppose to be the dead thread just to highlight things. You used to also have to open the Real Robot thread for the basic upgrades on top of the Super Robot thread for the Super-only upgrades so I mean technically we're better than we were. Through I still have to have Arcane/SR/Basic simultaneously open.

So before a 13th level SR would have 130 (base)+70 (14x oldplating)=200 HP.
Yeah, most of the old formulas are still posted in Baha's sheet.

Like Plating still only grants +1 AC/DR per upgrade and most of the rest haven't even been touched. ZERO is getting destroyed in one hit and after reincarnation it'll lose 14 AC, 7 DR, and it's HP regain will halve down to 20%/rnd making it easier for you to destroy next time. But I suppose I'll finally have the points to pick up Gravity Wall.

...I'm going to end up almost fully Super Pilot, save for one level in AP so I can channel my spells through my robot.
We should all just level up soon. The best way to fix math errors and handle homebrew updates is just to restat everything right? :D
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 20, 2016, 01:52:03 PM
This will also result in Hugo suddenly getting EXTRA buff because SO MUCH HP. (We're talking a d4 to 12 upgrade here.)

EDIT: Can someone remind me how the heck I calculate which maneuvers I have access to?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 20, 2016, 02:06:39 PM
Check at every level you gain a new maneuver known what is the maximum maneuver level you have access to, which is equal to your pilot level+1, halved (similar to what is needed for wizard casting). Your pilot level is equal to your level in the pilot martial class that gets the new maneuver + half the sum of all your non-pilot martial class levels.
...Plus the class levels in any pilot-martial prestige class that specifically allows you to do so.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 20, 2016, 02:57:33 PM
which is equal to your pilot level+1, halved.
Most people write it as [lvl/2]+1 but yeah pretty much. Just remember if the level doesn't grant any Martial Advancement then you get +1/2 rate.

And they are tied to the instance. Like a Warblade 4 / Swordsage 3 / Fighter 2 gets four levels of Warblade progression and five levels that didn't. His ILs are 6.5 for Warblade and 6 for Swordsage, which is enough for 3rd level Maneuvers in each side depending on which Ready/Recovery mechanic he wants to use.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 20, 2016, 03:01:29 PM
This will also result in Hugo suddenly getting EXTRA buff because SO MUCH HP. (We're talking a d4 to 12 upgrade here.)

EDIT: Can someone remind me how the heck I calculate which maneuvers I have access to?

Burning Justice, Danger Zone for Super Pilot, I think--you can't swap one out for either of the two newer schools. Standard (N+1)/2 level access, with other-class levels counting as 1/2.

Speaking of which, should nanomachine's healing take energy? It seems like that would make sense.

... No? The it-costs-something healing is available through spirits and more powerful to boot.

Quote
I'm also thinking of a new status similar to disable (that I'll perhaps implement in a class/prestige class) where a mecha reached critical point and can no longer regen energy and all energy usage uses hp instead; to illustrate a mecha being damage to critical parts of its systems and no longer functioning properly (could get penalties to speeds, attacks and similar). Until repaired or energy is obtained from another source than the mecha itself.

Do we need more save or dies? Because that's sounding a lot like an effect that may as well be replaced with 'dies'.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 20, 2016, 03:53:41 PM
Quote
Most people write it as [lvl/2]+1
They do? But... it doesn't work.
Pilot level of 4 does not grant level 3 maneuvers.

Quote
... No? The it-costs-something healing is available through spirits and more powerful to boot.
I know. I'm thinking that maybe it should as I imagine that a mecha that is spent shouldn't be able to keep on healing itself.
That's just how I picture it.

Quote
Do we need more save or dies? Because that's sounding a lot like an effect that may as well be replaced with 'dies'.
Exactly. It is in effect an alternate form of death/very-near death that doesn't lead to a destroyed mecha. Since a mecha that is taken out of a fight do not always lead to them blowing to pieces.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 20, 2016, 06:50:37 PM
Quote
Most people write it as [lvl/2]+1
They do? But... it doesn't work.
Pilot level of 4 does not grant level 3 maneuvers.

Same problem with yours.
which is equal to your pilot level+1, halved.
4+1=5, 5/2=3.5. Per your equation Pilot 4th should be granting Maneuvers with a level of three and a half :p

It's supposed to be a minus not a plus, or Min IL = [Maneuver*2]-1.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 20, 2016, 07:20:04 PM
No, it's definitely +1, you just round down like everything else in 3.5 If it was -1, you wouldn't get 2nd level maneuvers until level 4. Generally you want to work out the maneuver level the character can use, not the character level needed for a maneuver. O_o

... anyway, the sum of it is that a Super Pilot 12/Arcane Pilot 1 can use 6th level maneuvers, a Super Pilot 13 7th.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 20, 2016, 09:08:09 PM
Quote
5/2=3.5
No.

5/2=2.5, which you then round down, as usual.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 20, 2016, 09:30:04 PM
No wonder why I always complain I suck at math.

And yet I play D&D, go figure. >.>
Can you not buy Mech Special Properties anymore? I used to have a Stealth system, now it's not part of the updates but it still appears in the properties area.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 20, 2016, 10:02:46 PM
It is in the arsenal as a first level accessory.
I mean. I don't recall it ever being made available otherwise if not from one of the properties included in a specific Real Robot.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 20, 2016, 10:45:27 PM
It is in the arsenal as a first level accessory.
That's what it is, why off in another thread.

Current-ZERO has 75 Arsenal, Stealth & Breath Weapon look like the first 50. No idea what the last 25 was Breath Weapons take 50 Arsenal Space for some reason, but it's impossible to gain more than 50 space anyway (75 slots cost 8 points and we're capped at 7). And it's banned from being taken with HP or Energy regain too. And it doesn't tell you what levels your limited too.

You know, the frustrations of dealing with this system are slowly coming back to me. Only now that are a bazillion nerfs tied to it. I can plainly see why a couple people in the group are not using them. Massive learning curve for what amounts to practically no gain.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 20, 2016, 10:57:19 PM
More accurately: why I haven't bothered to rebuild it. I didn't think this was a mecha fight or I would've.

My big beef with it is that after the nerfs, the specialisation is restricted. The numbers for maximum X run similar to the same tier Real Robot (can't quite recall if it was with Arsenal upgrades added in). That's fine, but it does overcomplicate things.

But several levels more Arsenal have the other advantage of much better and more variable base attacks, plus quicker refitting. I think it's still possible to do a 14-20 crit build that has a x4 multiplier by picking the right feats by about level 10. And now, on top of that, there's four available schools to pick from for Real Pilots. Super Pilot is increased complexity for less choice.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 20, 2016, 11:32:18 PM
I ain't got much to change with the updated upgrades once the battle is over. Mostly swapping points around elsewhere.
I'm okay with Mysterious Power/Nanomachines blocking the increase in arsenal space since you effectively then get them as if they were an exclusive Super Robot arsenal accessory. Which makes sense.

I think perhaps Super Robots should have an option similar to the Amplifier arsenal that can be taken as an upgrade, since using supernatural/strange abilities with your robot is more aligned with Super Robots than Real Robots anyway.

While we're commenting on stuff, here's an upgrade that I found sub-optimal ever since I saw it, for most builds:
Quote
Extra:The super robot gains one extra in-built basic weapon. Cannot be taken more than once per 4 HD.
The basic built-in weapons of the super robots suck. 1d6+Str mod. Why would anyone want more of them? (barring building your entire build around having as many in-built weapons on you as possible for the use of specific maneuvers/abilities)

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 21, 2016, 12:06:49 AM
-Amplifier no longer is an Arsenal option but a 2 point Super upgrade, because indeed it is a much more super thing than a real one.
-Un-nerfed targeter, applies to all super weapons again.
-Added Great One option to reward a super to specialize in armor or dodging.


Will look to speed up finishing another super school (still need tac feat for gun maniac though).

While we're commenting on stuff, here's an upgrade that I found sub-optimal ever since I saw it, for most builds:
Quote
Extra:The super robot gains one extra in-built basic weapon. Cannot be taken more than once per 4 HD.
The basic built-in weapons of the super robots suck. 1d6+Str mod. Why would anyone want more of them? (barring building your entire build around having as many in-built weapons on you as possible for the use of specific maneuvers/abilities)

Precisely, it's there for people wanting a build around having as many weapons as possible.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 21, 2016, 12:30:42 AM
Thanks!

This one's a bit vague:
Quote
Special Attack: For each offensive maneuver the super robot knows that deals damage without using a weapon, you can pick a special property between Disarming, Grabbing, Pinning, Concussive or Downfall. Enemies damaged by the maneuver are affected by the special property. You may pick a different property for each valid maneuver. Specific properties must be picked when upgraded but you can pick different ones for each attack. Can be taken twice for 3 and 4 points, increases energy cost by 10%/20% when activated.
I understand that it is meant to cost 3 points to take it once and 4 points for the second time, and that the second pick means you apply two mecha weapon properties to the maneuver instead of one?
Otherwise, in execution it can lead to weird situations. How does an instantaneous effect start/maintain a grapple that requires no longer using the weapon that started it when the effect is gone right after it occurred?

Something I may have noticed before though I remember the Super Robot at least used to automatically get 50 arsenal space at a given level (which would lead to the upgrades for arsenal access being the only way to get arsenal accessories barred some short multi-classing, for a gespent base with 100 arsenal space, say). Is it me or that has been removed? The super pilot class also states the Arsenal access is acquired at level 3 when the table shows it to be acquired at level 4.

Also, the spoiler-box for the upgrades got broken.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 21, 2016, 12:33:49 AM
At least this is a genuine AoE and gets a damage bonus.

Minmax dice hate me today. x_x
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 21, 2016, 12:52:30 AM
Why did you roll a d20 for Creeping Sun? Doesn't it deal a string of d6s?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 21, 2016, 12:59:45 AM
Why did you roll a d20 for Creeping Sun? Doesn't it deal a string of d6s?

I got Creeping Sun and Mega Flare's rolls confused.

And rolled below average on both rolls.

What does the board's diceroller have against me  today? xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 21, 2016, 01:09:53 AM
While we're talking about changes with mechas and whatnot I had a funny thought.

What if Moon Vanguard let you pick Ship Captain's Battleship(s) to be emulated by the Nanoarmor?

I'd totally play that :D

Man, I keep wanting to play a Ship Captain. Just be all amazing standing in the middle of a fire-fight barking orders, completely unfazed and unscathed by all the lasers and explosions going off endlessly. Zero offensive abilities just shit tons of Pilot feats & Spirit regens  :rolleyes
Actually a lazy as fck character~
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 21, 2016, 07:32:32 AM
That... brings to mind the image of something strange I've seen referenced to that's been poping up around the Internet. There are some kinds of girl/battle-cruisers hybrids.
Very strange.

Which goes to show that you can apparently mix anything with a girl and sell it in japan.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 21, 2016, 07:48:47 AM
That... brings to mind the image of something strange I've seen referenced to that's been poping up around the Internet. There are some kinds of girl/battle-cruisers hybrids.
Very strange.

Which goes to show that you can apparently mix anything with a girl and sell it in japan.

It's called Kantai Collection, and either the main game built around it is pretty awesome (it's a TCG of some sort, apparently) or people like it because it's spawned a fuckton of hentai (and I do mean a fuckton, I mean, you literally can't help but stumble on it even in non-hentai sites).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 21, 2016, 12:39:44 PM
The girl driver thing? That hit Reddit a while ago and it is starting to pop up on all the Japano sites.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 21, 2016, 02:40:32 PM
The girl driver thing? That hit Reddit a while ago and it is starting to pop up on all the Japano sites.

Nah that's something new
Kantai is a couple years old now and boring~
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 21, 2016, 09:38:49 PM
Nah that's something new
btw, what is the girl driver thing? Like it seems to have vanished and I swear it hit Reddit/imgur and a couple other sites but obviously searching "girl driver" get returns a bunch of Youtube crash videos.

Also @Ols, what are the chances of of a level up happening soon? Like I have no idea how much time has happened in game but based on everyone else's edit's it's been three years. So while I'm complimenting a new mech build should I be thinking in terms of being able to select 8 upgrades in each area instead of 7?  :flutter
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 21, 2016, 09:47:46 PM
https://www.destructoid.com/drive-girls-a-transforming-mecha-car-game-looks-like-my-jam-386281.phtml (https://www.destructoid.com/drive-girls-a-transforming-mecha-car-game-looks-like-my-jam-386281.phtml)

It was in the video game discussion thread
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 21, 2016, 09:59:01 PM
... In hindsight, I should have objected to being engulfed in a mob attack when I seem to remember hit and run tactics. With range that would've taken me well outside the room again. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 25, 2016, 07:59:44 AM
Also @Ols, what are the chances of of a level up happening soon? Like I have no idea how much time has happened in game but based on everyone else's edit's it's been three years. So while I'm complimenting a new mech build should I be thinking in terms of being able to select 8 upgrades in each area instead of 7?  :flutter

You already leveled up after facing the esper if I'm not mistaken. You'll need at least another major challenge overcome. Half of the players just happen to have mythweaver sheets and thus don't update the forum posts themselves.

On the other hand your character seems to be missing any ranks in Craft (Explosives) which are kinda needed for several of the Nuclear Dragon's maneuvers. I'll let you retrain that now.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 25, 2016, 09:59:32 AM
Quote
You already leveled up after facing the esper if I'm not mistaken.
Last level up was from the first mission on Ragol, after the dragon w/ healing lasers room, mostly.

Quote
On the other hand your character seems to be missing any ranks in Craft (Explosives)
He's got Knowledge (Astronomy). It's been updated to that key-ability score. RD is still with the old Craft (Explosive) but it doesn't matter much since they're both Int-keyed skills that won't see much use one way or another. And that's despite us being in a space traveling campaign.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 25, 2016, 11:14:16 AM
You already leveled up after facing the esper if I'm not mistaken.
You mean Ayrk? No, we didn't level after that. We started at level 12 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9708.msg157605#msg157605) and Bahamut is lv13.

A little digging later and here is your first offer to level up (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11952.msg229752#msg229752) and the confirmation (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11952.msg257948#msg257948). Per timeline of, Stepember-ish 2014, in the IC thread we were chilling out in a bar after giving a report over defeating the self-repairing dragon. Anomander was spot on.

He's got Knowledge (Astronomy). It's been updated to that key-ability score.
See I totally keep my sheet up to date with all homebrew changes!

*cough* We leveled like nine months after the skill change (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5683.180) which is probably the only reason I caught it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 25, 2016, 08:55:40 PM
My bad on the leveling up. Then I guess yes you can count on upgrading after this battle if you survive.

See I totally keep my sheet up to date with all homebrew changes!


 The Nuclear Dragon uses Craft (Explosives) as the key skill for the school instead of the one listed in the link (this change is not optional).
 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6660.msg100778#msg100778)

Your OOC searching abilities are admirable, but you should also keep tabs on your base class.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 25, 2016, 09:08:13 PM
I would've updated to Knowledge (Astronomy) if only because knowing how the fuck stars work is far more plausible background wise than knowing how to make nitroglycerin.

But that means editing that sheet. Which is painful. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 25, 2016, 09:39:49 PM
Quote
The Nuclear Dragon uses Craft (Explosives) as the key skill for the school instead of the one listed in the link (this change is not optional).
Ah, there's that! Makes a lot more sense for a nuclear dragon to use Craft ('splosives) too, so that's just as well.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 25, 2016, 11:07:02 PM
Quote from: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6660.msg100778#msg100778
The Nuclear Dragon uses Craft (Explosives) as the key skill for the school instead of the one listed in the link (this change is not optional).
Well then it's a good thing I'll be making a new sheet after Baha's death leveling up then, it'll give me a chance to maybe spot some changes and with the attention to the sheets maybe spot an error or four.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 25, 2016, 11:09:39 PM
The challenge in seeing who's the last man standing is real. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 27, 2016, 03:20:40 PM
I could have swore something was said about channeling our Special Abilities through the Mech would become a Super Robot Upgrade instead of Arsenal right? Also what is the Arsenal level cap? Like 7th?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 27, 2016, 03:41:38 PM
^Correct!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 27, 2016, 04:34:38 PM
That'd be cool then. I can finally get some armor for my mech. I assume "G-Territory" which grants the "G-Wall" means Gravity Wall right?

Also I know it was ruled my buffs apply to the mech when I get in it, but does that hold true if I swap out the umm ..."Arcane Channeling" arsenal stuff for something more than Divine-Flame only offense? Like some of the mech weapons scale up pretty nice.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 27, 2016, 10:49:39 PM
Quote
"G-Territory" which grants the "G-Wall" means Gravity Wall right?
Aye, though that is a level 6 accessory so it shouldn't be available to us for quite a while yet. Maybe in 6-7 years.

Quote
Also I know it was ruled my buffs apply to the mech when I get in it, but does that hold true if I swap out the umm ..."Arcane Channeling" arsenal stuff for something more than Divine-Flame only offense? Like some of the mech weapons scale up pretty nice.
Not sure I understand what you're trying to ask.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 27, 2016, 11:10:55 PM
Aye, though that is a level 6 accessory so it shouldn't be available to us for quite a while yet. Maybe in 6-7 years.
I'm getting mixed signals here.
Quote
I could have swore something was said about channeling our Special Abilities through the Mech would become a Super Robot Upgrade instead of Arsenal right? Also what is the Arsenal level cap? Like 7th?
^Correct!
Anyway, after some digging, I finally found the maximum level.

It's not listed on Arcane Pilot.
It's not listed in the Arsenal thread.
It's not listed in the Mech Basics (through misleading it claims stuff like real+super-3).
It's not listed in the actual Super Robot that Arcane Pilot points to.
It's only listed in the Super Pilot Class, but not even in the description simply it's table.
So technically speaking, since Arsenal levels are a Real/Super Pilot only Class Feature. I can buy space, or even remove the arcane parts, but cannot fill it since my maximum level is null. For everyone else, the answer is 4th and you're welcome.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 27, 2016, 11:18:56 PM
Oh yeah, arsenal access is a CF. I forgot that it was a class level based thing.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 27, 2016, 11:20:31 PM
The maximum arsenal level is 7th.
That doesn't mean that it is every classes' maximum arsenal level. It just is the maximum level possible. Super pilot by itself cannot get more than 6th without epic levels.
And even if you went maximum real pilot, you wouldn't have access to it 'till 16th level, which is why I mentioned it isn't available to us yet.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 28, 2016, 03:16:14 PM
Oh yeah, arsenal access is a CF. I forgot that it was a class level based thing.
I never knew, the homebrew is about the least intuitive thing I've seen since college-level programming assignments.

There is also some ambiguity like how often can you find bullets to reload or are energy costs per hit or per round. But given the implication of a lv4's ability to double buy say the Anti-Ship Sword your typical Super Robot can deal 18d12+(Strx2) for, ooh say full battery upgrade but no actual energy regeneration for like 26~28 rounds. And heck, it's not even a "beam" weapon and it partially ignores AC/DR. Given that's far beyond WotC's Spells without heavy Metamagic abuse and casting the local area into a semi-permanent winter, and the Arcane Pilot's horribly gimped list sucks, it really needs at least some level of arsenal. And it already pays a hefty storage fee so Super's progression is probably appropriate.

And like a bonus Gravity Wall access. I mean that is a 15/hit type and a "Prototype" that costs 10/hit. It seems like the normal G-Wall is supposed to be lower than the maximum so you can get the upgrade later on. So why not lv4 which retranslates into like ECL13+?  0:)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 10:18:32 AM
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“That will not work twice” counter to stop Mao's attack.
It'll have to save against the Charisma drain anyway since it can affect creatures immune to it, though they get a +5 bonus on the save.
Also, when something like that happens in response to the first attack of many attacks, doesn't it make sense that the attacker can simply choose a different weapon for the rest of the attacks?

Out of interest, if That won't work twice! is used again and again, it is a maneuver that lasts a minute rather than the usual 1 round, does the immunity of each use stack or does the next use overwrites the previous?

And isn't everyone that has the mob within their melee reach getting an AoO?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 10:38:12 AM
Quote
“That will not work twice” counter to stop Mao's attack.
Also, when something like that happens in response to the first attack of many attacks, doesn't it make sense that the attacker can simply choose a different weapon for the rest of the attacks?

This "something happening" is "they're no longer taking damage". Knowledge (Martial) would have to come up to identify exactly why that is. And without the check, you'd at a minimum have to waste a second attack to find out that it isn't working, followed by an intuitive leap to realise it's the choice of weapon.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 10:44:54 AM
Mao had a similar thing happen to her while fighting the huge beasts on Ragol. She's used to the idea of switching weapons when one no longer does anything.
And even then, anyone with half a brain would figure after the second attack fudges while other people's do work that something is up with the weapon itself and trying another might be a good idea.

Though she won't see bits breaking off when she strikes, she'd still feel the charisma drain  inflicted so she'd likely keep on using the same weapon anyway, seeing it as convenient.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 11:01:44 AM
That's a matter of how the counter is fluffed. It doesn't have to be simply tanking hits, and if it's styled as blocking or deflection then it makes no sense as a response to change weapon in the midst of attacking without the appropriate martial knowledge.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 11:06:54 AM
Fluff doesn't affect the mechanics of battle. It is meant to make it more interesting, not yield any advantage whatsoever. Otherwise it's no longer fluff and becomes part of the mechanics. The effect is only that it no longer deals damage.
An attack that hits still hits, it just doesn't do anything. There is no deflection, blocking or anything like that. You're supposed to inflict damage and it seems to meet infinite DR.
That's different.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 11:51:24 AM
Well, no. Go check how DR itself is described. A counter that makes ANYTHING not work a second time could be presented in a vast number of manners without stepping beyond the plausible scope of existing defences. Infinite deflection AC covers physical attacks as well, and infinite saves a lot of magical effects.

There's no requirement listed anywhere in the rules for the fluff to be so close to the first mechanical effect that springs to mind that, with no in character knowledge or the counter's being listed in the post, you can accurately determine exactly what part of the attack isn't working. It's not like there aren't any OTHER potential counters that could lead to taking no damage
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 12:40:03 PM
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Well, no. Go check how DR itself is described.
Yep. Pretty much what I meant as far as getting apparent immunity to the damage goes.

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There's no requirement listed anywhere in the rules for the fluff to be so close to the first mechanical effect that springs to mind that
That doesn't make much sense. You don't get rules for fluff. Otherwise it wouldn't be fluff and would be actual mechanics.

I'll also note that Osle specifically stated which counter was done, instead of just saying what happened like he usually does, which negates all possibility of figuring out what happened normally.
The reason would likely be that Mao recognized it, otherwise he wouldn't have specified what was used against her attack.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 12:46:00 PM
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There's no requirement listed anywhere in the rules for the fluff to be so close to the first mechanical effect that springs to mind that
That doesn't make much sense. You don't get rules for fluff. Otherwise it wouldn't be fluff and would be actual mechanics.

Which does mean that the fluff doesn't have to sync up with 'tank it', because that doesn't necessarily equate to what happened.

Quote
I'll also note that Osle specifically stated which counter was done, instead of just saying what happened like he usually does, which negates all possibility of figuring out what happened normally.
The reason would likely be that Mao recognized it, otherwise he wouldn't have specified what was used against her attack.

Er, probably to prevent wasting time on asking questions about numbers or boosts or what have you when it just stops working after the first hit.

Though I wonder if the immunity-breaking part of the Charisma drain would work. How's it worded?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 29, 2016, 01:11:32 PM
Though I wonder if the immunity-breaking part of the Charisma drain would work. How's it worded?
Anomander probably hasn't written it down yet.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 01:23:58 PM
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Which does mean that the fluff doesn't have to sync up with 'tank it', because that doesn't necessarily equate to what happened.
While your statement isn't false, what I said doesn't mean that. It only means that you cannot use fluff in whichever way you want just because there are no rules for it specifically because fluff is what isn't covered by rules. And it isn't covered by rules because it shouldn't have to be since it is inconsequential to what happens mechanically.
If fluff gives you any mechanical advantage, it isn't fluff. Something that is fluff ceases to be when it has a mechanical impact. (Say, if I use an spell that does extra damage to anyone with blue eyes. Then the fluff of the eye color suddenly becomes relevant mechanically.)
And fluff certainly doesn't allow you to change what the mechanics imply.
A weapon hits a touch attack on the target if it beats the touch AC, never mind actually beating the regular AC to inflict damage. Hence why casters can inflict touch spells when they use an unarmed strike. It hits the target for damage if it beats the regular AC.
The ability makes it so you take no damage. You cannot describe it as "he dodged the attack" or "he deflected it" since the target was hit. Deflection implies the target wasn't hit. The ability doesn't make you deflect attacks, it makes you immune. So the user becomes immune to the slashing/bludgeoning/etc damage of the weapon/spell/etc and gives you immunity against the other effects that come with it.

Immunity to fire never meant "deflecting the fire away". It means you take fire in the face and barely notice it. Fluff doesn't allow you to change what something does.


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Though I wonder if the immunity-breaking part of the Charisma drain would work. How's it worded?
It should. The counter gives an immunity to the weapon's ability drain, and "Even creatures immune to Ability Drain can be affected, but they gain a +5 bonus on their saves".
Otherwise it would be trying to play with words in saying that the immunity to ability drain it gets isn't an immunity to ability drain.

Quote
Anomander probably hasn't written it down yet.
It's in my sheet. Usually as written in the homebrew. I didn't make it.
It's the Essence Drain option of the Saga ability, from the Monster of Legend (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2723.0) template.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 29, 2016, 01:41:05 PM
It's in my sheet. Usually as written in the homebrew. I didn't make it.
That helps.
Though I wonder if the immunity-breaking part of the Charisma drain would work. How's it worded?
Quote from: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2723.0
Essence Drain- Choose one weapon of the Monster of Legend (may be a natural weapon) or its constriction if it has such ability. Every time the Monster of Legend hits an oponent with that weapon, it drains 1d8 from one stat chosen when this ability is gained (if Con is chosen, only 1d4 is drained). Attacks drain with each hit, Constriction drains each round the hold is maintained. A Fortitude Save (DC equals 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Highest Stat mod) can be made to avoid this drain effect. Even creatures immune to Ability Drain can be affected, but they gain a +5 bonus on their saves.  At 10 HD and every 5 HD thereafter, ability Drain increases one die size as if it was a weapon.
It only bypasses immunity to Ability Drain.

If you're immune to the attack or it misses for w/e reason (ac, miss chances, the alert spirit, etc) it doesn't work. In addition, stuff like Mettle are not immunity but would reduce it normally. Through I hve no idea how the counter works since google turns up nothing and the forum search, even at a claimed searching back 9,999 damage returns exactly two hits for "That will not work twice". Anomander seems to think it only grants Ability Drain immunity through so it could be buried inside that massive pile of Touhou stuff. It's utterly impossible to find any given Maneuver buried in there, spoilering it doesn't help, and no one has ever heard of the word "index". Hell, some entire Schools and PrCs are buried in Base Class threads because I guess homebrewers can only make a finite amount of threads in a subforum.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 01:51:59 PM
The maneuver is in here. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7164.0)

Quote
When initiating this counter, select one kind of weapon, a spell, a power, a maneuver, or a similar effect that you were struck by on the last round. You become fully immune to the chosen kind of attack for 1 minute.

It's perhaps the most specific immunity possible.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 29, 2016, 01:57:16 PM
Immunity to the weapon would prevent any carrier effects, no matter your (in)vulnerability to them, from hitting as well. It can also negate the Essence Drain if it so choose, sort of like how shoving a Spellcaster into an Antimagic Field makes everyone immune to his Scorching Fireball even through it's supposed to partially ignore Fire Resistance.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 02:32:37 PM
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Immunity to the weapon would prevent any carrier effects, no matter your (in)vulnerability to them, from hitting as well. It can also negate the Essence Drain if it so choose, sort of like how shoving a Spellcaster into an Antimagic Field makes everyone immune to his Scorching Fireball even through it's supposed to partially ignore Fire Resistance.
Indeed.
It makes it immune to the chosen type of attack/weapon. So it becomes immune to its ability drain.
I get what you mean. Though getting immune to everything dealt by a weapon doesn't change that the immunity includes immunity to its ability drain, which can be bypassed separately.
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Anomander seems to think it only grants Ability Drain immunity
No. I didn't address the other immunities covering everything dealt by the weapon since it is plain that the attack doesn't have an immunity bypass for the damage.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 02:36:58 PM
That requires that it be "immunity to ability drain and immunity to weapon damage and immunity to x but only for this attack". Rather than simply "immune to this one attack". Given that it's specific, whilst piercing the immunity is more general and the ability drain immunity more general still, it seems like the counter should trump other concerns.

Though it might need more clarification what the scope of the attack it applies to is and how secondary effects apply.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 03:04:56 PM
That would help and I agree that the way you see it makes sense but at the same it feels like it involves distorted logic.
It is the other way around, the immunity piercing effect is very specific, applies only to ability drain immunity, while the counter's immunity is very general.
Otherwise, what is a specific immunity for? Assuming you got it right:

Someone has an ability to bypass fire immunity and deal damage anyway.
If the counter was applied against an effect that only deals fire damage, the immunity bypass works.
If the counter was applied against a breath attack that deals fire damage and a slow effect, it doesn't bypass since it isn't fire damage anymore but a breath attack. So what you need is a breath immunity bypass instead.
If the counter is applied against a weapon that deals half piercing damage and half fire damage, the fire damage isn't bypassed since it does something else than fire damage/is not longer treated as fire damage but a weapon attack, so you what you need is weapon attack immunity bypass.

The fire immunity bypass normally works against fire immunity with all these cases, that it shouldn't work against this immunity-granting counter would be odd.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 03:08:17 PM
It's only odd because of assuming the individual components are being negated rather than the entirety of the thing. Immunity to the entire attack would end up with immunity to the immunity piercing effect, so... basically it's simplest to just go to "the whole attack doesn't work". Otherwise you could use this against a maneuver where the entire thing has "pierces immunity to mind-affecting" and the counter does nothing--even though it's not providing an immunity to mind-affecting, just the maneuver.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 03:24:12 PM
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Otherwise you could use this against a maneuver where the entire thing has "pierces immunity to mind-affecting" and the counter does nothing--even though it's not providing an immunity to mind-affecting, just the maneuver.
It wouldn't do nothing. It would give the user immunity against the mind-affecting effect, which then has a chance of being pierced. Usually granting +5 to the save. The counter effectively gave it the immunity that normally blocks the entire maneuver. If the initiator of the mind-affecting effect can bypass immunity, then the initiator who did the counter will know better next time.
And that's a good thing. The counter gives immunities. That's what immunity piercing effects were made for.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 03:44:04 PM
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Otherwise you could use this against a maneuver where the entire thing has "pierces immunity to mind-affecting" and the counter does nothing--even though it's not providing an immunity to mind-affecting, just the maneuver.
It wouldn't do nothing. It would give the user immunity against the mind-affecting effect, which then has a chance of being pierced. Usually granting +5 to the save. The counter effectively gave it the immunity that normally blocks the entire maneuver. If the initiator of the mind-affecting effect can bypass immunity, then the initiator who did the counter will know better next time.
And that's a good thing. The counter gives immunities. That's what immunity piercing effects were made for.

No, immunity piercing effects were made because of the existence of mindblank, specialisation in fireballs or whatever running into red dragons, undead that can cheerfully ignore half of the effects in the game, and similar situations where an ability is being shut down entirely at higher levels by a single word and entire concepts are left hanging.

The intent was not to counter something even more specific than they are. Specifically, this is a counter against spamming the same attack--which is something that piercing immunities makes more viable, awkwardly enough.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 29, 2016, 04:10:51 PM
Though getting immune to everything dealt by a weapon doesn't change that the immunity includes immunity to its ability drain, which can be bypassed separately.
That is false equivocation and by that logic, an AC of 9,000 which would make a creature virtually immune to your attacks which would also erroneously dubbed to immunity to your Ability Drain and therefor you do not need to actually hit anyone to trigger it.

Immunity piercing is not the same as guaranteed to always work. Even an invincible piston still relies on a dozen other parts to work and an engine and still stall or fail.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 04:17:04 PM
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That is false equivocation and by that logic, an AC of 9,000 which would make a creature virtually immune to your attacks which would also erroneously dubbed to immunity to your Ability Drain
Only if your logic doesn't make the difference between an immunity and forms of defenses that aren't immunities. Infinite AC isn't an immunity.  Being virtually or even in effect immune (the adjective) to something isn't necessarily an immunity (the special ability) to it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 29, 2016, 04:53:43 PM
Only if your logic doesn't make the difference between an immunity and forms of defenses that aren't immunities.
It's your logic not mine. Being immune to one effect isn't necessarily the same as being immune to another.

The ability, "Even creatures immune to Ability Drain can be affected", logically checks to see if a creature has immunity to Energy drain and is only concerned if it returns true. You however are posing a very bad illogical argument against the DM and his homebrew that it's checking for the word definition of "immunity" and in turn ignoring the fact it's keyed to checking for Ability Drain and not every other form of immunity you can think of.



In other news I have no idea how the mech became a mist but if it's using copypasta rules form Gaseous Form it lost all it's none-Force effects to AC. In other words it's armor, and I quote, has become "worthless". If it's some kind of living swarm thing, it even takes extra damage from area effects. Mechs btw can target a 1mu square of area and auto hit every none-mech thing smaller than it and a Mech's weapons are always treated as being a Force effect when beneficial. So what I'm shotgunning here is Ols needs some oddly specific rules why you can't blow the mist up before it retreats.

Personally, I went with capturing part of it. It's a little ambitious how well that'd actually work but when have I ever tried something easy?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 29, 2016, 05:19:36 PM
Soro, I think your mist assumption is wrong. Os edited his post after Amaterasu went and turned herself into a cloud/ mist of radiation, thus os edited to include any had escaped from being dragged away by the mob. The mob should not be in any intangible form atm if I read it correctly.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 29, 2016, 06:46:54 PM
Huh, I reread it and Anomander is the one turned into a mist.

Ok, I'll refix into nuking.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 29, 2016, 07:02:40 PM
First things first.

When Mao notices the first gunlash blow does not deal damage, does she want to retroactively switch to another weapon? Because if I'm not mistaken her Cha drain only applies to gunlashes.

And yes, the way it's worded now the Counter grants immunity and immunity-piercing effects would get through. I'll probably change the wording after this battle a bit since it's supposed to be anti-spam measure, but for now Mao's Cha drain would have a chance to get through.

Soro:
What's the range of your breath in natural form again? Because the marauder mob is moving at mecha speed, aka pretty fast.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 29, 2016, 07:36:54 PM
Define very fast because Kat is also at Mecha speeds right now and is required to chase down fleeing foes!

Escaping from Katherine is always taken as a challenge to outrun her ;)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 08:15:48 PM
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When Mao notices the first gunlash blow does not deal damage, does she want to retroactively switch to another weapon? Because if I'm not mistaken her Cha drain only applies to gunlashes.

And yes, the way it's worded now the Counter grants immunity and immunity-piercing effects would get through. I'll probably change the wording after this battle a bit since it's supposed to be anti-spam measure, but for now Mao's Cha drain would have a chance to get through.
Only if the first attack that hits drains charisma. Otherwise she'll estimate that it doesn't work. Unless her previous dealings with that counter led her to believe otherwise or that the marauder shows signs of trying to resist the fortitude save. Otherwise she'd just use other weapons and I'll roll the new damage rolls and give you the updated attack results for those weapons since the attack roll modifier is likely different.

Does the counter stacks with itself? Getting 1 minute long immunities every round or does it change the boost's current immunity? Mostly because then it soon because a matter of nullifying all your enemy's weapons than stopping spams. As is it certainly seems to stack with itself.

Doe the marauder mob's movement provoke an AoO from everyone that had it within reach? I'm not sure why only Kat has one.

Also, after moving, what is its distance from Mao?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 29, 2016, 08:44:25 PM
Define very fast because Kat is also at Mecha speeds right now and is required to chase down fleeing foes!

Escaping from Katherine is always taken as a challenge to outrun her ;)

Also, after moving, what is its distance from Mao?
Your characters don't know it since the mob went inside corridors that twist and turn quite a bit, but 290 mu.


Quote
When Mao notices the first gunlash blow does not deal damage, does she want to retroactively switch to another weapon? Because if I'm not mistaken her Cha drain only applies to gunlashes.

And yes, the way it's worded now the Counter grants immunity and immunity-piercing effects would get through. I'll probably change the wording after this battle a bit since it's supposed to be anti-spam measure, but for now Mao's Cha drain would have a chance to get through.
Only if the first attack that hits drains charisma. Otherwise she'll estimate that it doesn't work. Unless her previous dealings with that counter led her to believe otherwise or that the marauder shows signs of trying to resist the fortitude save. Otherwise she'd just use other weapons and I'll roll the new damage rolls and give you the updated attack results for those weapons since the attack roll modifier is likely different.
Makes the first save.

But you don't need to bother rolling new damage rolls because the Marauder Mob made itself immune to the maneuver and not the weapon.

Does the counter stacks with itself? Getting 1 minute long immunities every round or does it change the boost's current immunity? Mostly because then it soon because a matter of nullifying all your enemy's weapons than stopping spams. As is it certainly seems to stack with itself.
That's why you should carry back-up weapons and/or maneuvers that don't rely on weapons. Mecha shows always have the machines with plenty of toys. A giant robot system that rewards you for just having one uber weapon, now that would truly suck.

Doe the marauder mob's movement provoke an AoO from everyone that had it within reach? I'm not sure why only Kat has one.
Whitdraw action makes you count non-threatened at the start of the movement.  Katherine however had left her clone on an opposite position from herself so the mob has to go through one of them to exit the room.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 08:51:36 PM
And, to be fair, if you're at level 9 or above in single combat with someone, and can't manage 10 combinations of maneuvers and different weapons in this system, you probably went wrong somewhere in character creation. On top of having an opponent who's using every swift action they have to prevent you from repeating an attack.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 29, 2016, 08:57:55 PM
Soro: [/b] What's the range of your breath in natural form again? Because the marauder mob is moving at mecha speed, aka pretty fast.
Probably far to short. I hastily updated as I had to get out the door and missed the speed difference. It's ILx20 with a 120ft Move Action if needed which normally would produce a nearly inescapable 380ft range. But in mu scale, that's probably not a lot.

I guess I'll come up with something later like radio'ing for collection and rebuild.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 09:05:13 PM
380/5 ~ 63MU, if I remember the conversion correctly (30ft = 5 MU)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 09:05:59 PM
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But you don't need to bother rolling new damage rolls because the Marauder Mob made itself immune to the maneuver and not the weapon.
Then he is vulnerable to all of Mao's attacks as normal since she didn't use that maneuver last round. He is immune to Three Point Strike for 1 minute now though. Want to retroactively change it?
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Whitdraw action makes you count non-threatened at the start of the movement.  Katherine however had left her clone on an opposite position from herself so the mob has to go through one of them to exit the room.
Only the first 5-mu occupied square of threatened square, unless I missed something. The mob is massive and it passes through multiple threatened squares during the process since there's plenty of people within it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 29, 2016, 09:12:32 PM
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But you don't need to bother rolling new damage rolls because the Marauder Mob made itself immune to the maneuver and not the weapon.
Then he is vulnerable to all of Mao's attacks as normal since she didn't use that maneuver last round. He wasted his counter.
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Whitdraw action makes you count non-threatened at the start of the movement.  Katherine however had left her clone on an opposite position from herself so the mob has to go through one of them to exit the room.
Only the first 5-mu occupied square of threatened square, unless I missed something. The mob is massive and it passes through multiple threatened squares during the process since there's plenty of people within it.

Since mobs just need to occupy bordering squares, couldn't it retreat in such a pattern that everyone just moves directly out of threatened zones? We don't have a choke point.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on September 29, 2016, 09:14:35 PM
They sort of filled the entire room. That's a lot of threatened squares.

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And, to be fair, if you're at level 9 or above in single combat with someone, and can't manage 10 combinations of maneuvers and different weapons in this system, you probably went wrong somewhere in character creation. On top of having an opponent who's using every swift action they have to prevent you from repeating an attack.
I got plenty of combinations but it remains very strong since there is little to no means to stop it and it lasts pretty much the entire fight, rather than simply preventing you from using the same stuff every round, which would be what it would be doing if it lasted 1 round, it simply takes something out. Lasting one minute doesn't prevent spam, it just takes one option entirely out.

Choose an Ancient Temple user's youkai blades and most of his options just got taken out against that enemy for the entire fight. I'm all for that maneuver but I think 1 minute in a martial system that allows you to spam it every round is too strong. At that level and in general.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 29, 2016, 11:23:46 PM
Choose an Ancient Temple user's youkai blades and most of his options just got taken out against that enemy for the entire fight. I'm all for that maneuver but I think 1 minute in a martial system that allows you to spam it every round is too strong. At that level and in general.

It definitely shut me down last fight I had in a 1v1 situation.

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[That's why you should carry back-up weapons and/or maneuvers that don't rely on weapons. Mecha shows always have the machines with plenty of toys. A giant robot system that rewards you for just having one uber weapon, now that would truly suck.

Ancient Temple Moon Vanguard -_-'
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 30, 2016, 12:02:27 AM
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But you don't need to bother rolling new damage rolls because the Marauder Mob made itself immune to the maneuver and not the weapon.
Then he is vulnerable to all of Mao's attacks as normal since she didn't use that maneuver last round. He is immune to Three Point Strike for 1 minute now though. Want to retroactively change it?
Since otherwise it would be an illegal action, yes. Feel free to roll new damages then.

Quote
Whitdraw action makes you count non-threatened at the start of the movement.  Katherine however had left her clone on an opposite position from herself so the mob has to go through one of them to exit the room.
Only the first 5-mu occupied square of threatened square, unless I missed something. The mob is massive and it passes through multiple threatened squares during the process since there's plenty of people within it.

As Raineh pointed out, the mob can reshape itself. Baha no longer has mecha reach, Amaterasu is too busy bein invulnerable to everything (although I guess technically she would be projected out of the ship because she's ignoring its inertia as well but that would be kinda of dickish move and make the counter not very convenient as everything in the cosmos is moving one way or the other), and Mao specifically exited the mob.

Choose an Ancient Temple user's youkai blades and most of his options just got taken out against that enemy for the entire fight. I'm all for that maneuver but I think 1 minute in a martial system that allows you to spam it every round is too strong. At that level and in general.

It definitely shut me down last fight I had in a 1v1 situation.

Quote
[That's why you should carry back-up weapons and/or maneuvers that don't rely on weapons. Mecha shows always have the machines with plenty of toys. A giant robot system that rewards you for just having one uber weapon, now that would truly suck.

Ancient Temple Moon Vanguard -_-'

Heh, Ancient Temple still has damaging maneuvers that don't actually use the swords (like you did this turn), and you also had one of the prototype photon guns.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 30, 2016, 12:16:58 AM
I just assume that the initiator has enough awareness to stay within the nearest frame of reference rather than launching into superluminal acceleration in a random direction. Such as a planet or a ship with artificial gravity. Same deal as with an immovable rod. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on September 30, 2016, 12:25:58 AM
Quote
While in nuclear stasis you cannot act until it is your turn again but you also cannot be moved (even by gravity), altered or otherwise afflicted by any condition until then.

A ship can't carry you. A planet can't hold you.

In regular D&D cosmology there's however no planets, just immovable planes (some of which have non-directional gravity rules).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 30, 2016, 12:28:07 AM
Well, that doesn't specify suddenly getting zero momentum. So Amaterasu is fine for now. :lmao

It would actually be more problematic on a planet, where you'd suddenly have a straight trajectory into nowhere.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 30, 2016, 10:05:49 AM
You probably want to specify that "even by gravity" only applies insofar as "falling", because everything in space is constantly in motion. In the case of a planet, she might literally escape the atmosphere depending on how fast the planet is going and her initial position. And in a ship, well... if gravity doesn't work on her, and the walls that inevitably slam into her (because moving ship) count as forcible movement, she would go kinda like this.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 30, 2016, 01:04:22 PM
Oh hey, Railgun.

The maneuver doesn't specify sudden no momentum. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on September 30, 2016, 11:26:57 PM
Quote
When Mao notices the first gunlash blow does not deal damage, does she want to retroactively switch to another weapon? Because if I'm not mistaken her Cha drain only applies to gunlashes.
Only if the first attack that hits drains charisma. Otherwise she'll estimate that it doesn't work. Unless her previous dealings with that counter led her to believe otherwise or that the marauder shows signs of trying to resist the fortitude save. Otherwise she'd just use other weapons and I'll roll the new damage rolls and give you the updated attack results for those weapons since the attack roll modifier is likely different.

.....Does Mao have Quick Draw to do that after already started swinging with a weapon? -_-'



More importantly....Holy shit how'd the Mob use a Withdraw actions AND turn multiple (allegedly) corners! Legit jealous.
Edit: So if my AoO does hit, I just cut SOMETHING's Move speed in half. I'm going to assume it's the Mob's, as the Marauder has total cover. So the Marauder might get indirectly affected anyways if it doesn't want to leave the Mob I dunno :/
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 01, 2016, 03:22:48 AM
Katherine's attack misses.

Also Withdraw action does not demand to move in a straight line. That's only for Run.

Oh hey, Railgun.

The maneuver doesn't specify sudden no momentum. :lmao

It explicitly says you can't be moved.

The ship is moving everybody else around Ragol's orbit.

Just like the mob was trying to move you.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 01, 2016, 03:32:06 AM
So

Ridiculous
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 01, 2016, 04:15:08 AM
Yeah, maneuver's meant to only prevent falling.

Quote
Katherine's attack misses.
Perhaps it depends on whether Kath applied the +6 command bonus to attack rolls and if the Mob's AC and movement speeds got reduced by Mao's maneuver by failing a few Will saves.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 01, 2016, 04:50:33 AM
I have no idea what, if any floating buffs may be getting granted.

He also probably used Alert the same turn he Withdrew and I only had the 1 attack.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 04, 2016, 03:47:42 PM
This is the result of the rerolled damage and updated attack results.

69 atk ; 48 dmg
79 atk, nat 20 ; 51 dmg
75 atk ; 51 dmg
68 atk ; 48 dmg

Will DC 37 per attack that hits or have its AC reduced by 4 and its speed reduced by 10-mu for 1 round (cumulative, max AC reduction of 16).
Dmg ignores half DR/hardness
Bonus dmg if evil as usual. For the bonus evil dmg, does Mao know when it is applied? It would tell me if the target counts as evil though if you prefer rolling the extra damage for me I'm all for it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 04, 2016, 04:10:58 PM
For the bonus evil dmg, does Mao know when it is applied?
Probably not. If it's the same with Holy or the Monk's Strike, you have no idea unless the monster lets you know.

As part of leveling your WBL goes up, you could see about Detect Evil being ok'ed for Permanency and buy your self a scroll.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 04, 2016, 06:12:45 PM
I wouldn't have to since the bonus damage is applied whether I know if the target is evil or not. It is just a pain to roll it "just in case" and wonder if it is rolled for me when I do not do it. Right now feels ambiguous like a paladin smite; when it works, is the paladin aware?
Like a visual 'humph!' of holy light whenever it triggers.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 04, 2016, 06:16:35 PM
Isn't that what SorO said: it's applied and you have no idea?

I assumed that, like something with Smite, any visual component is apparent at all times. Much like flaming swords are always flaming, even if you're stabbing a red dragon.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 04, 2016, 06:26:08 PM
Very possible. Hence why I'm asking.
Contrary to a flaming weapon, however, the effect isn't always On. It triggers only when you hit a specific something. As if the weapon suddenly deals the fire damage... but it doesn't mention visually bursting into flames as it hits so you're not sure if it dealt fire damage. No fire wound or anything to indicate if it worked.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 04, 2016, 07:58:32 PM
Basically it's like "better safe than sorry" as Os isn't likely to track kinds of specific bonus damage depending on X. Just keep rolling it and labeling it *shrugs*
Doesn't seem like that big a deal if it applies or not
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 05, 2016, 01:01:02 PM
Right now feels ambiguous like a paladin smite; when it works, is the paladin aware? Like a visual 'humph!' of holy light whenever it triggers.
Technically he isn't.

HP/Damage are metagame and you do not know you're opponent's HP without Spells nor do you know their DR/Immunities without Knowledge Checks and Smite Evil has no noted manifestation. You need a form of feedback, be it in game and the DM makes the monster visually or audibly respond (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEvCspZcwZc), or some kind of Spell that provides feedback. Like if the Paladin can spare the Standard Action he'd know if attempting to Smite would work or not thanks to Detect Evil. Think of it like the Oots comic, number 62 to be exact (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 05, 2016, 03:01:02 PM
That's what I thought.

Back in my tabletop days, when I had an holy weapon, I never rolled the 2d6 at every swing - the DM told me to roll the holy damage dice.
Which is a clear indicator that I'm attacking something evil. When it hits something that isn't evil, the damage dice just aren't rolled.

I'm not going to roll both 1d8 and 2d6 for every attack in case they are evil undead/outsiders/evil of another type.
The ability is not to apply that damage every attack and everything that isn't evil or evil outsider/undead isn't affected. They are rolled only when those targets are hit. My question is only who is to roll it.
If it is me, then he'll have to tell me to roll. If it isn't he'll have to remember to roll it for me.

If he prefers to roll it himself to keep it a secret, though, that's fine by me. I only want to know which one it is.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 05, 2016, 03:24:01 PM
Lol the DM don't have to roll it. Like I'd be all if you aren't gonna roll it regardless then their isn't any extra damage done regardless :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 05, 2016, 03:34:38 PM
You'd be surprised how much a DM has to roll in secret. He's technically supposed to roll a lot of Spot/Listen checks that are reactionary.
Otherwise it is like saying: "Careful guys, there is something to watch out for". Or maybe we should always be rolling Spot/Listen every round just in case there is something. Otherwise we never perceive anything.

You'd require people to roll two extra set of dice every attack just in case they may apply despite the way an ability is written? I'll keep that in mind.
I'm already taking extra time to save him time in keeping track of the results of all my rolls. If I have to take even more just because the homebrew is written in a way that "requires a wasting time or face the ability not doing anything because lazy" then I'll roll the damage every attack but save the extra time elsewhere.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 05, 2016, 03:50:16 PM
Back in my tabletop days, when I had an holy weapon, I never rolled the 2d6 at every swing - the DM told me to roll the holy damage dice.
Yeah but that's sort of different.

Changes for convenience are pretty typical. Like take Ols's Initiative, no matter how poor our bonuses are as long as one guy rolls high we all go first. On his end it's easier to handle all of the PCs turns as one deal and all of the monster's turns as one deal with an all to often minor change here and there for AoOs. Comparatively we would have to wait for say Kuro to post, then Ketro to post, then Ols to post, then me, then Anomander, then Ols, etc. It's really not that feasible.

On the same token, your DM gave you metagame knowledge when to add your holy damage in and not so he didn't have to roll or even calculate it (I dealt 14 or 21 with holy!). And that truly was metagame knowledge, your PC should not act on it but you probably got away with it much like your typical player doesn't act surprised over a Kobold or knows to check the ceiling even through they probably have zero adventuring experience (actually you are pretty bad at exploiting metagame knowledge anyway). I've been with a group where AC is a known value because the players were trusted to calculate out their own attack & damage each turn, hell we even rolled all of our attacks and damage at once using color coded dice. It was one of the fastest methods of handling combat I've done.

But they are changes built on convenience which are unneeded. I'd personally roll it and just let Ols know and leave it at that. I do that already with several things, like do I ask to roll my fire damage or if the creature is immune to fire? No, it's a like a few seconds to type it out and repaste it a half dozen times. It does put figuring out the total on Ols but he seems to handle it mostly fine. I mean I do feel like he skips miss chances given there is never any flavor of missing me and I could take damage but I'll be on him to check those pretty soon anyway *wink wink*.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 06, 2016, 11:54:14 AM
@Ols, why is there no HP Regen Arsenal?

You've made it so Super Robot's Regeneration (both hp and energy) upgrades cannot be taken with Hyperdimensional Storage to prevent stacking regenerations. But Arsenal only offers energy regeneration to begin with. Intentional weapons/armor/cc/ton_of_buff_choices or nothing but hp_regen or "oops forgot it"?

Edit
Also, level up is incoming. Anyone want some help with their sheet? Mao is our strongest which makes a great excuse for piling in anything you like at least up to his figures. Stuff like 350hp, immunity to magic (srsly, even supernatural abilities), all energy damage so you have to deal with his 50 DR, and so on for his defense. For offense well he deals 550+ damage and can drain 35 Charisma each round as well as ignoring a lot of immunities.

So by all means, don't feel guilty if you're avoiding something shiny because you think it's too powerful for a normal tabletop. Be the Gohan that stops holding back to save the planet.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 06, 2016, 02:41:21 PM
Well, I have that 30k meseta from the dragon I never spent -_-'
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 06, 2016, 02:44:20 PM
I think I'll keep being straightforward.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 06, 2016, 05:38:26 PM
Well, I have that 30k meseta from the dragon I never spent -_-'
Well Ols does want us to stick to WBL so now is a good time to resync on your end. Plus that 30k is like half of the amount you could have gained moving from lv12 to lv14 anyway so it really sounds like you never moved up to your level 13 gear. Plus you should have stuff form the springs and w/e this little ordeal might offer to finish things out.

Most of the combat is handled through the Mech stuff or Maneuvers and I don't have a degree in Touhou Homebrew to suggest much but some defensive upgrades are always nice. Why don't you look into the Martial Items that teach new Maneuvers, like if you already know a White Raven Maneuver (due to prereqs) it only costs 3k to buy a Crown with White Raven Tactics. You could also buy any armbands or robe and per MiC apply armor-related enhancement bonuses to it. +1 Vengeful costs 8k and gives you a +2 moral bonus to Saves against harmful effects and a +2 moral bonus to attack & damage against anyone that tried to harm you within the previous round. And Minor Schemas can be pretty nice, like one of Superior Resistance provides a +6 Resistance Bonus to Saves for 24 hours (enough time the schema will be recharged) and it only costs 1,400gp more than a Cloak of Resistance +5.

I think I'll keep being straightforward.
The new upgrades leave more room open for offense even if you focus on defense so you might consider looking into mech weapons.

Like Growthx3 & Transform(tank) give you 3d6+DexMod cannons, take Paired and Mightyx8 and you can spend 8 energy to give them +16 damage and fire both of your Built-Ins per Attack Action. At a low 14 Dex you're looking at 171 damage vs DRx6. As far as 4th level Arsenal goes, the Anti Ship Sword isn't even a Beam-type weapon and being lv3 you can buy two and Link them. Then in Mech Combat Basics Heavy melee is stated to deal x2.5 Strength. So at your 37 Str you can deal 9d12+32 per hit for 181 on average and that's without looking into any upgrades (which you'll probably want to look into battery/reactor at least). It exceeds Divine Flame's averages for now (mega flare@10int & custom +10 comp item deals avg 98, ten suns @ +10con deals 125, cld6s deals 45.5, etc.) and Power weapons partially ignore AC, and there are some Rending weapons too which partially ignore DR too.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 06, 2016, 08:05:43 PM
The only reason I hadn't had armor before was because the nanoarmor takes up that slot, and Im kind of stupid to not realize "oh hey, I could still do armor special abilities!" -_-'

I've also literally never looked at schemas and have no idea how they work.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 06, 2016, 08:14:58 PM
Oh yeah, when I'm rebuilding the mecha I'll put more effort into offence rather than my prior "stack all of a few upgrades". I'm not going to hang around dealing with cannons or anything, though--the concept still holds that any ranged attack is the pilot messing with nuclear fusion rather than anything else.

Probably going to add Sentient back in, given the size scales and relative durabilities.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 06, 2016, 10:00:38 PM
I've also literally never looked at schemas and have no idea how they work.
Really?

They are also the precursor to Eternal Wands and are pretty much "Eternal Scrolls". They are once per day Spell Completion items that have all the limitations of Scrolls except the skip the Minimum Ability Score check when UMDing and since they are never Arcane based, even if the creator was, there is no chance of Arcane Spell Failure. They do carry an extra downside of locking you out for 1d6 days for a failed activation through. They are also the only way for a non-Artificer to access Infusions in short of the alternative effects of the Wish-like Spells and they scale up to 6th level. Cost is relatively cheap, it's [Spell Level x Caster Level x 400] and comparatively Wands use a x750 multiplier instead. This rebreaks down to...
1st: 400gp.
2nd: 2,400gp.
3rd: 6,000gp.
4th: 11,200gp.
5th: 18,000gp.
6th: 26,400gp.

The most powerful usage of them is to pick the Metamagic Item or Item Alteration Infusions which places several low level persisted buffs within the realms of non-casters provided they took Persist Spell (it has no caster requirements) or casters having Ability Scores in the hundreds for short bursts. And Ols is pretty open to you Persisting things too, through some Spells are banned, given the high nature of optimization. In a much more tame fashion through, you can look up any long duration buffs such as Superior Resistance, Primal Instinct, Heart of X, Greater Mage Armor, Venomfire, etc, and pick them up relatively cheap. And of course you could buy ones with Spells that handle problem solving or blasting if need be. They really are nice items and worth looking into.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 06, 2016, 10:07:17 PM
What book are they from? I've never used them, so I can't recall.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 06, 2016, 11:03:57 PM
Magic of Eberron on page 122.

Through Etch Schema (the crafting feat) on page 47 is here you get the crafting formula if you want higher CL'ed items.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 06, 2016, 11:17:15 PM
So you have to UMD schemas?
Not really a class skill :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 07, 2016, 12:48:14 AM
So you have to UMD schemas?
Not really a class skill :p
That just means you'll have to spend more to buy up some UMD bonuses :p

The Use Magic Device Skill contains it's own specific Use Scroll entry that applies to all other Spell Completion Items, you need to make a Check for the Minimum Ability Score which Schemas specifically do not have, and the UMD Check against the Caster Level. One Check means it's easy to abuse.
1. Spend a whole 2 Skill Points on it next level to gain one Rank, then 50gp on a Masterwork Tool (core).
2. Buy a Wand of Guidance of the Avatar (4,500gp).
* The DC to Activate A Wand is a flat 20 and as long as you do not roll a Natural 1 you can retry.
* At 10 Charisma the outcomes are 5% lockout (n1), 20% success (17 meets dc), & 75% retry.
* In other words, the eventual outcome is 20% lockout vs 80% success.
* Assuming success your next UMD Check gains a +20 Competence Bonus.
3. UMD the Schema, a 6th level Spell has a DC of 31, you have 1d20+24 or 65% chance of success.
* Total chance of this actually working is only 52% through with a hefty 1d6 day lock out for that 48% chance of failure.

But every single point of UMD bonus you can obtain above that improves your odds of success and you can always aim for lower level Spells. Like using two Drow Helsiana House Insignias, one of Share Talents and the other Unity Wine, let's you high five me and gain up to +3 to UMD Checks for something like an 86% chance the Wand will work instead of locking you out for 24 hours. Buy two Wands and heck you can even try some more if you fail. And if your first Schema is the Skill Enhancement Infusion, circumstantial bonuses stack, you can't fail it and it gives another +2 to UMD. The total cost to bring your UMD up comes out to 10,170gp but you'll end up with 1d20+9 (9% chance of lockout and you have two wands to try) vs DC 20 & 1d20+29 vs DC 31 (90% success) for 6ths. And that's at just a single Rank attempting to buff something how powerful as Superior Resistance and the Skill buffs last for almost an hour so you can keep going and pile on some other Schemas.

Maybe if you politely asked Ols to retrain some Skill Points now that you've seen the light of how UMD is pretty much a required Skill for optimizers you can skip all the extra buffing too.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 07, 2016, 12:51:47 AM
We could also try to refrain from an internal arms race given how much rocket tag we already have...
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 07, 2016, 01:03:11 AM
Quote
Maybe if you politely asked Ols to retrain some Skill Points now that you've seen the light of how UMD is pretty much a required Skill for optimizers you can skip all the extra buffing too.

Heheh, extra buffing...Been doing this whole game so far without real buffs  :rolleyes

I'll think about it. I'm currently trying to figure how to deal with my mecha stuff first as that is the entirety of my character's offense and I need to mull over Super Robot upgrades again as I'm likely to be sacrificing my Arsenal. Mainly cause, like you pointed out, no HP Regen Arsenal option, but also cause the Great One upgrades scale pretty nicely on size and my nanoarmor is like Gargantuan or some shit~


Edit: I apparently had a "To Buy" list on my character sheet but I'm iffy on the needed-ness of the stuff...Like a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, or whatever a Shadowstealer's Cloak is..... Nevermind this stuff is garbage for me right now haha. Had to look em up but yeah.

Haha, I want a Retributive Amulet :P

Edit2: Can you buy Intelligent Items? Os? Can I buy an Intelligent Item?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 07, 2016, 02:40:25 AM
We could also try to refrain from an internal arms race given how much rocket tag we already have...
If your buffs are designed to try and keep you alive it's literately the exact opposite of rocket tag.

Haha, I want a Retributive Amulet :P
MiC nerfed it to 3/day, requires an Immediate Action, and no bonus to Saves. But it's like 47,000gp cheaper too so that was pretty nice.

Also  I just noticed my familiars gain their own mechs and the wording is a little wonky and suggestive the co-mechs get their own Arsenal weapons, but in this game where Ols murders everything in one hit risking 2,800xp at level 14 just to try and squeeze some damage in is probably like asking to delevel.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on October 07, 2016, 08:42:52 AM
Hey SorO, remind me which item(s) will let me teleport as an immediate action outta range?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 07, 2016, 09:56:17 AM
This is the result of the rerolled damage and updated attack results.

69 atk ; 48 dmg
79 atk, nat 20 ; 51 dmg
75 atk ; 51 dmg
68 atk ; 48 dmg

Will DC 37 per attack that hits or have its AC reduced by 4 and its speed reduced by 10-mu for 1 round (cumulative, max AC reduction of 16).
Dmg ignores half DR/hardness

One failed save, mob still standing but moves 20 mu less.

Katherine still misses her aoo.

Bonus dmg if evil as usual. For the bonus evil dmg, does Mao know when it is applied? It would tell me if the target counts as evil though if you prefer rolling the extra damage for me I'm all for it.
Mao wouldn't know that just from such a weapon property. Unless she faced an evil and non-evil marauder with all other stats equal and noticed it's killing the evil one 17% faster.

I wouldn't have to since the bonus damage is applied whether I know if the target is evil or not. It is just a pain to roll it "just in case" and wonder if it is rolled for me when I do not do it. Right now feels ambiguous like a paladin smite; when it works, is the paladin aware?
Like a visual 'humph!' of holy light whenever it triggers.
That reminds me of the Overlord series where the main protagonist is an elder lich that one time puts on a special protection from holy spell but still screams and pretends to flinch when hit by holy damage so his opponent think it's super effective. And when hit by fire damage that he is actually vulnerable to he acts like it was nothing to pretend he's immune.


@Ols, why is there no HP Regen Arsenal?

You've made it so Super Robot's Regeneration (both hp and energy) upgrades cannot be taken with Hyperdimensional Storage to prevent stacking regenerations. But Arsenal only offers energy regeneration to begin with. Intentional weapons/armor/cc/ton_of_buff_choices or nothing but hp_regen or "oops forgot it"?
Auto-Regenerating mechas is almost exclusive super robot territory, that's why there's no arsenal option for it.

Making hyperdimensional storage mutually exclusive with the regenerating upgrades wasn't to prevent stacking of regen from both sides, it was simply because they were all auto-picks for any super-robot build and this way enforces choice instead of "meh, just take it all".


Edit2: Can you buy Intelligent Items? Os? Can I buy an Intelligent Item?
As long as you pay the price in the SRD. Or re-train a feat to geta monster class version pet.



Haha, I want a Retributive Amulet :P
MiC nerfed it to 3/day, requires an Immediate Action, and no bonus to Saves. But it's like 47,000gp cheaper too so that was pretty nice.

Also  I just noticed my familiars gain their own mechs and the wording is a little wonky and suggestive the co-mechs get their own Arsenal weapons, but in this game where Ols murders everything in one hit risking 2,800xp at level 14 just to try and squeeze some damage in is probably like asking to delevel.
Which reminds me, your mecha just broke, where are your familiars right now? :smirk
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 07, 2016, 11:58:50 AM
Sorry Ketaro. Maybe your attack was indeed Alert'd if an effective 58 that ignores half the AC of a bunch of stuff isn't enough. Only if my C-25 could make an AoO first, perhaps, since it was at the entrance of the room and was still within the mob. Otherwise it is indeed getting away. I'll assume it is.

Quote
Mao wouldn't know that just from such a weapon property. Unless she faced an evil and non-evil marauder with all other stats equal and noticed it's killing the evil one 17% faster.
Fair enough though the real question was whether the class ability requires that the player rolls both kinds of dice (one for potential evil and another for potential evil outsider/undead) ever attack or if you'd be doing it in secret since you if something is an evil, outsider/under or otherwise.

Quote
That reminds me of the Overlord series
An absolutely valid strategy given some bluff checks. Looking unaffected by pain isn't a common talent while looking in pain is deadpan easy.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 07, 2016, 12:06:32 PM
Which reminds me, your mecha just broke, where are your familiars right now? :smirk
Probably chillaxing at home with their armed to the teeth minibots scaring away solicitors because someone is too cheap to buy the 11k belt to carry them around like pokemon.

I have four of them and I was thinking Dragon Rangers Megazord there for a moment with an ultrazord configuration. They could all equip Chakram Caster x2 and take advantage of my uber strength for 3d8+22, x2 for linked, x3 for BAB, x4 for the number of minibots, and that comes out to 852 damage (which is subjected to DRx24, so barely 370ish dmg). But then again the first hit they take would break the mech, the second killing it, followed by the next thirty seven shots killing everyone else. So I'm pretty sure the best they can try to do is successfully deter Jenova's witnesses.

Hey SorO, remind me which item(s) will let me teleport as an immediate action outta range?
It's probably the...
Quote from: Drow of the Underdark, page 101
SHADOW CLOAK
Price (Item level): 5,500 gp (10th)
Body Slot: Shoulders
Caster Level: 12th
Aura: Strong; (DC 21) conjuration, illusion
Activation: — and immediate (command)
Weight: 1 lb.
This black cloak writhes as if it were alive.
A shadow cloak grants a +1 deflection bonus to AC.
If you are attacked, you can use the cloak three times per day to produce one or the other of the following effects. You can gain concealment for 1 round, or you can teleport to a space you can see clearly up to 10 feet in any direction.
Prerequisite: Craft Wondrous Item, blur, dimension hopPH2, mage armor.
Cost to Create: 2,750 gp, 220 XP, 6 days.
Which is more of out of melee range, you'll still have to find something for ranged. Like Friendly Fire (no ranged attack roll succeeds against you).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on October 07, 2016, 12:53:47 PM
Huh, I was thinking of the Anklet of Translocation, but that's even better.

I have a relevant question. The Black Market is at the cargo holds, right?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 07, 2016, 05:00:07 PM
Huh, I was thinking of the Anklet of Translocation, but that's even better.
Those are a Swift Action which limits them to your turn only so yeah the cloak is pretty nice :)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 07, 2016, 10:36:00 PM
Quote
As long as you pay the price in the SRD. Or re-train a feat to geta monster class version pet.

Yeah thats the thing, I spent awhile looking and never found any pricing.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 07, 2016, 11:10:03 PM
Yeah thats the thing, I spent awhile looking and never found any pricing.
o.O

Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm
Two at 19, one at 10
Speech, telepathy
Four lesser powers and three greater powers
120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing
+15,000 gp
Quote from: Same page under Intelligent Item Lesser Powers
Item has 10 ranks in Spellcraft +5,000 gp
Quote from: Same page under Intelligent Item Greater Powers
Item can use haste on its owner 3/day +16,000 gp
Quote from: Same page under Intelligent Item Dedicated Powers
Item can cast 10d6 lightning bolt +60,000 gp
etc.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 07, 2016, 11:21:16 PM
Right, SRD. I was on the poorly formatted wiki. Just clicking the crap that came up in google search rather than looking for the good stuff.

Boooo, I was hoping I could make getting UMD easier by just having the item have it  :lmao
This skill selection sucks. Whatever, I'll eventually figure out what to do with my money.

Edit: DAMNIT KETARO!
UMD is a class skill and I never put points in it  :banghead
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 08, 2016, 12:14:48 AM
Quote
A mecha can only change size by taking the super robot growth upgrade or some other ability that explicitly allows a mecha/ship to change its size. This includes a mecha ignoring abilities of its Pilot such as powerful build.
Does this mean that the stance Oni Crowd "Imp Swarm" cannot be used with a mecha since it requires that your size changes?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 08, 2016, 12:17:57 AM
Quote
A mecha can only change size by taking the super robot growth upgrade or some other ability that explicitly allows a mecha/ship to change its size. This includes a mecha ignoring abilities of its Pilot such as powerful build.
Does this mean that the stance Oni Crowd "Imp Swarm" cannot be used with a mecha since it requires that your size changes?

This seems set to be one of the most redundant questions ever.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 08, 2016, 12:39:11 AM
This seems set to be one of the most redundant questions ever.
How do you think we hit three threads so far anyway?

Edit: DAMNIT KETARO!
UMD is a class skill and I never put points in it  :banghead
*polite cough*
Ols already offered up the ability to retrain a Feat just to help you gain a new pet and he probably figured your goal is UMDing some stuff. Just come out and ask if you can trade some Skill Points around. You will never make a Jump Check with flight so there is ten Ranks to spare. You can trim Tumble down too, the DC is 25 to move full-speed without provoking AoOs and you have a +26 modifier letting you cut two Ranks out if it without even incurring a chance of failure. Search at 4 isn't even worth having, and there ya go 16 Ranks for UMD. Next level you can put another Rank in it, your Profession (for maneuvers?), and still have one left to spare I think.

Masterwork Tool will take you to +19 and a Natural 1 beats DC 20 so it doesn't fail and you have no chance of ever being locked out of a Wand which also means with a decent Skill increasing Spell (guidance, divine insight, improvisation, sadism, masochism, etc) you won't fail using a Schema either.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 08, 2016, 12:44:18 AM
This seems set to be one of the most redundant questions ever.
How do you think we hit three threads so far anyway?

By getting sidetracked over ambiguity. Not by "does this thing that obviously doesn't fit the one exception somehow fit the exception".
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 08, 2016, 01:22:38 AM
Quote
This seems set to be one of the most redundant questions ever.
It wasn't really a question. More of a chance observation in case it may be relevant.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 08, 2016, 01:58:32 AM
Gosh, thank you Soro. Sometimes I really have no idea what I'm doing with my characters -_-'


@Os: Since I was already going to ask to retrain 1 feat when we hit 14, could I fix up some skill points as well? >.>
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 08, 2016, 04:52:55 AM
I have a relevant question. The Black Market is at the cargo holds, right?
Somebody remembers the fluff bits yay!

Quote
A mecha can only change size by taking the super robot growth upgrade or some other ability that explicitly allows a mecha/ship to change its size. This includes a mecha ignoring abilities of its Pilot such as powerful build.
Does this mean that the stance Oni Crowd "Imp Swarm" cannot be used with a mecha since it requires that your size changes?

A valid question, however I've ruled that since it's not actually your mecha changing sizes but production of new copies, then it works.

@Os: Since I was already going to ask to retrain 1 feat when we hit 14, could I fix up some skill points as well? >.>

Yes.

Although I would prefer if players focused on finishing this battle before preparing to level up.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 08, 2016, 04:58:00 AM
Well as far as I know, isn't it your turn?

Or who are we still waiting on?

Edit: Oh, Anomander needs to go.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 08, 2016, 12:51:05 PM
Edit: Oh, Anomander needs to go.
Yep. It's taken a week's worth of questions for him to try and rulesmonger some kind of advantage and he still hasn't posted.
Although I would prefer if players focused on finishing this battle before preparing to level up.
To be fair, most of us are focused on the battle. You even got four replies on the same day as the update which is amazingly good for what I've come to expect out of pbps. But we have also had enough free time to ask other questions too.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 08, 2016, 02:10:35 PM
Quote
A valid question, however I've ruled that since it's not actually your mecha changing sizes but production of new copies, then it works.
You're entitled to the ruling, though that's not what I'm reading.
Quote
While you are in this stance you become tiny sized (ability scores don't change, favored discipline weapon damage remain unchanged) and multiply in 16 copies of yourself of this new size
It is an effect on the initiator, so the ability cannot translate to the mecha. If you bypass the size change and keep the rest anyway, then you use a restriction meant to avoid size abuses on mecha to make a size abuse on a mecha, and so cheat your own intents.
It also feels like it betrays your concept of the mob in that fashion, since you created it in the spirit of making it possible to keep a group of weak creatures threatening and allow something strong to make a mob of itself.

Quote
Yep. It's taken a week's worth of questions for him to try and rulesmonger some kind of advantage and he still hasn't posted.
Concerned that things are going as they should, which is kind of important since if Kath's attack slowed it down then you would all have to re-do your actions since it may not be so far away.
Speaking of which, perhaps you should have used that time yourself to get some questions answered, such as what you guys see after turning the first corner, if anything. That kinda determines what you can then do with the rest of your actions.
The room is a cube whose dimensions are about 300-ft / 50 mu, and it left. It went out at 290 mu. (270 mu now)
You "moved up to 120ft (20 mu) if it'd make a difference". The mob could be gone through the corridor, took a turn, went through another room... a few times. With so much stuff moving it fortunately shouldn't be too hard to track where it went since a robotic mob probably leaves quite a track behind itself. But is there anything for you to target after your movement?  Would you like to revise your standard action if there is nothing? Your turn probably isn't really over and you're waiting until Osle posts the next turn to find out?
Kath is double moving up to 300 Mu after the mob and since she was already in the mob and it had to waste 75 mu (since it filled the upper reaches too) to completely leave the room that makes it about 45-85 mu away from her with a single move action. Can she spot it with a single move action? That'd give her something else to do with a standard action.
Kind of important stuff to know.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 08, 2016, 03:27:29 PM
Concerned that things are going as they should, which is kind of important since if Kath's attack slowed it down then you would all have to re-do your actions since it may not be so far away.
Why would I revise it? Until the mech stops moving, which would be when it's hidden in a fortress, Bahamut can't keep up.

Speaking of which, perhaps you should have used that time yourself to get some questions answered,
We already asked the questions we didn't know the answers to which is kind of the point. And then we moved on to other questions.

A. It went out at 290 mu. (270 mu now)
B. The mob could be gone through the corridor, took a turn, went through another room... a few times.
C. Kath is double moving up to 300 Mu after the mob
D. Can she spot it with a single move action? That'd give her something else to do with a standard action.
This in short summery describes everything that's wrong and why it takes you two weeks to make a single post based on Mao knowing everything in the OOC thread. You and Kath are supposed to act at the same time and Mao only knows what Kath's character tells her. Which may, or may not, come after the DM tells her the results of Kath's character's actions which cannot be resolved until you finally post something or everyone throws in the towel and skips you. But rather than Mao chasing after her or the mech and learning the results, you're off wasting five other people's time trying to time hop to use metagame information you shouldn't have to begin with for essentially pathetic reasons.

If something important comes out after Mao rounds the corner then it'll become relevant then, but you need to get at least that far in the first place.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 08, 2016, 04:06:08 PM
If I wanted to do something else contingent on seeing it within a single move action, I would have. But right now I'm not as concerned with killing it as I am with keeping up with something likely no one else here can, and which is damn close to outrunning me.

Kath is not a tactician.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 08, 2016, 04:36:08 PM
I could keep up if not dazed! XD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 08, 2016, 05:16:11 PM
Quote
Why would I revise it? Until the mech stops moving, which would be when it's hidden in a fortress, Bahamut can't keep up.
Because right now you're likely Mega Flaring nothing (you're not saying what it is used on, there being no obvious enemy target). Nor are you stating where you are moving, though we're assuming you are going after it.
Unless expending maneuvers at empty air is part of your strategy. By all means.

Quote
This in short summery describes everything that's wrong and why it takes you two weeks to make a single post based on Mao knowing everything in the OOC thread.
We're supposed to get all that based on Kath's turn alone. If she communicates that information to the rest of the group, it forces us to act on it after she did, not before to keep things linear. Your move action could perhaps get you around the corner, and so you would also see what's there, if anything (probably enemy warriors if anything). This is why I myself usually note my actions and what is pending to complete the turn, based on the result of how my other actions are resolved.

Quote
You and Kath are supposed to act at the same time
Wrong. We take our turns in whichever order we want. I've had similar scouting done for the party myself, which you all benefited from. This very fight I kept you all updated on things as they happened, which could be use on your turn on the same round.
The combined initiative only makes it so that we all decide our actions together instead of in turn, you know, for teamwork? I've posted before to have things done before your characters acted, such as going into the next room ahead of the group so that Mao would take the shots readied at whoever would next come in. Because I already knew from my drones inside and from previous experiences that it was going to happen.
Quote
Mao only knows what Kath's character tells her. Which may, or may not, come after the DM tells her the results of Kath's character's actions which cannot be resolved until you finally post something
Wrong again. You clearly do not understand how turns are done. When you go around a corner, you know what's there on your turn, not on the enemy's turn. That's nonsense and not how we've handled it before. If you'd remembered.

Quote
Kath is not a tactician.
Maybe but there are important details to communicate for your actions.
You want to make a double move even if you see it after one; fine - now where are you going?
You're running after the mob, but remember that there is no map. You end your movement within melee reach? Farther in case it takes a 30-ft/5-mu step to get you into its space? Far enough to make a ranged attack next turn? It lacks crucial precision.


Edit: Actually, I'll have us know what's ahead and maybe spare some of us useless actions. If there are Arcas warriors in the next room waiting we may want to shoot them down on the way.
If Soro wants, I can have Mao give Baham a lift into the battlefield to save him a round or three of moves.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 08, 2016, 05:43:03 PM
He went! YEAHEEEEE

If Soro wants, I can have Mao give Baham a lift into the battlefield to save him a round or three of moves.
I'll pass. The mech, that can kill us all in a single action, is going to radio ahead and lead you into a trap anyway and you have less than half the party.

I'll track it later, after interrogating the rioters that Kuro already caught so maybe we can get the drop on the mech before someone climbs into it. What's it going to do, fly off in space? Hardly, it's going to hang out here on the station.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 08, 2016, 05:57:32 PM
As gung-ho as _I_ am, it'd take until next round for me to get a move action. If there's even space for a Gargantuan mecha to pursue at that point... :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 08, 2016, 06:06:52 PM
Quote
Who cares? Really, that's an honest question seeing how it's my action and your concern isn't relative.
As I said, by all means.

Quote
But not around the corner after that,
One corner at a time, fella. Chill.

Quote
I mean you haven't spent ten pages asking Ols to rule on it for you,
You guys filled them by trying to answer questions that weren't addressed to you. If filling the OOC bothers you nothing forces you to contribute to it. I'm not complaining.

Quote
but one would think teamwork starts with helping the other five people at the table top
You're probably having awareness issues.

Quote
instead of selfishly wasting everyone's time.
Clarifying to make sure Ketaro' attack hits isn't a waste of time. It could have resulted to our common great benefit.
Wondering if the Cha drain applies (which it does) could have potentially ended the fight right there, to our common great benefit.
Wondering if the enemy is under a mob form it is not supposed to be able to assume is important. It could have made the difference between you having a mecha and seeing it destroyed. Having a mob enemy doesn't concern me much but I am aware it is quite a handful for you guys.
I can keep up with it myself, so whether it is slowed or not isn't a concern either, though it can be an important details for the rest of the team. Such as you.

Considering we often have a month between updates anyway, I'd say PbP time isn't much of an issue unless you yourself have got nothing else to do.

Quote
I'll pass. The mech, that can kill us all in a single action, is going to radio ahead and lead you into a trap anyway and you have less than half the party.
All right.

Quote
As gung-ho as _I_ am, it'd take until next round for me to get a move action. If there's even space for a Gargantuan mecha to pursue at that point... :lmao
The corridors are 30-ft high/wide. Your space is 120-ft. You unfortunately cannot squeeze at half speed without some slick Escape Artist skill checks. Maybe going out and recalling it would be required short of... you know... making an entrance. Nothing new.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 08, 2016, 09:26:16 PM
Although I would prefer if players focused on finishing this battle before preparing to level up.
To be fair, most of us are focused on the battle. You even got four replies on the same day as the update which is amazingly good for what I've come to expect out of pbps. But we have also had enough free time to ask other questions too.
Oh, that's quite true now that you mention it. Yes it's actually pretty good by PbP standards.  :blush

Quote
A valid question, however I've ruled that since it's not actually your mecha changing sizes but production of new copies, then it works.
You're entitled to the ruling, though that's not what I'm reading.
Quote
While you are in this stance you become tiny sized (ability scores don't change, favored discipline weapon damage remain unchanged) and multiply in 16 copies of yourself of this new size
It is an effect on the initiator, so the ability cannot translate to the mecha. If you bypass the size change and keep the rest anyway, then you use a restriction meant to avoid size abuses on mecha to make a size abuse on a mecha, and so cheat your own intents.
Meh, no, since the original problem was mechas getting stupidly big (or stupidly small). But the stance only allows you to go between large and colossal (and that last one at pretty high level), and only comes online by 11th level, there's no going out of scale.

It also feels like it betrays your concept of the mob in that fashion, since you created it in the spirit of making it possible to keep a group of weak creatures threatening and allow something strong to make a mob of itself.
It's a pretty powerful stance yes. But it's still a stance meaning you don't get to use other stances. One that makes you take +50% damage from area effects and reduces your speed/AC at that. And it's loyal to the base material of Suika.  :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 08, 2016, 09:48:02 PM
Quote
Meh, no, since the original problem was mechas getting stupidly big (or stupidly small)
The issue is not that it increases/decreases size a lot or that the size change isn't too good at a given level, it is that nothing that can change a size can affect a mecha except very specific things that mention working on mechas.
Would you allow Soro's Giant Size spell to change the size of the mecha? Why would the stance of a discipline not meant for mechas (such as Burning Justice) get a free pass?

Quote
It's a pretty powerful stance yes. But it's still a stance meaning you don't get to use other stances. One that makes you take +50% damage from area effects and reduces your speed/AC at that. And it's loyal to the base material of Suika.  :p
She could become a swarm. That's what large groups of tiny creatures are.
And that way she doesn't benefit from the Mob rules that are meant to be used on weak creatures. Still strong.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 08, 2016, 10:19:21 PM
This is based on the assumption that the Marauder is a piloted Mecha, doesn't it?

I mean, I can work on Mecha scale without being in a Mecha. I'm pretty sure the Marauder was human sized, wasn't it? It could be doing similar stuff to count as a Mecha without piloting a Mecha, I dunno.

Besides that, if Mecha don't benefit size increases from pilots, that only means the turning tiny sized part of the stance wouldn't work. It could still multiply the target/Mecha, potentially. Whether that is against intention could be debated, yes, because it wasn't a stance that considered Mecha rules, but he already ruled it as a DM and no one else here contests this. Your constant arguing against everything Os decides to rule for just....it's just so tedious to keep reading.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 08, 2016, 11:27:10 PM
Quote
I mean, I can work on Mecha scale without being in a Mecha. I'm pretty sure the Marauder was human sized, wasn't it? It could be doing similar stuff to count as a Mecha without piloting a Mecha, I dunno.
Nah, it was mentioned to be a mecha. It would work if you used it like that, though. Though whether it would make you bigger (mecha tiny is huge) depends on how it is written in the ability that makes you work on mecha scale.
This because there may well be a distinction between working on mecha-scale without a mecha to determines distances and using the actual mecha sizes, which could be handled separately.

Quote
Your constant arguing against everything Os decides to rule for just....it's just so tedious to keep reading.
I appreciate you giving your two cents whenever I ask a question but you don't have to see it as arguing.
I'll be detailing a review of the Oni Brawler and the discipline eventually but take that one thing here right away since it is mixing with mecha stuff and was put into play. To be usable as a mecha ability it would have to specifically state that mechas can benefit from it, since that is what the mecha rules demand. Otherwise simply ruling it as okay for this game doesn't make it valid for any other game.
As with my normal reviewing procedures, I make suggestions as well.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 08, 2016, 11:31:06 PM
it's just so tedious to keep reading.
I just want you to know that I feel exactly as you do.

I'd also like to point out Ols got his first update out within 3 hours of the guy he was waiting on so maybe we'll get a full update tomorrow (and I'll be around to post my update too!).

As with my normal reviewing procedures, I make suggestions as well.
No, it's not your normal "review" procedure. If you actually reviewed anything you'd know you need the Track Feat and a Survival Check to "Mao keeps following the tracks of the marauder, until it is in sight. Or something else catches her attention." What your procedure really need to be called is question everything into people get sick of your crap and start saying yes to shut you up, you never review anything you do and ignore content when it's convenient.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 08, 2016, 11:42:33 PM
Can we have a slightly less argumentative OOC, perhaps?

Though for mecha ignoring size weirdness but stances that explicitly do weird sizes, I would go for the stances. Seems that you should just substitute yourself for the mecha to keep maneuvers working.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 09, 2016, 12:47:00 AM
Quote
If you actually reviewed anything you'd know you need the Track Feat and a Survival Check to "Mao keeps following the tracks of the marauder, until it is in sight.
Only if the DC is 11 and higher, if you knew your stuff. With the number of creatures doing the tracks, the DC is very negative. Though I wasn't referring to the actual process of searching for tracks but following what would likely be an evident path that they would have left behind themselves. And there is the sound all their engines are making together (among others for going at such speeds). I can roll a check if it isn't automatically succeeded.

Quote
No, it's not your normal "review" procedure.
I often do when reviewing maneuvers.

Quote
you never review anything you do and ignore content when it's convenient.
Doesn't sound like me, no. More nonsensical accusations to add to the pile. Funny coming from someone who tried to cover up his mecha being destroyed and bitched around when it was found out.
When I point out details that could be inconvenient to us, such as the grapple modifier question, or using spirits out of turn, you bitch about it too.
Maybe it is all about what is convenient for you. Nothing new there.

@RD
Quote
Though for mecha ignoring size weirdness but stances that explicitly do weird sizes, I would go for the stances. Seems that you should just substitute yourself for the mecha to keep maneuvers working.
That's how it is for most ability buffs, but not size altering ones.
The issue remains the basic rule:
Quote from: Rule
A mecha is unaffected by the pilot's size (although you cannot pilot a mecha that's smaller than you). A mecha can only change size by taking the super robot growth upgrade or some other ability that explicitly allows a mecha/ship to change its size. This includes a mecha ignoring abilities of its Pilot such as powerful build.
So a pilot's stance counts as an ability of the pilot that grants it a size change unless it explicitly mentions that it works for a mecha. That's all. As currently written, that doesn't apply to that stance. If it allows someone to use it without the size change, it allows the maneuver to be abused by initiating it through a very large mecha, which would make a mob of, say, colossal mechas. Probably not what was in mind when the size change was written into that maneuver.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 09, 2016, 10:39:45 AM
Doesn't sound like me, no. More nonsensical accusations to add to the pile. Funny coming from someone who tried to cover up his mecha being destroyed and bitched around when it was found out. When I point out details that could be inconvenient to us, such as the grapple modifier question, or using spirits out of turn, you bitch about it too. Maybe it is all about was is convenient for you. Nothing new there.
Is that really what you think?
That should help a bit mitigate the damage and perhaps better avoid being grappled, depending on Osle's ruling on attack bonuses applying to grapple checks.
You didn't post the Grapple Modifier questions because it was inconvenient to us, you posted them because it was convenient for you to increase your check.

Likewise in my post I stated I did not know what Action it was to use Guard but, I have more than enough spirit that I could have asked for the minor retcon of having it up in the round before because I didn't know it's preparatory vs responsive. But even more importantly, I didn't bog the thread down arguing for it or bitching about it and the mech took it's fatal damage and I have accepted being removed from the Encounter. So stand in the mirror and tell your self you need to raise your awareness.

Also one of the biggest problems with trying to an ad hominem attack as a defense is it doesn't make you less of a douchebag but worse. Except, I don't need your help. Almost everyone has already chimed in about how they were waiting on you and getting tired of seeing the crap. So really, I'm just digging my own hole for arguing against a troll. I think now would be a great time to review and implement a stupid questions & update policy. Something like if everyone else has posted an Anomander has not he has to post in three days no matter how many stupid questions are unresolved in the OOC thread. That'll cut the questions down, the arguments down, and the waiting will exclusively depend on Ols.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 09, 2016, 02:44:40 PM
Quote
You didn't post the Grapple Modifier questions because it was inconvenient to us, you posted them because it was convenient for you to increase your check.
It wasn't more convenient but could have been good for the party if the +atk damage aura helped everyone, and isn't a personal concern as I can make Mao immune to grappling. Point was that even when it isn't convenient you bitch about it.

Right now I am questioning the validity of a mecha mob stance, which, if it were to be canceled, would make running after it more difficult and my build makes it easier to deal with a mob than a regular mecha.

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Likewise in my post I stated I did not know what Action it was to use Guard but, I have more than enough spirit that I could have asked for the minor retcon of having it up in the round before because I didn't know it's preparatory vs responsive.
You applied the guard spirit and didn't ask if you could. You assumed it was okay and just went with it. If you know how much spirit points you have, you read the rules for it. A minor retcon? A crucial one, you mean, based on the metagaming knowledge of its importance.
Katherine's double use of the Defend feat similarly made me raise an eyebrow for a moment, but sounded legit after all (though I am personally too unsure about whether it is meant to stack with itself to use it myself without asking).

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I didn't bog the thread down arguing for it or bitching about it
Your knee-jerk reaction was accusing Osle's motives, saying his intention with this encounter was to instant-rek the mechas to promote his updates. Bitching. You had to accuse the motives because you couldn't argue about the rule itself; it was plainly written.

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Also one of the biggest problems with trying to an ad hominem attack as a defense is it doesn't make you less of a douchebag but worse.
You're always personally attacking me and you don't like it when I question your motives? Typical.
When I pointed out your mistakes, mathematical or otherwise, I tried to do so with minimal personal attack. I won't trade insults.

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Except, I don't need your help.
If you miss something and I correct your stuff in the future, whether it benefits you or not, it won't be to help you but to keep the game going under the rules. I'm not sure why you though it was any different so far. Not because I think you can't handle it yourself. Everyone misses stuff from time to time.

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Something like if everyone else has posted an Anomander has not he has to post in three days no matter how many stupid questions are unresolved in the OOC thread.
I'm very fine with it provided it applies to everyone.
I'll similarly just send my questions to the DM with private messages for everyone's convenience. Sorry for the bother and thank you all for bearing with it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 09, 2016, 03:36:42 PM
Your knee-jerk reaction was accusing Osle's motives, saying his intention with this encounter was to instant-rek the mechas to promote his updates.
Actually it was a question, and he answered it. But I think you're getting confused over the not-so-friendly-toned reminder that he got when he accused everyone of not using their defensive buffs as the reason they were dying.

I'll similarly just send my questions to the DM with private messages for everyone's convenience. Sorry for the bother and thank you all for bearing with it.
I could almost hug you but I feel like I just made a pact with the devil and Ols has to pay for it.

So umm, I appreciate you running this game Ols and look at the other people that greatly enjoy this game too. Try not to give into the despair.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 09, 2016, 03:38:54 PM
Writing the questions here never really bothered me. Especially the ones where the answers affect everyone.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 09, 2016, 04:43:34 PM
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But I think you're getting confused over the not-so-friendly-toned reminder that he got when he accused everyone of not using their defensive buffs as the reason they were dying.
No, I had mostly skipped that one since it didn't seem worth the read. Doesn't sound like it was a rebuke addressed to everyone either.
Your question looks a lot like an accusation of what you'd want perceived as malevolent intentions that you later took for granted in that post by saying that "the Funnel would have been destroyed in the entire must kill all mechs attack anyway."
The wording and emphasis strongly suggests that intent, that's all. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one that felt it like that.

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Writing the questions here never really bothered me. Especially the ones where the answers affect everyone.
You'll probably all get the results if it changes anything and would be free to contest it then.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 10, 2016, 07:20:56 AM
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Meh, no, since the original problem was mechas getting stupidly big (or stupidly small)
The issue is not that it increases/decreases size a lot or that the size change isn't too good at a given level, it is that nothing that can change a size can affect a mecha except very specific things that mention working on mechas.
Would you allow Soro's Giant Size spell to change the size of the mecha? Why would the stance of a discipline not meant for mechas (such as Burning Justice) get a free pass?
Because multiplying mechas of course, which is something that usually shows up at least once in every SRW game. No reason to create a new mecha-specific school when there's already another with the same effect.

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It's a pretty powerful stance yes. But it's still a stance meaning you don't get to use other stances. One that makes you take +50% damage from area effects and reduces your speed/AC at that. And it's loyal to the base material of Suika.  :p
She could become a swarm. That's what large groups of tiny creatures are.
And that way she doesn't benefit from the Mob rules that are meant to be used on weak creatures. Still strong.
Ok, let me just change the stance to the bunch of tiny creatures ->swarm conversion rules and...

Oh wait, there aren't any.  :eh

Perhaps the stance needs a nerf, but replacing it with a null value is not a solution.

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Writing the questions here never really bothered me. Especially the ones where the answers affect everyone.
You'll probably all get the results if it changes anything and would be free to contest it then.

Actually it saves me work if the discussion is here than having to post relevant replies multiple times in different parts.

I can create another thread in this subforum just for rules discussions through.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 10, 2016, 10:25:17 AM
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Ok, let me just change the stance to the bunch of tiny creatures ->swarm conversion rules and...

Oh wait, there aren't any.  :eh
Quote from: Swarms
A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature. A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature. A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures. In order to attack, it moves into an opponent’s space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so. A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.

A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.
Quote from: Mob
A mob can be composed of Small, Medium, or Large creatures, but all the individual creatures must be of the same type.
Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're referring to. There's already some other abilities out there that transform creatures into swarms. Some monster templates do it.
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No reason to create a new mecha-specific school when there's already another with the same effect.
It could be a super robot upgrade of some kind or something that converts funnels into mecha replicas or somesuch. Right now the size changing stance is on a martial discipline that isn't normally learned by pilots and as written cannot be applied to the mecha since it isn't specifically doing so, which your mecha rules require.

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I can create another thread in this subforum just for rules discussions through.
Whichever way is most convenient.


About the game
What is the distance traveled so far? It would determine how much energy is consumed by the movement.
I assume the tail end of the marauder mob (since it has a lot of itself to drag around) isn't in sight for fault of not being mentioned.
Also, is this in the corner of a 30x30 corridor or at the entrance of a room (that would have the warriors hiding on the sides.)
Clumped together as they usually are?
Because I'll likely attack them with a swift action.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 10, 2016, 12:43:59 PM
Actually it saves me work if the discussion is here than having to post relevant replies multiple times in different parts.
Aww, I was helping when I tried to answer them so you didn't have to.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 10, 2016, 03:20:52 PM
No, Anomander, Os was saying there are no rules for a large number of creatures combining into a swarm just by being near each other like there is for Mobs.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 10, 2016, 09:35:31 PM
Actually it saves me work if the discussion is here than having to post relevant replies multiple times in different parts.
Aww, I was helping when I tried to answer them so you didn't have to.

Thanks anyway.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're referring to. There's already some other abilities out there that transform creatures into swarms. Some monster templates do it.
No, only case-by-case basis, while a stance needs to be generic. What are the stats for a swarm of imps? Pixies? Marauder mechas? Cats? Tiny animated objects? Or apply the mob rules that already exist and just say that each two tiny creatures count as one small. Done.

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No reason to create a new mecha-specific school when there's already another with the same effect.
It could be a super robot upgrade of some kind or something that converts funnels into mecha replicas or somesuch. Right now the size changing stance is on a martial discipline that isn't normally learned by pilots and as written cannot be applied to the mecha since it isn't specifically doing so, which your mecha rules require.
SRW d20 was always intended to be played with gestalt, that's why the pilot classes have little on the utility department. Also makes sure everybody gets a mecha or equivalent.

Anyway the size changing is not an essential part of the stance. The multiplying to form a mob  is and the mecha rules have no clause against multiplication. If anything the copies being tiny sized is a nerf more than anything else.


About the game
What is the distance traveled so far? It would determine how much energy is consumed by the movement.
I assume the tail end of the marauder mob (since it has a lot of itself to drag around) isn't in sight for fault of not being mentioned.
Also, is this in the corner of a 30x30 corridor or at the entrance of a room (that would have the warriors hiding on the sides.)
Clumped together as they usually are?
Because I'll likely attack them with a swift action.
Mao moved another 65 mu, mob not in sight, corridor only 15x15, warriors 35 feet away from each other.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 10, 2016, 10:05:52 PM
I think I might have lost what little common sense I have, because I was looking at the Boss template of all things...  :lol
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 11, 2016, 12:07:24 AM
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I think I might have lost what little common sense I have, because I was looking at the Boss template of all things...  :lol
I knew the day it was posted that it would be where I'd put my next level up. Don't mind that it takes both sides of the gestalt.

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No, only case-by-case basis, while a stance needs to be generic. What are the stats for a swarm of imps? Pixies? Marauder mechas? Cats? Tiny animated objects? Or apply the mob rules that already exist and just say that each two tiny creatures count as one small. Done.
I thought it'd be done for this stance by simply giving the swarm subtype to the creature. Maybe a little extra too. Nothing more to it as the swarm subtype has the details of how it affects whatever it is applied to. It doesn't say exactly what are the stats of a given generic swarm of a given creature as a template would but that isn't a concern for a stance since it can apply it to a creature in the same fashion you apply the incorporeal subtype.

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Anyway the size changing is not an essential part of the stance. The multiplying to form a mob  is and the mecha rules have no clause against multiplication. If anything the copies being tiny sized is a nerf more than anything else.
Aye, a nerf built into the stance for balance, I suppose, which is why ignoring the size alteration would make it easier to abuse.
If only the size change part of an ability is negated for mechas and not the rest of what the ability provides, it may lead to interesting new similar applications of other abilities though that's something I'll explore later.
Such as using the Deceptively Innocent Form feat while in a mecha to have the mecha transform into your innocent form without changing its size.

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Mao moved another 65 mu, mob not in sight, corridor only 15x15, warriors 35 feet away from each other.
I decided to skip them and move on to the marauder. I'll have her switch Way of the Sword to another weapon. If she has to exit the stance to reenter it for another weapon, I'll have her use Radiant Rolling Counter instead to move a bit more (depending on how far they are from her) and attack them with an unarmed strike. She can attack them all with it instead of only the one it is used against though perhaps I can only harm the one; the maneuver's wording isn't clearly indicating that the standard action cannot harm more targets than the one it has to affect so I'll leave it to your judgement.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 11, 2016, 12:12:19 AM
Thanks anyway.
Huh? I meant I fielded some of the answers to some of the questions posed simply to make your life easier without knowing if it were actually helpful or desired. Then you posted saying to liked some of the questions to done publicly so others can chime in.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 11, 2016, 12:15:13 AM
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I think I might have lost what little common sense I have, because I was looking at the Boss template of all things...  :lol
I knew the day it was posted that it would be where I'd put my next level up. Don't mind that it takes both sides of the gestalt.

Well... now I'm concerned.

Plus Mao seems to be effectively a slave to the AA. Seems a bit against the gist of it. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 11, 2016, 12:25:26 AM
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Plus Mao seems to be effectively a slave to the AA. Seems a bit against the gist of it.
I don't see how. She is an administrator herself. She is one of the founding members of the AA and part of the reason the androids rebelled and ended the war.
The AA can hardly afford to lose her and she has a lot of influence in the way its policies are handled. No wonder they put a lot of importance to the preservation of organic life and giving them an environment in which they can thrive. Trying to restore Parum's flaura and fauna to what it was before the Devastation. Basically trying to fix all of humanities mistakes.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 11, 2016, 12:29:09 AM
... this just raises more questions about other things. How the hell being in a group with Amaterasu passes without comment, for instance.

Also: please make a bullet-point version of those backgrounds at some point. Your characters are confusing enough mechanically, I have no fucking idea how the histories fit together.

EDIT: Also, please, in the name of any sanity: don't take anything that gives you more actions. You already have enough tagalong options to put out something like three turns already, access to Zeal... as much as it would be optimal, please don't take extra sources of actions. You have more than enough choices and options.

There's no need to push things into the scenario where literally half the actions on the player side are yours. Stick in the regular multiple-roll maneuvers, attacks with multiple rolls... just... please don't make things even more difficult to read through and manage.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 11, 2016, 12:57:52 AM
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... this just raises more questions about other things. How the hell being in a group with Amaterasu passes without comment, for instance.
I don't see why it would be any stranger than Amaterasu taking a job from the AA to begin with.

Amaterasu fought for the highest bidder and the war ended suddenly with the android revolt. Mao and Ama may well have never even seen eachother during the war. Even if they did, there would be no enmity. She didn't follow any specific ideology, being a mercenary and the AA suppressed the warring factions and absorbed them as they took over Parum. What could have been seen as enemies for the brief duration of the revolt are now citizens (or rebels).

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Also: please make a bullet-point version of those backgrounds at some point. Your characters are confusing enough mechanically, I have no fucking idea how the histories fit together.
There isn't much for the minion. Only Yo-Ka has a particular background. The other aspects were simply built by her or built into her as part of the process of creating a Fusion Golem.

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You already have enough tagalong options to put out something like three turns already, access to Zeal... as much as it would be optimal, please don't take extra sources of actions. You have more than enough choices and options.
I was going to get rid of Zeal for one of the new spirits. I'll never use it anyway. I wouldn't put more than one level in Boss, as interesting as it is.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 11, 2016, 01:03:36 AM
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... this just raises more questions about other things. How the hell being in a group with Amaterasu passes without comment, for instance.
I don't see why it would be any stranger than Amaterasu taking a job from the AA to begin with.

Amaterasu fought for the highest bidder and the war ended suddenly with the android revolt. Mao and Ama may well have never even seen eachother during the war. Even if they did, there would be no enmity. She didn't follow any specific ideology, being a mercenary and the AA suppressed the warring factions and absorbed them as they took over Parum. What could have been seen as enemies for the brief duration of the revolt are now citizens (or rebels).

I would have expected that Mao would care slightly more than her. :p

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Also: please make a bullet-point version of those backgrounds at some point. Your characters are confusing enough mechanically, I have no fucking idea how the histories fit together.
There isn't much. Only Yo-Ka has a particular background. The other aspects were simply built by her or built into her as part of the process of creating a Fusion Golem.

Immediately we enter into the "I have no good idea what you're talking about" range. Everyone else in the roleplay is simple: science experiment mercenary legend, distant deceitful royalty with retainers, mercenary/former student (or something) of the aforementioned mercenary,  uberspy working with the AA.

And then you have a bio that has at least three different people of varying importances and long chains of events. Summaries. Summaries would be nice. I don't even know who's who... @_@
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 11, 2016, 01:24:57 AM
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I would have expected that Mao would care slightly more than her. :p
Mao's personality doesn't leave much room for feelings of enmity or anger. It is mostly converted to pathos or a need to complete a duty.
If anything, she'd be delighted to see her contribute to Parum's future now for taking an AA contract, while remaining concerned for the destruction that will likely be unleashed in the process.

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Summaries would be nice. I don't even know who's who... @_@
Ah, I getcha. Sure! I'll work on one. Maybe sometimes this week in the evening/night.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 11, 2016, 01:27:49 AM
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Summaries would be nice. I don't even know who's who... @_@
Ah, I getcha. Sure! I'll work on one. Maybe sometimes this week in the evening/night as right now I have so many things to take care of I am almost feeling stress.
I'm working to increase my annual income with real estate investments and there's a lot of numbers to crunch and investigate while working full time. And I have deadlines before the government changes the game with new laws that are harder to take advantage of.

Umm... sorry that I didn't find a good time to mention this before?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 11, 2016, 03:19:19 AM
Just to point out it's not the party's new turn yet. Mao still needed to post the swift action, and just a swift action, then I need to make the general turn update, in particular Katherine who's fast enough to catch up with the mob after Mao drew the shots.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 11, 2016, 03:21:38 AM
It's all right. Didn't mean to make it sound like it is a bother. I figured it couldn't take that much time after all so I just got it done right away before I give myself a chance to forget about it. I'll maybe polish it later.

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Mao still needed to post the swift action, and just a swift action
Already have. Just not sure which will apply but I've set an order of priority based on what can be done. I'll roll hit/dmg if it ends up with it being an attack and update the energy meter as per the total flight distance traveled. Off t'ill tomorrow night then.

Woo, got 5 minutes;
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Anyway the size changing is not an essential part of the stance. The multiplying to form a mob is and the mecha rules have no clause against multiplication. If anything the copies being tiny sized is a nerf more than anything else.
Something that just stroke me that then it becomes difficult to interpret what the maneuver really does.
It first makes you tiny, which now doesn't happen - then it makes copies of you in the new size, which never changed - You then become a mob of yourself.
The original non-copy mecha never changed size, so even if it made a bunch of tiny copies of itself, it itself isn't tiny, so it maybe cannot form a mob with itself (depends if by all of them having to be the same type you refer to the creature type). If the stance effectively turns the mecha into a mob, the resulting mob cannot be of a size bigger or smaller than the mecha itself is. If it just makes copies of the original's size and mobs them up, that makes a pretty massive amount of large mechas since the stance doesn't account for the fact that the number of copies is meant to be Tiny only.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 11, 2016, 12:42:43 PM
Just to point out it's not the party's new turn yet. Mao still needed to post the swift action, and just a swift action, then I need to make the general turn update, in particular Katherine who's fast enough to catch up with the mob after Mao drew the shots.
Ahh, cool. I was like new round and nothing for us? Well I'm pretty sure Kuro captured some guys...
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 14, 2016, 03:03:39 PM
You know, if you're willing to skip out on Arsenal's unique properties and have the cash normal weapons are simply the way to go.

Since Weapons have no cap, they simply are designed for X creature, you can create a Colossal+++ weapon for a mech to wield. Base cost, Weight, and HP all double per Size modification so upgrading to Large, Huge, Gargantuan, Colossal, Colossal+ (mech large), Colossal++ (mech huge), & Colossal+++ (mech gargantuan) creates a x128 modifier with +7 damage upgrades (+8 if you buy your mech some strongarm bracers).

Most WSA become redundant, like adding Flaming to a Gargantuan Mech Greatsword is a +0.04% increase in damage but Splitting is very potent.  Hank's Energy Bow, works out to 8k for the +2, 100gp for the composite, 300gp for masterwork, leaving 14.2k for the unique trait. Upgrading this to a +2 Splitting Colossal+++ Energy Bow in turn produces a total cost of 77,200gp, if Size chances are respected it deals 24d6+StrMod+PowerAttack Force damage which completely bypasses Damage Reduction and you get at least six attacks per turn. @30 Str no-PA that's 564 damage (which isn't even enough to sunder it's self).

It's enough you'll outpace even my expected lv14 damage and come on par with Andomander's current. This might be an easy solution for some people who are struggling in the DPR department.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 14, 2016, 04:21:18 PM
Wouldn't that just count as a mecha weapon of size gargantuan? Even if it doesn't, I don't recall the damage dice increasing in powers of two.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 14, 2016, 04:41:19 PM
Wouldn't that just count as a mecha weapon of size gargantuan? Even if it doesn't, I don't recall the damage dice increasing in powers of two.
The dice advance at a "+2=x2"-like rate.

The bow deals 2d6 at Medium, 3d6 Large, 4d6 Huge, 6d6 Gargantuan, & 8d6 Colossal per RC. If you'll notice the trend there, Huge is Mediumx2, Gargantuan is Largex2, Colossal is Hugex2, etc. We even know for a fact 8d6 upgrades to 12d6 per Savage Species giving us a canonical Colossal+ figure which is again fits the model because it equals Gargantuanx2. So Colossal+++, two sizes larger than the last provable example, when following the designed pattern would be Colossal+x2 or 24d6.

I actually have no clue is Arsenal is set in stone or scaled to "Medium" Mechs, but due to it's widely odd values (9d10 damage!) even if it did change per Mech Size you need Ols to rule on how to upgrade those odd values. Likewise there is no indication you can Enchant them, etc. Lots of vague considerations in that area.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 14, 2016, 04:46:16 PM
12 times the damage and 128 times the cost. Wow. xD

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 14, 2016, 05:08:02 PM
12 times the damage and 128 times the cost. Wow. xD
Yeah but most weapons are pretty cheap to begin with. It's probably why the Gundam Sandrock ran around with a submachine gun and two swords instead of fancy mech gear ;)

Also I was off on Hank's Bow. Masterwork is included into the base cost meaning it' also affected by the cost modifier, the bow costs 115,400gp. Still, you can always just buy two Longswords if you need the upgrades or w/e. Even a simple run of the mill Heavy Crossbow deals 16d8 for 6,400gp which really isn't bad. You're kind of just trading out the Mech's Dex-to-Damage & a special property or two for more damage.

Given the enormous Attack bonuses Ols and Andomander is throwing around like candy. The -4 for nonproficiency is pretty laughable, throw Harpoons!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 14, 2016, 06:53:41 PM
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Since Weapons have no cap, they simply are designed for X creature, you can create a Colossal+++ weapon for a mech to wield.
Aside from Oslecamo's homebrew stuff that specifically enlarge a creature beyond the colossal size, why do people assume there are weapon base damage increases based on size higher than those available for a given base damage die at colossal? It seems that if an ability makes you deal damage as if you were one size category bigger, it can't give you damage beyond the maximum size there is, and there is no size bigger than colossal (so such abilities would be useless to a colossal creature).

Quote from: SRD
Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the oldest epic dragons deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons, as shown on the Epic Dragon Face and Reach and Epic Dragon Attacks tables below. In addition, the breath weapon of the oldest epic dragons is a larger cone than most Colossal dragons possess. The size modifier for these dragons remains -8.
Colossal+ seems to only be a way to show that the epic dragons get more powerful than others of the same size. Even the space they occupy is the same rather than actually getting bigger.


I'm still amazed none of our super large party members wanted that Sol weapon we got from the dragon with the huge crit-range and the base medium damage of 3d6 (12d6 at colossal).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 14, 2016, 06:58:18 PM
Because I literally am locked into using, almost exclusively, my Yokai-Forged Blades :p

Didn't Rainy take a giant axe from the dragon tho for pretty much that very reason?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 14, 2016, 07:38:52 PM
Aside from Oslecamo's homebrew stuff that specifically enlarge a creature beyond the colossal size, why do people assume there are weapon base damage increases based on size higher than those available for a given base damage die at colossal?
Because your citation is found in a entry that adds a 9th Size to the game and specifically is for True Dragons. Also, if you have an uncapped example that lists four things and specific rules saying you advance to the fifth thing it's only logical you don't stop at the fourth.

Oh, and there is this.
Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize
A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder.In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
If you wanted to design a Colossal+++ Dagger to be wielded by a Colossal Dragon as a Two-Handed weapon you can.

The only debatable part is what should you call it, Colossal+++? Mech Gargantuan? Macro Gargantuan? Col+3? And who the heck cares as long as you get what you mean across.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 14, 2016, 07:59:53 PM
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Because your citation is found in a entry that adds a 9th Size to the game and specifically is for True Dragons. Also, if you have an uncapped example that lists four things and specific rules saying you advance to the fifth thing it's only logical you don't stop at the fourth.
Yes, and it clearly indicates that there is no size larger than colossal. It even explains that the Colossal+ entry isn't a real size category and is just meant to indicate that dragons at that size get better damage and breath range and the like. Though the space and reach doesn't change... which is odd, since technically every size has two kinds; long/tall, a bigger dragon could have gotten the better reach for also being tall, but it doesn't.
Is Colossal+ used anywhere else in the manuals as something else than something proper to epic dragons for that very and only purpose?
Anything core that refers to a size bigger than colossal?

Quote from: SRD
Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
Yes. Doesn't that imply that a weapon cannot be bigger than the maximum size a creature can be?
If you make a Colossal+++ weapon, which is designed for a Colossal+++ creature, it would require that a Colossal+++ creature is possible.
But it seems to cap a Colossal.


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Didn't Rainy take a giant axe from the dragon tho for pretty much that very reason?
Only the Sol blade did high base damage. Except maybe the ranged weapon. The others did pretty normal damage but the axe increased the Strength score.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 14, 2016, 08:16:27 PM
I took the axe because it had side bonuses. Thing isn't mecha sized, though. Well, except so much as Amaterasu herself happens to be capable of headbutting your average mecha. xD

Quote from: SRD
Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
Yes. Doesn't that imply that a weapon cannot be bigger than the maximum size a creature can be?
If you make a Colossal+++ weapon, which is designed for a Colossal+++ creature, it would require that a Colossal+++ creature is possible.
But it seems to cap a Colossal.

Well... we've got monster classes in here. Monster class rules explicitly extend scaling beyond Colossal. Therefore, it doesn't cap.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 14, 2016, 08:22:14 PM
Aye, I did say aside from Oslecamo's homebrew stuff that specifically enlarge a creature beyond the colossal size.
I'm mostly asking this since I've seen plenty of people try to optimize stuff as if there were sizes beyond colossal in the core rules and don't remember seeing any rule that supports it.

Though, unless I missed something, this is the homebrew rule you refer to for handling creatures supposed to get bigger than colossal:
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I combined two monster classes with gestalt/monster hybrid and now I'm suposed to grow beyond colossal! What happens?
Your character's space and reach increase by 10 feet, height is doubled, its natural armor increases by an extra 1, its natural weapons increase one die size, gain an extra +4 on grapple/bullrush/trip and similar maneuvers that care about size.
It doesn't state that there is a bigger size category, it only determines how your stats are affected whenever you are supposed to get bigger again but you are already colossal. Whether it allows you to get a weapon designated for something larger than colossal, while logical, may need to be specified because it only increases the natural weapons.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 15, 2016, 09:48:22 AM
Oooh look Anomander is in another rules argument with his follow players and complaining Ols's homebrew is "ambiguous" to interpret things in his way. You know, not even a few hours before that post you just tried saying your personal interpretation an expansion that added a 10th size referencing Core only has 9 Categories refuted the entire expansion as self contradiction. But that aside, you offered it as a rebuttal against me increasing weapon damage even through the Colossal+ entry increases damage beyond Colossal making it favor my point, not yours. Hell the entire Advanced entry is all about addressing the fact that Dragons have no maximum limit on Progression, just a categoric list that ends at Great Wyrm and rules that keep going which is a very good analog of the topic. And would you guess it, Ols's entry does the same thing on increasing damage beyond the Colossal category.

And oh look, you're still bitching.  :rolleyes
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 15, 2016, 11:19:50 AM
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Oooh look Anomander is in another rules argument with his follow players and complaining Ols's homebrew is "ambiguous" to interpret things in his way.
I asked you what made your interpretation of sizes correct, because I don't remember seeing anything that validates it. You have yet to do so.
I'm not complaining; I'm suggesting that if it is intended to create new size categories above colossal for weapons rather than only increasing the stats for that creature alone, it should perhaps clarify it because it doesn't state there is any other size category above colossal. I've never seen a monster entry Colossal+++, nor even a monster entry with Colossal+ that was an actual size increase so I'm curious where it is coming from in the core rules. Because so far it seems you are making assumptions off a creature table you've read poorly.

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you just tried saying your personal interpretation
I'm just reading things as they are written. It says there are no sizes larger than colossal. If you insist on inventing new ones, then it feels like you are interpreting things to mean something else than what is written. Not me.
When you read "there is no size category larger than Colossal", what is it exactly that is subject to interpretation?

Quote
Colossal+ entry increases damage beyond Colossal making it favor my point, not yours.
Only if you misread the entry. It only increases the damage of the natural weapons of those dragons. Not the damage of the weapons they wield. You read it as an actual size category when the entry specifically explains that Colossal+ is only a indicator for colossal dragons that are better than other colossal dragon while still being colossal. Their size modifiers don't change, their space do not change. Their reach doesn't change. Nothing changes except a few specific things; natural weapon damage and breath range. It seems that one can only interpret that has an actual size category if they do not read what it is and only see it as a size category, which it isn't; it is the colossal size category with a bonus. If your assumptions are entirely based on the Colossal+ dragons getting a natural weapon damage increase, then you are trying to generalize something beyond what it is and to apply it to things it doesn't.

So, pray, what leads you to believe that there is a size category larger than colossal that is available to every creature.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 15, 2016, 11:27:04 AM
Are we seriously having an argument over a point that I can make moot at level 16 by actually getting that size increase? :eh
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 15, 2016, 01:00:49 PM
Are we seriously having an argument over a point that I can make moot at level 16 by actually getting that size increase? :eh
Yes, yes he is.

And he is such an effective troll with his bait tactics. I mean look at this;
When you read "there is no size category larger than Colossal", what is it exactly that is subject to interpretation?
Here is what is actually printed.
Quote from: The actual Colossal+ Size Entry that expands on the existing sizes
Colossal+ Size: Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, ...
He literally misquoted the wrong entry as a strawman point in a game there expressly added more sizes ran by a DM that expressly clarified Size increases to stack indefinitely in case anyone asked. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Vecna, it got me to rejoin arguing a bit, but I suppose I am pretty easy like that.

Someone really just needs to start answering his posts with "fuck off" since apparently he won't go away on his own and I'm apparently too gullible.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 15, 2016, 01:10:59 PM
You're the one that keeps up the ad hominem far more than needed and exacerbates things, though.

Anyway: we actually have rules in play for this, though the question is 'would a giant weapon in the hands of a mecha count as its normal size or mecha size'. Digging through sourcebooks to argue the point is a waste of time, and so is making it an argument about the character of the other players.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 15, 2016, 01:37:22 PM
You're the one that keeps up the ad hominem far more than needed and exacerbates things, though.
Eh, we all know I give reflective treatment to people and I literally just mentioned I'm pretty easy to draw into an argument. You're not stating anything new or unheard of to anyone present and since it's all secondary to the incitement your branching into a from of blaming the victim simply because you personally don't like the response.

And while the level of a "proper" response is morally debatable, the fact is a solution of incitement was already offered by Ols in the form of a Rules Q&A thread where Anomander can post his crap in an area that'd only be seen by the people that want to. I know I don't want to, I'm sick of it. Maybe you dislike my responses, well they wouldn't be in here if he crap wasn't in here. Point is RD, a solution was offered and Anomander would rather grief this thread than use it. If you want it to stop, start with the source rather than the symptoms.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 15, 2016, 01:54:22 PM
You can't foist responsibility for your actions on someone else just because you're argumentative.

Besides, isn't treating the symptoms equally important as dealing with the source of things? <_<
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 15, 2016, 02:33:24 PM
Besides, isn't treating the symptoms equally important as dealing with the source of things? <_<
Not really.

Treating a symptom can buy you time to treat the underlying but symptoms will spring up faster over time and trying to keep up will detract from handling the underlying which if initially focused on would have fixed the symptoms, both now and coming. Like imagine coming home wanting nothing more than a shower but instead you decide you need to treat the symptoms of your displayed uncleanliness at the same time. Your wet stick of deodorant isn't going to do it's job, your smell-good-oil is just going to get diluted and washed away, trying to style your hair in the shower is going to be a frustrating event unless you prefer a shaved head. You tried to do everything at once and ended up failing all of it.

Edit - btw, I want you to realize something else. You blaming me for my reaction to someone else instead of the provocation also means that I in turn cannot be blamed for any or your posts trying to argue otherwise. This long ongoing problem is apparently your fault according to RD.  :P
And like that, the troll has created a self sustaining argument that no longer involves him thanks to baiting RD in. I warned you it was highly effective just as I equally offered or highlighted previously offered solutions that'd stop it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 15, 2016, 03:01:35 PM
But if we ignore the symptom and just focus on the source, then apparently we should focus entirely on faulty electronics whilst letting the building burn down around us.

Quote
Edit - btw, I want you to realize something else. You blaming me for my reaction to someone else instead of the provocation also means that I in turn cannot be blamed for any or your posts trying to argue otherwise. This long ongoing problem is apparently your fault according to RD.  :P

Why would I be blaming you for my posts? I can blame you for turning every attempt at stopping inane arguments into equally inane ones, though. :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 15, 2016, 04:24:43 PM
But if we ignore the symptom and just focus on the source, then apparently we should focus entirely on faulty electronics whilst letting the building burn down around us.
Yeah you probably should. Putting water on live wires is a good way to get someone hurt or killed. And speaking of interior attack, you need to start at the underlying problem of the rapidly oxidizing materials rather than the flames which as just a burning gas symptom of fire. Otherwise the fire will continue to generate heat trying to relight what you're trying to put out.

If you firefighting techniques weren't so inane you'd have better luck. So see? It's totally your fault.  0:)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 15, 2016, 04:56:46 PM
But by that logic we can start a chain of cause and effect to well before we're born, and I don't recall this being about whether the world is deterministic or not. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 15, 2016, 05:29:08 PM
The easy solution is to just allow the immortals handbook so we can have several dozen more size categories aabove colossal and below fine. :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 15, 2016, 11:09:31 PM
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Here is what is actually printed.
Quote from: The actual Colossal+ Size Entry that expands on the existing sizes
Quote
Colossal+ Size: Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, ...
He literally misquoted the wrong entry as a strawman
It wasn't misquoted as it was the relevant part of the quote and the rest does not change in any way the statement it makes.
Read the rest if you didn't do so yet:
Quote
Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the oldest epic dragons deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons, as shown on the Epic Dragon Face and Reach and Epic Dragon Attacks tables below.
So even though there is no size larger than colossal, specific creatures (epic dragons) get more damage than other colossal creatures.
Applying this to anything else is gross generalization.
The unquoted part doesn't suggest in any way that there are other size categories above colossal.
You're trying to say the unquoted parts suggests otherwise?
So far it seems you're just trying to divert the attention away from your lack of arguments. Red herring after red herring to hide that you still got nothing.
I'm still asking what leads you to believe that there is a size category larger than colossal that is available to every creature. Do you even know?

Quote
The easy solution is to just allow the immortals handbook
Aye, that one has actual size categories above colossal.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 15, 2016, 11:23:58 PM
But by that logic we can start a chain of cause and effect to well before we're born, and I don't recall this being about whether the world is deterministic or not. :lmao
Maybe we were predestined to discuss it here and now because a butterfly got killed in Africa ten years ago?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 16, 2016, 05:10:37 AM
I kinda lost track of this discussion and will try to answer only to relevant game questions.

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Mao still needed to post the swift action, and just a swift action
Already have. Just not sure which will apply but I've set an order of priority based on what can be done. I'll roll hit/dmg if it ends up with it being an attack and update the energy meter as per the total flight distance traveled. Off t'ill tomorrow night then.
Mao moved another 10 mu.

Quote
Anyway the size changing is not an essential part of the stance. The multiplying to form a mob is and the mecha rules have no clause against multiplication. If anything the copies being tiny sized is a nerf more than anything else.
Something that just stroke me that then it becomes difficult to interpret what the maneuver really does.
It first makes you tiny, which now doesn't happen - then it makes copies of you in the new size, which never changed - You then become a mob of yourself.
The original non-copy mecha never changed size, so even if it made a bunch of tiny copies of itself, it itself isn't tiny, so it maybe cannot form a mob with itself (depends if by all of them having to be the same type you refer to the creature type).
That would be a problem if the "original" is bigger than tiny, but since the marauder started as diminutive, the "original" gets to be carried around by their bigger clones.

EDIT: Something I forgot to reply to.

Quote
No, only case-by-case basis, while a stance needs to be generic. What are the stats for a swarm of imps? Pixies? Marauder mechas? Cats? Tiny animated objects? Or apply the mob rules that already exist and just say that each two tiny creatures count as one small. Done.
I thought it'd be done for this stance by simply giving the swarm subtype to the creature. Maybe a little extra too. Nothing more to it as the swarm subtype has the details of how it affects whatever it is applied to. It doesn't say exactly what are the stats of a given generic swarm of a given creature as a template would but that isn't a concern for a stance since it can apply it to a creature in the same fashion you apply the incorporeal subtype.
Except the incorporeal subtype doesn't reduce your attack options to " a few d6 and that's it".

I want the stance to be able to deal good damage and grapple multiple enemies and still make ranged attacks and a bunch of other stuff. Stuff that the swarm type doesn't do at all but the mob rules do.


If the stance effectively turns the mecha into a mob, the resulting mob cannot be of a size bigger or smaller than the mecha itself is. If it just makes copies of the original's size and mobs them up, that makes a pretty massive amount of large mechas since the stance doesn't account for the fact that the number of copies is meant to be Tiny only.
The mob is a new entity. It's not a transformation. Otherwise the stance would've skipped the multiplication part.

You know, if you're willing to skip out on Arsenal's unique properties and have the cash normal weapons are simply the way to go.

Since Weapons have no cap, they simply are designed for X creature, you can create a Colossal+++ weapon for a mech to wield. Base cost, Weight, and HP all double per Size modification so upgrading to Large, Huge, Gargantuan, Colossal, Colossal+ (mech large), Colossal++ (mech huge), & Colossal+++ (mech gargantuan) creates a x128 modifier with +7 damage upgrades (+8 if you buy your mech some strongarm bracers).
Heh, I would be willing to allow ordering of custom giant "normal" weapons. Unlike arsenal, they would count towards your carrying capacity and have no mecha special properties also meaning enemy DR counts as double unless you're the same size or bigger than your target.

The biggest loss however would be the fact regular weapons don't have very good +attack bonus so they'll be lacking on the acuraccy department.

Notice that ranged weapons would retain their range in feet.

Most WSA become redundant, like adding Flaming to a Gargantuan Mech Greatsword is a +0.04% increase in damage but Splitting is very potent.  Hank's Energy Bow, works out to 8k for the +2, 100gp for the composite, 300gp for masterwork, leaving 14.2k for the unique trait. Upgrading this to a +2 Splitting Colossal+++ Energy Bow in turn produces a total cost of 77,200gp, if Size chances are respected it deals 24d6+StrMod+PowerAttack Force damage which completely bypasses Damage Reduction and you get at least six attacks per turn. @30 Str no-PA that's 564 damage (which isn't even enough to sunder it's self).
Yes, if you start using OP "reverse-engineering" unique magic item you can pull crazy OP stuff. It's still OP and basically one of the most borken things you can do the in the game. That way only lays madness.

Anyway: we actually have rules in play for this, though the question is 'would a giant weapon in the hands of a mecha count as its normal size or mecha size'.

Unless you have a special ability that says otherwise (like Burning Justice's tactical feat), normal size.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 16, 2016, 10:20:27 AM
Yes, if you start using OP "reverse-engineering" unique magic item you can pull crazy OP stuff. It's still OP and basically one of the most borken things you can do the in the game. That way only lays madness.
I didn't reverse engineer the Ability to combine it with another, I reverse engineered the cost to improve the +2 Enhancement Bonus up to a total of +5 which is something you're allowed to do. Then I increased the base cost of the weapon per Size adjustments since weapons don't auto-adjust like worn items do.

I could have gone with a Sharktooth Staff, it costs 2,560gp, deals 24d6 20/x2 slashing, with free Grapple on hit without having to move into their Square. @20Str/11BAB that's still 267 dmg & three Grapple attempts without a single Enhancement or WSA. Harpoons deal a little less but good luck making a mech run away when the specific rules say it has to rip the Harpoons out or win a Strength Check against the Unmovable Rod it's tied to. And Sunder is out of the question while in combat, both a chain and Harpoon have 1,280hp.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 16, 2016, 10:47:15 AM
I think I'm still dazed this round, so I don't think I'll be posting unless someone starts a conversation. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 16, 2016, 11:02:39 AM
That's ok, I'm pretty sure I'm about to be carpet bombed.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 16, 2016, 11:53:59 AM
Unless I actually find a target with my terrible checks, I won't have much to do with my turns actions. I only did the immediate/AoO & skill checks. :p


@Os: I know I've been asking for alot of little edits/retraining for my character already, but would it be cool, again, to switch out Moon Vangaurd's Burning Justice for Martial Machine as that school would pretty much solve my weapon selection problem and I only have 3 Burning Justice Maneuvers that I've literally never used -_-'
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 16, 2016, 04:14:25 PM
(click to show/hide)

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Mao moved another 10 mu.
All right, so her pursue of the marauder took her up to 270 mu.  Staying 30 mu away from the mob if she could reach that position. Wondering what the total distance traveled is to calculate energy loss.
The movement as part of the attack is before she resumes her chase and was included in the counter, if that wasn't clear.

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If I see the mech would be bombers or anything might as well Guard again (leaving me with 28 spirit left)
Again, you can only use spirits at the beginning of your turn.

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I think I'm still dazed this round, so I don't think I'll be posting unless someone starts a conversation.
Nah, you're note dazed anymore. You used the counter when it tried to drag you off, then it was your turn and you got dazed until your next turn, which begins now.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 16, 2016, 04:16:50 PM
Oh right, I forgot that I'd already spent the turn dazed.

So, I guess I'm mostly waiting to find out if Mao's lost them before I actually bother spending actions on this.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 16, 2016, 09:21:24 PM
Yes, if you start using OP "reverse-engineering" unique magic item you can pull crazy OP stuff. It's still OP and basically one of the most borken things you can do the in the game. That way only lays madness.
I didn't reverse engineer the Ability to combine it with another, I reverse engineered the cost to improve the +2 Enhancement Bonus up to a total of +5 which is something you're allowed to do. Then I increased the base cost of the weapon per Size adjustments since weapons don't auto-adjust like worn items do.

I could have gone with a Sharktooth Staff, it costs 2,560gp, deals 24d6 20/x2 slashing, with free Grapple on hit without having to move into their Square. @20Str/11BAB that's still 267 dmg & three Grapple attempts without a single Enhancement or WSA. Harpoons deal a little less but good luck making a mech run away when the specific rules say it has to rip the Harpoons out or win a Strength Check against the Unmovable Rod it's tied to. And Sunder is out of the question while in combat, both a chain and Harpoon have 1,280hp.

An Immovable rod can only support up to 8000 pounds. Aka 4 tons. Your average gundam weights over 40 tons. Assuming you have a way of pressing the rod's button after throwing (and hitting) the harpoon of course.

Mind you, by the "you can tie up multiple items to combine their abilities" logic everybody would be tying some hundreds of alchemist's fire/acid flask to their thrown weapons and then we're descending into dire tarrasque flails madness. :lmao

Unless I actually find a target with my terrible checks, I won't have much to do with my turns actions. I only did the immediate/AoO & skill checks. :p
Aoo misses, you can't see where it went, but you can "hear" the general direction it's heading to.

(Yes, there's no air in space, let's just say you're picking up residual radio signs :P)

@Os: I know I've been asking for alot of little edits/retraining for my character already, but would it be cool, again, to switch out Moon Vangaurd's Burning Justice for Martial Machine as that school would pretty much solve my weapon selection problem and I only have 3 Burning Justice Maneuvers that I've literally never used -_-'

Sure. Would be kinda dickish of me to add a new school and not let the players try it out.
(click to show/hide)

Quote
Mao moved another 10 mu.
All right, so her pursue of the marauder took her up to 270 mu.  Staying 30 mu away from the mob if she could reach that position. Wondering what the total distance traveled is to calculate energy loss.
The movement as part of the attack is before she resumes her chase and was included in the counter, if that wasn't clear.
270 my total yes. If you maintain the same action as before then you end in the same room as Katherine staring at an open airlock into the empty void of space, roll spot and listen checks.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 16, 2016, 09:56:25 PM
Urgh, if it weren't the vast, open void of space, hearing the "general direction" the ship is heading would be more than enough for me to rush after it ><

Last ditch effort then!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 16, 2016, 10:03:29 PM
I mean, if you can work out a heading, I can finally do the obvious and summon mecha. Speed's all I'm good for in a hunt...:T
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 16, 2016, 10:16:27 PM
And then you can super nova without any worry of melting a space station :p


I don't know if I get another chance at a Spot/Listen check after moving outside. I hope so. I'm not even aiming I didn't even roll damage on my attack  :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 16, 2016, 10:17:11 PM
Ketaro: What's the range of approaching delusion again?

Anomander: In case you forgot, Nacht System is the acessory that  grants Stealth, aka can hide without need of cover/concealment, not invisibility, so See Invisibility won't help you here.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 16, 2016, 10:18:41 PM
Currently 5 Mu wide and 75 Mu long.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on October 16, 2016, 10:37:00 PM
Awww, too bad they started to run. My next move was going to be get within range, rain discs with BFC spells, and ask the AA to open the airlock (we ARE in the cargo area after all).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 16, 2016, 11:13:29 PM
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Anomander: In case you forgot, Nacht System is the acessory that  grants Stealth, aka can hide without need of cover/concealment, not invisibility, so See Invisibility won't help you here.
I do remember. I just stated it in case there was invisibility thrown into this as well to increase the spot DC and in case there was other stuff to see.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 23, 2016, 05:14:32 PM
Hey Ols you should type cast your Class Features, or add the entry to your FAQ they all default to one of the four anyway, or if you already did that and I have no clue what all I missed: Great job!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 23, 2016, 10:16:09 PM
Sorry for the delay, was a busy week and weekend.

Amaterasu and Hugo not doing anything for this turn?

Hey Ols you should type cast your Class Features, or add the entry to your FAQ they all default to one of the four anyway, or if you already did that and I have no clue what all I missed: Great job!
Whot? :psyduck
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 23, 2016, 10:51:37 PM
Well, I was waiting on Mao's results to learn if I had a hope of catching up with the  enemy, really.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 24, 2016, 12:25:12 AM
Whot? :psyduck
Cast your Class Features as Extraordinary, Supernatural, Spell-Like Abilities, or even one up WotC and expressly note Natural when appropriate.

I know some of your homebrew things mix and match, like DR that should be Su with Resistances that could be Ex, but it mismatches standards in some areas, poses questions in others, and doesn't blend so well with cross-support that directly interact with those abilities. Like your Beholder did things exceptionally well, but near as I can tell pretty much every Template Class didn't.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 27, 2016, 01:49:14 AM
Bump. Kuro still didn't post actions for Hugo.

Mao and her bots fail to notice the ship's current whereabouts.

Whot? :psyduck
Cast your Class Features as Extraordinary, Supernatural, Spell-Like Abilities, or even one up WotC and expressly note Natural when appropriate.

I know some of your homebrew things mix and match, like DR that should be Su with Resistances that could be Ex, but it mismatches standards in some areas, poses questions in others, and doesn't blend so well with cross-support that directly interact with those abilities. Like your Beholder did things exceptionally well, but near as I can tell pretty much every Template Class didn't.

That's because the Beholder was originally done with big help from another guy about two forums ago.

Anyway at this point that falls under "things I have no time to update" because with the hundreds/thousands of class features I've written it would take days at best to update everything and I simply can't afford that time for minor tags that are irrelevant 90% of the time and can be easily assigned in the 10% of time they count for.

Heck, I'll even let you roll a 1d3 for each currently un-tagged class feature you're interested on and just apply the result (1-Ex, 2-Su, 3-Natural, SLAs are pretty self-evident). It can't be any worse than D&D's standard "Singing well to motivate people is Supernatural, but shutting down the sun instantly by shouting at it is Extraordinary".
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 27, 2016, 01:59:06 AM
Well there really isn't much difference in Ex vs. Su abilities as the only time the difference matters, as far as I can remember, is when the Su is an SLA and needs an SR check. Otherwise they're almost interchangable without any notice.

Os is right. If you, somehow, can't make a character function without distinguishing Ex from Su, then just assign it based on your own opinion and you'll usually always be right except when your DM is right. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 27, 2016, 12:24:59 PM
Heck, I'll even let you roll a 1d3 for each currently un-tagged class feature you're interested on and just apply the result (1-Ex, 2-Su, 3-Natural, SLAs are pretty self-evident). It can't be any worse than D&D's standard "Singing well to motivate people is Supernatural, but shutting down the sun instantly by shouting at it is Extraordinary".
That's almost be just as tedious and then knowing me I'd forget what I rolled before and reroll it each time for some truly chaotic abilities. :p

How about...
Quote from: New FAQ entry
I want to use Empower Spell-Like Ability/Extend Supernatural Ability/Polymorph, is my Class Feature Extraordinary/Supernatural/Spell-Like/Natural/Untyped?
Many Class Features were not appropriately marked, I apologize. Unless noted otherwise follow this order.
* If it copies a spell it's a Spell-Like ability.
* If it seems magical it's Supernatural.
* If it appears to be based on the character's knowledge, choices, or spellcasting it's untyped (thus not a special ability).
* If it appears to reshape your body or grant racial bonuses it's Natural.
* Otherwise if it isn't any of those it defaults to Extraordinary.
Sometimes delegation this will be hard because a Class Feature gives multiple attributes at once, such as DR 5/evil (a supernatural effect) and spell resistance (an extraordinary effect), leave the class feature it's self untyped but apply the appropriate tag to each of the granted abilities.
It's simple & consistent with the descriptions. No need to stoop to WotC's level after all. ;)

Bump. Kuro still didn't post actions for Hugo.
Also, bump bump nudge nudge Kuro.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 27, 2016, 12:42:53 PM
Where are you getting "DR is supernatural" from? It just seems to show up in statblocks untyped.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 27, 2016, 01:05:20 PM
Where are you getting "DR is supernatural" from? It just seems to show up in statblocks untyped.

The rules.
Quote from: RC41 in snippet form
Damage reduction that can be overcome only by aligned weapons is supernatural. ... Weapons that have a magical enhancement bonus of +6 or higher can overcome epic damage reduction. An “epic weapon” isn’t enough. This type of damage reduction is supernatural. ... If a creature has this kind of damage reduction, such as DR 5/magic, it also has the magic strike ability (see page 101). This kind of damage reduction is supernatural. ... When a DR entry has a dash after the slash, such as DR 5/—, no weapon can overcome it. Insurmountable damage reduction is extraordinary. ... Damage reduction that can be overcome only by adamantine is extraordinary; DR that can be overcome only by cold iron or alchemical silver is supernatural.
I'm pretty sure the original source was the 3.0-to-3.5 update book too, the FAQ has a couple entries, but idk when the MM's picked it up. The RC is enough for me.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 27, 2016, 01:27:34 PM
Ah, it's the DR that relies on mystical weirdness that's su.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 27, 2016, 01:36:53 PM
Ah, it's the DR that relies on mystical weirdness that's su.
Pretty much. I think Cold Iron was originally Ex, but that could be my failing memory.

Ahh got it,
Quote from: FAQ, also snipped down
The description for the damage reduction special quality in the MM glossary says damage reduction can be either supernatural or extraordinary, but it doesn’t say which monsters have which kind.
Damage reduction is extraordinary unless the weapon property that bypasses the damage reduction is “magic” (as in damage reduction #/magic) or one of the four alignment qualities (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful), in which case it is supernatural.
For referance as it doesn't appear in the SRD.
Quote from: MM307
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su): A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.
So I guess it was technically the 3.5 MM1 was the original source, it just didn't get correctly expanded on until later.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on October 27, 2016, 04:12:19 PM
Bump. Kuro still didn't post actions for Hugo.

Mao and her bots fail to notice the ship's current whereabouts.

Whot? :psyduck
Cast your Class Features as Extraordinary, Supernatural, Spell-Like Abilities, or even one up WotC and expressly note Natural when appropriate.

I know some of your homebrew things mix and match, like DR that should be Su with Resistances that could be Ex, but it mismatches standards in some areas, poses questions in others, and doesn't blend so well with cross-support that directly interact with those abilities. Like your Beholder did things exceptionally well, but near as I can tell pretty much every Template Class didn't.

That's because the Beholder was originally done with big help from another guy about two forums ago.

Anyway at this point that falls under "things I have no time to update" because with the hundreds/thousands of class features I've written it would take days at best to update everything and I simply can't afford that time for minor tags that are irrelevant 90% of the time and can be easily assigned in the 10% of time they count for.

Heck, I'll even let you roll a 1d3 for each currently un-tagged class feature you're interested on and just apply the result (1-Ex, 2-Su, 3-Natural, SLAs are pretty self-evident). It can't be any worse than D&D's standard "Singing well to motivate people is Supernatural, but shutting down the sun instantly by shouting at it is Extraordinary".

Huh? Pretty sure I did.

Namely, ready the Discocalypse to unleash upon any masses of straggling enemies.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 27, 2016, 08:08:46 PM
Namely, ready the Discocalypse to unleash upon any masses of straggling enemies.
Oh, you posted that on the OOC only! :P

Should be able to update later today.

Heck, I'll even let you roll a 1d3 for each currently un-tagged class feature you're interested on and just apply the result (1-Ex, 2-Su, 3-Natural, SLAs are pretty self-evident). It can't be any worse than D&D's standard "Singing well to motivate people is Supernatural, but shutting down the sun instantly by shouting at it is Extraordinary".
That's almost be just as tedious and then knowing me I'd forget what I rolled before and reroll it each time for some truly chaotic abilities. :p
Well, you would roll on this forum of course, so you wouldn't have to worry about the forgeting part.

How about...
Quote from: New FAQ entry
I want to use Empower Spell-Like Ability/Extend Supernatural Ability/Polymorph, is my Class Feature Extraordinary/Supernatural/Spell-Like/Natural/Untyped?
Many Class Features were not appropriately marked, I apologize. Unless noted otherwise follow this order.
* If it copies a spell it's a Spell-Like ability.
* If it seems magical it's Supernatural.
* If it appears to be based on the character's knowledge, choices, or spellcasting it's untyped (thus not a special ability).
* If it appears to reshape your body or grant racial bonuses it's Natural.
* Otherwise if it isn't any of those it defaults to Extraordinary.
Sometimes delegation this will be hard because a Class Feature gives multiple attributes at once, such as DR 5/evil (a supernatural effect) and spell resistance (an extraordinary effect), leave the class feature it's self untyped but apply the appropriate tag to each of the granted abilities.
It's simple & consistent with the descriptions. No need to stoop to WotC's level after all. ;)
Hmmm, you're right, may as well make it a FAQ entry.
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 27, 2016, 08:44:38 PM
I was thinking of a Monster Classed character using Polymorph and which traits are gained and lost opposed to what Class Features you can steal. But if you think self-parody will help you with whatever your goal is, whatever *shrugs*.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 27, 2016, 09:33:44 PM
That topic was already discussed. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7560.0)

Short answer is, "No, I didn't write hundreds/thousands of monster abilities only for you to be able to cherry pick from them with a single spell".

Still better than "engage in decades/centuries worth of discussion about if something is magic or suffeciently advanced training/SCIENCE!/natural evolution".
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on October 29, 2016, 12:55:37 AM
Yoka and the Code are in the battleship/mecha. Not sure how they're getting hit by the stuff.
Mao's going to counter the attack to try to cancel it and will inform the rest of the party on the marauder's coordinates, as usual.
Maybe Amaterasu has her actions somewhere in there.

What's the distance between Mao and the Marauder/Ship and it and Kath?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 29, 2016, 03:58:23 AM
Just to double check, was concealment rolled against me?

Just reminding cause I don't think I've actually been attacked for some time now and I forgot I had concealment myself till I opened my sheet hehe

Edit: Oh, wait, was my Alert spirit triggered?

And how far away is the enemy ship?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 29, 2016, 09:02:43 AM
I'm... finally working on updating this mecha statblock.

So glad that I didn't do it last week. :lmao

EDIT: Bad, bad things happened to my AC, there. @_@

Also, for some reason everything is now in bold. I don't know why. Sort of fixed.

I kind of lost a turn in all that. Oops.

Full speed double move: uses more energy than I have. Brilliant. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on October 31, 2016, 10:14:23 AM
Just to double check, was concealment rolled against me?

Just reminding cause I don't think I've actually been attacked for some time now and I forgot I had concealment myself till I opened my sheet hehe

Edit: Oh, wait, was my Alert spirit triggered?
If you had Alert up, then it misses Katherine.

And how far away is the enemy ship?
150 mu.

Yoka and the Code are in the battleship/mecha. Not sure how they're getting hit by the stuff.
My bad, I though they were following along.

Mao's going to counter the attack to try to cancel it and will inform the rest of the party on the marauder's coordinates, as usual.
Maybe Amaterasu has her actions somewhere in there.
What's the distance between Mao and the Marauder/Ship and it and Kath?
320 mu and 150 mu.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 31, 2016, 11:24:37 AM
Got to love energy consumption from going fast. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on October 31, 2016, 02:59:26 PM
Will fix my post when I get home tonight then.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on November 01, 2016, 01:57:08 AM
Right I should have and meant to ask this.

Does a spaceship count as an obstacle/object of which can be broken through like trying to break through a wall?  :plotting
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on November 01, 2016, 10:54:49 AM
Does a spaceship count as an obstacle/object of which can be broken through like trying to break through a wall?  :plotting
Maybe take the engine out and shove it towards an asteroid? Without the wrap drive you station's own weapons can finish it off.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on November 02, 2016, 06:08:50 AM
Right I should have and meant to ask this.

Does a spaceship count as an obstacle/object of which can be broken through like trying to break through a wall?  :plotting

No, a spaceship is a mecha.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on November 02, 2016, 07:33:35 AM
Oh well
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 11, 2016, 03:18:01 PM
My position: in limbo. :T
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on November 11, 2016, 09:36:07 PM
I estimate that you begin this round between Mao and Kath. You should be about 150-mu or so from the enemy spaceship and the marauder.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on November 12, 2016, 02:31:14 PM
So, a question. Can anyone remind me what level a two-way portal spell would be (not Gate; I just want to send something through it).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on November 12, 2016, 04:20:20 PM
Portals (http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/portals.shtml).

You can also use Teleportation Circle twice, I suppose. Permanency the whole thing.
That or just create/buy a wondrous magic item that activates Teleport/greater teleport/planeshift as a standard action.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on November 13, 2016, 08:24:49 AM
I was thinking more of a spell to toss something through that will come out somewhere else.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on November 13, 2016, 10:11:04 AM
Teleport object? (it is terrible, I know)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on November 20, 2016, 06:14:44 PM
Was Katherine's Alert and/or Concealment taken in to account vs the attack?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on November 20, 2016, 07:24:04 PM
The Alert was spent blocking some of the ship's anti-air barrage, the grab did not need an attack roll.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on November 20, 2016, 07:53:05 PM
I've realized the only decent counter I had for this is expended and on cool down and I have no energy to recover haha.

Time to tap out.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on November 22, 2016, 12:36:18 AM
Quote
Also just to clarify, is Yoka  wrapping to Mao pilot or mecha? Because mecha are specifically unnafected by wrap.
Always Mao herself. Though I'm not sure if the damage it split considering the android's 1wtM states that the damage goes directly to the android. Not sure if the Muffyns considering the 'Host' to be whoever they are wrapping since the other ability "Control Host" infers that they are trying to control what is already treated as a host and can only affect the one currently being wrapped.

The marauder took the shots, though did Mao get buffed by any charisma drain done for getting hit by the three shots?

Mao deflected Kat away successfully. Not sure how that affects the rest.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on November 22, 2016, 03:25:44 AM
Quote
Also just to clarify, is Yoka  wrapping to Mao pilot or mecha? Because mecha are specifically unnafected by wrap.
Always Mao herself. Though I'm not sure if the damage it split considering the android's 1wtM states that the damage goes directly to the android. Not sure if the Muffyns considering the 'Host' to be whoever they are wrapping since the other ability "Control Host" infers that they are trying to control what is already treated as a host and can only affect the one currently being wrapped.
Damage is being willingly taken by the android, so does not count as an attack to trigger the half damage.

The marauder took the shots, though did Mao get buffed by any charisma drain done for getting hit by the three shots?
Tanked all 3 saves.

Mao deflected Kat away successfully. Not sure how that affects the rest.
Wait, Kat is a projectile now? I guess I need to roll to see if she breaks after being used now then. 50% chance, right?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on November 22, 2016, 05:42:00 AM
Well considering that one feat that lets you throw allies as projectiles, I suppose having the ability to deflect a projectile could work :p

Kat's just being tossed around like a ragdoll this round, gosh

Edit: What was that ability anyways that let the Marauder throw me without needing any checks to hit or move against my will or ect? Not that I actually have any available Counters right now -_-' Oh right, nevermind, was no doubt that autohit Spirit since my Alert was lost vs. the ship. Duh!
Still a cool ability. What School is that!?

Just gonna tank damage, curl into a ball, and hide for a turn or two...
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on November 22, 2016, 06:12:41 AM
Well considering that one feat that lets you throw allies as projectiles, I suppose having the ability to deflect a projectile could work :p

Kat's just being tossed around like a ragdoll this round, gosh
If Mao is smacking Kat too, I want to see a fresh damage roll.

But point is, Kat is not a projectile. Both fling ally and the maneuver used by the Marauder move another creature, including clauses about not provoking Aoos for said movement. Projectiles don't cause Aoos by default, thus flung allies/Kat do not count as projectiles that can be deflected.

The alternative is that everything and their mother is a ranged weapon/projectile and can be deflected. In particular because the Deflection property does not care if you're being hit by an actual ranged attack, just by a projectile/ranged weapon. Reflex save DC 20, block anything for just the price of a +1 weapon bonus? Fuck that noise.

Edit: What was that ability anyways that let the Marauder throw me without needing any checks to hit or move against my will or ect? Not that I actually have any available Counters right now -_-' Oh right, nevermind, was no doubt that autohit Spirit since my Alert was lost vs. the ship. Duh!
Still a cool ability. What School is that!?
Drunken Demon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16054.msg282343#msg282343)

EDIT: And before Anomander asks, yes the Marauder beat Mao's Su resistance.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on November 22, 2016, 06:16:26 AM
FRICKETY FRICK FRICK


So.

For....3 1/2 years now I have not been adding my Dex Modifier to my AC while in my Nanoarmor.

Yay, freakin', me. ;)

Edit: I noticed it when I realized just now that my AC was 1  point too high while looking up bonuses/changes when I Total Defense.

Is ketaro amazing or is ketaro, just....amazing?

Edit2: Fck it, I'm not fixing this right now. It's all getting rewritten after this fight anyways when I update for the new rules  :psyduck
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 22, 2016, 06:01:01 PM
Nuke 'em? I'll do my best! So long as Mao doesn't stand right in the line of fire. :T
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on November 22, 2016, 11:29:38 PM
She's still behind you
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 22, 2016, 11:59:30 PM
She is? Handy.

I'm still going to wait for Ano in case some aid-related skillcheck boost can lead to higher firepower. It's entirely possible and I don't want to make rolls then add random modifiers.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on November 23, 2016, 12:53:38 AM
Kat isn't a projectile. She is deflected for being used as an improvised ranged weapon. She was thrown with an attack roll at range. If she had been used as a meat-stick in melee it would have been an improvised melee weapon. Deflecting clearly isn't only limited to projectiles since "If you succeed, the ranged weapon or projectile deflects away harmlessly.", not only only using the more general term of ranged weapon but specifically mentioning projectiles separately. It likely wasn't meant to work against ray spells and such even though they would qualify as a ranged weapon, probably being meant mostly for projectiles and thrown weapons.

Fling Ally similarly uses the ally as a thrown weapon, not a projectile. Projectiles are the parts shot by the actual ranged weapon.

Quote
Kat's just being tossed around like a ragdoll this round, gosh
A deflection wouldn't add more velocity to Kat's trajectory. She'd just keep going in the direction she was thrown at.

Quote
For....3 1/2 years now I have not been adding my Dex Modifier to my AC while in my Nanoarmor.
Welp.

Quote
I'm still going to wait for Ano in case some aid-related skillcheck boost can lead to higher firepower. It's entirely possible and I don't want to make rolls then add random modifiers.
I was planning to use the rolling counter against the ship's attack to move closer and shoot at it some more. Maybe Parry it too.
Otherwise, it depends on your attack. Fire damage heals her so it may not be much of an issue.
Then I'll probably get in melee and hack at the ship further.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on November 23, 2016, 03:46:39 AM
Kat isn't a projectile. She is deflected for being used as an improvised ranged weapon. She was thrown with an attack roll at range. If she had been used as a meat-stick in melee it would have been an improvised melee weapon. Deflecting clearly isn't only limited to projectiles since "If you succeed, the ranged weapon or projectile deflects away harmlessly.", not only only using the more general term of ranged weapon but specifically mentioning projectiles separately. It likely wasn't meant to work against ray spells and such even though they would qualify as a ranged weapon, probably being meant mostly for projectiles and thrown weapons.

Fling Ally similarly uses the ally as a thrown weapon, not a projectile. Projectiles are the parts shot by the actual ranged weapon.
Kat isn't a ranged weapon either.

Everything can be thrown. But not everything is a ranged weapon. Otherwise, again, Deflection would work against everything and their mother regardless of ranged attack or ray or whatever and everybody and their mother would be packing deflection weapons regardless of class if we follow your ridiculous interpretation of "everything is a ranged weapon because everything can be thrown!".
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on November 23, 2016, 05:02:18 AM
Rays and other spells that use ranged attack rolls are explicitly covered by the epic Exceptional Deflection feat.

However the proper argument here is this part of the Deflect Arrows feat
Quote
Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected.

Katherine is currently Gargantuan in her Nanoarmor right now. Unusually massive ranged weapons tends to take effect around the time boulders are the things you're trying to deflect.

So even if the Maruader needed a ranged attack roll to hurl Kat at Mao, thus (yes) making Kat count as a ranged weapon however improvised, Kat is technically an "unusually massive ranged weapon" in this scenario.

To go further, Deflect Arrows calls out not working on ranged attacks generated by spell effects. So it's very easy to consider Martial Maneuvers to be under the same, if not similar, umbrella for the types of attacks you can not deflect with the feat.


Quote
Everything can be thrown. But not everything is a ranged weapon.
This is moot now, but this is both yes and no. Anything that isn't a ranged weapon automatically becomes an improvised ranged weapon IF thrown. Thems the rules.
Quote from: Improvised Weapons, very first line of the rules section
Any portable object can be used as a weapon in a pinch. In most cases, an object can be wielded either as a melee weapon or a ranged weapon.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on November 23, 2016, 12:17:00 PM
Quote
"everything is a ranged weapon because everything can be thrown!"
As Ketaro said, anything that is throw, whatever it is, becomes an improvised thrown weapon for the purpose of that attack.

Quote
However the proper argument here is this part of the Deflect Arrows feat
That limitation isn't applied to the weapon's special ability. Though unless Kat is currently being on mecha-scale, she counts as a small improvised weapon.

Quote
So it's very easy to consider Martial Maneuvers to be under the same, if not similar, umbrella for the types of attacks you can not deflect with the feat.
Martial maneuvers however are typically using weapon attacks as part of the initiation. It is part of their description and the way they work. A spell that launches a weapon by telekinesis would similarly be deflected.
If that maneuver doesn't actually count as attacking with a weapon, thrown or otherwise, then that's different. In that case I'll maybe parry it instead since it blocks it whatever it is, as long as there is an attack roll.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on November 23, 2016, 11:49:04 PM
As far as Kat's mechanics are concerned, her current Overdrive buff has her on Mecha scale right now.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on November 24, 2016, 12:40:34 AM
Quote
"everything is a ranged weapon because everything can be thrown!"
As Ketaro said, anything that is throw, whatever it is, becomes an improvised thrown weapon for the purpose of that attack.
Kat isn't an object either, let alone a portable one, so it still doesn't apply. Creatures are not objects and objects are not creatures.

Quote
So it's very easy to consider Martial Maneuvers to be under the same, if not similar, umbrella for the types of attacks you can not deflect with the feat.
Martial maneuvers however are typically using weapon attacks as part of the initiation. It is part of their description and the way they work. A spell that launches a weapon by telekinesis would similarly be deflected.
If that maneuver doesn't actually count as attacking with a weapon, thrown or otherwise, then that's different. In that case I'll maybe parry it instead since it blocks it whatever it is, as long as there is an attack roll.

Quote from: Drunken Demon-Oni Sign "Complete Massacre on Mt.Moe"
As part of this maneuver you grab an adjacent enemy without need of any attack roll, then swing them around a few times and throw them up to 450 feet plus 45 feet per IL. This movement doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. If they impact in  another creature (this time needing an attack roll), they stop there, otherwise they keep going towards the nearest surface and crash there. It causes a blast dealing damage equal to two Climb checks from you in a 30 radius burst (you can reduce this radius to a minimum of 0 feet) that also trips victims and makes flying creatures fall to the ground, Reflex save for half and negate the trip. If you succeeded on the attack roll, both the thrown victim and the target are not allowed the Reflex save. You can throw an unattended object too.
The words "weapon" or "improvised" are never used.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 24, 2016, 12:54:37 AM
Well, bodies are objects.

It seems a bit strange to be getting into the specifics of characters not being objects so not being thrown weapons so not being improvised ranged weapons so not being deflected... when simply "too big" solves it. If someone can use a player as an improvised ranged weapon, then the rules don't really go against it.

It's a bit convoluted to have maneuver-specific exceptions to if something counts as a projectile. Just get two random archers and Deflect Arrows doesn't matter. :T
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on November 24, 2016, 01:22:12 AM
In D&D creatures and objects are quite different.

In particular you can technically throw any object, but you can't throw a creature at all unless you have a special ability for that. Heck, even just grabbing a creature is one of the most complicated multi-step proccesses on the game, in contrast with simple move action for grabbing an object.

It's a bit convoluted to have maneuver-specific exceptions to if something counts as a projectile. Just get two random archers and Deflect Arrows doesn't matter. :T

Yeah archers can easily launch multiple arrows per round.

Standard action single-attack maneuvers not so much.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on November 24, 2016, 01:59:48 AM
Creatures, and bodies, are not objects until dead/inanimate.

Quote
It seems a bit strange to be getting into the specifics of characters not being objects so not being thrown weapons so not being improvised ranged weapons so not being deflected... when simply "too big" solves it
"Too big" is essentially what I said too is why the deflect isn't able to work here. Cept I also quoted the feat also saying stuff that is "too big" can't be deflected.

What is the point in arguing this, Anomander? You know very well that this isn't and never was an intended or even read as-is method of using the Deflect Arrows feat.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on November 24, 2016, 02:19:55 AM
Quote
The words "weapon" or "improvised" are never used.
I verified the glossary and a ranged weapon is only limited to projectile-based weapons and thrown weapons.You mention an attack roll, throwing, the distance the thing is thrown and the damage it deals. Splash thrown weapons have similar mechanisms but your intent is for  the maneuver to not count as a weapon attack so it won't benefit from anything that benefits weapon attacks of any kind. Like, say, the Mighty upgrade. It is just the description that makes it look a hell of a lot like it allows you to use a creature as a thrown weapon. All good.
It uses a ranged attack, but isn't a ranged weapon (ranged attacks mention requiring a ranged weapon but there are additional complementing rules for other kinds of ranged attacks). Deflecting weapons cannot deflect it.
Standard/fullround action single-attack maneuvers that actually use a ranged weapon would be deflected, though.

Quote
You know very well that this isn't and never was an intended or even read as-is method of using the Deflect Arrows feat.
Again, this never was the Deflect Arrows feat.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on November 24, 2016, 02:28:00 AM
Quote
The words "weapon" or "improvised" are never used.
I verified the glossary and a ranged weapon is only limited to projectile-based weapons and thrown weapons.You mention an attack roll, throwing, the distance the thing is thrown and the damage it deals. Splash thrown weapons have similar mechanisms but your intent is for  the maneuver to not count as a weapon attack so it won't benefit from anything that benefits weapon attacks of any kind. Like, say, the Mighty upgrade. It is just the description that makes it look a hell of a lot like it allows you to use a creature as a thrown weapon. All good.

Correct, the damage is all from the Marauder's Climb skill checks.

If I wanted it to count as a ranged weapon, I would've saved myself the work of commenting the thrown creature doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity during the movement, since you know, javelins/arrows don't cause those either. Plus a bunch of other details that wouldn't make any sense if the thrown creature suddenly counted as a ranged weapon.

This was almost as absurd as your argument that spells are Su abilities that allow SR except when they don't.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on November 24, 2016, 02:58:49 AM
Not that obvious considering even abilities that specifically throw creatures such as fling ally also mention they do not provoke AoO and some abilities that create ranged thrown weapons, such as the fire seeds spell's acorn grenades, have their damage set by something like their caster level.
Though looking at maneuvers that work essentially the same way, such as the throw-maneuvers of Setting Sun, it seems that under the same basis those wouldn't be ranged weapons.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on November 30, 2016, 03:52:52 AM
Derp, completely missed that there were pending actions from Mao.

Anyone else waiting for something in specific?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on November 30, 2016, 03:59:05 AM
I'm waiting for a new sun to rise about.....100 feet to my left. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on November 30, 2016, 07:56:04 AM
To be clear, the parry is to block the maurader's Kathrine shot. She is not throwing her back.
The counter shot is at the ship and is done with the gunlash, which is power/concussive/can inflicts Charisma drain and so on. Not sure how to read this differently.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on November 30, 2016, 09:10:12 AM
Mao parried Katherine into Protectora's hull (since the explosive momentum has to go somewhere), then stealth ship Alert'd the gunlash shot.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on November 30, 2016, 10:00:11 AM
Ah, gotcha! Thought the ship referred to the enemy ship since the rest of the sentence suggests it.
Knowing this I'll be able to update her actions when I'll have time to later today.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 30, 2016, 11:35:21 PM
Was there a sixth level maneuver called Burning Justice at some point? Because I've got one on my sheet called that but it's not in the class. O_o
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 01, 2016, 12:18:00 AM
Eeerrr, Burning Justice is the name of the school, so no, there was never a maneuver with that name.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on December 01, 2016, 03:27:05 AM
Now that's a puzzler. Maybe it was a placeholder for a Burning Justice maneuver that never got filled.

I just noticed:

Quote
Drill Rocket Punch
This maneuver affects a line with width equal to your size and infinite length. The attack only stops when it hits a solid surface that is not a creature. Roll to hit as normal against every enemy caught in the line, but this attack ignores half the opponent's Natural Armor bonus to AC, Armor bonus to AC,  and DR.
Now that would be the fast way to travel through space! Point at Ragol and you're there in an instant!
Careful when aiming skyward or you'll never know where you end up.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 01, 2016, 05:48:17 AM
It doesn't say that YOU move that distance. It says the maneuver affects a line of that length. It's an infinite range lightning bolt.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 01, 2016, 06:12:08 AM
What Ketaro said is correct.

Shame on Anomander for thinking that a RAWKET PAUNCH makes the mecha itself move. It's a classic among classics.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on December 01, 2016, 11:12:41 AM
Hahaha! Oh wow. Correct. Shoulda gone to bed. I had this Gurren Laggan visualization of the drill-punch and the robot following it through the sky.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on December 01, 2016, 11:31:12 AM
So...

I don't suppose there are like ANY spells up to 6th level that let me just through stuff through a viewing screen and get that stuff teleported?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 03, 2016, 01:49:55 AM
Bump.

Raineh and Soro still to act.

In related news, Soro hasn't logged in the forums for almost a month now.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 03, 2016, 03:59:07 AM
So...

I don't suppose there are like ANY spells up to 6th level that let me just through stuff through a viewing screen and get that stuff teleported?

No, I don't think so.

For stuff similar to doing that, all I can think of are Ring Gates, too.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 03, 2016, 09:16:17 AM
Level 5 Hell's Artificial Sun offers a save, but without a type, and dispel magic doesn't work like that in the first place. Uh.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on December 03, 2016, 12:18:10 PM
Aye. I'll specify it is a fortitude save. Though I don't think the Artificial Sun can be used like that since the description mentions that the extra effects can be done on each round after the one you initiate it on, though there's nothing that limits it to doing more than once on those rounds. Since it is a round and not a turn, multiple turn effects doesn't help it (though stuff like Time Stop that gets you through extra rounds would).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 03, 2016, 04:33:14 PM
I suppose that makes it effectively impossible for anyone to ever initiate Septentrion then. <_<

And everything else has been reworded since I last used the thing. Not that it matters, because they can make DC 35 fort saves and the combined damage of both works out at less than one of your normal attacks. :/
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on December 03, 2016, 05:35:10 PM
Without a bunch of stuff akin to Time Stop it would be very hard to initiate Septentrion within one "turn". Normally it would take 7 rounds to initiate it. It takes a while but it can be done. Septentrion isn't all that hard to prevent but if a fight lasts long enough and the initiator isn't stopped then time's up and the place is effectively leveled.

The only thing that's been reworded is the notion of "disruption check". Instead of a new term I stuck to simply calling it a dispel check. It otherwise works the same. Specified it is a fortitude save. Otherwise there's nothing new.

Yours is an area attack that is harder to negate. And can daze/stun. It'll be even stronger if you get the Special Attack  super robot upgrade.
There are other ways to make it better still. Make it grabbing and be a good grappler and you snare them in the sun.
The SRW system makes it easy to make strong regular attacks, and offers a bunch of means to avoid them altogether. It has options for other offense tricks that would complement Divine Flame maneuvers that aren't mostly dependent on making weapon attacks.
The control rod in SRW is can be made to be very strong, among other things.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 03, 2016, 06:23:48 PM
It requires you to stand around for seven rounds with a relatively static attack and not be knocked out of it due to getting hit and failing a roll. That you then get to unleash it seven times in one go doesn't help much with the activation criteria.

Currently, Super Attack wouldn't help with anything at all: it asks for non-weapon-using maneuvers that the Super Robot knows. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 03, 2016, 07:03:08 PM
And control rods are weapons! :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 03, 2016, 07:53:06 PM
And control rods are weapons! :p

Well, that's not so relevant for things like HAS, which has no control rod component, at least.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on December 03, 2016, 11:42:00 PM
Quote
It requires you to stand around for seven rounds with a relatively static attack and not be knocked out of it due to getting hit and failing a roll. That you then get to unleash it seven times in one go doesn't help much with the activation criteria.
You do not actually have to stay in one place. Only needs a standard action to keep it up. And the effect can be moved around, you can get targets merely by increasing it and especially with the level 1 option. In our current situation both the marauder and its ship are easy to get together within an AoE.

Quote
Currently, Super Attack wouldn't help with anything at all: it asks for non-weapon-using maneuvers that the Super Robot knows.
Ah, yes. That the super robot itself knows, not the super pilot. It'd work if the Super Pilot maneuvers were both traded for Divine Flame though that probably wouldn't be optimal with the areas you try to cover.

Quote
And control rods are weapons! :p
Didn't mean that it would work with it. Only that using control rods would work well with her current build. Considering the way all your attacks merge into one and that SRW loves to apply great buffs to a single attack.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 04, 2016, 12:16:06 AM
... the important part is seven turns of constantly feeding into one effect without getting hit and failing a save. Presumably with characters possessing somewhat less mobility than this one.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on December 04, 2016, 03:30:17 AM
Bunch of ways to make it happen. Total cover, hiding, being in the sun itself to make it harder to be attacked and so on. It isn't meant to come up often as its an extra anyway.
I could alternatively have it activated at anytime after you've got at least two kinds of suns charged into it by fusing it with something like Yatagarasu Dive to have it trigger a sun-split that does Septentrion but with all the different kinds of level effects that you used so far, to a maximum of seven. Or just remove it altogether.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 13, 2016, 11:02:21 AM
... how do you trip in space? :huh
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on December 13, 2016, 11:12:42 AM
You can't. There is no "down" and you cannot trip a flying thing but downward applies when there is a down.

I've no time but I'll try to grapple the marauder and limit its actions or something. We cannot grapple a ship.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 13, 2016, 11:28:14 AM
Just to clarify, the Marauder is already inside the unknown ship.

Remind me to add triping rules for space combat.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 13, 2016, 04:03:11 PM
That Won't Work Twice would cut it down to just the one attempt/damage, yes?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 13, 2016, 07:10:57 PM
That counter only works against stuff that hit you in the previous round.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 13, 2016, 08:08:42 PM
When you consider the amount of force applied and being spun around a bunch crazy fast, the closest thing to call being unable to orient your self and perspective as you're flung away is probably "tripped".

It's not that tough an image to picture.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 13, 2016, 09:01:37 PM
That counter only works against stuff that hit you in the previous round.

... so it's effectively useless in this game, right. Surviving one round then hoping the enemies use the same attacks on you the next round... it might be guaranteed to work, but talk about situational for the only thing in the school that actually counters.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 13, 2016, 11:04:47 PM
What do you mean useless?

You make yourself immune to their weapon rather than just a maneuver. Os used it to get immunity to one of Mao's best weapons. He could use it on my swords and become immune to literally my entire kit. Hell, using That Won't Work Twice against your control rod could likely make some one immune to every maneuver that requires your control rod.

Shits too strong in a lot of annoyingly niche cases :3
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 13, 2016, 11:24:31 PM
That it's increasingly confusing what it can be used against isn't helping. :/

But there goes my only chance at avoiding another OHKO that isn't "skip next turn" and has the exact same effect. There's no point rolling anything.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 14, 2016, 01:11:43 AM
Amaterasu appears to have Counter Rocket Punch among her current maneuvers, which should be able to block one of the beams.

Block the most damaging one, that's 171 damage but Amaterasu still has DR 10 after rending so that's 151 damage. Mecha holds on barely, repair with Guts this turn.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 14, 2016, 01:33:16 AM
I just noticed that Drill Rocket Punch (Burning Justice 6th level) does not list what your damage is suppose to be.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 14, 2016, 01:48:00 AM
... I forgot I even had that maneuver. Hell, I forgot it existed. Think I just skipped it whenever I saw rocket punch. >_>;
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 14, 2016, 02:08:40 AM
I'm about to post, but heads up Os, I'm not even sure if some of my attempted action is possible atm, but not because rules but because....yanno....I'ma just post it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 14, 2016, 03:35:03 AM
Actually there's a rule for that.
Quote from: Battleships
Mecha Transport: A battleship can load and carry one mecha of its own size, or two mechas of one size category smaller, or four mechas of two size categories smaller, and so on. Entering or exiting a battleship is a move action on the part of the mecha. The battleship can prevent  any unfriendlies from entering.

So in one side it would take an extra move action from Katherine to get inside, and even then since she counts as unfriendly the enemy ship can just slam shut the hatch on her way.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 14, 2016, 04:20:13 AM
Then I guess "stand in the doorway" is the plan for this round.

Good to know!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 14, 2016, 10:06:59 AM
That counter-rocket punch roll is successful.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 14, 2016, 10:22:11 AM
... is Valour simply doubling or the "roll everything twice" doubling? I forgot. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on December 15, 2016, 05:17:53 PM
Right, so, I have a question.

In order to warp away, must the ship actually move or see where it's going in any way, shape or form? Or can it just form a "bubble" of some sort and disappear?

EDIT: Also, does its E-field count as a force effect or something?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 15, 2016, 06:46:36 PM
It's the Warp Speed option from the Heaven Sailing Dragon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7160.msg171678#msg171678) tactical feat, so replicates Teleport with bigger range and only carrying anything inside itself.

E-field does not count as a force effect.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on December 15, 2016, 08:19:05 PM
And lest I'm mistaken, in order to initiate a maneuver, you can't be grappled or dazed or paralyzed or anything like that.

I think I know what I must do.  :smirk
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 15, 2016, 09:26:22 PM
And my question? I'm not sure if I should have rolled more or if I would just multiply that... :T

... it's been a long time since I looked at the base rules and I'm not sure if non-crit multipliers (like... the valour WSA, I think) work as crits or simple multiplication.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 15, 2016, 09:49:45 PM
For simplicity's sake, I'll rule it's a simple doubling of the base damage.

And lest I'm mistaken, in order to initiate a maneuver, you can't be grappled or dazed or paralyzed or anything like that.

I think I know what I must do.  :smirk

Do notice that battleships are immune to grapple by default, so hentai tentacles won't help.

If you could paralyze/stun it would work though.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on December 15, 2016, 11:59:57 PM
It counts as a teleport, though, so technically a dimensional anchor would stop it. It also cannot move from its position or it cancels the entire thing, so if Kat manages to make the ship move she'll ruin its warp charge-up as well. :)
A bullrush would also work and that's maybe what I'll have Mao do it didn't get tossed around by Kat's attack. Maybe using Talk with your Fists to try to have it do something else than flee next round. Amaterasu initiating Buster would also automatically move it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 16, 2016, 12:45:46 AM
The "you cannot move" part means just that-the ship can't choose to move. Just like a rock can't move on its own, but others can move it.

Reading it as "moving cancels the effect" is as extrapolating as "Nothing can move you while charging up".

Dimensional Anchor would block it fine though.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 16, 2016, 12:49:23 AM
I wasn't trying to push the ship anyways. I'm attacking the Marauder.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on December 16, 2016, 01:10:48 AM
He's inside the ship, though, so that won't work.
Quote
Reading it as "moving cancels the effect" is as extrapolating as "Nothing can move you while charging up".
That's true. It could actually be better interpreted as meaning nothing can move it from its position while it is charging.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 16, 2016, 01:18:05 AM
I'm pretty sure the Maruader never took action to enter the ship. It's last action was getting in the way of your attacks.

Edit: Yeah, I've reread it a couple times the last couple days and it really doesn't read as the Marauder having actually gotten inside the enemy ship, only that the ship opened it's hatch to allow entry.

If Os clarifies that the Marauder did actually enter the safety of the enemy ship, then I suppose my attacks have to go against the ship. In that case, I just need to manage a combined 155+ damage to actually push the enemy ship into the Protectora's own open hatch we left the station from.

Or shove the ship into the station for collateral damage because the door is too small  :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 16, 2016, 02:15:42 AM
Yes, the Marauder moved inside the ship. That's why it didn't attack anyone on the party this turn.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 16, 2016, 03:41:01 AM
Well then I guess Kat is legit trying to throw a spaceship at Mao.

Catch!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on December 16, 2016, 07:14:56 AM
The "you cannot move" part means just that-the ship can't choose to move. Just like a rock can't move on its own, but others can move it.

Reading it as "moving cancels the effect" is as extrapolating as "Nothing can move you while charging up".

Dimensional Anchor would block it fine though.
Does that include making Reflex saves?  :smirk
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on December 16, 2016, 07:15:56 AM

And lest I'm mistaken, in order to initiate a maneuver, you can't be grappled or dazed or paralyzed or anything like that.

I think I know what I must do.  :smirk

Do notice that battleships are immune to grapple by default, so hentai tentacles won't help.

If you could paralyze/stun it would work though.

I just want to go on record here saying you've just ruined things for Spacethulhu and Space Krakens everywhere.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 16, 2016, 08:02:32 AM
Yeah, we can't have this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKjZuykKY1I).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 16, 2016, 11:56:51 AM
Hmmm, you're right.

Battleships now cannot initiate grapples, but others can initiate grapples against it.

Also clarified the tactical feat to make Warp Speed teleport drop your movement speed to zero while charging.

The "you cannot move" part means just that-the ship can't choose to move. Just like a rock can't move on its own, but others can move it.

Reading it as "moving cancels the effect" is as extrapolating as "Nothing can move you while charging up".

Dimensional Anchor would block it fine though.
Does that include making Reflex saves?  :smirk

No. Didn't you get the memo? Paralyzed/stunned/unconscious creatures are still allowed reflex saves. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on December 16, 2016, 01:05:09 PM
Though dimensional anchor doesn't require a save, only hitting the ray.
And Hugo has the Strike spirit, so if he wants he cannot miss.

I've had the drone start the round with a tagvalve shot to ruin any Alert spirit the ship may have used. Mao has options that vary with range depending on where the ship would be.

Also, what is the size of the ship? I'm not sure I've read it before.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 16, 2016, 05:47:43 PM
Oh yeah, there's a slim chance the Yatagarasu is bigger than the ship. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on December 16, 2016, 06:11:38 PM
Hmmm, you're right.

Battleships now cannot initiate grapples, but others can initiate grapples against it.

Also clarified the tactical feat to make Warp Speed teleport drop your movement speed to zero while charging.

The "you cannot move" part means just that-the ship can't choose to move. Just like a rock can't move on its own, but others can move it.

Reading it as "moving cancels the effect" is as extrapolating as "Nothing can move you while charging up".

Dimensional Anchor would block it fine though.
Does that include making Reflex saves?  :smirk

No. Didn't you get the memo? Paralyzed/stunned/unconscious creatures are still allowed reflex saves. :p

Not what I meant. If the ship makes a Reflex save, it was made to move. Does that cancel the maneuver?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 16, 2016, 06:50:57 PM
Hmmm, you're right.

Battleships now cannot initiate grapples, but others can initiate grapples against it.

Also clarified the tactical feat to make Warp Speed teleport drop your movement speed to zero while charging.

The "you cannot move" part means just that-the ship can't choose to move. Just like a rock can't move on its own, but others can move it.

Reading it as "moving cancels the effect" is as extrapolating as "Nothing can move you while charging up".

Dimensional Anchor would block it fine though.
Does that include making Reflex saves?  :smirk

No. Didn't you get the memo? Paralyzed/stunned/unconscious creatures are still allowed reflex saves. :p

Not what I meant. If the ship makes a Reflex save, it was made to move. Does that cancel the maneuver?

Things that can't move can get reflex saves. Therefore, a reflex save doesn't necessitate movement. Somehow.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on December 16, 2016, 08:34:45 PM
Eh, fair point.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on December 30, 2016, 10:55:16 AM
Darn, forgot to add Sure Strike bonus to my rolls. Oh well, that's only a +4 anyways.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 30, 2016, 11:56:13 AM
Well, that's a lot of things going on at once. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on December 30, 2016, 01:28:48 PM
Yeah, now you know why Hugo usually hangs back and leaves you guys to do the heavy lifting in combat. If he pulled this kinda crap every fight, people would be gunning for him faster than you can scream "INITIATIVE".

EDIT: Also why my posts take forever and a half in combat.  :p

EDIT2: Hey Osle, is there an in-universe reason for why people can't just pirate Techniques off the internet (aside from "that would break WBL like a plastic teaspoon")?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 30, 2016, 09:49:26 PM
Here's hoping you had a great Christmas and wish you a happy New Year!

Yeah, now you know why Hugo usually hangs back and leaves you guys to do the heavy lifting in combat. If he pulled this kinda crap every fight, people would be gunning for him faster than you can scream "INITIATIVE".

EDIT: Also why my posts take forever and a half in combat.  :p
Hmm, if you don't mind me asking, how are you making ten thrown attacks in a single round? As a standard action? :psyduck

EDIT2: Hey Osle, is there an in-universe reason for why people can't just pirate Techniques off the internet (aside from "that would break WBL like a plastic teaspoon")?

Technique aren't just raw info, they demand special exotic volatile components to be stored in learnable disk forms, and said disks are consumed as part of the creation proccess.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 30, 2016, 11:58:17 PM
Alternatively: space IT guys created a file format that explodes after use and got people to like it.

So probably Apple.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on December 31, 2016, 01:19:55 AM
Second alternative: every valid technique copy has its own DRM and you must be connected online to validate it every time it is cast.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 31, 2016, 02:58:51 AM
Wow so we can defeat every martial school simply by unplugging the router!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on December 31, 2016, 10:18:01 AM
Here's hoping you had a great Christmas and wish you a happy New Year!

Yeah, now you know why Hugo usually hangs back and leaves you guys to do the heavy lifting in combat. If he pulled this kinda crap every fight, people would be gunning for him faster than you can scream "INITIATIVE".

EDIT: Also why my posts take forever and a half in combat.  :p
Hmm, if you don't mind me asking, how are you making ten thrown attacks in a single round? As a standard action? :psyduck

EDIT2: Hey Osle, is there an in-universe reason for why people can't just pirate Techniques off the internet (aside from "that would break WBL like a plastic teaspoon")?

Technique aren't just raw info, they demand special exotic volatile components to be stored in learnable disk forms, and said disks are consumed as part of the creation proccess.

There are a number of ways to do that. One would be to have that goddamn disc launcher I asked for Christmas. Another would be to cast Telekinesis and refluff it however the heck I want (probably get better range on that, too). Course, if using Telekinesis, that means each of those rolls gets another +2, because I'd be using my Intelligence mod rather than Dexterity. Take your pick, basically.  :D

EDIT: Don't you mean as part of the copying process?
EDIT2: How does that explain at-will items? You can explain 1/day items with "battery needs recharge, can't be replaced" but what about things like an unlimited wand of CLW?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on December 31, 2016, 10:52:35 AM
In related news, Soro hasn't logged in the forums for almost a month now.
Closer to two months actually, pretty much unheard of on my end but there is a funny story about that that starts off with, "I'm an idiot".

... how do you trip in space? :huh
you can trip a flying creature forcing them to stall. Without gravity they won't plummet to the ground but they still have to spend a Move Action (provoking an AoO) to reorient them selves as well as all the other appropriate modifiers. Think of if like a round house kick that sends the mech into a head-over-heels spin, with no air friction it'll just keep spinning as the pilot vomits until thrusts fire long enough to counter the spin.

Technique aren't just raw info, they demand special exotic volatile components to be stored in learnable disk forms, and said disks are consumed as part of the creation proccess.
Like Pokemon.

Watch out or the bad guys will HM01 you.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 31, 2016, 10:53:53 AM
Power sources that can be recharged with what you have on hand or recharge themselves? Or just very good battery life so that it would functionally be unlimited until you're stranded in a desert for months.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on December 31, 2016, 12:16:39 PM
Solar panels.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on December 31, 2016, 02:25:56 PM
It's magic?

Really, generation vs use comes to mind. Say you have a infinite energy generator but it only creates one watt per hour, attached to that is a battery that can store up to 24w and then the actual device that you use is attached to that. The device in this case is a single setting 12w laser beam, the "wand" can store up to two uses before depleting it's battery and because the generator is so slow the laser cannot run off the generator directly and it has to wait until the battery stores enough energy to use again.

Like wise you could claim Spells, similar to a step motor, are a very complicate but standardized system of using magical energy to produce expected outcomes. And the entire standardized system only works on whole values like 1 or 2 but not 1.26473. Metamagics and such essentially hack the system producing various none-standard results. Like Fireball can only channel up to a 10, but if you've read Charmander's nice how-to guide called "Empower Spell" he teaches you how you swap the energy conducting sections of Fireball with the ones you'd normally use for Delayed Blast Fireball resulting in about a +50% increase in energy release.

There are healing effects out that (*cough *lay on hands) where you are allowed to split the total energy how you like. But when it comes to using standardized spells, you need to provide the standardized energy first. And for that, as mentioned, you may have to wait until the battery is ready based on whatever it's using to generate magical energy.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 01, 2017, 04:20:44 PM
Happy new years everyone!
Still waiting on knowing whether the ship got moved since it affects whether I have range to my stuff or not. The holiday period is cutting my time short though I can always post a list of actions for each case, and the one applying being whichever applies to the position of the ship in the end.

Welcome back Soro! Just noticed you gave each of your followers their own WBL. You might be interested to know that being NPCs their WBL isn't the same as those used for PCs. NPCs use the one on page 127 of the DMG. Bottom right corner. However, since they are followers, they do not come with any of their own gear. Followers are entirely geared and fed by the leader, so whatever they are equipped with comes out of Baha's pockets.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 01, 2017, 05:32:17 PM
Yeah but
Quote from: Wealth and Gear
176135 budget. 10,189 meseta left
Quote from: WBL
Level 13 gets 110,000gp.
Level 14 gets 150,000gp.
Level 15 gets 200,000gp
You think Mao has 186,324gp at level 13 so meh.

Maybe since most of them have actual jobs they earn their own income or something. They've been scrutinized before and their cash they spend on them selves has never came up (probably because they don't actually participate in fights). But now that you mentioned it, maybe Mao should sell almost seventy thousand meseta worth of items off she's currently wearing and bringing into Encounters so she meet WBL some time soon... Happy New Years to you too!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 01, 2017, 08:02:35 PM
Quote
You think Mao has 186,324gp at level 13 so meh. But now that you mentioned it, maybe Mao should sell almost seventy thousand meseta worth of items off she's currently wearing and bringing into Encounters off and meet WBL some time soon...
Osle is very generous on the rewards.

88,000 base (we started level 12, I recall)
+10,000 Fang Banthers rewards
+20 000 Payment for quest completed
+10 000 Payment bonus for retrieving one of Maia's cores
+48 135 Dragon boss reward
+11,748.60 of the 58 743 split 5-ways between the party after the dome ambush (we were 7 back then but when time came to split the loot two were MIA/KIA)
= 187,883.60 total gains
-176135 listed wealth  (186,324 was the sum of her listed wealth and what remained to be spent out of that wealth, which doesn't make sense)
=11,748.60 missing wealth

Thanks. I thought I kept good track of Mao's gains but apparently missed some meseta after all. Looks like I forgot to add-in the dome gains, as they match. Those are the ones I remembered so maybe there's some other minor gains I forgot and will have to check in depth later when I've time to read through the threads.

Your own total wealth before expenses should be about the same as Mao's, iirc, minus the 48,135 of the dragon reward since you all got a special weapon instead while Mao grabbed the meseta. Remember? I had relinquished the Zaxe to Amaterasu for the cash. We confirmed that split of the rewards more than once when people kept forgetting who had taken what.

You'll also remember you have a mission reward coming for Baha for his aid against the Esper. And you've got the loot of the Esper as well on top (if there's anything notable) minus the staff that's going to the AA for study (meaning no gains for the party off that one except what could perhaps be counted as bonus xp rewards for possibly fulfilling mission objectives since Osle mentioned giving no XP for winning fights, only for completing objectives). Mao never asked nothing for herself out of the whole enterprise.

Quote
Maybe since most of them have actual jobs they earn their own income or something.
That's not how it works. The rule for followers is that they have no wealth. Even if for some reason they had starting wealth despite being followers they would have gotten the WBL of an NPC, not a PC's. Since not everyone knows the Leadership feat all that well I'm not surprised that you gave them wealth; what does surprise me is that you gave them PC WBL.
Even though I thought I'd scratch the undead minion feat for leadership myself as Osle suggested long ago and it would benefit me to have followers get their own gear I'd prefer that this rule for followers didn't get changed for this campaign.

Quote
They've been scrutinized before and their cash they spend on them selves has never came up.
It just did. Not everyone looks at the details of a sheet while remembering all the rules applying to them. Which is why I pointed it out.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 01, 2017, 08:27:52 PM
Wait, so everyone should have earned about 50k since we started? (After not counting dragon money cause I took a weapon)
I only have 30k tracked. Am I short 20k cause I've spent nothing since the start (cept for some spa tickets :p )
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 01, 2017, 09:01:54 PM
I know just the big lines of what you guys did while you were all at the Spa thing. Not sure if Hugo's activation of the special location was a reward or an expanse or both, though if it was a reward then it'd only be a reward for him alone unless you guys got something out of the thing. Not sure if the Spa access gave you passive buffs of some kind. I'll be going through the episode during the read if only for the giggles.

Though you'd all have gotten at least 41,748.60 so far in meseta. The 10k for the Fang Banthers was only for Mao and Baha after the battle on Ragol during the monolith's extraction.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 02, 2017, 12:00:02 AM
Quote
Maybe since most of them have actual jobs they earn their own income or something.
That's not how it works. The rule for followers is that they have no wealth.
Actually that's exactly how it works.
Quote from: DMG
Followers don’t demand a share of treasure, although they depend on the PC they follow to equip them and keep them fed.
This does not say they have no wealth so you're wrong before you even posted, again. Running theme I know *sigh*

And it does not prevent Skills Checks. It simply states they depend on the PC to feed/dress them, like a serf or indentured slave. So like professionally contacted pimping, each week they can make a Profession Check and specifically earn money which they can keep. And all your rule mongering only states that they cannot spend this money on gear/food directly and have to hand it off to the person who makes those decisions if they want it.

Which also brings us to the next point of whogivesafuck. Your long winded post that blames Ols for breaking WBL ultimately boils down to I have an extra unnoted 99,883gp. The followers have a combined net worth of 44,500gp (and that's including unspent portions of the allocations) so I can afford all their gear and still have an extra 55,383gp and you're just pissing away my time over nothing.

Instead of failing to "correct" someone because of your terrible competitive ego, you could have actually posted something meaningful like "hey Lost you have like 55k more to spend on stuff!" It would have been a nice Christmas present / New Year resolution for you to try being a team member at some point and helping out your follow players, but I guess that won't happen.

Wait, so everyone should have earned about 50k since we started? (After not counting dragon money cause I took a weapon) I only have 30k tracked. Am I short 20k cause I've spent nothing since the start (cept for some spa tickets :p )
That'd be a question for Ols, technically treasure tables pay out more than WBL expects because you're expected to expend gold on forgotten consumables. Like renting a room ten years ago shouldn't show up on your monthly statement.

But, I already planned out my level up like three months ago according to the 150k limit and I'm already waaayyy over that in wealth before our final payment for the recent activities. If Ols wants to be a stickler to his rewards, I can loan out some.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 02, 2017, 12:52:34 AM
Quote
Quote
Followers don’t demand a share of treasure, although they depend on the PC they follow to equip them and keep them fed.
Instead of failing to "correct" someone because of your terrible competitive ego, you could have actually posted something meaningful like "hey Lost you have like 55k more to spend on stuff!" It would have been a nice Christmas present / New Year resolution for you to try being a team member at some point and helping out your follow players, but I guess that won't happen.
If you read that they depend on the PC to equip them as "they have wealth, but give it to the PC so it can then give it to them", then sure. All right. If that's how it is then perfect! Works for us both.
You still gave them full PC wealth instead of NPC wealth.
...I just pointed out something I noticed. Be it good or bad. If you make a mistake that's hindering you and I actually notice it I'll let you know. After we've all updated our sheets for level 14 it'll be easier to check up everyone's sheets for potential mistakes.
I just gave a sum of our gains and told you about how much you made. You're still trying to pick a fight. I made you figure out you missed out on a bunch of rewards and you still find reasons to get pissed off. Please calm down.

Quote
Which also brings us to the next point of whogivesafuck. Your long winded post that blames Ols for breaking WBL ultimately boils down to I have an extra unnoted 99,883gp. The followers have a combined net worth of 44,500gp (and that's including unspent portions of the allocations) so I can afford all their gear and still have an extra 55,383gp and you're just pissing away my time over nothing.
I'm not complaining about Osle's rewards. I'm grateful. You were the one who complained that our WBL was off the chart because you needed something to get back at me for finding something that was off. Still, it could indeed have been a mistake and it would have been helpful of you to point it out even if it was the only thing to fix. So thanks. I got more cash out of it too so that's win-win for both of us.  :)

You're welcome for the extra wealth. If it pays for their stuff then it is all good. I'd say the extra cash was well worth your time.

Want to make peace and hit the new year on good terms? That'd be great.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 02, 2017, 02:01:50 AM
We got money and chance to spend it? I didn't realise we ever had chance to go shopping for stuff like that... xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 02, 2017, 04:32:37 AM
Well your time to shop was a bit short between getting back to the station after fighting the dragon and getting dragged off to a hotspring for a fanservice episode with Katherine which quickly led back into the current encounter upon our return :p

Thank you tho, Anomander! Even just finding out I was 10k short on rewards is great~
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on January 02, 2017, 05:11:10 AM
Here's hoping you had a great Christmas and wish you a happy New Year!

Yeah, now you know why Hugo usually hangs back and leaves you guys to do the heavy lifting in combat. If he pulled this kinda crap every fight, people would be gunning for him faster than you can scream "INITIATIVE".

EDIT: Also why my posts take forever and a half in combat.  :p
Hmm, if you don't mind me asking, how are you making ten thrown attacks in a single round? As a standard action? :psyduck

EDIT2: Hey Osle, is there an in-universe reason for why people can't just pirate Techniques off the internet (aside from "that would break WBL like a plastic teaspoon")?

Technique aren't just raw info, they demand special exotic volatile components to be stored in learnable disk forms, and said disks are consumed as part of the creation proccess.

There are a number of ways to do that. One would be to have that goddamn disc launcher I asked for Christmas. Another would be to cast Telekinesis and refluff it however the heck I want (probably get better range on that, too). Course, if using Telekinesis, that means each of those rolls gets another +2, because I'd be using my Intelligence mod rather than Dexterity. Take your pick, basically.  :D
Ok, I'll be considering Telekinesis for now, we can talk about a late Christmas Catapult later.

Also one Dimensional Disk and Hugo's Choke Hold got through last-ditch anti-air barrage. I think only the later demands extra rolls from you.

EDIT: Don't you mean as part of the copying process?
EDIT2: How does that explain at-will items? You can explain 1/day items with "battery needs recharge, can't be replaced" but what about things like an unlimited wand of CLW?
Hmmm, ok, I think that means we'll go with the high-tech semi-magic super DRM. :P
(let's see if I can finally update the campaign fluff notes this month)

SorO:
Great to see you back! And technically yes followers and cohorts are supposed to have NPC wealth, I overlooked that, but since you'll be leveling up shortly and the followers have mostly been spending time on the background there's no hurry to fix it.

Anomander: Ship got moved 30 mu.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 02, 2017, 03:26:10 PM
SorO: Great to see you back! And technically yes followers and cohorts are supposed to have NPC wealth, I overlooked that, but since you'll be leveling up shortly and the followers have mostly been spending time on the background there's no hurry to fix it.
Meh, already 95~100% fixed. When I listed the values that was full allocations of wealth not what they actually spent.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 02, 2017, 09:06:45 PM
Hugo's second spell may not need additional rolls:

The round it takes effect: target gets -2 penalty on attacks, checks, saves, and AC. Along with a 20-foot penalty to speed.
No saves on the first effect.
Fortitude saving throw or be paralyzed for 3 rounds on the second round if SR doesn't block.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 03, 2017, 08:41:49 AM
Spell resistance.

Also, Osle, how does someone get anti-air guns like that? I mean... At least one of those rolls was a crit. I get that the AC for the discs is probably pretty low, but shouldn't it at least be rolled against my rolls?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 03, 2017, 11:05:35 AM
Also, Osle, how does someone get anti-air guns like that?
idk either but I want them. :D

Also, it's all the same target right? Because he rolled 3,7,4,20,10,12,4,9 and only two missed, the attack bonuses varied and not in the style of BAB/Natural weapons suggesting more than one creature's bonus was used. All through, reading into his odds (tripling anchor's chance of working so no warp drive) we're supposed to fight it to win before it escapes anyway :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 03, 2017, 11:21:46 AM
Nah, it looks like he was rolling those attacks versus the AC of the thrown disks. He literally was shooting the actual objects mid-flight and was only needing to hit the AC of the disks and not have to do an opposed roll versus the attack rolls from Hugo.

All allegedly as an immediate and/or free action. Probably Parry maneuver. That's all I know of that lets you do that infinitely or till you miss. But those are not rolls against AC. Or words got mixed up and the captain of the enemy ship has bigger numbers than even Mao.

I have no idea and I don't want to start inferring or assuming what's going on just by peeking into the rolling thread. It's just going to annoy me. I'll just ignorantly await death in blissful silence :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 03, 2017, 12:01:59 PM
If we manage to capture them after all we could interrogate the captain/crew to find out how they did it.
If the idea is to wreck all the disks he could have plugged the Area property on the defensive weapon to get them all with one immediate action. I had a similar idea in mind myself that I was going to implement in Mk5. Particularly because of the new Martial Machine discipline.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 03, 2017, 01:35:12 PM
Note to self: load the INVISIBLE discs next round.  :smirk
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2017, 03:07:51 AM
Spell resistance.

Also, Osle, how does someone get anti-air guns like that? I mean... At least one of those rolls was a crit. I get that the AC for the discs is probably pretty low, but shouldn't it at least be rolled against my rolls?

Twin-linked+Defensive (fire two weapons as an immediate action)+Counter feat a bunch of times (extra immediate actions that can only be used for Pilot Feats and firing defensive weapons).

Also yes, they were targeting the disks after they left your possession so using disk AC.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 07, 2017, 07:51:54 AM
Wow that's legit shooting bullets mid-flight. Well, can't complain. This is so touhou for me.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2017, 11:28:05 AM
Not sure if they got destroyed or it is some kind teleportation that looks like you're exploding. Probably should run a Knowledge Tech on that one to be sure.
To be safe, Amaterasu can use Crow Sign "Yatagarasu Dive" to locate the ship. If they did escape, at least we might have an idea of where they fled off to. She could also shoot at them no matter where they are out of spite. (She could also teleport herself to them but that might be too risky, depending on where they may be Nevermind. Thought she knew Rocket Dive).

Was charisma drain inflicted?
Also, how do the Knowledge skills translate for the high tech campaign? Technology knowledge would fit in architecture and engineering? Arcana, weirdly, could also be the one since it includes constructs (not sure if that works in this setting, though. If you know about magic stuff you understand how androids work?).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 07, 2017, 11:56:10 AM
Sorry, Katherine was making a snide remark.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2017, 12:44:11 PM
Oh yeah, Yatagarasu Dive doesn't need LoS. Pity I'm in the wrong stance to shoot the enemy (badly). :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 07, 2017, 01:13:56 PM
Gosh, you people. They escaped.

Capture.

Dumb androids lacking senses of humor :v
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2017, 01:47:03 PM
Quote
Oh yeah, Yatagarasu Dive doesn't need LoS. Pity I'm in the wrong stance to shoot the enemy (badly). :lmao
Oh yeah, Yatagarasu Dive doesn't need LoS. Pity I'm in the wrong stance to shoot the enemy (badly). :lmao
No problem. It'll last 2 rounds so you can still change your stance next round and attack. Assuming they haven't exploded and died already.
Baha can similarly do it as well and charge an attack for it too.

Quote
Sorry, Katherine was making a snide remark.
I didn't say that in reaction to Kath's remark. I try to consider every disappearance in a puff of smoke as an escape, because that's what they usually are.
Like the scene our characters witnessed, such magic tricks often rely on flashy theatrics to divert your attention. Yes, it looks like they exploded, but not everything that explodes is destroyed. Amaterasu and Baha can explode several times a day no problem.  :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 07, 2017, 02:10:35 PM
Amaterasu and Baha can explode several times a day no problem.  :p
You're goddamn right.

Specially with that tongue action there.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 07, 2017, 03:15:12 PM
They don't actually explode :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2017, 04:19:20 PM
Otherwise, when the marauder escaped he had some more warriors causing mayhem on the way and in other rooms. The hunters left behind are probably still busy with them.
With grappling/dismemberment and similar we could perhaps trap one for interrogation.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 07, 2017, 04:43:32 PM
If you're inside a ship and it's under a Dimensional Anchor effect, does that block ALL teleportation inside the ship or only for the ship itself?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2017, 04:54:36 PM
They don't actually explode :p

Fall of Great Stars. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2017, 05:42:59 PM
Quote
because Hugo had foreseen the possibility he might need passengers, there is some arsenal space left over that is pressurized, complete with an enviro-suit Baha can use.
That's an idea! Currently the only way to have passengers is to either use a ship or have a pilot with a high enough light weight capacity to carry the passengers; Convenient for me but would it be better if the way to acquire "passenger seats/space" would be by spending arsenal space or similar? Using the carrying capacity of the pilot makes sense but at the same time it's a bit weird.
It could perhaps be done both ways too, to give the more intellectually-inclined pilots means to carry their fat cat familiar with them.  :tongue
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 08, 2017, 12:02:46 AM
Mostly I rolled with what made sense.

Premise 1: the cockpit can't be the only pressurized part of the robot. Therefore, its insides must be pressurizable somehow.
Premise 2: the insides of a robot must be accessible somehow in a way short of dismantling it. Ergo, there must be mechanisms to open it up.
Premise 3: unused arsenal space can hold theoretically anything, so why not an enviro-suit?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 08, 2017, 01:55:14 AM
And even if none of that works, Baja is small enough to squeeze in.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on January 08, 2017, 03:46:57 AM
Was charisma drain inflicted?
Ah, yes, 7 drain.

Also, how do the Knowledge skills translate for the high tech campaign? Technology knowledge would fit in architecture and engineering? Arcana, weirdly, could also be the one since it includes constructs (not sure if that works in this setting, though. If you know about magic stuff you understand how androids work?).

I really should properly lay down that kind of details. 
(click to show/hide)


If you're inside a ship and it's under a Dimensional Anchor effect, does that block ALL teleportation inside the ship or only for the ship itself?
Only the ship itself.

Mostly I rolled with what made sense.

Premise 1: the cockpit can't be the only pressurized part of the robot. Therefore, its insides must be pressurizable somehow.
Premise 2: the insides of a robot must be accessible somehow in a way short of dismantling it. Ergo, there must be mechanisms to open it up.
Premise 3: unused arsenal space can hold theoretically anything, so why not an enviro-suit?
Actually, arsenal space is supposed to represent more the modularity of a mecha, aka how easy is to attach extra devices on the run. In particular stuff like Armor and Shield and cape most certainly aren't being attached inside the mecha's core frame. And that's also why battleships gets crappy arsenal space despite having superior carrying capacity.

Besides it's a classic mecha show trope for the main character to open the cockpit to allow free loaders in, from Gundam to Evangelion to TTGL. Gets somewhat tight sometimes.

You can wave away pressurization problems with either Hugo having put his space suit and helmet on (Char could do it in the middle of combat) or some force field that keeps the air in or just don't care about such minor details like Simon does when fighting in space. :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 08, 2017, 11:42:19 AM
Meaning the whole struggle to Dimensional Anchor the ship was pointless. If for whatever reason the Marauder's pilot had access to teleportation, he/she got away as soon as he entered the ship.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 08, 2017, 01:23:58 PM
Ols likes his technology offering Spells, maybe he has something with Trace Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm). But if so I'd probably skip actually teleporting there, I'd use a trapped relay station to teleport to then teleport else where from there.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 08, 2017, 02:29:31 PM
Quote
I really should properly lay down that kind of details.  *details*
It is a bit farfetched but I can see why considering the mechas are what a campaign may have the most of... though at the same time I do not see much of a point to it.
There isn't that much to know about each mecha types separately, and most of it could be just general knowledge ("the divine pilot is a mecha that does cleric magic in a weaker machine" and we just about covered the entire subject. Keeping all the mecha knowledge into one knowledge category would make more sense (could be complimented with knowledge in other categories, such as spellcraft/K.arcana for arcane pilots, say, while things like Einst would have their own category).
Mostly because most of the less recognizable abilities used by a mecha come from its pilot. So the variety of the knowledge checks would be linked to the character's knowledge of what the enemy mecha's pilot is. A Religion knowledge check on a divine robot to find out it can use a petrifying gaze because its pilot is a medusa wouldn't work but a knowledge nature after seeing the robot use the amplifier supported gaze could lead to the character recognizing that the pilot of the enemy mecha is a medusa, for example, and thus figure other abilities it may have.

Though I was mostly referring to tech stuff knowledge, like seeing a generator and recognizing it is one and perhaps have a general idea of how it works (though knowing how something works and knowing how to use it isn't necessarily the same). Chemistry stuff could perhaps fall into the Craft Alchemy skill but machines sort of have their own thing. Or like arcane understands magical phenomenons and the planes understands phenomenons related to the planes it would help understand whats happening to your office's network.
Short of having yet another knowledge skill titled Knowledge (Technology) or even a few for different kinds of tech, which could be just as fine considering there *is* a mighty lot of stuff to know.

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Meaning the whole struggle to Dimensional Anchor the ship was pointless. If for whatever reason the Marauder's pilot had access to teleportation, he/she got away as soon as he entered the ship.
Technically shouldn't it also affect whoever is piloting the ship? If someone inflicts negative levels to a mecha, isn't the pilot the one eating them?
Or a dimensional anchor could affect a mecha and everything within, but those who leave the ship can teleport away normally.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 08, 2017, 04:55:20 PM
That's why I asked Osle earlier if it affects the ship alone or also those inside it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 08, 2017, 06:08:53 PM
Ya'll, if the Marauder could teleport to safety there wouldn't have been a need for an escape ship.

Don't you dare "not necessarily" me. We all know it would have if it could have. :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 08, 2017, 06:15:06 PM
Not if he had to hand something to someone else first. Lotsa possible ifs there.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 08, 2017, 06:26:17 PM
There'd be no need to hand off anything if the Marauder could teleport itself to safety with said thing. Gosh.

I also just remembered I had a bunch of gaps tearing through the entire area the ship had been when it blew up and forgot those are suppose to do damage every round so I missed several rounds of huge damage here haha. -_-'
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 08, 2017, 07:02:34 PM
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Don't you dare "not necessarily" me. We all know it would have if it could have. :P
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Not if he had to hand something to someone else first. Lotsa possible ifs there.
There is the point that there could have been some kind of mage/object with teleportation onboard, teleporting away people inside.
The ship tried to warp away all the same - because why waste a perfectly fine ship when you can avoid it. Not very likely but still possible.
We're missing the usual escape pod, though. Where's the escape pod? Unless the ship self destructed as well... which probably isn't the case considering he likely used all his immediate actions against Hugo's disks and it would need one to do so.

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I also just remembered I had a bunch of gaps tearing through the entire area the ship had been when it blew up and forgot those are suppose to do damage every round so I missed several rounds of huge damage here haha. -_-'
Maybe it exploded faster.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 08, 2017, 07:26:36 PM
Considering all possibilities is fine but y'all starting from the outlandish side right now methinks  :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on January 08, 2017, 09:41:48 PM
Meaning the whole struggle to Dimensional Anchor the ship was pointless. If for whatever reason the Marauder's pilot had access to teleportation, he/she got away as soon as he entered the ship.

Well Marauder's fate aside, you got some loot and it's one less advanced stealth ship on the enemy's side. :p

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I really should properly lay down that kind of details.  *details*
It is a bit farfetched but I can see why considering the mechas are what a campaign may have the most of... though at the same time I do not see much of a point to it.
There isn't that much to know about each mecha types separately, and most of it could be just general knowledge ("the divine pilot is a mecha that does cleric magic in a weaker machine" and we just about covered the entire subject. Keeping all the mecha knowledge into one knowledge category would make more sense (could be complimented with knowledge in other categories, such as spellcraft/K.arcana for arcane pilots, say, while things like Einst would have their own category).
Mostly because most of the less recognizable abilities used by a mecha come from its pilot. So the variety of the knowledge checks would be linked to the character's knowledge of what the enemy mecha's pilot is. A Religion knowledge check on a divine robot to find out it can use a petrifying gaze because its pilot is a medusa wouldn't work but a knowledge nature after seeing the robot use the amplifier supported gaze could lead to the character recognizing that the pilot of the enemy mecha is a medusa, for example, and thus figure other abilities it may have.

Though I was mostly referring to tech stuff knowledge, like seeing a generator and recognizing it is one and perhaps have a general idea of how it works (though knowing how something works and knowing how to use it isn't necessarily the same). Chemistry stuff could perhaps fall into the Craft Alchemy skill but machines sort of have their own thing. Or like arcane understands magical phenomenons and the planes understands phenomenons related to the planes it would help understand whats happening to your office's network.
Short of having yet another knowledge skill titled Knowledge (Technology) or even a few for different kinds of tech, which could be just as fine considering there *is* a mighty lot of stuff to know.
Characters already have too few skill points as it is. That's why I don't want to make new skills.

On the other hand putting all mecha stuff in a single Knowledge skill kinda makes it the uber Knowledge skill.

Plus in regular D&D you need different Knowledge skills to tell a medusa from a regular snake from a fiendish medusa from a half-dragon medusa from a zombie medusa, it also makes sense you need different knowledge skills to properly identify different types of mechas.

For non-mecha tech just assume the closest mecha equivalent. So a regular generator would be like identifying a real robot, while a getter ray generator would be super knowledge, and an eldritch power battery would be arcane knowledge, and so on. Mind you anybody could tell it's a generator at a glance like anybody in regular D&D can tell a sword at a glance, knowledge will give you details.


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Meaning the whole struggle to Dimensional Anchor the ship was pointless. If for whatever reason the Marauder's pilot had access to teleportation, he/she got away as soon as he entered the ship.
Technically shouldn't it also affect whoever is piloting the ship? If someone inflicts negative levels to a mecha, isn't the pilot the one eating them?
Or a dimensional anchor could affect a mecha and everything within, but those who leave the ship can teleport away normally.

Captain went down with the ship, not that Mao could tell going around pulverizing the remains first. :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 08, 2017, 09:46:26 PM
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Most of the remaining debris and what are revealed as corpses charred by the explosion only to be frozen by the space vacuum are reduced to fine dust by Mao's waves. What appears to be empty space proves to be empty space and the energy dissipates harmlessl in the void. But a tiny object among the remains proves durable enough to resist the attack.
I'll note two things; One is that her attack can only target enemies, so objects are not affected. Second is that Mao's attacks are affected by Mercy and so cannot ever kill anyone. If the Captain was still alive and floating in there somewhere he would be pretty knocked out but not dead.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on January 08, 2017, 09:59:50 PM
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Most of the remaining debris and what are revealed as corpses charred by the explosion only to be frozen by the space vacuum are reduced to fine dust by Mao's waves. What appears to be empty space proves to be empty space and the energy dissipates harmlessl in the void. But a tiny object among the remains proves durable enough to resist the attack.
I'll note two things; One is that her attack can only target enemies, so objects are not affected. Second is that Mao's attacks are affected by Mercy and so cannot ever kill anyone. If the Captain was still alive and floating in there somewhere he would be pretty knocked out but not dead.
1-As already discussed, inanimate objects are valid definitions of enemies. Like "alcohol was his greatest enemy".
1.1-Corpses count as objects.
2-Mercy does not apply to things that are not alive, otherwise would be kinda bothersome you cannot cut food or start a cooking fire or ignite the gunpowder of a bullet or burn fuel.
3-Mao made it pretty explicit to be looking for the ship's whereabouts, believing it had not been destroyed but was all an elaborate light show. What if it was hiding behind an illusion/hologram of debris? Would Mao take that risk?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 08, 2017, 10:18:59 PM
Objects count as enemies only if the attacker considers them to be enemies. Bits of dead stuff are just dead and scraps are just scraps. I already mentioned that once an enemy is dead she has no enmity for it anymore. There is no point having feelings for something that isn't there anymore. If she tries to wreck an item it'll be made clear. She's aiming at the empty space to hit something stealth'd. Trying to feel the impact against something that doesn't seem to be there, not against debris that already is.
Mercy indeed does not apply to things that are not alive. I only mentioned it in case there was something still alive in there. She wouldn't have killed them if any.

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3-Mao made it pretty explicit to be looking for the ship's whereabouts, believing it had not been destroyed but was all an elaborate light show. What if it was hiding behind an illusion/hologram of debris? Would Mao take that risk?
She doesn't have to worry about that. She ignores concealment, mirror images and similar miss chances. Mao can target an empty square and use something that targets enemies and if there are enemies there she'll ignore their miss chance. If something is there that she doesn't consider to be an enemy, she'll skip it. If Mao considers something that isn't clearly an enemy/ally as being one I'll be sure to mention it. Just like the warriors from before.
Either way it doesn't matter much in this case, as she is trying to hit a massive ship with a line attack. Holograms to look like a debris wouldn't change the space it occupies. Her line attack covers but a fraction of the space the ship occupied. There is a big lot of debris and corpses that weren't even covered by the line's area of effect. The idea was just make sure the space wasn't occupied.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 08, 2017, 10:40:44 PM
 All you need to say is you're simply not trying to destroy what remains of the exploded ship (upon quickly realizing it is indeed real wreckage) as salvaging it as possible evidence feels very Mao-ish. You're just waving a stick about through the wreckage like a blind person with their cane feeling his way around.

At the least Os didn't say you destroyed what is apparently our loot sitting in the midst of the wreckage that would've been the worst -_-'

Katherine probably did more damage as she waited two entire rounds after the ship exploded to dismiss the gaps eating everything  :-\
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 08, 2017, 10:59:05 PM
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All you need to say is you're simply not trying to destroy what remains of the exploded ship (upon quickly realizing it is indeed real wreckage) as salvaging it as possible evidence feels very Mao-ish. You're just waving a stick about through the wreckage like a blind person with their cane feeling his way around.
Pretty much.
For the salvaging, quite so! And that's the way to do it properly, really. Every single bit inspected. Good thing we've got labs and very fast bots doing the hard work.
When you run into forensics of that scale, you hope you find your answers quickly.
Unless we find the corpse of the ship captain and find the loot on him I doubt we'll find anything. The hard bit was likely the blackbox, which is super useful in itself. Or not. We'll see.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 08, 2017, 11:55:36 PM
Meanwhile, Amaterasu knows astrophysics! Woo! xD

Occam's razor: they're probably dead, given the ship exploded. Things get too complicated too quickly if you treat something like that as a ruse given the firepower that chased them.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 09, 2017, 12:18:00 AM
Aye. But you never know. A limb can suffice to clone someone so a frozen charred corpse could contain enough information to pull it off. Some folks are tougher than others too (such as surviving the 1000 feet fall by tanking the damage).
It didn't launch the escape pod and in the rules when a mecha is destroyed it automatically ejects you off. Perhaps there is the unwritten clause that you can switch that off without having to get the Glory in Death feat for option of using an immediate action to choose not to eject. Which would make sense.
Not sure if the pod is meant to carry only the pilot or also his passengers + other stuff in the mecha within his light weight capacity.
A Mecha stored in a ship that goes down may be all right within the wreckage if it was attended and ruined if unattended object. Or they are automatically ejected.
There is no clause for the crew and other passengers within the ship getting a pod if it gets destroyed, which may well mean that anyone, of any level, within a battleship that is destroyed would automatically perish. Good thing the Protectora is one tough girl!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on January 09, 2017, 05:27:07 AM
Objects count as enemies only if the attacker considers them to be enemies. Bits of dead stuff are just dead and scraps are just scraps. I already mentioned that once an enemy is dead she has no enmity for it anymore. There is no point having feelings for something that isn't there anymore. If she tries to wreck an item it'll be made clear. She's aiming at the empty space to hit something stealth'd. Trying to feel the impact against something that doesn't seem to be there, not against debris that already is.
Mercy indeed does not apply to things that are not alive. I only mentioned it in case there was something still alive in there. She wouldn't have killed them if any.

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3-Mao made it pretty explicit to be looking for the ship's whereabouts, believing it had not been destroyed but was all an elaborate light show. What if it was hiding behind an illusion/hologram of debris? Would Mao take that risk?
She doesn't have to worry about that. She ignores concealment, mirror images and similar miss chances. Mao can target an empty square and use something that targets enemies and if there are enemies there she'll ignore their miss chance. If something is there that she doesn't consider to be an enemy, she'll skip it. If Mao considers something that isn't clearly an enemy/ally as being one I'll be sure to mention it. Just like the warriors from before.
Either way it doesn't matter much in this case, as she is trying to hit a massive ship with a line attack. Holograms to look like a debris wouldn't change the space it occupies. Her line attack covers but a fraction of the space the ship occupied. There is a big lot of debris and corpses that weren't even covered by the line's area of effect. The idea was just make sure the space wasn't occupied.

No, you don't get to turn enemy/ally effects into uber scanners that chirurgically bypass stealth without causing any unwanted collateral damage. It's the whole point of hiding in plain sight/disguise, you are right there, others simply don't perceive you as an enemy. So either Mao is paranoid that there's a ship hiding around, or isn't, and since your command was to blast away to try to flush out a ship out of hiding, then everything that isn't clearly an ally (aka other party members) will count as an enemy (although the mercy trick would work if there was anything living left, but there isn't).

And no, there was no big lot of debris mentioned anywhere. Only tiny pieces of debris (which included the corpses), and after Mao's safety check, only one unknown object. Next time you may want to use less destructive methods of searching than shooting mecha-scale weaponry.

Besides you already have two prisioners waiting for interrogation, so not like you're spoiled for choice.

Not sure if the pod is meant to carry only the pilot or also his passengers + other stuff in the mecha within his light weight capacity.
A Mecha stored in a ship that goes down may be all right within the wreckage if it was attended and ruined if unattended object. Or they are automatically ejected.
There is no clause for the crew and other passengers within the ship getting a pod if it gets destroyed, which may well mean that anyone, of any level, within a battleship that is destroyed would automatically perish. Good thing the Protectora is one tough girl!

In case you forgot, this game's very first battle had your ship exploding and Bahamut flying out on their own, so that's how I've been rolling with. Should clarify it on the ship thread though. Also extra ejection pods on a ship for crew sounds nice. Freeloaders will demand extra arsenal.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 09, 2017, 05:46:08 AM
I always, safely, assumed that unless specifically mentioned a battleship does not have escape pods, much less ones that autoeject the pilot (especially when ships don't have pilots they have captains and an entire manned bridge). For reals, have you ever seen such kinds of escape pods in a spaceship in any Mecha anime?  :P

Mecha only get em for free cause it's easy to fit. For it to reasonably work on a battleship you need the entire bridge rigged to autoeject upon destruction. That looks silly, but it also looks really difficult to implement as a "standard" feature.

It could totes be a ship captain specific arsenal option tho, ya? The ships blowing up, the captains command chair turns into an escape pod and he escaped going down with his ship like the bloody coward that he is!!!!! :shakefist

Going down with your ship oughta be a class feature ;)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 09, 2017, 10:52:32 AM
So the entire mass of debris and corpses of a really big ship was condensed into a 5-mu-wide/high area, after it exploded, which unusually disperses stuff around.
You're the physics specialist, so if that makes sense to you then all right. If the area with junk was so condensed she could have then easily aimed at open space that the ship would have had to occupy, which was the idea.
Though I'll remember I can now use enemy-only area effects on objects she doesn't consider to be enemies next time we'll need to clear something in case there are invisible enemies. If they apply when I never intended them to they may as well be useful when we need them to. I don't mind changing the action if the way I meant it to be used is invalid, still.
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Besides you already have two prisioners waiting for interrogation, so not like you're spoiled for choice.
Hugo could have taken care of any we'd find here. Mao isn't an expert in interrogations. She just asks questions that rely on actual willingness to give answers.
The big disappointment though is that at first it's only bits of junk in space and then after posting actions to attack through the empty bits in case there is something there suddenly are previously unmentioned corpses (which says more than bits of debris that could have been blasted off the ship after the bombardment). Though you maybe rolled our automatic spot checks for us on that one in secret. In which case kudos. If she had spotted the corpses before attacking things would have been different, given her obsession to get limbs and bits to interrogate.

I can help with the maps from then on, and ask you for every measurements and distances that the party can see. Keeping track of where everything was got difficult for this fight. I'd confirm the map with you round to round to make sure it's accurate.

Something I just noticed and am not sure if it was intentional, the arsenal accessories for radars include a perception mode and damage. Are the perceptions that aren't already specifying that they depend on line of effect (such as blindsense and darkvision) bypassing line of effect? Or perhaps they work as emanation auras, going around obstacles? It is an important detail since otherwise some of them, like sensing things that aren't touching the ground then essentially just become a limited blindsense that isn't called blindsense. As for the extra damage, it mentions that it does not stack with multiple picks of the radar accessory that grants it (two level V radars won't stack) but that mention is currently only specific to multiple selections of the same radar pick, rather than all radar accessories. So a Radar V's extra damage would stack with the extra damage of a Radar IV, which probably isn't the intent.

Another question about the Fighter transformation upgrade:
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If it could already fly that (base) speed increases by 1,5 and becomes perfect maneuverability.
As is it either means that you increase the speed by 1.5 its value (30-mu becomes 75-mu) or by 1.5-mu (30-mu becomes 31.5 mu). Was this meant to be a straight multiplier (30 mu becomes 45 mu) rather than an addition?

About the Ancient Sensor upgrade: -Creatures of a specific alignment chosen when this upgrade is gained. Can be taken multiple times for different alignments.
By specific alignment, do you intend this to be a given alignment axis (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful and one of the two neutrals) or an alignment such as Chaotic Good?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 09, 2017, 09:09:13 PM
Unrelated to actual mechanics, wouldn't the Yatagarasu be the natural choice for giving characters a lift? That cockpit is never going to have space concerns. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 09, 2017, 09:55:34 PM
I do wonder how many mechas could fit in there, if a mecha that isn't a ship could store other mechas.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 09, 2017, 10:57:41 PM
Another question about the Fighter transformation upgrade:
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If it could already fly that (base) speed increases by 1,5 and becomes perfect maneuverability.
As is it either means that you increase the speed by 1.5 its value (30-mu becomes 75-mu) or by 1.5-mu (30-mu becomes 31.5 mu). Was this meant to be a straight multiplier (30 mu becomes 45 mu) rather than an addition?
It's a comma not a period so it's increased by 1.

Then "5 and becomes perfect maneuverability" is actually a polymorph effect that changes Fiveand into Perfectmaneuverability.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 09, 2017, 11:26:29 PM
Unrelated to actual mechanics, wouldn't the Yatagarasu be the natural choice for giving characters a lift? That cockpit is never going to have space concerns. :lmao

If they don't mind being potentially squeezed by Ammy shifting in her seat, sure.  :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 09, 2017, 11:33:03 PM
Anomander. 1.5 times the value of 30 is 45 not 75. You're just nitpicking at Os' grammar now.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 09, 2017, 11:46:27 PM
An actual increase of 1.5-mu (30-mu becomes 31.5 mu) is absurd, but an actual increase of 1.5 times the base speed vs increasing the speed to 1.5 its value are both very possible. I thought I'd finally use that transformation but noticed it specifically affects the base speed, which likely implies it applies before the Agility speed increases and all.
So exactly how the Fighter transformation is intended to affects the flight speed is asked before I default with the sum om the base speed alone.

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Anomander. 1.5 times the value of 30 is 45 not 75.
Yes. That's what I said. It specifies an increase by 1.5 (which is 45). 30 + 45 = 75.

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You're just nitpicking at Os' grammar now.
When I wrote my sheet I applied the multiplier to the entire speed, which is inferior to the sum. Then saw it was applying to the base speed, and then that it was an addition instead of a straight multiplier.
I rely a lot on what is written, which should also be a concern to anyone writing handbooks. Grammar errors (if there is even one) that affect the math are rather important.
Which is why I'm just double checking his intent for the Fighter's speed to make sure everything is fine. Not trying to prove anything or complain; just making sure.
For example, Amaterasu also read it and multiplied the speed change as a multiplier on the entire speed. Although that isn't what the text says, it was both our first understanding when we read the text. If it is indeed meant to be an addition on the base speed alone before the other increases, then our Fighter forms were much faster than they should have been all along. If it is meant to apply to the entire speed, then they were slower than they should have been,
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 10, 2017, 12:07:56 AM
I do wonder how many mechas could fit in there, if a mecha that isn't a ship could store other mechas.

Well, she's Colossal, so one medium-sized mecha if she goes in at human size. But that would be out of her carrying capacity. :T

Unrelated to actual mechanics, wouldn't the Yatagarasu be the natural choice for giving characters a lift? That cockpit is never going to have space concerns. :lmao

If they don't mind being potentially squeezed by Ammy shifting in her seat, sure.  :lmao

Deceptively Innocent Form!

I choose to believe she takes one of those approaches to piloting that mostly involves standing around in the cockpit looking badass, not button-mashing the world's least intuitive interface.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 10, 2017, 09:17:45 AM
So the Gurren Lagann style of piloting, huh?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 10, 2017, 09:50:53 PM
Maybe, but that's the least useful way to pilot anything realistically.

Ideally the mech maps out your movements so all the muscles in your limbs are already controlling various servos. You could claim the core body has no bendable position to automatically adjusts per an AI and map some controls to various muscles (twice left peck to turn missiles on, twice twice for off!) but that'd be impossible to do if your using those muscles to stand in your cockpit trying to look cool where no one can see you. Besides, it's still way more impractical than being able to mash buttons with your hand. Plus you don't even need to release the hand control to do that, if your mech makes ninja hand signs while you type in the commend to shoot a stream of fire it totally blends in.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 11, 2017, 01:29:14 AM
Maybe, but that's the least useful way to pilot anything realistically.

Ideally the mech maps out your movements so all the muscles in your limbs are already controlling various servos. You could claim the core body has no bendable position to automatically adjusts per an AI and map some controls to various muscles (twice left peck to turn missiles on, twice twice for off!) but that'd be impossible to do if your using those muscles to stand in your cockpit trying to look cool where no one can see you. Besides, it's still way more impractical than being able to mash buttons with your hand. Plus you don't even need to release the hand control to do that, if your mech makes ninja hand signs while you type in the commend to shoot a stream of fire it totally blends in.

Ginga Bishounen.

The best way to pilot a mecha ever invented.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 11, 2017, 08:39:52 AM
Dude, have you learned nothing? Super Robots work on voice commands.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 11, 2017, 09:28:39 AM
Maybe, but that's the least useful way to pilot anything realistically.

Ideally the mech maps out your movements so all the muscles in your limbs are already controlling various servos. You could claim the core body has no bendable position to automatically adjusts per an AI and map some controls to various muscles (twice left peck to turn missiles on, twice twice for off!) but that'd be impossible to do if your using those muscles to stand in your cockpit trying to look cool where no one can see you. Besides, it's still way more impractical than being able to mash buttons with your hand. Plus you don't even need to release the hand control to do that, if your mech makes ninja hand signs while you type in the commend to shoot a stream of fire it totally blends in.

To quote Getter Robo Armageddon: "So much for the laws of physics!"
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on January 11, 2017, 10:47:35 PM
So the entire mass of debris and corpses of a really big ship was condensed into a 5-mu-wide/high area, after it exploded, which unusually disperses stuff around.
You're the physics specialist, so if that makes sense to you then all right. If the area with junk was so condensed she could have then easily aimed at open space that the ship would have had to occupy, which was the idea.
In pyshics terms, for a beam of such intensity there would be quite a bit of energy dispersed all around. Not a problem for properly shielded machines, a big problem for fragile frozen corpses.

Though I'll remember I can now use enemy-only area effects on objects she doesn't consider to be enemies next time we'll need to clear something in case there are invisible enemies. If they apply when I never intended them to they may as well be useful when we need them to.
Sure, as long as you don't mind the risk of burning more valuable stuff you can't properly spot at the moment.

I don't mind changing the action if the way I meant it to be used is invalid, still.
Game's delayed enough as it is, moving on.

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Besides you already have two prisioners waiting for interrogation, so not like you're spoiled for choice.
Hugo could have taken care of any we'd find here. Mao isn't an expert in interrogations. She just asks questions that rely on actual willingness to give answers.
The big disappointment though is that at first it's only bits of junk in space and then after posting actions to attack through the empty bits in case there is something there suddenly are previously unmentioned corpses (which says more than bits of debris that could have been blasted off the ship after the bombardment). Though you maybe rolled our automatic spot checks for us on that one in secret. In which case kudos. If she had spotted the corpses before attacking things would have been different, given her obsession to get limbs and bits to interrogate.

I can help with the maps from then on, and ask you for every measurements and distances that the party can see. Keeping track of where everything was got difficult for this fight. I'd confirm the map with you round to round to make sure it's accurate.
Making detailed pretty maps and uploading them is a lot of extra work, in particular when everybody has big mobility. I'm sticking with word only updates for the time being.

Something I just noticed and am not sure if it was intentional, the arsenal accessories for radars include a perception mode and damage. Are the perceptions that aren't already specifying that they depend on line of effect (such as blindsense and darkvision) bypassing line of effect? Or perhaps they work as emanation auras, going around obstacles? It is an important detail since otherwise some of them, like sensing things that aren't touching the ground then essentially just become a limited blindsense that isn't called blindsense. As for the extra damage, it mentions that it does not stack with multiple picks of the radar accessory that grants it (two level V radars won't stack) but that mention is currently only specific to multiple selections of the same radar pick, rather than all radar accessories. So a Radar V's extra damage would stack with the extra damage of a Radar IV, which probably isn't the intent.
Meh, if people want to spend multiple acessory slots on diminishing returns for extra damage, I'll allow it.

Another question about the Fighter transformation upgrade:
Quote
If it could already fly that (base) speed increases by 1,5 and becomes perfect maneuverability.
As is it either means that you increase the speed by 1.5 its value (30-mu becomes 75-mu) or by 1.5-mu (30-mu becomes 31.5 mu). Was this meant to be a straight multiplier (30 mu becomes 45 mu) rather than an addition?
Multiplier.

About the Ancient Sensor upgrade: -Creatures of a specific alignment chosen when this upgrade is gained. Can be taken multiple times for different alignments.
By specific alignment, do you intend this to be a given alignment axis (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful and one of the two neutrals) or an alignment such as Chaotic Good?


(http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrqxb0FhrJ1qa2su2o1_1280.jpg) (http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrqxb0FhrJ1qa2su2o1_1280.jpgOne of the 9 alignment options.[/url)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on January 11, 2017, 10:50:29 PM
I always, safely, assumed that unless specifically mentioned a battleship does not have escape pods, much less ones that autoeject the pilot (especially when ships don't have pilots they have captains and an entire manned bridge). For reals, have you ever seen such kinds of escape pods in a spaceship in any Mecha anime?  :P

Mecha only get em for free cause it's easy to fit. For it to reasonably work on a battleship you need the entire bridge rigged to autoeject upon destruction. That looks silly, but it also looks really difficult to implement as a "standard" feature.

It could totes be a ship captain specific arsenal option tho, ya? The ships blowing up, the captains command chair turns into an escape pod and he escaped going down with his ship like the bloody coward that he is!!!!! :shakefist

Going down with your ship oughta be a class feature ;)

Ok, battleships now have a special clause for not having escape pod plus added a new Extra Escape Pods arsenal option.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 11, 2017, 11:24:20 PM
Sounds good!
For the alignment detection it then cannot be used to detect evil since the maximum of senses active at once is limited to two and there are three evil alignments. Unless the user keeps switching them around. Though maybe that was intentional.

Quote
Sure, as long as you don't mind the risk of burning more valuable stuff you can't properly spot at the moment.
For sure!  :) I'll actually be counting on it from now on.

Quote
Making detailed pretty maps and uploading them is a lot of extra work, in particular when everybody has big mobility. I'm sticking with word only updates for the time being.
It is all good. I'm pretty fast on photoshop. Once I've got the dimensions of the place it is pretty easy to work. Especially considering the dimensions have to be done anyway. Prettiness is not something I bother with when the main purpose is to serve as a reference.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 12, 2017, 01:11:03 AM

Ok, battleships now have a special clause for not having escape pod plus added a new Extra Escape Pods arsenal option.

Hahaaaa~! Yes  :p

Gosh, I've been wanting to make a Ship Captain pretty badly lately~
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 14, 2017, 12:22:24 AM
Oh god, politics. :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 18, 2017, 08:12:04 PM
Besides the AA, are there any other notable public organizations set up in this station?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 18, 2017, 09:01:13 PM
The Hunter's Guild, most likely.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 19, 2017, 09:31:19 PM
I'm not even sure what the list of fractions are.

Maybe the basketweavers, those guys cause all the trouble.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on January 22, 2017, 11:56:56 AM
Besides the AA, are there any other notable public organizations set up in this station?

The Government has a token representation.

Added a bunch of new/compiled fluff bits to the last post of the fluff thread from campaign discussions and what I've been writing on the last weeks.

Currently traveling with some friends over the weekend, probably some more time before I can make a proper IC update, but feel free to point any glaring errors in what I posted.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 22, 2017, 12:59:29 PM
The Government has a token representation.
If that's the only one you can name that's awfully suspicious ;)

Added a bunch of new/compiled fluff bits to the last post of the fluff thread from campaign discussions and what I've been writing on the last weeks.
Speaking of, I found the level list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11952.msg302608#msg302608) and I know you said they were to high in level but eh it paints a picture. And while trying to find it I also found I'd mentioned the tongue (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11952.msg303487#msg303487) before.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 22, 2017, 01:08:14 PM
Here's some AA logos/add I did for fun with some spare time. Lots of stuff left that makes me wince that I'll hopefully find time to correct before long.

(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q150/IrianSibe/AAlogos2_zpsfzh6e0ca.jpg~original)(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q150/IrianSibe/AAlogos_zpskxzratnh.jpg~original)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on January 22, 2017, 01:32:37 PM
I like the one on the left.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 22, 2017, 02:29:56 PM
I like 'em. I wonder what the Hunters Guild looks like.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 22, 2017, 02:31:05 PM
Thanks! It is the same but unto some kind of promo poster. I don't know if the AA already has an official logo/flag from the game. I aimed for something that inspired planetary/interstellar reach and the harmonious union of both organic and artificial elements to make a strong whole.
So many possible motto. Hard to settle for one.

The hunter's guild may have multiple logos based on the multiple faction colors (purplenum, redria...), based on the color of the sigil you get when you join. Their motto is obviously "Enrich your life".
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 22, 2017, 03:31:45 PM
Thanks! It is the same but unto some kind of promo poster. I don't know if the AA already has an official logo/flag from the game. I aimed for something that inspired planetary/interstellar reach and the harmonious union of both organic and artificial elements to make a strong whole.
So many possible motto. Hard to settle for one.

The hunter's guild may have multiple logos based on the multiple faction colors (purplenum, redria...), based on the color of the sigil you get when you join. Their motto is obviously "Enrich your life".

Nah, "Taste the rainbow".

Went and found a section ID calculator, HUnewearl, Amaterasu... Oran. XD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 22, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
I just found the fluff on the church of light and am happy to know the space Pope is just a redneck moonshiner
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 22, 2017, 06:56:11 PM
Quote
I just found the fluff on the church of light and am happy to know the space Pope is just a redneck moonshiner
Hahahaha!

Wait. Robots can't get drunk?! What kind of robotic dominion is this!? I do not sign up for this! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdvGyWjOObM)
I kid. I kid.  ...  :ninja

Quote
Went and found a section ID calculator, HUnewearl, Amaterasu... Oran. XD
Depends on the version. If you consider Amaterasu to be a HUnewearl in Blueburst, yes. I'm Whitill. Will probably update my mecha picture to represent it.

Quote
Currently traveling with some friends over the weekend, probably some more time before I can make a proper IC update, but feel free to point any glaring errors in what I posted.
It'll bit a bit tough for there to be any real error considering this is your campaign and you're shaping the world as will. Wishing you a good trip!! Not so many things in this world as pleasant as traveling it in good company.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 22, 2017, 08:37:08 PM
Why would I not be using BB? It seems like the obvious choice for this sort of thing. :P

And she's blatantly a Hunter, despite the mystical stuff. Since she's not human, easy choice.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 22, 2017, 09:50:56 PM
I'ma totally just donate the rest of my money to a bunch of drunk priests.

I always felt Katherine would be pretty buddy-buddy with the main religious presence in the galaxy :p
I really love how the religion is basically the plot of Toriko :D
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 22, 2017, 09:58:23 PM
I really love how the religion is basically the plot of Toriko :D

I guess the giant bird lady is religious now.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on January 24, 2017, 02:50:42 AM
I went and downloaded the PSO2 character creator for kicks and managed to make a character that looked very much to how I imagine Mao. I can see how it would be rather easy to make many of our characters there as well. The creator is actually pretty good for that artstyle.
Then I figured I might as well play the actual game. For anyone else interested it is actually rather easy to get as Sega pretty much makes it free to play. Though you'll need to get a Japanese Sega ID. I can PM directions and links if needs be.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 24, 2017, 05:50:05 AM
I already have an account. Use to play it myself. Fantastic game. Was cool learning how to get around all the menus and quests without understanding any of the words and not having a proper guide available at the time.

Honestly, have simply been waiting for it to get localized. Though there's no doubt english patches by now for the JP version....I've just never bothered looking. I've had a hard time sticking to MMOs for a few years now.

Edit: That character creator is pretty cool. It also reminded me how lazy I am. Couldn't be bothered to figure out photoshop again so I stitched shit together in paint  :lol
I did make Hugo buy me a new outfit at one point. Or intended to  :P
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 24, 2017, 08:08:08 AM
I already have an account. Use to play it myself. Fantastic game. Was cool learning how to get around all the menus and quests without understanding any of the words and not having a proper guide available at the time.

Honestly, have simply been waiting for it to get localized. Though there's no doubt english patches by now for the JP version....I've just never bothered looking. I've had a hard time sticking to MMOs for a few years now.

Edit: That character creator is pretty cool. It also reminded me how lazy I am. Couldn't be bothered to figure out photoshop again so I stitched shit together in paint  :lol
I did make Hugo buy me a new outfit at one point. Or intended to  :P
(click to show/hide)

Dude, just use PSO2 Tweaker. It makes your life sooooooooooooooooooooooo much easier.

And don't hold your breath about it getting localized. Really. Even the SEA version took forever and it's not up to date with the japanese version.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on January 24, 2017, 08:21:04 AM
That didn't exist when I played pso2, I sorta said that.

The most that was available around the JP server's launch time was a guide to create segaIDs, installing the game, and working thru the main menu/char creation :p
Maybe some basic translation via screenshots for the important ingame menus and quest counters.

It was like walking 15 miles to school both ways in the snow!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on January 24, 2017, 08:32:35 AM
For me it was only like 5 miles because I already knew basic kanji and kana. (The menus might as well have been in English, most of the stuff there is in katakana...)  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 04, 2017, 06:14:15 PM
*pokes*
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 04, 2017, 07:45:41 PM
Yes?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 04, 2017, 07:50:33 PM
idk, just seems to have died for a moment.
You probably don't want mouth-to-mouth :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 05, 2017, 07:16:00 AM
Sorry for going missing, RL busybusybusy, hopefully will be able to update this more regularly for the near future.

Added a bunch of new/compiled fluff bits to the last post of the fluff thread from campaign discussions and what I've been writing on the last weeks.
Speaking of, I found the level list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11952.msg302608#msg302608) and I know you said they were to high in level but eh it paints a picture. And while trying to find it I also found I'd mentioned the tongue (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11952.msg303487#msg303487) before.

Got some time to think about this and got a couple suggestions:
-Indeed, your NPCs are too high level, but what about making the top ones gestalt with lower level?
-Now about your wish for super magic society in what's supposed to be a mostly sci-fi setting, something I've been considering is that mass produced high magic works only really in some areas of the galaxy. Powerful magic beings can sustain themselves anywhere kinda, but if you want teleportation circles and magic factories those and their goods only work properly in some places. So that way you can have your magic kingdom and it doesn't automatically conquer everything else.

Here's some AA logos/add I did for fun with some spare time. Lots of stuff left that makes me wince that I'll hopefully find time to correct before long.

(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q150/IrianSibe/AAlogos2_zpsfzh6e0ca.jpg~original)(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q150/IrianSibe/AAlogos_zpskxzratnh.jpg~original)

Oohh, shiny! :love Gotta add those when I get some time to update the fluff section.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 05, 2017, 10:47:29 AM
mass produced high magic, teleportation circles and magic factories.
Hmm, seems like I full on drew more of an idea of Eberron inside your head that more of an advanced FR conclusion. All well, that "magic-only works in X locations" is pretty much the Weave of FR. The idea of it deteriorating after Mystra was wiped makes a pretty sound reason to lose connection with Earth and better than I initially came up with.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 08, 2017, 01:01:08 AM
Oh gawd fcking damn bullshite. I updated my MW sheet awhile ago but looking at it now it somehow rolled back. I know it was updated and saved too cause I have the updated info in the fckin quick reference spoilers too. Fckin' garbage.

Edit: Gosh. There's no record of what the hell I spent my 40k on either so I have go freakin go shopping again  :banghead

Here's an idea. Any Pure Mithril items on the market? :p
The hell does Pure Metal stuff even cost to buy...
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 08, 2017, 03:24:08 AM
I feel your pain.  :-\
Maybe you had more than one open tab with your sheet details and saved the wrong one. Happened to me once or twice.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 08, 2017, 03:33:52 AM
Our PMs really helped recover all my updates/changes but it's really the lost items kicking me right now  :pout
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 08, 2017, 06:29:30 AM
Speaking of, we free to change our sheets around now?  :P

EDIT: What level are we supposed to be and how much money have we got?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 08, 2017, 06:52:51 AM
Level 14. I think.

No idea how much money you're suppose to have. I only have what I'm suppose to have :p

That reminds me, nobody picked up the loot......
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 08, 2017, 11:13:52 AM
What loot? It was wreckage.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 08, 2017, 03:09:30 PM
Of course not, Os had it destroyed  ;)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 08, 2017, 03:51:44 PM
So previously I could use my Natural Weapons just fine and Ols even claimed it was intended for larger creatures to do so, add to this we've faced natural creatures in our mechs before too.

#1 D&D-nerf, all none-mech weapons deal minimal damage to mechs.
So ummm.... Is this still a thing? I mean before the point was creature/mech/arsenal melee had pros/cons but mech ranged sucked compared to all-melee & mundane/mech ranged so your patch was to banhammer creature weapons. Well since then you've added new mech built-in upgrades and quite a few arsenal ranged. Plus you've tweak the Size bonus too, if globally applied a Colossal+++ (mech gargantuan) Greatsword deals 12d6 instead of 24d6 but still has no props/attackbonus.

#2 Barrage Mode, you can fire everything once at-once.
How does this work with other weapons? Full on one of each, Natural Weapons kind of already do that and fit in just fine?

#3 The Interaction of Growth & "channeling" Natural Weapons
It really feels like there should be a "Amplify" Upgrade for Natural Weapon channeling, maybe a point each like Extra except the cap is based on how many you have. Then for damage, probably just taking it to Colossal + your size scale on top of that.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TIuZ-MH8zjI/UVwwEP0SauI/AAAAAAAACPQ/eI-QM_yyFt8/s1600/GF13-006NA+Gundam+Maxter+%2526+Chibodee+Crocket.png)
(image fail to load? (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TIuZ-MH8zjI/UVwwEP0SauI/AAAAAAAACPQ/eI-QM_yyFt8/s1600/GF13-006NA+Gundam+Maxter+%2526+Chibodee+Crocket.png))
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 08, 2017, 06:01:49 PM
#1 - Mech weapons deal maximum base weapon damage to non-mecha and non-mechas deal minimum base weapon damage to mechas.
This should not reduce the efficiency of of your mecha's natural attacks against other mechas since the natural attacks are mecha weapons. This being because the natural weapons are gained through a "self-buffing" class ability, so the mecha gets it too. They likewise inflict max damage to non-mechas.
We fought a beast that used natural weapons though it is quite possible that they worked on mecha scale all the same, so they would count as "mechas" for the purpose of mecha combat (despite having no arsenal nor in-built weapons).

#2
Quote
When full attacking, a mecha may choose to either perform iteratives with a single weapon or attack once with any or all of its in-built and arsenal weapons, up to a total of weapons equal to their pilot level. In the latter case, all weapons after the first take a -5 penalty on the attack roll and only add half the relevant stat to damage, and cannot benefit from any precision damage
To make sense of how it works, I see that this is all about how iterative attacks are done within the full attack. The barrage mode is an alternative to normal iterative attacks.
Which means that the rest of the fullattack that doesn't concern the iterative attacks still apply; the meaning being you can still do natural weapon attacks on top of the iterative attacks even if the barrage mode is used instead.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 09, 2017, 12:54:07 PM
#1 - Mech weapons deal maximum base weapon damage to non-mecha and non-mechas deal minimum base weapon damage to mechas.
If that's how it reads cool, but still @Ols, has anything changed on Natural Weapons because there still isn't anything reflected in the SRW rules.

As Andomander wants to try and point out, all Class Features are carried over. Except you still have to take the Upgrades to channel Breath Weapons so that's not true. But you still have a gray area of what if it didn't come from Class Features, like Warforged have a Slam, Shifters/Kobolds have Claws, etc.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 09, 2017, 02:08:19 PM
No, like said, only self buffs. Things that improve your attacks work, but abilities that affects other targets require an amplifier.
Osle already confirmed that an android's racial Integrated Weaponry (except when a better arsenal level version is taken, in which case it specifically applies only out of the mecha), for example, is channeled so a natural weapons should pass as well. Though if there's an exception for natural weapons it would indeed have to be pointed out.
A breath weapon is specifically prevented since it affects others (though natural weapons are also technically an ability that targets others rather than simply improving existing attack modes).
Baha wouldn't needed an amplifier for the abilities that improves his breaths, for example.

Quote
The mecha uses the pilot's base saves, BAB, skill bonuses, feats, and self-buff class abilities for fighting(except Regeneration)
Spells that affect others, Psionics, Breath Weapons, Rays and other similar abilities from the pilot cannot be used while inside the mecha
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 11, 2017, 07:08:58 AM
Oh gawd fcking damn bullshite. I updated my MW sheet awhile ago but looking at it now it somehow rolled back. I know it was updated and saved too cause I have the updated info in the fckin quick reference spoilers too. Fckin' garbage.

Edit: Gosh. There's no record of what the hell I spent my 40k on either so I have go freakin go shopping again  :banghead
Speaking of, we free to change our sheets around now?  :P

EDIT: What level are we supposed to be and how much money have we got?
Ah, yes, you're supposed to have leveled up to 14 and the AA will soon be transfering 40k meseta to each of your accounts.


Here's an idea. Any Pure Mithril items on the market? :p
Yes, pretty much anything up to masterwork level, anything higher will need to be custom-ordered.

The hell does Pure Metal stuff even cost to buy...
Do the math. :P

So previously I could use my Natural Weapons just fine and Ols even claimed it was intended for larger creatures to do so, add to this we've faced natural creatures in our mechs before too.

#1 D&D-nerf, all none-mech weapons deal minimal damage to mechs.
So ummm.... Is this still a thing? I mean before the point was creature/mech/arsenal melee had pros/cons but mech ranged sucked compared to all-melee & mundane/mech ranged so your patch was to banhammer creature weapons. Well since then you've added new mech built-in upgrades and quite a few arsenal ranged. Plus you've tweak the Size bonus too, if globally applied a Colossal+++ (mech gargantuan) Greatsword deals 12d6 instead of 24d6 but still has no props/attackbonus.
None-mech weapons still deal minimal damage to mechs, but your own mecha/power suit allows you to count your natural weapons as mecha ones.

#2 Barrage Mode, you can fire everything once at-once.
How does this work with other weapons? Full on one of each, Natural Weapons kind of already do that and fit in just fine?
They'll count as in-built weapons.

#3 The Interaction of Growth & "channeling" Natural Weapons
It really feels like there should be a "Amplify" Upgrade for Natural Weapon channeling, maybe a point each like Extra except the cap is based on how many you have. Then for damage, probably just taking it to Colossal + your size scale on top of that.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TIuZ-MH8zjI/UVwwEP0SauI/AAAAAAAACPQ/eI-QM_yyFt8/s1600/GF13-006NA+Gundam+Maxter+%2526+Chibodee+Crocket.png)
(image fail to load? (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TIuZ-MH8zjI/UVwwEP0SauI/AAAAAAAACPQ/eI-QM_yyFt8/s1600/GF13-006NA+Gundam+Maxter+%2526+Chibodee+Crocket.png))
No need to spend extra upgrade points, just works by default.

Basically if it's shooting/throwing something out there, you need an Amplifier, otherwise your mecha is supposed to be customized to take advantage of them or can be adapted on the fly for it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 11, 2017, 08:28:43 AM
Fine I'll math later. Quick question first.

Nanoarmor takes the armor slot, yes? What if you're already wearing armor? Does the nanoarmor overwrite it and negate the worn armor; do you simply just get the higher of the 2s armor bonus; or does nanoarmor not activate at all if your armor slot is already full?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 11, 2017, 08:30:09 AM
Welp, I guess I'll have to reroll my hit dice, then.

EDIT: ...wow, that sucked. Can I get a reroll over here? Or at least get the average?  :twitch
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 11, 2017, 08:49:41 AM
Nanoarmor takes the armor slot, yes? What if you're already wearing armor? Does the nanoarmor overwrite it and negate the worn armor; do you simply just get the higher of the 2s armor bonus; or does nanoarmor not activate at all if your armor slot is already full?
Eeerr, good question. I'll rule it as nanoarmor overwriting any worn armor.

Welp, I guess I'll have to reroll my hit dice, then.

EDIT: ...wow, that sucked. Can I get a reroll over here? Or at least get the average?  :twitch
Average. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 11, 2017, 04:35:12 PM
Okay, that works. So I can still have something for armor...hmm, shopping trips~
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 11, 2017, 05:51:05 PM
Anyone still playing PSO2? Could party and do quests and what not.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 11, 2017, 07:18:09 PM
Hey Os, figuring price for Pure Metal stuff, since it's not magical crafting, are the raw material costs in the Pure Crafting feat supposed to be tripled and added to normal cost of buying an item? As non-magical crafting rules has you crafting with raw materials worth 1/3 market price and all.

Quote
If and only if the crafter has at least 8 ranks in Craft(Weaponsmithing), they may make the weapon masterwork with 24 hours of work. If the crafter has at least 12 ranks in Craft(Weaponsmithing), they can make it Relicwork for an extra 3500 GP worth of materials and 72 hour of work. If the crafter has at least 16 ranks, they can make it Artifactwork for an extra 35 000 GP worth of materials and 216 hours of work. If the crafter has at least 20 rank in Craft(Weaponsmithing), they can make it Phantasmwork for an extra 70 000 GP worth of materials and 512 hours of work.

Base costs and extra +200 gp in raw material, but Masterwork is the only one missing how much raw material it costs.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 11, 2017, 07:55:21 PM
Anyone still playing PSO2? Could party and do quests and what not.

I am, every once in a while, but no one is in Geofu (ship 6 or 7 I think) so I can't party with anybody, and moving my character from there would result in me losing 250 items minimum.  :shakefist
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 11, 2017, 08:38:34 PM
Aye. I got into Ship 2.  If you don't mind powerleveling so we can sort of do the same quests that'd work. I start over every season at Diablo 3 so I guess its nothing special. I've no emotional affection for my characters.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 11, 2017, 08:41:34 PM
I'd probably have to start over too.....but I also have a real tough time sticking to MMOs nowadays. Kinda burnt myself out on those kind of games in me younger years~ :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 11, 2017, 08:45:13 PM
I've about 2 to 4 hours available to play. Can't find myself with more continuous hours most days. And half of it usually goes to League of Legends. >_>
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 11, 2017, 09:22:16 PM
I've really weaned myself off of LoL in favor of OVerwatch. Its nice not being stuck ingame for half an hour at a time. :p
Yeah, that mostly why I like OW. Quick to get in, quick to get out....

MMOs are just such timesinks -_-'
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 11, 2017, 10:06:49 PM
I like Overwatch. Even as I wonder what the hell Blizzard's idea of balance is.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 12, 2017, 02:23:16 PM
I seem unable to start my PSO2 at all recently. Got the latest tweaker and checked for missing/corrupt files multiple times but then fails to actually initialize the game. Not that I have that much free time myself but would like to do the occasional mission.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 12, 2017, 02:43:05 PM
Hm, I need to change a feat out because it's not longer allowed to stack one of those I have.

I'm not sure what pilot feat to get.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 12, 2017, 03:08:57 PM
Quote
I seem unable to start my PSO2 at all recently. Got the latest tweaker and checked for missing/corrupt files multiple times but then fails to actually initialize the game. Not that I have that much free time myself but would like to do the occasional mission.
I had that problem too. Nothing I did pulled through.
I uninstalled the entire thing and then reinstalled through the Arks torrent, then patched with tweaker. That did it.

@About party wealth: In case everyone's wondering, the wealth available now, not counting any items you found throughout the campaign, is at 169,748.60
except Baha who is at 179,748.60 gold.
There are other variables such as objects found in monster loot. Baha has whatever the Esper was equipped with and perhaps more.
Hugo got access to the special location in the resort. Dunno if they took loot from the maids they fought. Whatever happened to those.
In the minus section, there would be any consumables that had been purchased.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 12, 2017, 06:23:58 PM
Quote
I seem unable to start my PSO2 at all recently. Got the latest tweaker and checked for missing/corrupt files multiple times but then fails to actually initialize the game. Not that I have that much free time myself but would like to do the occasional mission.
I had that problem too. Nothing I did pulled through.
I uninstalled the entire thing and then reinstalled through the Arks torrent, then patched with tweaker. That did it.

@About party wealth: In case everyone's wondering, the wealth available now, not counting any items you found throughout the campaign, is at 169,748.60
except Baha who is at 179,748.60 gold.
There are other variables such as objects found in monster loot. Baha has whatever the Esper was equipped with and perhaps more.
Hugo got access to the special location in the resort. Dunno if they took loot from the maids they fought. Whatever happened to those.
In the minus section, there would be any consumables that had been purchased.

There was only one maid. The others were dressed like regular mercs. Their equipment was supposed to have been confiscated after we brought them in.

Their underwear counted as equipment.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 12, 2017, 06:50:40 PM
Did you send them to the black market to get ambushed while buck naked?

Gosh *shakes head*
What are we going to do with you, kiddo.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 12, 2017, 07:32:39 PM
Did you send them to the black market to get ambushed while buck naked?

Gosh *shakes head*
What are we going to do with you, kiddo.

Hey, want to be Amaterasu's friend? xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 12, 2017, 08:29:02 PM
Photon boarding reminds me of a Shower Thoughts post about archeologists discovering tanning beds and the Kardashians and assuming we used to fry people into stupidity as a punishment then broadcast it live over TV networks as a warning.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 12, 2017, 09:59:09 PM
Did you send them to the black market to get ambushed while buck naked?

Gosh *shakes head*
What are we going to do with you, kiddo.

I honestly assume they dropped by whatever hideout they might have and grabbed a fresh change of clothes.

Did you send them to the black market to get ambushed while buck naked?

Gosh *shakes head*
What are we going to do with you, kiddo.

Hey, want to be Amaterasu's friend? xD

I thought they were already friends!  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 12, 2017, 10:08:08 PM
According to a single witness report and a receipt, Kat & Ammy are married :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 13, 2017, 08:43:47 AM
But until now there was no reason to try and stay close to each other in a fight! :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 13, 2017, 01:59:17 PM
I think Devotion is better  ;)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 13, 2017, 06:15:54 PM
Except totally inappropriate from my perspective. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 13, 2017, 09:49:20 PM
Fiiiine, Kat will take what she can get  :smirk
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 14, 2017, 12:40:28 AM
With the pace of this RP, you have all the time in the world to work on whatever she wants. :p

But Friendship is the other side of it. At least you're pretty fast. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 15, 2017, 01:10:32 AM
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this question but eh.
What happens if you're bigger than your Mech?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 15, 2017, 04:22:37 AM
Rainy, your inbox is full. So here's my response :p

So I've basically discovered all the crafting prices for pure metal items are supposed to be tripled if sold on the market because it works just like mundane crafting where crafting price is 1/3 market price.

Phantasmwork anything is 210k gold ignoring epic rules for breaking 200k.

In Os' game we have access to any kind of pure metal, but only up to masterwork quality. Comes out to 900gp plus normal weapon's cost for any masterwork pure metal item or 750gp plus base armor cost for any pure metal armor of masterwork quality.

I think he said the option to commission higher grade stuff was around, too.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 17, 2017, 04:46:16 AM
So I've made my leadership's level 6 follower and its cohort into a proxy perpetual spirit bank system to spread spirit points around the team.
It is a Dvati/raggamuffyn/ultimate uniform with 7 pilot levels that has a minimum of 155 spirit points and the level 6 follower is an animated object base race or android monster-blooded/hybrided into a dvati as well with 5 Moon Vanguard levels to get 85 spirit points.
They both know the Hope spirit and the Blue Internet's Copy/Paste stance. I'll explain the process once here in full so it doesn't puzzle everyone later on over exactly what's going on:

Cohort also knows Zeal. Cost of Zeal is 84 and Hope is 70 since it counts as a ship captain.
Cohort will be referred to as C1 and C2 since Dvati come in pairs. Same goes for the level 6 follower, now referred to as F1 and F2

C1 and F2 will initiate Copy/Paste and target C2, who will be doing all the work. C1 will go aboard a mecha as a passenger and and just come along doing nothing to see what's going on. The cohort took the Together through Space feat so C2 can spend all day safely aboard the Protectora with Maia and remain focused on seeing what C1 is seeing. Nothing can block Together through Space and it has infinite range so now the Protectora crew has live instant feedback on everything C1 sees.

(click to show/hide)

The combo can be altered by replacing Tek Soul and the Zeal spirit by Zero State but it then requires a different setup. I had it working before they were made but they make the process easier to maintain without a 1-round cooldown or using more than one follower and one cohort or without having Mao join in too.

C2 enters the mecha and creates a copy, both C1 and C1's copy (CC1) initiate the Copy/Paste stance, both targeting C2 as normal. C1 then leaves the mecha and become a passenger off to witness the adventure. CC1 goes to check on the adventure as well or stays with C2 and F1 to refill him if he needs to use another spirit on the team.
C2 enters the mecha C1 left and goes to safety as normal along with CC1. CC1's mecha copy becomes a spare mecha for another follower to use or whatever.
Since C1 and C2 share the same sp pool, they both got halved to 77 sp together and CC1 has 77 sp of its own. Both got enough to use Hope/Bonds/Resupply.
C2 uses Hope exclusively to keep itself and CC1 to full sp every round and CC1 uses Bonds/Resupply and sometimes Hope on the party (though it could only use Hope two rounds in a row before needing to use something else to recharge).
Without Zeal, F2 only really gets back to full sp every two rounds, but the system is already at least 1.5x more efficient thanks to the clone, and there is an extra spirit to get stuff done. If Zero states creates a copy of both C1 and C2 instead of only C1, then it is even easier to manage.
This sp factory can be improved further though as is should be more than sufficient.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 17, 2017, 05:11:08 AM
While I find that idea to be absolutely clever, I will say I've personally been avoiding having Zeal's extra turn count towards Hp/En/Sp regen so far because I figured it'd be in bad taste -_-'

Otherwise my resource management problems wouldn't have been nearly so troubling every fight so far haha.......

Like, do we have permission to use Zeal like that in the first place?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 17, 2017, 11:14:52 AM
Quote
Like, do we have permission to use Zeal like that in the first place?
Depends on what you mean by "that".
Zeal's extra turn allows you to use spirits at the beginning of turn again, which is why it specifies that it cannot be used more than once per round otherwise it could just rely on the default rule that a spirit cannot be used more than once per turn. The recoveries happen at the beginning of each turn so it should still apply although the sequence does not depend on it to still work. It can be worked around easily and the issue is trivial if a Dvati gets double recovery anyway for having two recoveries toward the same resource pool.

I'm all for using the clone version instead. More options but harder to manage.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 17, 2017, 01:23:06 PM
So I've made my leadership's level 6 follower and its cohort into a proxy perpetual spirit bank system to spread spirit points around the team. It is a Dvati
Do you really even need Dvati? Hell, do you even need Followers?

You're level 14 with Copy/Paste right? Soul of the Machine x8, Miniaturization x3, Tek Soul, & Spirit Regen gives you 187sp & +35/rnd. Zero State (circuitx2/soul) produces 13 clones for a total of 14 Maos running around (dear god ;_;). Even starting at 0sp for the round, the first one regenerates 35sp and uses Aid on #14, the target of everyone's Copy/Paste, which means they all regenerate 10sp. After four clones go #14 can use Zeal (+35regen/+40aid) granting them all a second turn while the remaining nine can use Hope to hand out 450sp to the party.

All fourteen attack and murder normally, the party gains +450sp & all fourteen benefit from Zeal.
Then thirteen attack and murder normally again, the party gains +450sp, and ahh sorry Zeal can't stack for a new round.
But why didn't #14 attack? He hot-footed so even if you uber nuke the area for 10,000 damage split over ten attacks so Alert/Invincibility won't work, Mao survives irregardless of damage/HP/Saves so no one actually gives a crap that none of the Maos can recover HP.

And then next round he does it again!



Hey, do you need some quick damage?
Start with 90 Energy -> Zero State(circuitx3) for 18 clones -> Burning Justice's Magic Zehpir Sword -> lv5 Arsenal's Buster Rifle @30Dex -> 2,700 damage. Vs lv14, Platingx8, & Great that's still 2,160 damage and it ignores most of your target's sources of AC to make up for the -8 penalty to attack rolls too. After attacking they poof them selves until you're down to one so you can then just use Spirit to recover the lost HP/Energy. Works great with a huge source of Spirit nearby and this isn't even remotly complicated. It's four upgrade points, a 1st level Maneuver all Super Pilots already have access to, and an optional two Spirits to recover HP/Energy assuming you just don't want to bank on another 2~3 people doing this is enough to kill everyone.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 17, 2017, 03:45:12 PM
Quote
Soul of the Machine x8, Miniaturization x3, Tek Soul, & Spirit Regen gives you 187sp & +35/rnd. Zero State (circuitx2/soul
It would be 25/t, actually. (8 SotM + 10 s regen + 7 tek soul).

Otherwise the rest doesn't really work, the main reason being that she couldn't make all that many clones because her size category is too far from medium.
There are other problems, such as spirit division. Just getting four clones would split the 187 sp down to 46 each max. No more Hope, even less Zeal. I doubt the spirits that grant sp can somehow go over the maximum sp.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 17, 2017, 03:55:06 PM
Hmm how did I end up a whole ten points off? Eh, all well. It just means you need a little spirit to make some spirit. Also it seems the Circuit copies lose Feats so you have to patch on that Spirit that copies Feats too.

46 each max.
It doesn't actually adjust your maximums, just splits your current values. Like it splits HP, not Hit Dice or Hit Point Maximum.



Totally off the wall here but @RD. Anomander once suggested a Control Rod's damage could be increased by substituting ranged attacks (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=17217.msg307612#msg307612). Well over in the SRW discussion thread it became a little more well known that Mechs can stockpile weapons for total attack breakage. Like we're talking buy fourteen Incision Knifes and attack fourteen times in a row. Long story short you can make 14 attacks per round for 2d6*14 damage (avg 98). At least until Anomander regrets his edit or attempts to patch Osl's homebrew using his own. But srsly, the msz-010 zz double beam rifle deals 6d6+mods per shot and you can fire 14 of them anyway.

In your case since Kathrine is Colossal, it's 6d6*14 or 398 damage on average which really isn't bad. I mean, Zero State breaks the crap out of damage (see previous post's 2,160dmg) and before that heck I was planning on using a Sensor with Mightyx8 Gargantuan Slash Ripper, with Kathrine's current 37 Str vs DR 30 (med lv14 with platingx8 & great) even she would have dealt 504 damage to a 20mu area with a +8 bonus to attack rolls and a lot of disarm attempts. But it seems like it'd be a good drop back point and technically requires no investment.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 17, 2017, 05:21:23 PM
Hehe, Soro, I'm Katherine. Rainy is Amaterasu (Ammy)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 17, 2017, 07:02:56 PM
Quote
Anomander once suggested a Control Rod's damage could be increased by substituting ranged attacks.
I don't recall the exact wording I used but I'm pretty sure I had it only merge all the attacks that can be done with a fullattack action with the weapon that is transformed into the control rod. So the special fullattack action combining a bunch of different weapons wouldn't merge into that fused attack.

Quote
It doesn't actually adjust your maximums, just splits your current values. Like it splits HP, not Hit Dice or Hit Point Maximum.
I'm pretty sure that what is split includes the maximum values. For example, the Plating upgrade does not just give a +10 bonus to the current HP of the mecha. It raises its maximum. It would not make much sense otherwise since all the clones could recover back to full and then you'd effectively get more or less a bunch of copies as resilient as the original. Keep them long enough and they'd even recover daily resources and so on. It makes no sense with what the ability intends to accomplish.
I made my setup with that assumption, at least.

I'm pretty sure that although some feats add modifiers to certain resources, such as Spirit Up, the modifier is split including that modifier despite each copy having the feat, instead of spiting the base value and then adding those modifiers. I may be wrong, still.


Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 17, 2017, 07:31:19 PM
I don't recall the exact wording I used
I linked it.
You can indeed make the rod shot and use the natural weapons in the same full-attack but you wouldn't be able to convert the natural attacks into a stronger rod shot since they are not ranged attacks. Unless you're using one of the tricks to turn them into ranged attacks, of course.  ;)
In the case you used the damage would be multiplied by the number of attacks allowed by the character's BaB.

Edit: Ugh. Though I supposed the original intent was to convert any ranged attack that could have been used with the CR itself. It makes more sense, at least.
But w/e. Each attack with a transformed weapon does paint an even better picture than the edit does. But it still creates some new questions, like what if you transform a Linked weapon. The Rod is still linked to the other weapon so when you attack with the other weapon you attack with the Rod. Does the Rod get to attack each time, how does it multiply in this case, etc.

I'm pretty sure that what is split includes the maximum values.
And I think that because I've already demonstrated yet another way to abuse how it's written that if I continue to make the same point Osl might nerf it to mean such.

So... Yeah. It's totally not talking about maximum HP. For example, Battery specifically says "+10 max energy", Soul of the Machine specifically says "maximum spirit points" and the Tek upgrades use terms like "max Spirit is halved", "pilot maximum spirit points" & "max Energy". So your maximum Energy/Spirit is not affected by Zero State and you have to ask your self why do you think HP is some kind of special exception? Osl simply did not split HP/MaxHP up like he did the other terms, or as he did on the spirit page with Scan & Bonds, but you know what it's supposed to mean.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 17, 2017, 08:22:17 PM
Good grief, these numbers/plans.

I'm just interested in surviving attacks so Guts is useful in the mecha. And being more durable. Kind of countered by taking agility and speed for thematic reasons, though.

... Do I get a speed boost if I paint things red?  :D
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 17, 2017, 09:36:48 PM
Good grief, these numbers/plans.
I have an unhealthy addiction.

I'm just interested in surviving attacks so Guts is useful in the mecha. And being more durable. Kind of countered by taking agility and speed for thematic reasons, though.
Buy some Pure Adamantine Armor for your mech, it grants extra Hardness to anyone wearing it so you can snag like another 10 points of effective DR easy enough.

Also Osl just added a new defensive upgrade called "Absolute Barrier". For 6 Upgrade points you can take it three times and it applies a -60% damage reduction from everything but either Beams or Missiles at the cost of -15 Energy per Hit. You also get Alien Alloy on crack for free in the form of total immunity to three elements, or mech-weapon properties, or movement changers, that you can switch to w/e you like as a Free Action like some kind of Borg adaption. Hell this last part is pretty much worth it on it's own.

If you're willing to give up Arsenal you can take Mysterious Power & Nanomachines over Hyper Dimensional Storage on top of that. Since they work on a percentage scale increasing your maximum values can really help out. Like M.Powerx5 costs 20 points and you get 100 Max Energy with +50 regen, but Batteryx8+M.Powerx3 costs 17 points and gives you 180 Max Energy with +54 regen. Mix and match as desired.

Then take Zero State with HP/Energy/Spirit recovery and leave a clone at home so death is totally meaningless. Like, oh Kathrine died so that means Kathrine takes a Run Action leaving home to join the fight on my next turn! with enough Speed, heck you won't even lose a turn. :)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 17, 2017, 09:45:29 PM
Already have Soul of the Machine. It's not healing I'm concerned about so much as the surviving to heal portion. I'm too lazy to go for detailed combos. If things work out pretty simply, that's great. Otherwise... uh, I want a character sheet I can make sense of at four in the morning. :lmao

I can't remember why I chose gold armour to integrate this time. Adamantine is rather the obvious choice. :???
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 17, 2017, 10:36:10 PM
I can't remember why I chose gold armour to integrate this time. Adamantine is rather the obvious choice. :???
Gold is the Sadism of the Pure Metals: bonus damage for dealing damage.

It was probably a good idea a level or two ago back when Osl wasn't trying to deal 360+ damage to all of us each turn. Now through, it's like I need defense!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 17, 2017, 11:00:01 PM
Quote from: RD
... Do I get a speed boost if I paint things red?  :D
I got rid of the doll cohort since Mao no longer qualifies for it due to swapping the discipline for Martial Machine.
Got the Personal Maid now. She can increase the speeds of someone else in the group by 60%. Not sure who needs it the most right now. Kath might need if only to have an easier time keeping up with Ama.

Quote from: Soro
But it still creates some new questions, like what if you transform a Linked weapon. The Rod is still linked to the other weapon so when you attack with the other weapon you attack with the Rod. Does the Rod get to attack each time, how does it multiply in this case, etc.
The Control rod would indeed gain the Twin-linked property, since "special abilities of the converted weapon are transferred to the control rod".
But what that actually means in practice is affected by the terminology used by the homebrew. Much like the weapons granted by Martial Machine knuckle effects, the control rod is indeed a weapon but not an arsenal weapon and not a built-in weapon either. It remains a mecha weapon when used through a mecha, still.
Since it isn't a built-in weapon nor an arsenal weapon, it cannot be used along with the rest of a special barrage of attacks instead of a fullattack, even if the weapon converted is an arsenal weapon/built-in weapon.

As for how twin-linked applies, the rules state that to use twin-linked you must "have two weapons of the same kind with that property". So you would need another control rod with the twin-linked property. However, the Pair super upgrade seems to completely disregard that rule and allows you to pair two different weapons anyway.
My personal take would be that Pair works with a twin-linked control rod... but the enhancement/ability of a converted weapon may well be transferred to the control rod but that ability/enhancement still wouldn't work if that ability requires the weapon to be something the control rod isn't.
eg: a converted Vorpal greataxe wouldn't be of any use for the ranged shots since Vorpal requires a melee slashing weapon.
Here the Pair effect applies to a built-in weapon so the weird 'twin-linked without being the same weapon' and the combined weapon trick may still rely on the paired weapon to be a built-in weapon. That case would depend on the DM's take on it but personally I'd allow it.
The end result would be that every instance twin-linked weapons can be used together, they would, except that it does not change the fact that the control rod makes only one attack per fullattack. So if you make a fullattack that has three attacks with a twin-linked weapon paired with another weapon, the other weapon would attack three times and the control rod would attack once with the merge of three attacks since it would normally make three attack throughout the process.
Although I can still see how the wording on the way twin-linked weapons operate could be open to interpretation since it mentions replacing the fullattack's regular routine by double attacks. Although the routine is different it remains a fullattack and control rods have their own rule on how they work for those.
If you read it differently though I'm open to other interpretations. It may make more sense.

Quote
Like M.Powerx5 costs 20 points and you get 100 Max Energy with +50 regen, but Batteryx8+M.Powerx3 costs 17 points and gives you 180 Max Energy with +54 regen. Mix and match as desired.
Mysterious Power 5 wouldn't work since it costs 20 points and the maximum number of points that can be applied to an upgrade now is half your super pilot level +1.
Which is a maximum of 8 at super pilot 14. Since Mysterious Power 3 requires 9 points, the maximum possible since the super upgrade overhaul is Mysterious Power 2.

Quote
It's not healing I'm concerned about so much as the surviving to heal portion.
Part of the reason I was considering to pick the Revival spirit. :)
Mao will get the Boss prestige class and so the minions cannot integrate her into the system since her abilities cannot be copied because of One of a Kind. So I'll have spirits points to use for other stuff than keeping the system going (which kinda sucks since it would have been even more efficient if she wasn't a Boss) and for an emergency I could reroute all the spirit recovery to her to recover enough to use Revival.

There isn't much point getting the clones ability either since making clones would be akin to copying her abilities, so the ability would fail. A boss cannot use abilities that make copies. It would have been sort of thematic to have Mao split into copies, being Many As One, though the concept was more in the idea of her being a combination of multiple forces instead of a force that gained power from being divided, which would be contrary to her ideals.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 17, 2017, 11:03:19 PM
Mechs can wear armor what? That's way too expensive :v
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 17, 2017, 11:19:09 PM
I can't remember why I chose gold armour to integrate this time. Adamantine is rather the obvious choice. :???
Gold is the Sadism of the Pure Metals: bonus damage for dealing damage.

It was probably a good idea a level or two ago back when Osl wasn't trying to deal 360+ damage to all of us each turn. Now through, it's like I need defense!

I mean, it seemed like a good idea a few weeks ago, and now I can't remember why I decided that.  <_>

@Anomander: the red thing is a gundam/40k joke. I have no idea why that justified a serious response... :T

Mechs can wear armor what? That's way too expensive :v

Benefit of the "I Am Invincible" feat. You get to integrate one pure metal item, be it weapon or armour, over 1d4 rounds. You don't have to own the item.

Of course, I mostly took the feat for the ability to summon a mecha to replicate scenes in Diebuster. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 17, 2017, 11:40:00 PM
Anomander is explicitly serious responses  :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 18, 2017, 12:13:21 AM
If you read it differently though I'm open to other interpretations. It may make more sense.
Osl has like zero consistency (see hp points from before) and prone to editing things. I'll just go with w/e you want since you wrote the Rod and attempt to abuse it from there. :p

And it seems like you're leaning on it works with Linked but let me repeat this back. For example two Linked MSZ-010 ΖΖ Beam Rifles. One gets changed into a Control Rod and acquires the Rifle's Power, Disarming, Volatile, & Linked traits. As a mech-channeled Class Feature it counts as a Mech-Weapon so it's damage isn't minimized, but it's still a Control Rod and not Arsenal/Built-Ins. When Full-Attacking @3 attacks, the real rifle fires three shots and the Rod fires once at x3.

Sound right?

Mechs can wear armor what? That's way too expensive :v
They always could, you can buy colossal armor out of the PHB. Heck Mechs even gain your Proficiency :p

But yeah it can get expensive pretty fast. A Mech-Gargantuan Masterwork Full-Plate costs 211,200gp, so good luck adding Pure Metals to that. On the SWR thread I brought this up and how Colossal++++ weapons have lots of dice, hence the nerf of none-mech weapons dealing minimal damage. But on the upside we got Size Progressions for Mech-Weapons :D

Anyway, there is a Specific Pilot Feat called "I am Invincible" (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7160.msg171678#msg171678) that allows you to buy them at normal prices and simply integrate it into your Mech. The Feat also grants a couple other bonuses you can use as well.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 18, 2017, 12:16:41 AM
You two are going to be the death of me. ;~;
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 18, 2017, 01:11:23 AM
That's a lot of text to go through and I'm dead tired, so for now only addressing a few key points:

-Zeal does not grant you an actual new turn, just the respective actions. So passive stuff that happens at the start of a turn won't trigger.

-The unblockable dvati feat has been banned and erased from the monster class.

-The dvati itself has been updated to stop copy/paste shenigans and resource recovery doubling.

-Zero Circuit already forbids spammed copies from using anything but basic attacks/movement/skills besides UMD so no you can't use them to spam maneuvers or spirits.

-Zero state still needs to be further cleaned up yes.

-If you're bigger than your mecha you can't ride it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 18, 2017, 04:17:32 AM
Mechs can wear armor what? That's way too expensive :v
They always could, you can buy colossal armor out of the PHB. Heck Mechs even gain your Proficiency :p

But yeah it can get expensive pretty fast. A Mech-Gargantuan Masterwork Full-Plate costs 211,200gp, so good luck adding Pure Metals to that. On the SWR thread I brought this up and how Colossal++++ weapons have lots of dice, hence the nerf of none-mech weapons dealing minimal damage. But on the upside we got Size Progressions for Mech-Weapons :D

Anyway, there is a Specific Pilot Feat called "I am Invincible" (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7160.msg171678#msg171678) that allows you to buy them at normal prices and simply integrate it into your Mech. The Feat also grants a couple other bonuses you can use as well.

Bah! Its one of those annoying feats that only works when in a Pilot School's Stance. Terrible.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 18, 2017, 10:13:47 AM
Bah! Its one of those annoying feats that only works when in a Pilot School's Stance. Terrible.
Well buy your self a Buckler like I did then. It's 15gp for the buckler, 600gp for basic pure, times size (x8 for mech-small, x16 for mech-medium, x32 mech-large, etc), or about 9,840gp. As your calculator will read it, it grants BAB/2+1/2+2 Hardness (6 @14 bab).

You're just stuck at using really cheap items rather than Artifactwork +5 Mechanus Plate or w/e for like +24 AC & +42 Hardness. (note Osl says you have to commission for artifactwork in this game).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 18, 2017, 11:02:02 AM
I thought it just granted the effects of the metal, not any sort of equipment. Getting random sourcebook armour at mecha scale for free doesn't seem like the point of the ability.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 18, 2017, 11:39:59 AM
Did I misread it? I thought it incorporated the item in. If it just grants the properties of the pure metal only (vs all of it), how the hell does that work when the properties vary based on armor type & it's base AC?

Edit
Quote
Over the Top-As a move or swift action, you can integrate one single piece of equipment of Pure Crafting. This can be either an item you actually own, or any single Pure Metal item that demands Bab equal to your Pilot level-5 (up to Relicwork at Pilot level 17) takes 1d3 rounds to integrate with your mecha, and then it benefits from the pure metal item using your own Bab. Retrieving the pure metal item from your mecha demands another move or swift action(if it was spawned, then it simply dissipates) and is instant. If it's a pure metal weapon, you can add its pure metal properties to one of your mecha's weapons of your choice. If you leave it in your mecha after you exit, then it counts as a Coat of Arms of the respective material in mecha scale. When you board again, it will need another 1d3 rounds for the benefit of the pure metal item to start applying again to the mecha itself.
Kind of sounds like you get the benefit of the item, not metal-properties only, and one of the benefits of armor is an armor bonus to AC. If you exit it becomes a coat of arms, w/e that is.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 18, 2017, 12:30:43 PM
Quote
Osl has like zero consistency (see hp points from before) and prone to editing things.
Usually I find that the pattern is easy to spot as far as consistency goes but like all homebrew it helps to make sure everything is as intended in. WotC pays people to publish stuff and they run through the same issues even with a team testing stuff. Hard to cover every angle. Editing stuff is a good idea to fix stuff.

Quote
I'll just go with w/e you want since you wrote the Rod and attempt to abuse it from there. :p
Sounds fair!  ;)

Quote
For example two Linked MSZ-010 ΖΖ Beam Rifles. One gets changed into a Control Rod and acquires the Rifle's Power, Disarming, Volatile, & Linked traits. As a mech-channeled Class Feature it counts as a Mech-Weapon so it's damage isn't minimized, but it's still a Control Rod and not Arsenal/Built-Ins. When Full-Attacking @3 attacks, the real rifle fires three shots and the Rod fires once at x3.

Sound right?
Almost. It wouldn't work because the twin-linked MSZ-010 ΖΖ Beam Rifles follow the standard mecha rule on how twin-linked works; which is that both weapons must be of the same kind. Since one of the MSZ-010 ΖΖ Beam Rifles is now a control rod, they are no longer the same. If you could convert the second MSZ-010 ΖΖ Beam Rifles or any other twin-linked weapon into a second control rod, then both control rods would qualify for twin-linked. (Such as the initiating Nuclear Fusion “Solar Gnosis”: Hi-Tension Blade v2.0 for two control rods or by having two Divine Flame stances active or any other trick. Such as, say, using the Gamble/Fortune spirit to steal a control rod with the twin-linked property of an "enemy" mecha you'd destroy and patch it to your own mecha.)

If you used a Pair super upgrade, however, the control rod would remain paired to the other weapon that is chosen as part of the pair and won't care anymore about the 'same weapon' rule. The attacks would then work as you described.

Quote
@Anomander: the red thing is a gundam/40k joke. I have no idea why that justified a serious response... :T
I know about the red color thing. But I thought it implied you were looking out for yet greater speeds. Which could make perfect sense given the setting has effects that improve with distance moved.

Quote
Anomander is explicitly serious responses  :lmao
:)

Quote from: RD
You two are going to be the death of me. ;~;
I still got a Moon Atomizer if that happens. Don't worry.

Quote
-The unblockable dvati feat has been banned and erased from the monster class.
Hey, you're the one who said I should consider getting better anti-jamming capacities. It was a cool feature. Too bad.
Oh well.  There are other ways, just not as cool.

Quote
If you exit it becomes a coat of arms, w/e that is.
In pure crafting it's that thing at the end of each category that happens when you put a set of such items into a heap to have then generate a special effect. That one is supposed to operate only as a fixed structure.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 18, 2017, 04:14:42 PM
I don't have any effects linked to going fast, though. I just go fast. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 18, 2017, 04:21:46 PM
Fun Facts.
The web site charactercounttool says my follower post's readability level is "college graduate". Other statistics include 24,262 characters, 4,009 words, I used the letter 'e' 8.1% of the time, it should take you thirty-three minutes to read it out loud, 53% of the document uses "difficult" words, 46% of the words are short (<3) while 23% are long (>7) leaving 34% for in between, the most common number is 14 while the most common word is "b]".  :lol

I don't have any effects linked to going fast, though. I just go fast. xD
Have you considered Burning Justice's Stances? One gives +1 AC/Saves per 15mu moved and the other gives +1 Att/Dmg per 20mu moved. Kuro might be using those in his next level and Ano is now offering a +60% speed aura.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 18, 2017, 05:31:30 PM
Those aren't Burning Justice, those're Into the Danger Zone, which loses me the effect of the Burning Justice feat. It'd be neat offensively and go well with my top speed, but...

Well, for one I simply don't have enough energy to use full speed in a mecha let alone after raising it even further. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 18, 2017, 06:40:13 PM
Well, for one I simply don't have enough energy to use full speed in a mecha let alone after raising it even further. :lmao
It costs 0 Energy to move on the ground.
It'd also technically cost 0 Energy to fly too if you used magic ;)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 18, 2017, 07:01:46 PM
Quote
It costs 0 Energy to move on the ground.
It'd also technically cost 0 Energy to fly too if you used magic ;)
Unfortunately the rule for flying with a mecha overrules everything (though that's quite all right all things considered). Flight by any means has an energy cost. I previously got confirmation on this.
However, Ama could totally do all the moving on the ground and then use flight only to cover the elevation bit.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 18, 2017, 10:19:29 PM
Move around a lot and utilise spring attack, get +18ish to hit/damage with a 60% speedboost and no flying (somehow getting the speed boosts on flight and enough energy would lead to +90ish, I think).

Which, after the Sadism mess in another game, I'm not all that willing to mess with.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 19, 2017, 07:01:07 AM
Quote
-The unblockable dvati feat has been banned and erased from the monster class.
Hey, you're the one who said I should consider getting better anti-jamming capacities.
I never said "better". The whole point was that long-range instant reliable communication makes most stories much harder to tell.


I thought it just granted the effects of the metal, not any sort of equipment. Getting random sourcebook armour at mecha scale for free doesn't seem like the point of the ability.

Correct. Armor properties apply to mecha armor. It does matters if it's heavy/medium/light armor (and you need the respective proficiency), and several specific abilities care about your Bab too, like the DCs.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 19, 2017, 10:09:40 AM
Quote
It costs 0 Energy to move on the ground.
It'd also technically cost 0 Energy to fly too if you used magic ;)
Unfortunately the rule for flying with a mecha overrules everything (though that's quite all right all things considered). Flight by any means has an energy cost. I previously got confirmation on this.
However, Ama could totally do all the moving on the ground and then use flight only to cover the elevation bit.

I get the reason behind that, but remind me how it works in outer space, where flying is supposed to be easier because you don't have to fight gravity off?  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 19, 2017, 10:18:17 AM
Which, after the Sadism mess in another game, I'm not all that willing to mess with.
I can appreciate that and I'm glad you considered it that way.

I get the reason behind that, but remind me how it works in outer space, where flying is supposed to be easier because you don't have to fight gravity off?  :P
Well without air resistance to slow you down once you get up to speed you just keep going without doing anything and... Oh. Yeah...  ;)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 19, 2017, 11:36:09 AM
Quote
It costs 0 Energy to move on the ground.
It'd also technically cost 0 Energy to fly too if you used magic ;)
Unfortunately the rule for flying with a mecha overrules everything (though that's quite all right all things considered). Flight by any means has an energy cost. I previously got confirmation on this.
However, Ama could totally do all the moving on the ground and then use flight only to cover the elevation bit.

I get the reason behind that, but remind me how it works in outer space, where flying is supposed to be easier because you don't have to fight gravity off?  :P

The reason is "I want catgirls to be alive in this setting".

Machines in space need to keep their engines burning to move because rule of cool.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 19, 2017, 11:51:11 AM
The reason is "I want catgirls to be alive in this setting".
Machines in space need to keep their engines burning to move because rule of cool.
I lol'ed.

Mostly at the catgirls fall under the rule of cool instead another rule you may know.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 19, 2017, 03:12:22 PM
Well, it could be handled differently in zero G. Such as everything is treated as being "land". After all, even mechas that only have land speeds can move around in space.
Or just keeping a fixed energy cost per round for space combat if only to stabilize the movement, to actual stop moving forever. Stopping technically costs as much as going.
Considering hovering in place within an atmosphere has no actual cost, it may be a moot point, still.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 19, 2017, 07:41:55 PM
Speaking of totally random animal parts on humans.

Can you buy Grafts for Mechs? Mechs are creatures and most Grafts don't care about size, but it does seem a little odd. Useful through, like the Elemental ones open up Earth Gliding for Burrowing Speeds on surface missions and Rollers (muag) turn you into a Code Geas mech with rollerskates.

Also are your Grafts channeled like Class Features are as well? Like if I pick up Serpent Fangs to add poison to a bite attack, does the mech's channeled-dragon's bite also gain poison?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 19, 2017, 08:57:07 PM
Well, it could be handled differently in zero G. Such as everything is treated as being "land". After all, even mechas that only have land speeds can move around in space.
Or just keeping a fixed energy cost per round for space combat if only to stabilize the movement, to actual stop moving forever. Stopping technically costs as much as going.
Considering hovering in place within an atmosphere has no actual cost, it may be a moot point, still.

Hovering is basically outputting enough energy that you aren't affected by gravity in a planet while already in an elevated position (the sum of your hoverwhatevers and gravity is zero). In space, gravity isn't an issue provided there is nothing with greater mass than yourself (anything else is bound to feel your personal gravity more than you are bound to feel the gravity of something with less than your own mass, because inertia among other things, actual physicists are of course free to correct me).

In order to actually need to expend enough energy to stand still in space, you would need to be affected by force greater than the gravity of a planet (since hovering costs nothing and we have already established that hovering outputs enough energy to cancel out gravity).

Here's an interesting thought: whichever version of Gurren Lagann is at least the size of a planet cannot actually travel through space without attracting smaller planets/celestial bodies towards it, at least if they come within roughly 0,38 million kilometers of it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 19, 2017, 09:27:49 PM
Quote
Mechs are creatures
It's been a point brought up often across the mech threads (mostly because I kept making that mistake) that a mecha is not a construct or any other kind of creature. They are objects.
Objects with special properties channeling your actions and stuff. Not saying they cant have grafts because of that. Just correcting the creature's assumption.

Quote
does the mech's channeled-dragon's bite also gain poison?
I had a ruling that a class ability (the Charisma Drain) that gives additional effects to a natural weapon can be applied on a mecha weapon that isn't a natural weapon through the Amplifier upgrade (though turns out that the ability doesn't apply to the natural weapons after all, but any weapon).
Grafts can be channeled through a mecha as much as a magic item, and there is no mention that they can. But then again there is no mention that racial abilities can be channeled either and there is confirmation that they do, so it's unclear.

Quote
In order to actually need to expend enough energy to stand still in space, you would need to be affected by force greater than the gravity of a planet (since hovering costs nothing and we have already established that hovering outputs enough energy to cancel out gravity).
I meant energy to stop moving mostly to cancel out the forces that makes it drift away; those used to move in the first place.
Although think about this: When you fall in DnD, you fall a distance of "500 feet the first round and 1,000 feet each round thereafter." That's the movement hovering cancels out.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 19, 2017, 10:11:01 PM
It's been a point brought up often across the mech threads (mostly because I kept making that mistake) that a mecha is not a construct or any other kind of creature. They are objects.
By definition of an object/creature any mech with the Sentient upgrade is not through and that is a very important distinction that is often ignored.

I had a ruling that a class ability (the Charisma Drain) that gives additional effects to a natural weapon can be applied on a mecha weapon that isn't a natural weapon through the Amplifier upgrade (though turns out that the ability doesn't apply to the natural weapons after all, but any weapon).
You may want to revisit that.
No, like said, only self buffs. Things that improve your attacks work, but abilities that affects other targets require an amplifier.
Basically if it's shooting/throwing something out there, you need an Amplifier, otherwise your mecha is supposed to be customized to take advantage of them or can be adapted on the fly for it.
If your Class Feature is buffing your Natural Weapons, you don't need Amplifier.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 19, 2017, 11:14:02 PM
... is my mecha a creature or object? I think it has two Sentient upgrades. :lmao

Here's an interesting thought: whichever version of Gurren Lagann is at least the size of a planet cannot actually travel through space without attracting smaller planets/celestial bodies towards it, at least if they come within roughly 0,38 million kilometers of it.

Cathedral Terra/Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann. Also Diebuster and Getter Emperor are that size off the top of my head.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 19, 2017, 11:24:56 PM
Quote
By definition of an object/creature any mech with the Sentient upgrade is not through and that is a very important distinction that is often ignored.
I thought so too and it was the main reason I had brought it up back then, but apparently not.
Quote from: Oslecamo
Quote from: Anomander
...Also, once your mecha gains sentience, would it be considered weird, or maybe even a little creepy, to have relationship feats with your mecha as the target?
Mechas, even if sentient, just as intelligent equipment are not individuals.

I have the recollection of mentioning at some point that intelligent items are actually creatures since, as the SRD puts it, "Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs."
I vaguely remember that the ruling was that they were to be treated as objects all the same.

Quote
If your Class Feature is buffing your Natural Weapons, you don't need Amplifier.
Correct. The ruling was to have it applied to an arsenal/built-in weapon instead of a natural weapon. Otherwise it wouldn't have been needed.
The ability could apply to any weapon from the beginning instead of just natural weapons so turns out I didn't need an Amplifier after all.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 20, 2017, 12:04:34 AM
... is my mecha a creature or object? I think it has two Sentient upgrades. :lmao
A sentient mech is a living Mindless-Creature according to it's Ability Scores and the RC reenforces the concept that a you cannot be a creature & an object at the same time.

I thought so too and it was the main reason I had brought it up back then, but apparently not.
Osl has a history of not knowing D&D's rules and very poorly writing his own but it actually it appears you misread it.

...Also, once your mecha gains sentience, would it be considered weird, or maybe even a little creepy, to have relationship feats with your mecha as the target?
Mechas, even if sentient, just as intelligent equipment are not individuals.
And as we can see his statement says they are creatures, because Intelligent Magic Items are, and then he denies them individualism preventing you from forming a relationship with it.

He's not denying that they are creatures, rather saying they are nonunique or possibly a hivemind that expands and shares your sense of self in the case of the Imprint Upgrade. You cannot have a relationship with no one or everyone, and presumably yourself, so a sentient mech cannot be the target of a relationship feat.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 20, 2017, 12:30:21 AM
... is my mecha a creature or object? I think it has two Sentient upgrades. :lmao
Object.

Here's an interesting thought: whichever version of Gurren Lagann is at least the size of a planet cannot actually travel through space without attracting smaller planets/celestial bodies towards it, at least if they come within roughly 0,38 million kilometers of it.

Cathedral Terra/Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann. Also Diebuster and Getter Emperor are that size off the top of my head.

Last warning, any more discussion about real world physics and the campaign will change to undead catgirl apocalypse.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 20, 2017, 12:37:39 AM
Osl has a history of not knowing D&D's rules and very poorly writing his own but it actually it appears you misread it.
Ok so you didn't, Osl just doesn't know what he's talking about.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 20, 2017, 12:43:20 AM
Here's an interesting thought: whichever version of Gurren Lagann is at least the size of a planet cannot actually travel through space without attracting smaller planets/celestial bodies towards it, at least if they come within roughly 0,38 million kilometers of it.

Cathedral Terra/Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann. Also Diebuster and Getter Emperor are that size off the top of my head.

Last warning, any more discussion about real world physics and the campaign will change to undead catgirl apocalypse.

Naming planetary-sized mecha isn't physics. :T
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 20, 2017, 03:27:56 AM
Quote
Ok so you didn't, Osl just doesn't know what he's talking about.
Could do with less aggressivity. Intelligent items being creatures isn't exactly common knowledge. Especially considering the lack of any HD whatsoever.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 20, 2017, 05:27:39 AM
What if you cast Awaken Object on a mecha?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 21, 2017, 05:03:13 AM
As far as I'm aware there's no Awaken Object, only the classic Awaken and then Awaken Construct.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 21, 2017, 05:34:23 AM
Sorry. I mixed up two spells. Animate Objects and Awaken Construct.

What if you Awaken Construct an object affected with Animate Objects if said object is a mecha?  :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 21, 2017, 11:12:35 AM
I decided to do some maths for carrying capacity. Amaterasu's maximum load is 66,560lb, or about 33 tons. The mecha's a full three size categories bigger, and it seems to be a doubling for every extra size category... so... 260ish tons. The mecha itself is about 560'ish tall, so bigger than early battleships.

Yet they weigh over 10,000 tons. Even a medium mecha's probably in the 150-200ish range. So... almost no mecha has the strength to lift another one. :D

As usual, D&D does not scale well with size... :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 21, 2017, 11:44:11 AM
I could've sworn both mecha weight and carrying capacity scaled differently past colossal...
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 21, 2017, 11:45:20 AM
As usual, D&D does not scale well with size... :lmao
Actually that's real life for you, giant humans would crush them selves.

What if you Awaken Construct an object affected with Animate Objects if said object is a mecha?  :lmao
Pfft, as a Object it has a Hardness rating (not DR) and it takes 1/2 damage from Piercing/Cold/Fire and there are plenty of buffs out there to increase or even double your Hardness. It still won't help you against Disintegrate through, which can wipe 10cumu of your mech from existence (target the cockpit!). Also, even as Imprinted & Sentient it's apparently still an object making it virtually immune to most Spells, Maneuvers, and effects in the game. Like why does it need a Save Bonus against being Stunned? It's immune to Stun. Hell, as a carried or worn object you can't even attack the mech without using a Sunder Action, just beat the pilots up directly. >.>
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 21, 2017, 01:50:00 PM
They wouldn't because MINOVSKY PARTICLES
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 21, 2017, 02:52:15 PM
They wouldn't because MINOVSKY PARTICLES
And that's also the explanation how an Object has a Creature Type ;)

Fact is Osl's rules only work if they are treated as Creatures to begin with. Saying they are supposed to be Objects when unpiloted and without an AI would work as a patch so you can break/steal/throw them around as piles of inanimate metal, but claiming they are always objects is one of those things that'll break everything from the basics of D&D to everything he inadvertently wrote.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 21, 2017, 04:04:17 PM
As usual, D&D does not scale well with size... :lmao
Actually that's real life for you, giant humans would crush them selves.

Yeah, the issue with D&D is that they scale carrying capacity and weight incorrectly. It should be going up by factors of 8, not doubling. Only armour size should be a bit different; it's not getting thicker so probably somewhere around x4 because the extra material is scaling with area. :T

But we end up with giant magical creatures and stuff that can't carry what they should be able to. When their weight even makes sense and there aren't Wailord-esque densities.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 21, 2017, 04:51:48 PM
Yeah, the issue with D&D is that they scale carrying capacity and weight incorrectly. It should be going up by factors of 8, not doubling.
You're forgetting that normally Strength increases when you increase Size.

A Medium-to-Colossal alteration normally gives +32 Str multiplying your base carrying capability by at least x64 which is then increased by x16 for Size Modifier. IE a x1,024/x4,096 or 1:4 ratio in an attempt to mimic the bellcurve of real life.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 21, 2017, 05:30:06 PM
When the monster progression rules are applied. That isn't really consistent across the game. :T
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 21, 2017, 07:52:00 PM
Sorry. I mixed up two spells. Animate Objects and Awaken Construct.

What if you Awaken Construct an object affected with Animate Objects if said object is a mecha?  :lmao

Then its mecha stats would be replaced by animated object stats.

I decided to do some maths for carrying capacity. Amaterasu's maximum load is 66,560lb, or about 33 tons. The mecha's a full three size categories bigger, and it seems to be a doubling for every extra size category... so... 260ish tons. The mecha itself is about 560'ish tall, so bigger than early battleships.

Yet they weigh over 10,000 tons. Even a medium mecha's probably in the 150-200ish range. So... almost no mecha has the strength to lift another one. :D

As usual, D&D does not scale well with size... :lmao

That and also a common point of mechas is that they're made of very light materials. Gundams are made of Gundanium which is supposed to be pretty light at only 43 tons for the RX-78-2 and Mazinger Z is made of alloy Z weighting only 20 tons despite being a bit taller than the basic gundam. Wing Zero is 8 tons and the other mechs on that continuity aren't that different. And Gurren Laggan is made of condensed hope or something.

Also that's getting awfully close to a real world physics discussion.

However I'll excuse you this time because Wing Gundam indeed starts with Zechs defeating Heero simply by grappling their mobile suits so that the Zero Wing can't hold their combined weight and falls down. :smirk
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 21, 2017, 08:57:11 PM
Hey, carrying capacity is a game mechanic and working out if something is liftable is entirely reasonable. Of course I'm going to use ships as a basis: most other vehicles are squarer and I didn't assume mecha were made out of balsa wood and balloons. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 21, 2017, 09:40:50 PM
That and also a common point of mechas is that they're made of very light materials.
All Scifi things use made up lighter/tougher-than-steel as an easy explanation and in D&D we actually have such materials printed already :D
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 21, 2017, 10:02:02 PM
Hey, carrying capacity is a game mechanic and working out if something is liftable is entirely reasonable. Of course I'm going to use ships as a basis: most other vehicles are squarer and I didn't assume mecha were made out of balsa wood and balloons. :p

Well there's a reason landships were never a viable thing. A real world battleship can get away with being built of heavy normal steel because it will be moving over water. But if you want something the size of a mecha that can move on land  let alone jumping, flying and flying off into space, you need to be made of really light stuff.

Also trivia, EVAs can be anywhere within 40-200 meters in height and 700 to 96,000 metrics tons in weight depending on the scene you're using as measurement, and the authors specifically refused to give any precise official stats specifically so they could animate whatever they wanted.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 21, 2017, 11:24:14 PM
EVAs are somewhat inspired by Ultraman if I recall correctly. So variable size and time limits.

Other mecha are considerably less variable, even amongst Gainax's stuff. We know pretty damn well how big the various Buster Machines are. And, of all places, Gurren Lagann. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 22, 2017, 02:17:14 PM
So I guess we're doing some split up and forwarding to the next scene(s)?

I plan to take Zero State, because I have a firm belief Osl is incapable of nerfing it to a point I wouldn't want it, so I can just use that to tag along with Kuro's interrogation and Ketaro's shopping spree. :)

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 22, 2017, 02:55:15 PM
I'm working out if I can get a temporary save bonus to manage something else.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 22, 2017, 03:37:45 PM
Well explain what for and I might be able to help.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 22, 2017, 03:45:56 PM
Half-Golem. She's already visibly down a hand, so the healing check isn't really an issue and "things available when working for the androids" probably include "better mechanical bodyparts". I'd just rather avoid failing the will save. <_<;
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 22, 2017, 04:39:17 PM
Oh heck that's easy. Heal isn't trained and
Quote from: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2750.0
Other people can help the operation process by attempting a DC 15 Heal check, (This assistance is non-stressful and fairly simple, and these assistants may take 10). Each successful Heal check grants the Character a +2 bonus to its Will save at the end of the Ritual. These assistants must partake in the 24 hour ritual. People wanting to play safe will hire several experts to assist the ritual.
it's pretty much impossible to fail. It's 3sp per day for a trained hireling who presumably has at least 4 ranks and either a masterwork tool or 12 wisdom allowing them to auto-succeed. So for 3gp you can gain a +20 bonus :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 22, 2017, 05:43:52 PM
... I always forget you can pay people. :lmao

Also the materials list is hilarious. I question why perfectly sane and intelligent characters are allowed to attach body parts made of food to themselves.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 22, 2017, 05:47:55 PM
Amaterasu would look astonishing as a half-birthday cake golem.
Quote
perfectly sane and intelligent
Most of the discussions following such undertakings probably ended with the mantra "For science".
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 22, 2017, 05:48:16 PM
Also the materials list is hilarious. I question why perfectly sane and intelligent characters are allowed to attach body parts made of food to themselves.
Isn't all meat food to someone higher up on the chain?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 22, 2017, 05:48:41 PM
Amaterasu would look astonishing as a half-birthday cake golem.
Seconded.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 22, 2017, 06:02:04 PM
But I'm already immune to fire, that seems like a questionable decision. Plus it's only a -1 will penalty, that's not that bad judgement. XD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 22, 2017, 06:56:28 PM
Never said anything about it being efficient. The benefit in the fire immunity however would be that since most of your atomic stuff deals fire damage too, exposing yourself to your own area damage could heal you.

For something efficient, there's Retrospect (since you move fast, you can make yourself move through stuff). Reese and Skippy peanut butter have interesting defensive properties. Woodwrath/mud/sand can use your move speed to create annoying AoE and if you walk through enemy squares any movement triggers it as they are almost forced to move through it. Otherwise any +STR/CON that has any synergy with the rest of your build would do the trick.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 22, 2017, 07:09:47 PM
Yeah, there's a lot of options. Decision paralysis kicks in.

I think for spending at least some of my money (Having forgotten how much it is and any costs associated with pure metals) I'm going for strongarm bracers so I can stick this axe in one hand and get a shield. Swap to pure cold iron (don't need fortification on armour now) and get SR and, usefully, the ability to move through magical obstacles. And more AC.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 23, 2017, 05:53:36 PM
Amaterasu would look astonishing as a half-birthday cake golem.
Seconded.
Hugo believes she would look even more astonishing as the girl who jumps out of the birthday cake. *runs*
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 23, 2017, 06:21:41 PM
Hugo believes she would look even more astonishing as the girl who jumps out of the birthday cake. *runs*
I think it's settled, Kathrine needs more cake.

any costs associated with pure metals
I believe up to Masterwork is immediately available. And as I understand it...
Basic Pure Metal is Item+600gp.
Masterwork Pure Metal is Item+10,650gp.
Mindful Masterwork Pure Metal is not a Masterwork Item, you are strictly increasing the quality of the alloy.

So Basic Pure & Mwk Armor is Item, +600 for metal, +150 for WotC's "masterwork" which gives -1 ACP & the ability to enhance it.
Thus a Medium-Sized +2 Masterwork Pure Cold Iron Masterwork Heavy Shield costs 14,820gp.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 23, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
Where are you pulling those numbers from? I was certain there'd be an extra cost over normal MW, but I don't know what post you're referencing for said price.

Reminds me that I've yet to get around to playing the Fighter/Saint/Collector of Feats thing I once did. Something about this just amused me to no end. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10258.msg168126#msg168126)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 23, 2017, 07:13:49 PM
I thought you couldn't do enhancement bonuses to pure metal? That was kinda the point of it right?

Yes! Get Kat a cake filled with Ammy~
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 23, 2017, 07:28:17 PM
I thought you couldn't do enhancement bonuses to pure metal? That was kinda the point of it right?

Yup.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 23, 2017, 07:33:45 PM
Where are you pulling those numbers from? I was certain there'd be an extra cost over normal MW, but I don't know what post you're referencing for said price.
*looks back on it*

Looks like a giant heap of confusion. I didn't get back to update my post that inaccurate lists "Masterwork" instead of "Relicwork" and this was coming right after Osl was like Masterwork Pure Metal costs 350/300gp.

But I found this.
Quote
Pure Metal items cannot be further enanched or changed by any kind of magic or special crafting methods.
So you can't Enhance them anyway.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 23, 2017, 07:43:02 PM
Yeah, I was just wondering if there was any sort of additional surcharge for buying the Pure Metal version in this campaign.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 23, 2017, 07:45:02 PM
Yeah, I was just wondering if there was any sort of additional surcharge for buying the Pure Metal version in this campaign.
Someone asked a few pages ago about hte availability of Pure Metal items and they were capped at a certain level. Maybe I can find the post...

Rainy, your inbox is full. So here's my response :p

So I've basically discovered all the crafting prices for pure metal items are supposed to be tripled if sold on the market because it works just like mundane crafting where crafting price is 1/3 market price.

Phantasmwork anything is 210k gold ignoring epic rules for breaking 200k.

In Os' game we have access to any kind of pure metal, but only up to masterwork quality. Comes out to 900gp plus normal weapon's cost for any masterwork pure metal item or 750gp plus base armor cost for any pure metal armor of masterwork quality.

I think he said the option to commission higher grade stuff was around, too.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 23, 2017, 07:55:58 PM
Ahah, that was the post I couldn't find.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 24, 2017, 01:18:49 AM
Lol, I like how our confusion on this page was already addressed a page or two ago  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 24, 2017, 01:28:14 AM
Lol, I like how our confusion on this page was already addressed a page or two ago  :P

I wasn't confused, just lost. I knew the information I wanted was around somewhere but I couldn't remember where in which thread. :T
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on February 24, 2017, 01:59:57 AM
Since there appears to have been a misunderstanding, Masterwork pure metal weapons/armor still gain the benefits of "normal" Masterwork. Aka +1 to hit with weapons and -1 ACP with armors. That's why I used the same keyword.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 24, 2017, 03:13:45 PM
I got my reference post (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6584.msg320400#msg320400) for Pure Craft updated.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 25, 2017, 01:40:18 PM
So, getting around to pricing this armour/shield out (Cold Iron, MW), it's either 5640 for chain shirt + shield, and even with the strongarm bracers Amaterasu is becoming a loot pinata, or 61440 depending on what number I'm multiplying by size. I think this is going to need to be commissioned either way... :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 25, 2017, 04:55:27 PM
Okay. I'm trying to decide how I'll build my regular cohort and I've got two main paths to propose:

1- Cohort that is a ultimate uniform that will increase the Str and Dex by 8 for 2 to 6 party members. While on foot, could take a lethal blow for them once but then vanish.
Each member would also get a significant bonus (I can probably reach +7 to +9 depending on the number of allies getting it) to Atk and AC.
2- Cohort that acts as a spirit bank to recharge party members with half Hp or energy/spirit refill ever so often. HP and energy having about a 1 round cooldown or so. Perhaps revive a destroyed party member ever so often and bring back 1 to 3 destroyed allied mecha after a battle.

I can make the #2 pretty darn useful though it *will* involve a cooldown of 1 to 3 rounds depending on how much is done, so those rounds would have no benefit whereas #1 is helping every round (and preserves me the work on spirit points management, which can be both fun and a drag). Since a few of us can find STR and DEX pretty useful, I'm thinking the party would probably prefer #1, but I though I'd ask here first before I start working on the build and type what' I have in mind.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 25, 2017, 05:00:26 PM
Spirits are more interesting than turning one of your feats into something like 300,000 gold's worth of magic items that will be compensated for in about 10s. Restore limited resources rather than inflate numbers. <_<
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 25, 2017, 05:39:00 PM
HP and Energy aren't much of a limited resource and energy got much easier to refill than before.
The extra spirits recovery would be the main interest in #2 and it is the build path I was leaning toward. Efficiency-wise I don't think it is as good as #1 since it'll help everyone beat the AC of the stuff we encounter and #2'll likely rely on "dirty tricks". But that last one is relative.

For spirits recovery there's nothing like the Peace Princess, though. I'd probably build one if I wasn't playing an android.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 25, 2017, 05:54:06 PM
If everyone gets +6 Attack, the enemies are going to get +6AC. Universal constant boosts are the opposite of helpful. :T
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 25, 2017, 06:13:30 PM
Quote
If everyone gets +6 Attack, the enemies are going to get +6AC
It'll have to come from somewhere. You'd get other number synergy beyond a straight AtK/AC boost, still. But if the issue is that everyone is getting it, then I can fix that no problem.
Quote
Universal constant boosts are the opposite of helpful. :T
I'll respectfully disagree. Completely.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 26, 2017, 01:40:07 PM
Minor note, I like bonuses.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 26, 2017, 02:09:34 PM
Any boost that applies more or less evenly across the party just strikes me as a waste, because the GM has no shortage of options to immediately equalise something whilst providing no distinct boost and, instead, an opportunity to forget it and get the numbers wrong.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 26, 2017, 02:39:04 PM
That's a pretty poor argument, nothing is preventing the DM from either applying or not adding any sort of bonus.

It's also like you're trying to say if a Bard uses Inspire Competence then all enemies on the field also gain the same bonuses to attack/damage, but if the Bard only chooses to buff one quarter of the party then one quarter of the enemies won't be similarly buffed (or all the enemies buffed one quarter?). :rolleyes
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 26, 2017, 03:08:52 PM
Maybe if it wasn't coming from the awe-inspiringly difficult cost of 'part of one feat'. The bonuses listed amount to a constant +11 to attack and defence. "Half the range of the die roll extra" is too big a swing to not be negated. <_<
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 26, 2017, 06:17:46 PM
That's the arms race that is our lives,  yo. Not wanting to be part of the race doesn't exclude you from the race.  ;)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on February 26, 2017, 07:38:31 PM
Ultimate Uniform no longer works within a mecha now anyway (at least, not without using a 'puppet' trick to control the actions of the UU remotely, which I'd prefer not to invest on). I can still grab one for those of us who tends to fight outside of the bigger mechas. Not sure they still work with a nanoarmor since they aren't passengers. If any of you want one.
Plenty of ideas though none that really fit with the style of our team-members.  :-\

Ditching the uniform levels make spirit points banking all the more easier though. Pretty slick numbers can be reached with only 6-8 pilot levels.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 27, 2017, 12:15:37 AM
What's this Ultimate Uniform thing?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 27, 2017, 12:39:05 AM
A Kill la Kill inspired PrC for Ragamuffyns
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 27, 2017, 12:58:31 AM
So it IS a Kill La Kill thing. I hadn't looked but I was thinking so
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on February 27, 2017, 01:05:45 AM
*shrugs*

It's not a show I'd watch.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 27, 2017, 01:10:00 AM
I watched it when it was airing. I just didn't know whether the name was a reference.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 27, 2017, 10:34:19 AM
A Kill la Kill inspired PrC for Ragamuffyns
I suspected it was based off Kill la Kill but I wasn't sure whether it was an item or a PrC.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 27, 2017, 11:48:26 AM
I suspected it was based off Kill la Kill but I wasn't sure whether it was an item or a PrC.
Oh that's easy.

It's a construct with ability scores and it's own Special Abilities that is worn by a living character and bestows bonuses to them. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16306.0)
So it's an "object" ;)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 27, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
I suspected it was based off Kill la Kill but I wasn't sure whether it was an item or a PrC.
Oh that's easy.

It's a construct with ability scores and it's own Special Abilities that is worn by a living character and bestows bonuses to them. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16306.0)
So it's an "object" ;)

The wonderful messy zone inhabited by intelligent weapons. Or animated objects. Really, making the difference one based on a few mental ability scores was a bad idea just because of then getting weapons using object rules whilst being in creatures, or creatures that aren't in possession of a certain ability score due to stat-drain that don't have the properties required of an object (like Hardness). :T
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on February 27, 2017, 01:02:14 PM
It's actually a pretty clean break down in the rules.

Objects are not Creatures. They don't get Saves, their AC sucks, you could Coup them but they have no organs for Critical Hits, they have no Actions, they do not have Ability Scores, they do no have Types, or pretty much any other properties of Creatures. They have a Break DC to render them useless in one hit and they use Hardness to describe the real life phenomenon of how a metal drill can go through concrete or how cold air really doesn't brother wood all that much. Mechanically controlled Objects, such as Traps, work by cause and effect such as a timer or the Barbarian's Move Action. Irregardless of the trap having moving parts or on a moving boat it's stationary and has no actual Actions it can take if something would to avoid the pressure plate and hit it with a hammer.

Intelligent Magic Items & Animated Objects are expressly Creatures, this is no more confusing than asking why is a Golem a Creature; they can respond to an infinite range of commends and interact with the environment through the same Action limitations as other Creatures and so in order to combat them they use the same basic rules as any other Creature. Like most Intelligent Magic Items have a range of Spells they can employ and by default Golems will defend them selves through duck, dodging, parrying, and such even if they are classified as "mindless". Because even if a Creature has a nonexistent Intelligence Score they still have instincts and basic programed instructions. And speaking of, the rules couldn't care less about philosophy either. A computer is an Object but an AI that with a Wisdom/Charisma Score of 1 or more is a Creature, a helpless, possibly-mindless, not-alive Creature, but a creature never the less. The difference here is that you can make, and fail, a Diplomacy Check to open the pod bay doors vs clicking on the start menu and searching for "open".

Now Animated Objects expressly have an Extraordinary Ability that has a confusing name, sort of like how people thing Grease is flammable, but it's a unique Special Ability to them and it's one of the few methods that involving a Creature acknowledging a Object-specific property. This one I'll kind of grant you, but we're not talking about the base rules at this point over what is or isn't a Creature or Object. We're talking about confusing names on exception-level abilities.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on February 28, 2017, 07:52:14 AM
I suspected it was based off Kill la Kill but I wasn't sure whether it was an item or a PrC.
Oh that's easy.

It's a construct with ability scores and it's own Special Abilities that is worn by a living character and bestows bonuses to them. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16306.0)
So it's an "object" ;)
Eh. Most uniforms in the show have no actual personality traits - Senketsu is pretty unique in that regard. So Senketsu is more of an intelligent magic item. Any restrictions on wearing the Kamui are typically of the cursed item variety.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 28, 2017, 08:31:53 PM
Anyway, I'm still trying to work out equipment pricing.

I would assume that (due to the ability to upgrade Pure Metal* equipment later on) it only operates on the "base" cost of x2 Cold Iron whatever. Rather than applying the x2 and the x16 from size modifiers to the market costs. Need confirmation, though.

*It's called Pure Crafting, why no wood or anything? :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 01, 2017, 02:34:04 AM
Anyway, I'm still trying to work out equipment pricing.

I would assume that (due to the ability to upgrade Pure Metal* equipment later on) it only operates on the "base" cost of x2 Cold Iron whatever. Rather than applying the x2 and the x16 from size modifiers to the market costs. Need confirmation, though.

x2 cost of Cold Iron only applies to the base weapon. The x16 size modifier applies to everything though.

*It's called Pure Crafting, why no wood or anything? :lmao

Because still plenty of metals to stat? :p
Darkwood seems like something that could be done later.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on March 01, 2017, 03:51:37 AM
I only know of Glassteel, Darkwood, and Deep Crystal for non-metal armor materials  :huh
Oh, and dragons. But with how magical dragons innately are, they probably wouldn't mix well with Pure Crafting. Except for the less magical dragons that have Pure Crafting themselves, making Pure armors or whatever from their own scales or something I dunno. Ignore me.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 01, 2017, 09:17:43 AM
Anyway, I'm still trying to work out equipment pricing.

I would assume that (due to the ability to upgrade Pure Metal* equipment later on) it only operates on the "base" cost of x2 Cold Iron whatever. Rather than applying the x2 and the x16 from size modifiers to the market costs. Need confirmation, though.

x2 cost of Cold Iron only applies to the base weapon. The x16 size modifier applies to everything though.

Got to say, that seems pretty arbitrary.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 01, 2017, 01:16:25 PM
It's not arbitrary, simply to make it less effective for super big and super small creatures so that giants and titans and whatnot don't all rush to get full pure metal bling right away. Again, the main objective was to give more effective gear to mundane humie warriors.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 01, 2017, 09:31:23 PM
It's not arbitrary, simply to make it less effective for super big and super small creatures so that giants and titans and whatnot don't all rush to get full pure metal bling right away. Again, the main objective was to give more effective gear to mundane humie warriors.

Your giants start with no armour proficiency and only have 3/4 BAB. That's an... odd concern. It's not something that they're going to be doing all that well. Most of the enormous creatures also have abilities that would be deactivated by using the armour anyway so it's already a double-edged sword. Even the Tarrasque has an SLA. :???

The arbitrariness was more in only one of the multipliers being relevant.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 01, 2017, 09:43:28 PM
I didn't want to punish humie warriors for going for more exotic materials, just that.

From a fluff point of view, once you get the pure adamantine/mythril/whatever, it's only a matter of spending money on tools that will be too worn out when the job is finished and oils and whatnot. But if you want a huge set of armor, that'll mean huge expendable tools and a lot more oils and thus the costs for upgrading are multiplied.

Also the hill giant has light and medium armor proficiency by default, fire giant gets that and heavy, ogres get light.

Only the troll really lacks armor proficiency from the start.

But even then full armor proficiency it's simply a fighter dip away. Heck even if you don't want to dip fighter, the basic troll has the War Troll prestige class waiting at 6th level!
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 01, 2017, 09:51:53 PM
I didn't want to punish humie warriors for going for more exotic materials, just that.

I don't follow how they're punished for larger armour scaling even worse than magic item costs, but okay.

Though I'm still confused that having that much more pure metal doesn't lead to an even larger materials cost.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 01, 2017, 10:01:21 PM
Though I'm still confused that having that much more pure metal doesn't lead to an even larger materials cost.
Psst, that's the point of the Size Modifiers for armor cost, it takes more material to cover a 32ft tall creature than it would to cover an eight footer :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 01, 2017, 10:41:58 PM
Though I'm still confused that having that much more pure metal doesn't lead to an even larger materials cost.
Psst, that's the point of the Size Modifiers for armor cost, it takes more material to cover a 32ft tall creature than it would to cover an eight footer :p

I've got a materials cost of x2.
And a size cost of x16.
So, normally, cost is x32 and MW is a flat increase.

But with special metal the MW cost and base cost are x16 but the materials cost is still x2 of the normal base cost? @_@
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 01, 2017, 11:42:29 PM
On phone here but the x16 size cost is applied to the item's final unenhanced result, not before.

So left to right, it's item + pure metal's basic cost (in this case x2 followed by x3 to convert from raw material to market value) + masterwork = medium item. Then x16 for a colossal verson.

Or say 100gp, +600gp, +300gp, x16, for 16,000gp total.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 02, 2017, 09:48:50 PM
I've got a materials cost of x2.
And a size cost of x16.
So, normally, cost is x32 and MW is a flat increase.

But with special metal the MW cost and base cost are x16 but the materials cost is still x2 of the normal base cost? @_@
x16 size multiplier is applied last after all other costs, including MW. Sharpening a huge pure metal sword is gonna take a lot more resources than a medium sized one.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 03, 2017, 09:06:27 AM
Quote
Her current mandate as an Administrator was to help get the colons to leave the ship and settle on Ragol, after all.

Cover the planet in shit! :D
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on March 03, 2017, 01:53:53 PM
Yes. We want none of that organic business in the ship no more.

Seriously though. "Colon" is about the closest term to the meaning I was aiming for in my language. Colonist/settler is closer in English.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 03, 2017, 02:00:51 PM
I knew what was meant, but so long as language barriers provide puns I'm going to make them.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 05, 2017, 11:35:30 AM
I suppose that's a limited update... Hmm...
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on March 06, 2017, 02:29:51 AM
I thought I'd have my cohort be able to make special potions that replicate specific spells of up to 6th level as an extraordinary ability and that our characters could pay it the service and expenses though I seem to recall there being a campaign rule that makes it so any gear consumables crafted by a cohort/follower/similar can only be used between them and cannot be used by the PCs, otherwise it would do something like making you lose the benefit of the ability that grants the cohort/follower/similar. Am I remembering this right?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 06, 2017, 02:58:53 AM

If you take any equipment owned/crafted by your followers/cohorts/whatever, they'll riot and you won't get any replacements.

 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9781.msg160954#msg160954)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on March 06, 2017, 03:48:56 AM
Yes! That's the one! Thanks.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on March 06, 2017, 04:50:49 AM
Why? Who's to say they're not happy aiding the party like that? Because of personal background and history they may have with a member of the party?

Also, Anomander said
Quote
our characters could pay it the service and expenses
and not that they'd just be taking it. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on March 06, 2017, 10:00:43 AM
It is well explained in the link he put. Just for game balance reasons. I wouldn't mind having characters buy the full "market value" off the character since there is no other way to get those but it's okay. I can just have it get different class abilities.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 06, 2017, 11:52:49 AM
Hmm, I think I landed right on the line then. I went halvies on a Ring of Theurge with my Cohort since it allows us to trade our off-list spells with each other, through she was actually supposed to get more buffs through it before than now. Ended up trading out 5th level Spells for the 3rd level of Ship Captain because it let her pick up Spirit Regen, it helps her spam Defend for 1/4 damage from every single attack ever which is far better than any 5th-level defensive spell offers.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on March 11, 2017, 09:56:22 PM
In case some wonder what to do, there is the black market dude that had stuff those guys were apparently looking for. He's ripe for interrogation.
Maybe a return on those bounty hunters that were captured before. There is also the Aryk girl that got "rescued"


Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on March 12, 2017, 03:02:12 AM
Yanno, whether it's a prank or not, considering the dragon stuff, it's probably suppose to represent a dragon bowing isn't it...?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 12, 2017, 03:25:34 AM
The forelegs down and wings up would be dragonish.
Completing a silly culture thing is a great way to know someone's respects.
But ultimately the position comes from Bleach where the sword guy does the same thing to Ichigo and snaps a picture of it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on March 12, 2017, 03:36:33 AM
Gosh I'd completely forgotten that happened...

And wasn't it the bald spear guy?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 12, 2017, 01:26:08 PM
Gosh I'd completely forgotten that happened...
And wasn't it the bald spear guy?
No, he has a mohawk (http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/522/13).
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on March 12, 2017, 08:58:45 PM
Oh, yeah, I never cared to read the manga. Barely cared to watch the anime to the end -_-'
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 12, 2017, 09:27:27 PM
Hmm, is there a bar on this station that has enough to get someone like this inebriated...

Since that's what mercenaries do when they get paid, right? :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 12, 2017, 10:24:46 PM
Oh, yeah, I never cared to read the manga. Barely cared to watch the anime to the end -_-'
Bleach started strong, had a horrible filler, then repeated it's self, finally climaxed, and then kept going, and rushed some elements that would have been better in a light novel of something, and then it had a whole other third major arc (manga-only), with an increased amount of trolling to try and stay interesting, and then it became canceled and had to rush things.  >.>

You could probably get away with cutting a huge chunk of things out, maybe from Aizen's flip to the direct invasions with maybe an episode or two to summarize some things like the Vizard.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 12, 2017, 10:29:58 PM
Hmm, is there a bar on this station that has enough to get someone like this inebriated...

Since that's what mercenaries do when they get paid, right? :lmao

The local church of light prides itself in sharing the strongest spirits on the ship as long as you make a proper donation. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 12, 2017, 10:32:28 PM
The church of "light"?
What happens if you order the hard stuff instead of the light booze?  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 12, 2017, 10:48:44 PM
Hmm, is there a bar on this station that has enough to get someone like this inebriated...

Since that's what mercenaries do when they get paid, right? :lmao

The local church of light prides itself in sharing the strongest spirits on the ship as long as you make a proper donation. :p

Does "I'm a star, bitch" count as a donation? :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on March 12, 2017, 10:54:17 PM
Gosh I hate you Soro. Now I've started reading the manga right from where that page you linked started from  :shakefist
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 12, 2017, 10:56:52 PM
Gosh I hate you Soro. Now I've started reading the manga right from where that page you linked started from  :shakefist
lol, at least it's done. You don't have to wait 2~4 weeks while Tite is in the hospital immediately following Golden Week just to know who didn't die in the last cliff hanger.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 13, 2017, 12:19:27 AM
Does "I'm a star, bitch" count as a donation? :P

Hmmm, now that you mention it, would make for great publicity by itself, so yes.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 15, 2017, 03:51:29 PM
@Oslecamo,
(click to show/hide)

Also what happens if a Support Staff (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=17727.msg321605#new) builds a Turret on an asteroid?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on March 15, 2017, 08:26:12 PM
Quote
Also what happens if a Support Staff builds a Turret on an asteroid?
I had the very same idea.  :p
Base-up a few and tether-hem together to a spaceship.
The Einst-Ship captain can control an asteroid too so it'll be inconspicuous.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 15, 2017, 10:52:34 PM
Support staff Turrets can only be built on bases and bases need 10 000 square miles of area to support them. That's the size of a tiny country and considerably bigger than your average gundam space colony. So you get a mostly stationary space fortress, not something you can move around easily, and certainly not something you want to get anywhere near a planet's surface unless you want to be remembered as a genocidical monster after it drops and kills most of the local life (plus losing your base).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 15, 2017, 11:55:39 PM
10,000 square miles seems more than a bit excessive for one base. It's far more than enough for an entire army depending on the level of mobilisation... <_>

Area of the first big asteroid that came to mind (the one at the end of the Cretaceous) would've been ~500 square kilometres, so making it somewhat lower would probably not greatly change things.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on March 16, 2017, 03:03:06 AM
Quote
Does this ship has an Omura Company center?
Does it? Pretty sure Mao would know this.

Also, do your games have Int increases retroactively applying to skill points? I forgot.

Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 23, 2017, 04:43:10 AM
Quote
Does this ship has an Omura Company center?
Does it? Pretty sure Mao would know this.
Yes, it even has big neon signs and runs ads all over the ship.

Also, do your games have Int increases retroactively applying to skill points? I forgot.
No.

10,000 square miles seems more than a bit excessive for one base. It's far more than enough for an entire army depending on the level of mobilisation... <_>

Area of the first big asteroid that came to mind (the one at the end of the Cretaceous) would've been ~500 square kilometres, so making it somewhat lower would probably not greatly change things.

As shown, 10 000 square miles was not big enough to stop people from going "Base-up a few and tether-hem together to a spaceship".

If I had gone any lower now I would have to deal with suggestions of just cramming bases inside their character's pockets or  someone wanting to use bases as ammo for weapons.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on March 23, 2017, 05:38:37 AM
I think of it as more 10,000 square miles is just the land grab and the physical base's building is a lot smaller.

Yanno, like how real world military bases are not build smack dab in the middle of a packed city but out in the middle of nowhere where they can adjudicate themselves having absolutely nothing else nearby that can be used to snoop on the base. It makes security easier when your base is surrounded by nothing but empty space so nobody is coming up on that unannounced. Or down in the middle of a heavy jungle that naturally hides the base from far-spying eyes and/or satellites. If nobody knows it's there, nobody'll know when the people guarding the base just up and murder people for getting to close and publicly chalk it up to "got lost and probably eaten by wild animals".
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 23, 2017, 01:02:24 PM
I think of it as more 10,000 square miles is just the land grab and the physical base's building is a lot smaller.

Yanno, like how real world military bases are not build smack dab in the middle of a packed city but out in the middle of nowhere where they can adjudicate themselves having absolutely nothing else nearby that can be used to snoop on the base. It makes security easier when your base is surrounded by nothing but empty space so nobody is coming up on that unannounced. Or down in the middle of a heavy jungle that naturally hides the base from far-spying eyes and/or satellites. If nobody knows it's there, nobody'll know when the people guarding the base just up and murder people for getting to close and publicly chalk it up to "got lost and probably eaten by wild animals".

Now that depends what the purpose of the base is.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on March 23, 2017, 02:57:45 PM
No it doesn't  :P Because everyone in dnd that has a base of operations is paranoid about this shit~
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 23, 2017, 03:48:28 PM
If I had gone any lower now I would have to deal with suggestions of just cramming bases inside their character's pockets or  someone wanting to use bases as ammo for weapons
I like the idea but honestly who cares? With a capped none-Epic Leadership Score of 25 you can only have four turrets for 8d12*4, that's 208 damage but totally useless if the target is within 300mu. Four 4th level Super Pilots can use Growth, Extra, Tank Mode, and Mighty x3 for 1d10+1d6+6+DexMod*3*4 for 180+ damage, if they have 16 Dex they deal more and they can most of the weapon addons as well. But unlike the turrets they can fire at anyone near by and you know, punch people in the face, split into dozens of clones, hell they could even use Maneuvers.

The main deal is the 10,000 square miles through 300mu range. That's 8,799,700mu of covered range making it utterly impossible for anything to come near it. Like take that 4th level Turret vs a 20th level Ship Captain, assuming they waste their precious 6th level Arsenal Slot on Trombe they have 360mu/rnd without having to stop for energy recharging and it has 46 DR. A 4th level Turret deals a Rending 8d12, or 6 after DR. Ships have 100 energy, lose 10 per hit, and have no Energy Regen by default and the Captain them selves can only regenerate their Spirit once per fifty rounds. Assuming they get three full energy regens off they sustain 120 damage every 18,000mu traveled, they need to burn additional resources to survive the 58,560 damage the Ship will take just trying to approach a Turret one fifth it's level. One low level Turret has rendered space invasions impossible.

And before you say "cover" totally prevents most of that, on average Earth and Mars is about 54.6 million kilometers apart. 1km = 3280.84ft = 546mu, there is an average of 29,811,600,000mu of space between these two celestial bodies even through they are classified as being next to each other in the same Solar System. The distances in space are quite large.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 24, 2017, 08:52:55 AM
I think of it as more 10,000 square miles is just the land grab and the physical base's building is a lot smaller.

Yanno, like how real world military bases are not build smack dab in the middle of a packed city but out in the middle of nowhere where they can adjudicate themselves having absolutely nothing else nearby that can be used to snoop on the base. It makes security easier when your base is surrounded by nothing but empty space so nobody is coming up on that unannounced. Or down in the middle of a heavy jungle that naturally hides the base from far-spying eyes and/or satellites. If nobody knows it's there, nobody'll know when the people guarding the base just up and murder people for getting to close and publicly chalk it up to "got lost and probably eaten by wild animals".

Now that depends what the purpose of the base is.
No it doesn't  :P Because everyone in dnd that has a base of operations is paranoid about this shit~
Word.

If I had gone any lower now I would have to deal with suggestions of just cramming bases inside their character's pockets or  someone wanting to use bases as ammo for weapons
I like the idea but honestly who cares? With a capped none-Epic Leadership Score of 25 you can only have four turrets for 8d12*4, that's 208 damage but totally useless if the target is within 300mu. Four 4th level Super Pilots can use Growth, Extra, Tank Mode, and Mighty x3 for 1d10+1d6+6+DexMod*3*4 for 180+ damage, if they have 16 Dex they deal more and they can most of the weapon addons as well. But unlike the turrets they can fire at anyone near by and you know, punch people in the face, split into dozens of clones, hell they could even use Maneuvers.
Turrets only take time and space to build, and are gained as a sub-option of a secondary ability of the support staff. Yes, they're not supposed to keep up with damage of other classes burning their actual class resources into damage.

The main deal is the 10,000 square miles through 300mu range. That's 8,799,700mu of covered range making it utterly impossible for anything to come near it. Like take that 4th level Turret vs a 20th level Ship Captain, assuming they waste their precious 6th level Arsenal Slot on Trombe they have 360mu/rnd without having to stop for energy recharging and it has 46 DR. A 4th level Turret deals a Rending 8d12, or 6 after DR. Ships have 100 energy, lose 10 per hit, and have no Energy Regen by default and the Captain them selves can only regenerate their Spirit once per fifty rounds. Assuming they get three full energy regens off they sustain 120 damage every 18,000mu traveled, they need to burn additional resources to survive the 58,560 damage the Ship will take just trying to approach a Turret one fifth it's level. One low level Turret has rendered space invasions impossible.
-Turrets auto-target closest, so that's why, instead of your space carrier, your vanguard should consist of either expendable mooks or the tough regenerating dude or high AC spec ahead to bait shots. A Real could spam Alert every round forever with Spirit Regen.
-Turrets auto-detect only works for bigger than mecha diminutive, meaning another possibility is for normal medium size pilots to get on foot, approach close enough by stealth, then take out the turrets when they're in their blind spots. Both supers and reals get feats for calling up mechas (or mecha-class weaponry at least) anywhere.
-Bring your own Support Staff and open up with a Super Weapon like the Colony Laser.
-It's a 20th level ship captain, why exactly are they trying to get through the enemy 4th level fortification? Just Heaven Sailing Dragon directly to your objective.

The turrets make it drastically harder for a single unit to raid at their leisure, but a party working together will still prevail.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 24, 2017, 01:05:29 PM
Turrets only take time and space to build, and are gained as a sub-option of a secondary ability of the support staff. Yes, they're not supposed to keep up with damage of other classes burning their actual class resources into damage.
That's kind of my point in that area. >.>
Throwing a Turret on smaller land really doesn't going to make them some kind of choose-all option, they are inferior in several ways to other Classes, except for range...

-Turrets auto-target closest, so that's why, instead of your space carrier, your vanguard should consist of either expendable mooks or the tough regenerating dude or high AC spec ahead to bait shots.
Doesn't matter. Like wise bringing up Alert is pointless since even Leadership can give you four of these and you still have four other, higher-level, Followers to choose supply bases and such. Heck in Bahamut's case Atomic Temple doubles this and we're talking about a single character here, not a civilization over a hundred thousand people strong currently worried if another fraction is going to attack them or not or how a planet support several tens of thousands of these even at the noted "too high" land consumption rate. And wondering why a 20th level Ship Captain is fighting a 4th level Turret is really just you missing the point: All you need is a single lv4 Torrent to successfully fend a 20th level character off.

Like totally ignoring the fact that Mech's don't move as fast due to Energy limitations, even at the rate of 360mu/rnd and needing one hundred rounds to kill a single "vanguard" agent, you need an army of two hundred and forty four of them just to attack a single low level base addition. It doesn't matter if you think 8d12*8 isn't a lot or think that's one to many followers, it's the fact that a Turret has nearly twenty five thousand rounds to attack oncoming enemies and as a result even a single one of them at the lowest level possible is enough to wipe characters that are too high for your games off the map.

In Osl speak, when combat starts against your supernatural mecha-wielding mundanes the Turrent drops 8,147 Time Stops except he's able to attack during them. For a guy that hates magic, you created a binary railroad of "must have teleport to win". Their range needs some serious reconsideration. Like you don't have this problem with archers in castles because the archers can only shoot at what they can see and Spot has penalty for distance, likewise the archers incur penalties to attack rolls the further out a target gets as well. Turrets ignore both of these with a massive covered area.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 24, 2017, 03:00:38 PM
If the answer to 'how does a level 20 character get to a level 4 character' is 'constantly spam perfect defences whilst sitting on another level 20 character's face' or 'major infiltration mission', the return on investment is probably too high.

And if we raise the bar a bit to 7th or 10th level, suddenly teleportation doesn't let you solve the range issue because they can have covering fields of fire, from the look of things.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 24, 2017, 03:27:28 PM
And if we raise the bar a bit to 7th or 10th level, suddenly teleportation doesn't let you solve the range issue because they can have covering fields of fire, from the look of things.
Yep, the turrets can overlap each other in certain circumstances, like it's unclear if they have to be in the exact center of the area, a 20kx20k area could have four turrets sitting 300mu away from each other allowing three of them to gun down anyone attacking the fourth which is the ideal way to build them on a two dimensional plane. But you also can move into three dimensional mapping where ten thousand square anything can be fit multiple times into a cubic measurement, such as mountainous terrain may be several thousand miles on foot but as the crow flies if could only be half of that, or you know. Asteroids.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 24, 2017, 03:29:08 PM
And by working off of "can hit anything within this area" rather than any actual range, you open the path for some very strange and problematic layouts.

A 10,000 square mile tunnel deathtrap, for one. Though actually establishing that would be worth it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on March 24, 2017, 04:12:14 PM
And by working off of "can hit anything within this area" rather than any actual range, you open the path for some very strange and problematic layouts.

A 10,000 square mile tunnel deathtrap, for one. Though actually establishing that would be worth it.

You mean like the Death Star?

Speaking of, I've been meaning to ask. Do spells such as Ray Deflection and Wind Wall have ANY effect at all on lasers and bullets? If not, which ones do, and how does one manage to get a sizeable protection to or immunity against Force?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 24, 2017, 04:28:14 PM
Speaking of, I've been meaning to ask. Do spells such as Ray Deflection and Wind Wall have ANY effect at all on lasers and bullets? If not, which ones do, and how does one manage to get a sizeable protection to or immunity against Force?
I could have sworn I told you about Forceward (https://dndtools.net/spells/spell-compendium--86/forceward--3795/) in the PMs.

Anyway, Ray Deflection (https://dndtools.net/spells/spell-compendium--86/ray-deflection--4063/) only prevents ranged touch attacks, use Friendly Fire (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/spells/exemplars-of-evil--64/friendly-fire--4965/index.html) instead to redirect their attacks back at them or to one of your nearby opponents instead.

Not sure on Wind Wall, but to be honest we have no "modern" support to begin with. Like we had to guess cell phones were a thing since nothing is mentioned, not even a simplistic ok to use post-PL2 from WotC-printed official content because it competes with his homebrew so we lose all kinds of already handled details. Like did you know you can email Scrolls in Modern? Single recipient limit of course, but imagine organizing and reading all of your scrolls on your Kindle app if you wanted. And we don't even know how to drive a car >.>
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 25, 2017, 09:17:44 AM
If the answer to 'how does a level 20 character get to a level 4 character' is 'constantly spam perfect defences whilst sitting on another level 20 character's face' or 'major infiltration mission', the return on investment is probably too high.

And if we raise the bar a bit to 7th or 10th level, suddenly teleportation doesn't let you solve the range issue because they can have covering fields of fire, from the look of things.
Thing is, if all you do is spam turrets, the other side spams factories and can just focus their mobile forces to zerg rush out your static defenses one at a time.

Also spirit regen+Alert can be done quite early, and a super robot can easily get damage to 1/4 early on with Defend+Support Defense.

Or you can just grab Defender/Predict and scale your defenses until the turrets can't hurt your anymore.

Speaking of, I've been meaning to ask. Do spells such as Ray Deflection and Wind Wall have ANY effect at all on lasers and bullets?
No.

If not, which ones do, and how does one manage to get a sizeable protection to or immunity against Force?
Get AC buffs and miss chances?


And if we raise the bar a bit to 7th or 10th level, suddenly teleportation doesn't let you solve the range issue because they can have covering fields of fire, from the look of things.
Yep, the turrets can overlap each other in certain circumstances, like it's unclear if they have to be in the exact center of the area, a 20kx20k area could have four turrets sitting 300mu away from each other allowing three of them to gun down anyone attacking the fourth which is the ideal way to build them on a two dimensional plane. But you also can move into three dimensional mapping where ten thousand square anything can be fit multiple times into a cubic measurement, such as mountainous terrain may be several thousand miles on foot but as the crow flies if could only be half of that, or you know. Asteroids.

A 5-feet-square of plain glass and a 5-feet square of rough rocks both count as 5-feet squares in D&D.

And it is one single continuous area, so no splitting over multiple objects.

And we don't even know how to drive a car

I'm pretty sure none of the players here knows how to drive a chariot either.

Stop trying to bring forgotten relics of bygone ages into play.  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 25, 2017, 11:30:18 AM
If the answer to 'how does a level 20 character get to a level 4 character' is 'constantly spam perfect defences whilst sitting on another level 20 character's face' or 'major infiltration mission', the return on investment is probably too high.

And if we raise the bar a bit to 7th or 10th level, suddenly teleportation doesn't let you solve the range issue because they can have covering fields of fire, from the look of things.
Thing is, if all you do is spam turrets, the other side spams factories and can just focus their mobile forces to zerg rush out your static defenses one at a time.

Also spirit regen+Alert can be done quite early, and a super robot can easily get damage to 1/4 early on with Defend+Support Defense.

I think the scale of up to 10,000 miles range has been missed. Even if you have a nice square area and it's only halfway from the edge, that's 8,500 MU of effective range. Zerg rushing even the most convenient case is a pretty dismal attempt. With less even areas, that's up to 175,700MU.

And this is 40 or so rounds of "I use alert!" and hoping there is nothing else in this base aside from one turret? Or that there only is the one turret?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 25, 2017, 12:24:29 PM
If the turret is not at the center of the base, it also means you can go around the perimeter and have an easier time getting into its blind spot.

Speaking of zerg, einst can just burrow below.

There's also the Guardian and Predict feat which means as long as you can endure a few hits, you soon become virtually immune to multiple turrets without need of any more actions.

Yes, there could be more enemies lurking in, but that's not a problem specific to the turrets. If anything, if there are turrets, it means there are no factories churning out reinforcements.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on March 25, 2017, 01:43:12 PM
While not taking a position in this, wouldn't factories be their own base and so not benefit from fortifications? They'd be more vulnerable than a base with turrets. The way it is currently set it seems you cannot make a fortified factory even if you spend two "base" abilities on a single base area (since all such areas can only support a single base).
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 25, 2017, 05:27:52 PM
I'm pretty sure none of the players here knows how to drive a chariot either.
Wanna bet? :smirk

If anything, if there are turrets, it means there are no factories churning out reinforcements.
You've never played an RTS have you?

Basic design strategy is you bury your primary outpost behind your defenses, and as you branch out you can start using more and more defensive measures until the area is secured then you simply rebuild those defensive protections into supply generators.

For example, a planetoid can only support six bases could be built in a more defensive design. You build four turrets space around the equator, and two factories at the north and south poles. Approaching from any direction still allows three turrets to fire making it damn near impossible for anything other than micro-infantry to attack and it produces two mechs per week to combat those.

And those will sit towards the outer ring of controller territory. Moving inwards, onto a moon-sized planetoid, 1,460 bases can be built and you technically only need two turrets to defend it anyway since one is enough to blow anything 20th level out of the water. But let's go ahead and allocate 10% of the space to defenses, then out of the remaining split half that to real, then out of the remaining near-quarter split that up into super-level. That moon produces 34,164 real robots, 9,855 super robots, 4,927 arcane robots, and 4,927 divine robots per year and from any given direction 73 turrets can fire at approaching targets. Round some digits for bunkers to store overstock as needed and there ya go. Of course a more styled zerger may just stick to one turret, because that's all that is needed, and build a single factory next to it while dashing across the known space as a land grab.

Population generators, you know where baby pilots come from, may sit even further in your defended zone. But as the need for 146 turret defenses reduces to roughly half that (I personally never scrap all of my defenses), they can simply move to that moon.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 25, 2017, 05:56:38 PM
If the turret is not at the center of the base, it also means you can go around the perimeter and have an easier time getting into its blind spot.

A feat that makes no sense.

How can I have a turret that is able to fire at 10,000 miles or more with the same accuracy as at effective point blank... and at the same time, because of positioning, have a minimum range in the other direction of 30' to 60' or something similarly ridiculous.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 26, 2017, 02:38:36 AM
While not taking a position in this, wouldn't factories be their own base and so not benefit from fortifications? They'd be more vulnerable than a base with turrets. The way it is currently set it seems you cannot make a fortified factory even if you spend two "base" abilities on a single base area (since all such areas can only support a single base).

That is correct. That's why you want to set up factories either hidden or inside a perimeter of fortifications and/or organize patrols with the factory's production.

But if all you spam is fortifications, you're completely giving up the ability to project power.

If the turret is not at the center of the base, it also means you can go around the perimeter and have an easier time getting into its blind spot.

A feat that makes no sense.

How can I have a turret that is able to fire at 10,000 miles or more with the same accuracy as at effective point blank... and at the same time, because of positioning, have a minimum range in the other direction of 30' to 60' or something similarly ridiculous.

It's called hyper specialization. The turret is carefully calibrated for firing at certain set of angles and distances from its position, and cannot aim at all at anything outside its parameters.

Do notice that this means turrets from one base cannot fire into another base's area, and even a 20th level support staff can only cram 20 turrets to support each other assuming they don't build anything else in that fortification.

Also the reason why you can't just rip it off and carry around. Would only render useless all the careful calibrations and now it can't hit anything at all.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on March 26, 2017, 04:09:19 AM
So is there anything is your SRW stuff for hacking yet?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 26, 2017, 05:55:16 AM
Internet Explorer (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16296.0) has some maneuvers that are kinda hackish. I don't plan to offer more if any support because hacking directly takes away from the focus of giant robot combat.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on March 26, 2017, 07:22:43 AM
Well IE is feel more like DDoSing but I suppose I get ya point. I wanna make a character for that IE school. Too many things I want to do, not enough high-powered, futuristic, homebrew acceptable games about haha.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 26, 2017, 10:15:12 AM
If the turret is not at the center of the base, it also means you can go around the perimeter and have an easier time getting into its blind spot.

A feat that makes no sense.

How can I have a turret that is able to fire at 10,000 miles or more with the same accuracy as at effective point blank... and at the same time, because of positioning, have a minimum range in the other direction of 30' to 60' or something similarly ridiculous.

It's called hyper specialization. The turret is carefully calibrated for firing at certain set of angles and distances from its position, and cannot aim at all at anything outside its parameters.

Do notice that this means turrets from one base cannot fire into another base's area, and even a 20th level support staff can only cram 20 turrets to support each other assuming they don't build anything else in that fortification.

Also the reason why you can't just rip it off and carry around. Would only render useless all the careful calibrations and now it can't hit anything at all.

That's just overcomplicating it.

10 mile range increments (with or without any accuracy dropoffs) covers you from the centre to the edge of an average-sized base and without strangely shaped bases getting far better range on their turrets. Still useless picked up because you just tore it away from any controls or power source.

I don't see how it matters too much if it could fire into another base: acquiring contiguous plots of 10,000 square miles and establishing a network of bases doesn't seem terribly easy. Less so when right next to an enemy you might want to shoot: they're going to need to be pretty dim to not notice the land acquisition and 24 hour turret construction happening conveniently within range.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 26, 2017, 08:03:31 PM
That's just overcomplicating it.

10 mile range increments (with or without any accuracy dropoffs) covers you from the centre to the edge of an average-sized base and without strangely shaped bases getting far better range on their turrets. Still useless picked up because you just tore it away from any controls or power source.

I don't see how it matters too much if it could fire into another base: acquiring contiguous plots of 10,000 square miles and establishing a network of bases doesn't seem terribly easy. Less so when right next to an enemy you might want to shoot: they're going to need to be pretty dim to not notice the land acquisition and 24 hour turret construction happening conveniently within range.

It matters because it's the difference between getting focus fired by ~10 turrets or ~100 turrets when you go to assault enemy land.

It is also a lot more complicated. Whereas with the hyperspecialized turrets you just need to determine the base's area and you automatically know where any and all turrets can fire, all-range turrets means an exponentially more complicated problem where you need to individually calculate each turret's firing range, and then rewards fortifications with lots of weird pointy extensions to maximize the area they can shoot at.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastion_fort)
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 26, 2017, 09:14:56 PM
That's just overcomplicating it.

10 mile range increments (with or without any accuracy dropoffs) covers you from the centre to the edge of an average-sized base and without strangely shaped bases getting far better range on their turrets. Still useless picked up because you just tore it away from any controls or power source.

I don't see how it matters too much if it could fire into another base: acquiring contiguous plots of 10,000 square miles and establishing a network of bases doesn't seem terribly easy. Less so when right next to an enemy you might want to shoot: they're going to need to be pretty dim to not notice the land acquisition and 24 hour turret construction happening conveniently within range.

It matters because it's the difference between getting focus fired by ~10 turrets or ~100 turrets when you go to assault enemy land.

I don't see how the number of turrets hitting you can suddenly go up by an entire order of magnitude by introducing actual range mechanics. For that to be the case, the range would have to be set incredibly high and all the turrets focused along one particular path of entry... which actually provides a much better tactical option for breaking through the lines of turrets, since this means that in the multiple overlapping 10,000 square mile areas, there's got to be huge area with no coverage at all (the Maginot Line comes to mind). Rather than the "can arbitrarily shoot anywhere in this area" option of being able, at best, to avoid being shot by one of them.

And unless the areas are for no valid reason being arranged so that the majority of the area is far away from the front lines but they have a single tendril of land to stick turrets on, because rules can't really be made to prevent such blatantly idiotic DMing, there's not really an issue. Multiple bases are already requiring you to control land equal to entire European countries. <_<

Quote
It is also a lot more complicated. Whereas with the hyperspecialized turrets you just need to determine the base's area and you automatically know where any and all turrets can fire, all-range turrets means an exponentially more complicated problem where you need to individually calculate each turret's firing range, and then rewards fortifications with lots of weird pointy extensions to maximize the area they can shoot at.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastion_fort)

It means getting a compass, or virtual equivalent, which is a lot less complicated than working out the range and spell effects for a mid-level wizard's spells given that they keep moving and the land, presumably, does not. And actually leaves room for cover or inconvenient mountains to have a purpose.

Rewarding fortification design that actually resembles some sort of fortification, rather than having your turrets be as unsupported as possible, does not look like a bad thing.

What we have right now isn't a turret, it's the world's worst targeting laser for some really bad orbital cannons.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 26, 2017, 09:36:45 PM
That's just overcomplicating it.

10 mile range increments (with or without any accuracy dropoffs) covers you from the centre to the edge of an average-sized base and without strangely shaped bases getting far better range on their turrets. Still useless picked up because you just tore it away from any controls or power source.

I don't see how it matters too much if it could fire into another base: acquiring contiguous plots of 10,000 square miles and establishing a network of bases doesn't seem terribly easy. Less so when right next to an enemy you might want to shoot: they're going to need to be pretty dim to not notice the land acquisition and 24 hour turret construction happening conveniently within range.

It matters because it's the difference between getting focus fired by ~10 turrets or ~100 turrets when you go to assault enemy land.

I don't see how the number of turrets hitting you can suddenly go up by an entire order of magnitude by introducing actual range mechanics. For that to be the case, the range would have to be set incredibly high and all the turrets focused along one particular path of entry... which actually provides a much better tactical option for breaking through the lines of turrets, since this means that in the multiple overlapping 10,000 square mile areas, there's got to be huge area with no coverage at all (the Maginot Line comes to mind). Rather than the "can arbitrarily shoot anywhere in this area" option of being able, at best, to avoid being shot by one of them.

And unless the areas are for no valid reason being arranged so that the majority of the area is far away from the front lines but they have a single tendril of land to stick turrets on, because rules can't really be made to prevent such blatantly idiotic DMing, there's not really an issue. Multiple bases are already requiring you to control land equal to entire European countries. <_<
You mean like being USA/China/Russia/India/Brasil/Australia? Or the part where most European countries have a defensive alliance and they would shoot anyone trying to invade their neighbours? Or that we're talking about a futuristic setting where whole planets may be under a single government plus fortified moons and big asteroids and whatnot?

The Maginot line is remembered as one of the most epic failures of fortification design. The country that built it was defeated and conquered faster than it had ever been before. It's as far away from "a much better tactical option" as you could possibly go as far as fortifications with big guns go. 


Quote
It is also a lot more complicated. Whereas with the hyperspecialized turrets you just need to determine the base's area and you automatically know where any and all turrets can fire, all-range turrets means an exponentially more complicated problem where you need to individually calculate each turret's firing range, and then rewards fortifications with lots of weird pointy extensions to maximize the area they can shoot at.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastion_fort)

It means getting a compass, or virtual equivalent, which is a lot less complicated than working out the range and spell effects for a mid-level wizard's spells given that they keep moving and the land, presumably, does not. And actually leaves room for cover or inconvenient mountains to have a purpose.

Rewarding fortification design that actually resembles some sort of fortification, rather than having your turrets be as unsupported as possible, does not look like a bad thing.

What we have right now isn't a turret, it's the world's worst targeting laser for some really bad orbital cannons.

There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 26, 2017, 10:09:45 PM
That's just overcomplicating it.

10 mile range increments (with or without any accuracy dropoffs) covers you from the centre to the edge of an average-sized base and without strangely shaped bases getting far better range on their turrets. Still useless picked up because you just tore it away from any controls or power source.

I don't see how it matters too much if it could fire into another base: acquiring contiguous plots of 10,000 square miles and establishing a network of bases doesn't seem terribly easy. Less so when right next to an enemy you might want to shoot: they're going to need to be pretty dim to not notice the land acquisition and 24 hour turret construction happening conveniently within range.

It matters because it's the difference between getting focus fired by ~10 turrets or ~100 turrets when you go to assault enemy land.

I don't see how the number of turrets hitting you can suddenly go up by an entire order of magnitude by introducing actual range mechanics. For that to be the case, the range would have to be set incredibly high and all the turrets focused along one particular path of entry... which actually provides a much better tactical option for breaking through the lines of turrets, since this means that in the multiple overlapping 10,000 square mile areas, there's got to be huge area with no coverage at all (the Maginot Line comes to mind). Rather than the "can arbitrarily shoot anywhere in this area" option of being able, at best, to avoid being shot by one of them.

And unless the areas are for no valid reason being arranged so that the majority of the area is far away from the front lines but they have a single tendril of land to stick turrets on, because rules can't really be made to prevent such blatantly idiotic DMing, there's not really an issue. Multiple bases are already requiring you to control land equal to entire European countries. <_<
You mean like being USA/China/Russia/India/Brasil/Australia? Or the part where most European countries have a defensive alliance and they would shoot anyone trying to invade their neighbours? Or that we're talking about a futuristic setting where whole planets may be under a single government plus fortified moons and big asteroids and whatnot?

The Maginot line is remembered as one of the most epic failures of fortification design. The country that built it was defeated and conquered faster than it had ever been before. It's as far away from "a much better tactical option" as you could possibly go as far as fortifications with big guns go. 

I recall suggesting a range that would give the turrets an area they can fire in that would, in general, only reach halfway through an adjacent base... if they were right on the border. By modern standards, it's remarkably impressive for an effective projectile--which would manage about a 30 mile range at best once an hour. You're arguing based on being able to overlap the turrets from multiple bases to provide a vast amount of cover to one area.

Which would lead straight to the Maginot Line. That's a tactical opportunity for those trying to breech the defences! The current rules make all avenues of attack identical and all concept of a tactical advance beyond "negate it entirely" meaningless the instant there's two guns that can perfectly cover each other.

But sure, if you want to have a 1,000 mile range increment, you'd have problems.


Quote
Quote
It is also a lot more complicated. Whereas with the hyperspecialized turrets you just need to determine the base's area and you automatically know where any and all turrets can fire, all-range turrets means an exponentially more complicated problem where you need to individually calculate each turret's firing range, and then rewards fortifications with lots of weird pointy extensions to maximize the area they can shoot at.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastion_fort)

It means getting a compass, or virtual equivalent, which is a lot less complicated than working out the range and spell effects for a mid-level wizard's spells given that they keep moving and the land, presumably, does not. And actually leaves room for cover or inconvenient mountains to have a purpose.

Rewarding fortification design that actually resembles some sort of fortification, rather than having your turrets be as unsupported as possible, does not look like a bad thing.

What we have right now isn't a turret, it's the world's worst targeting laser for some really bad orbital cannons.

There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.
[/quote]

Then you should actually include that in the ability description, as they don't seem to operate caring about LoS or LoE at all due to the auto-detecting anything in the area and ignoring all miss chances (nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)

Slightly more complicated if you're actually bothering to plan out the base in any way at all. It's not exponentially more complicated. It's not even more complicated than working out where to put walls to give defensive bonuses at certain levels, or how much you can surround with walls.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on March 26, 2017, 10:39:06 PM
Question on those towers; how high are they? They are treated as colossal but they have a 30x30mu base and towers rarely qualify as towers when they are shaped like a cube.
I'm wondering how high the surface to build upon would have to be above sea level to get all of the the horizon in sight to be within its firing range on an Earth-like planet.
Though it may be that those towers can shoot stuff beyond the horizon, the shots following the curvature of the planet and so on.
Not that I'm planning to have one done. Just wondering.

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(nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)
Unless you're small enough.
Maybe there are jammers that can help, though maybe not yet. Anyway, bases are usually captured by armies and armies are normally hard to hide.
You can also sneak to a tower using one of the most basic espionage tactics; disguises. It is not because it can detect you that it cannot be fooled into thinking you are a neutral/allied unit. There is even a lvl 2 arsenal accessory to disguise your mecha.
Unless it somehow automatically knows what is an enemy and what isn't. Which would be weird.
That difference is likely programmed to it in a way similar to how some trap spells work.
In game that is also probably something that can be tempered with. Disable Device, so on and so forth. What's its Spot modifier to defeat a disguise? Without one it more or less automatically fails against a mere level 1 rogue waltzing to it with an electrician box checking in for "maintenance".
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 26, 2017, 10:51:23 PM
Quote
(nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)
Unless you're small enough.
Maybe there are jammers that can help, though maybe not yet. Anyway, bases are usually captured by armies and armies are normally hard to hide.
You can also sneak to a tower using one of the most basic espionage tactics; disguises. It is not because it can detect you that it cannot be fooled into thinking you are a neutral/allied unit. There is even a lvl 2 arsenal accessory to disguise your mecha.
Unless it somehow automatically knows what is an enemy and what isn't. Which would be weird.
That difference is likely programmed to it in a way similar to how some trap spells work.
In game that is also probably something that can be tempered with. Disable Device, so on and so forth. What's its Spot modifier to defeat a disguise? Without one it more or less automatically fails against a mere level 1 rogue waltzing to it with an electrician box checking in for "maintenance".

As of right now, it's got a perfect friend-or-foe thing going on and ignores the actual stealth skills and invisibility entirely. I'm pretty sure there's more I'm missing, but "it can be defeated by not being inside a mecha" doesn't seem like a great reason to just have it automatically defeat all other methods of sneaking by.

I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one giant robot that could be stealthy. :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 26, 2017, 11:01:51 PM
I recall suggesting a range that would give the turrets an area they can fire in that would, in general, only reach halfway through an adjacent base... if they were right on the border. By modern standards, it's remarkably impressive for an effective projectile--which would manage about a 30 mile range at best once an hour. You're arguing based on being able to overlap the turrets from multiple bases to provide a vast amount of cover to one area.

Which would lead straight to the Maginot Line. That's a tactical opportunity for those trying to breech the defences! The current rules make all avenues of attack identical and all concept of a tactical advance beyond "negate it entirely" meaningless the instant there's two guns that can perfectly cover each other.

But sure, if you want to have a 1,000 mile range increment, you'd have problems.
Indeed, the idea is to keep it simple, having turrets that actually pose a threat that isn't easily ignorable without turning SRW d20 into siege warfare simulator.


Quote
There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.

Then you should actually include that in the ability description, as they don't seem to operate caring about LoS or LoE at all due to the auto-detecting anything in the area and ignoring all miss chances (nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)

Slightly more complicated if you're actually bothering to plan out the base in any way at all. It's not exponentially more complicated. It's not even more complicated than working out where to put walls to give defensive bonuses at certain levels, or how much you can surround with walls.

If you cast Scry to find the position of someone behind a wall and cast True Strike, can you hit them behind the wall? I believe you can't.

Speaking of which, the turrets are objects, so they also block line of effect. So mechas that aren't too big can indeed take cover on their dead zones from other turrets. There's your tactical advance.

Super anti-stealth because turrets are immobile objects and thus can't take feats or items or whatnot and there's just too many stealth abilities around.

Also you were previously claiming that the current turret range is overcomplicating it. Yet you now admit your proposed system demands extra time and effort for drawing circles. You just admitted your system is the one that's actually more complicated.

Question on those towers; how high are they? They are treated as colossal but they have a 30x30mu base and towers rarely qualify as towers when they are shaped like a cube.
I'm wondering how high the surface to build upon would have to be above sea level to get all of the the horizon in sight to be within its firing range on an Earth-like planet.
Though it may be that those towers can shoot stuff beyond the horizon, the shots following the curvature of the planet and so on.
Not that I'm planning to have one done. Just wondering.
Advanced interceptor turret technology is most efficient with 30 mu tall cubic shapes.

Just like the most optimal shape for futuristic warmachines is roughly humanoid. :p

Quote
(nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)
Unless you're small enough.
Maybe there are jammers that can help, though maybe not yet. Anyway, bases are usually captured by armies and armies are normally hard to hide.
You can also sneak to a tower using one of the most basic espionage tactics; disguises. It is not because it can detect you that it cannot be fooled into thinking you are a neutral/allied unit. There is even a lvl 2 arsenal accessory to disguise your mecha.
Unless it somehow automatically knows what is an enemy and what isn't. Which would be weird.
That difference is likely programmed to it in a way similar to how some trap spells work.
In game that is also probably something that can be tempered with. Disable Device, so on and so forth. What's its Spot modifier to defeat a disguise? Without one it more or less automatically fails against a mere level 1 rogue waltzing to it with an electrician box checking in for "maintenance".

Hmm, good point. Need something to distinguish friend from foe. Added that each turret has a database of not-enemies and anything that's big enough for it to detect qualifies as enemy unless in the database. Sees through disguises, but also anyone can change the turret's database as a fullround action while adjacent, so if you get close enough, you can turn the turret on the base's defenders. The level 1 rogue could pull it off if you don't have conventional guards close by.

I'll probably go around making the jammer arsenals and super robot undetectable work against it too.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 26, 2017, 11:12:24 PM
I recall suggesting a range that would give the turrets an area they can fire in that would, in general, only reach halfway through an adjacent base... if they were right on the border. By modern standards, it's remarkably impressive for an effective projectile--which would manage about a 30 mile range at best once an hour. You're arguing based on being able to overlap the turrets from multiple bases to provide a vast amount of cover to one area.

Which would lead straight to the Maginot Line. That's a tactical opportunity for those trying to breech the defences! The current rules make all avenues of attack identical and all concept of a tactical advance beyond "negate it entirely" meaningless the instant there's two guns that can perfectly cover each other.

But sure, if you want to have a 1,000 mile range increment, you'd have problems.
Indeed, the idea is to keep it simple, having turrets that actually pose a threat that isn't easily ignorable without turning SRW d20 into siege warfare simulator.

But by your own statements, they're easily ignorable provided you have the precise abilities that work against being shot repeatedly by the same thing. Or teleport past. If you don't. they're an impassable obstacle that will shred anyone trying to get close. Siege warfare or reasonable infiltration is better than a solution of "negate it or go on foot over a minimum of 50 miles".

Quote
Quote
There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.

Then you should actually include that in the ability description, as they don't seem to operate caring about LoS or LoE at all due to the auto-detecting anything in the area and ignoring all miss chances (nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)

Slightly more complicated if you're actually bothering to plan out the base in any way at all. It's not exponentially more complicated. It's not even more complicated than working out where to put walls to give defensive bonuses at certain levels, or how much you can surround with walls.

If you cast Scry to find the position of someone behind a wall and cast True Strike, can you hit them behind the wall? I believe you can't.

Speaking of which, the turrets are objects, so they also block line of effect. So mechas that aren't too big can indeed take cover on their dead zones from other turrets. There's your tactical advance.

Super anti-stealth because turrets are immobile objects and thus can't take feats or items or whatnot and there's just too many stealth abilities around.

Also you were previously claiming that the current turret range is overcomplicating it. Yet you now admit your proposed system demands extra time and effort for drawing circles. You just admitted your system is the one that's actually more complicated.

Well, the turrets are ranged weapons that don't obey normal ranged rules and automatically ignore being hidden (lovely, a level 4 turret can detect a level 20 with god knows how many points in move silently and hide) and instantly detect things that they don't have LoE to, so why would I ever assume that LoE applies to their own firing? But now that LoE does apply to their ability to fire things, they're operating on special rules and I still have to draw lines all over the map to work out where each turret can't fire anyway.

So just sticking to the normal ranged rules and giving them a spot score/see invisibility is simpler after all. It's not like there aren't already modifiers for different sizes... <_<
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 26, 2017, 11:34:38 PM
I recall suggesting a range that would give the turrets an area they can fire in that would, in general, only reach halfway through an adjacent base... if they were right on the border. By modern standards, it's remarkably impressive for an effective projectile--which would manage about a 30 mile range at best once an hour. You're arguing based on being able to overlap the turrets from multiple bases to provide a vast amount of cover to one area.

Which would lead straight to the Maginot Line. That's a tactical opportunity for those trying to breech the defences! The current rules make all avenues of attack identical and all concept of a tactical advance beyond "negate it entirely" meaningless the instant there's two guns that can perfectly cover each other.

But sure, if you want to have a 1,000 mile range increment, you'd have problems.
Indeed, the idea is to keep it simple, having turrets that actually pose a threat that isn't easily ignorable without turning SRW d20 into siege warfare simulator.

But by your own statements, they're easily ignorable provided you have the precise abilities that work against being shot repeatedly by the same thing. Or teleport past. If you don't. they're an impassable obstacle that will shred anyone trying to get close. Siege warfare or reasonable infiltration is better than a solution of "negate it or go on foot over a minimum of 50 miles".

Infiltration is still possible with the current system. Heck, it'll be more once I finish updating the arsenal anti-radars.

Anyway yes, in mecha shows you don't take conquer fortifications by carefully calculating vectors of advance, you charge in guns blazing and either are tough/dodgy/numerous enough to survive the turrets or you end a pile of scrap (or, again, get some super weapon to nuke it from even further range, Ace Pilot has Ambush to snipe stuff at unlimited range starting at 11th level and everything).

Quote
Quote
There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.

Then you should actually include that in the ability description, as they don't seem to operate caring about LoS or LoE at all due to the auto-detecting anything in the area and ignoring all miss chances (nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)

Slightly more complicated if you're actually bothering to plan out the base in any way at all. It's not exponentially more complicated. It's not even more complicated than working out where to put walls to give defensive bonuses at certain levels, or how much you can surround with walls.

If you cast Scry to find the position of someone behind a wall and cast True Strike, can you hit them behind the wall? I believe you can't.

Speaking of which, the turrets are objects, so they also block line of effect. So mechas that aren't too big can indeed take cover on their dead zones from other turrets. There's your tactical advance.

Super anti-stealth because turrets are immobile objects and thus can't take feats or items or whatnot and there's just too many stealth abilities around.

Also you were previously claiming that the current turret range is overcomplicating it. Yet you now admit your proposed system demands extra time and effort for drawing circles. You just admitted your system is the one that's actually more complicated.

Well, the turrets are ranged weapons that don't obey normal ranged rules and automatically ignore being hidden (lovely, a level 4 turret can detect a level 20 with god knows how many points in move silently and hide) and instantly detect things that they don't have LoE to, so why would I ever assume that LoE applies to their own firing? But now that LoE does apply to their ability to fire things, they're operating on special rules and I still have to draw lines all over the map to work out where each turret can't fire anyway.

So just sticking to the normal ranged rules and giving them a spot score/see invisibility is simpler after all. It's not like there aren't already modifiers for different sizes... <_<
My system:
1-Are they inside the base area?
2-Is there a valid LoE for each turret?
3-DAKKADAKKADAKKA!

Your system:
1-Check if they're in range of the turrets.
2-Still need to check LoE for each turret.
3-Roll listen for the turrets.
4-Roll spot  against hide for each turret.
5-Roll spot against disguise for each turret.
6-DAKKADAKKADAKKA!

That's literally double the calculations involded. Assuming there's the same number of turrets in each scenario. But while one system caps at 20 turrets at 20th level, the other system can have hundreds of turrets in range if you cheese the areas of the bases.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 26, 2017, 11:57:53 PM
I recall suggesting a range that would give the turrets an area they can fire in that would, in general, only reach halfway through an adjacent base... if they were right on the border. By modern standards, it's remarkably impressive for an effective projectile--which would manage about a 30 mile range at best once an hour. You're arguing based on being able to overlap the turrets from multiple bases to provide a vast amount of cover to one area.

Which would lead straight to the Maginot Line. That's a tactical opportunity for those trying to breech the defences! The current rules make all avenues of attack identical and all concept of a tactical advance beyond "negate it entirely" meaningless the instant there's two guns that can perfectly cover each other.

But sure, if you want to have a 1,000 mile range increment, you'd have problems.
Indeed, the idea is to keep it simple, having turrets that actually pose a threat that isn't easily ignorable without turning SRW d20 into siege warfare simulator.

But by your own statements, they're easily ignorable provided you have the precise abilities that work against being shot repeatedly by the same thing. Or teleport past. If you don't. they're an impassable obstacle that will shred anyone trying to get close. Siege warfare or reasonable infiltration is better than a solution of "negate it or go on foot over a minimum of 50 miles".

Infiltration is still possible with the current system. Heck, it'll be more once I finish updating the arsenal anti-radars.

Anyway yes, in mecha shows you don't take conquer fortifications by carefully calculating vectors of advance, you charge in guns blazing and either are tough/dodgy/numerous enough to survive the turrets or you end a pile of scrap (or, again, get some super weapon to nuke it from even further range, Ace Pilot has Ambush to snipe stuff at unlimited range starting at 11th level and everything).

Most of the genre doesn't totally abandon common sense and adopt "the best idea is to run at the strongest point". Some shows do, but that isn't enough to remove any concept of tactics entirely.

Quote
Quote
Quote
There appears to be some confusion here. Interceptor turrets don't get to ignore line of effect. They can auto-detect targets, but if there's a mountain or some other big cover  between them shots will still be blocked.

Anyway yes, needing to draw a bunch of extra circles is considerably more complicated than not needing to draw any extra circles at all.

Then you should actually include that in the ability description, as they don't seem to operate caring about LoS or LoE at all due to the auto-detecting anything in the area and ignoring all miss chances (nice that this one ability > every stealth ability, really)

Slightly more complicated if you're actually bothering to plan out the base in any way at all. It's not exponentially more complicated. It's not even more complicated than working out where to put walls to give defensive bonuses at certain levels, or how much you can surround with walls.

If you cast Scry to find the position of someone behind a wall and cast True Strike, can you hit them behind the wall? I believe you can't.

Speaking of which, the turrets are objects, so they also block line of effect. So mechas that aren't too big can indeed take cover on their dead zones from other turrets. There's your tactical advance.

Super anti-stealth because turrets are immobile objects and thus can't take feats or items or whatnot and there's just too many stealth abilities around.

Also you were previously claiming that the current turret range is overcomplicating it. Yet you now admit your proposed system demands extra time and effort for drawing circles. You just admitted your system is the one that's actually more complicated.

Well, the turrets are ranged weapons that don't obey normal ranged rules and automatically ignore being hidden (lovely, a level 4 turret can detect a level 20 with god knows how many points in move silently and hide) and instantly detect things that they don't have LoE to, so why would I ever assume that LoE applies to their own firing? But now that LoE does apply to their ability to fire things, they're operating on special rules and I still have to draw lines all over the map to work out where each turret can't fire anyway.

So just sticking to the normal ranged rules and giving them a spot score/see invisibility is simpler after all. It's not like there aren't already modifiers for different sizes... <_<
My system:
1-Are they inside the base area?
2-Is there a valid LoE for each turret?
3-DAKKADAKKADAKKA!

Your system:
1-Check if they're in range of the turrets.
2-Still need to check LoE for each turret.
3-Roll listen for the turrets.
4-Roll spot  against hide for each turret.
5-Roll spot against disguise for each turret.
6-DAKKADAKKADAKKA!

That's literally double the calculations involded. Assuming there's the same number of turrets in each scenario. But while one system caps at 20 turrets at 20th level, the other system can have hundreds of turrets in range if you cheese the areas of the bases.
[/quote]

Only if you're calculating it on the spot. If you worked it out in advance, which I would seriously hope you WOULD for both situations given that we're going from 30' squares to plotting at least 100 miles a side, then the steps are more like:

0) Roll disguise once if you can pretend to be the enemy.
1) Are they inside any targeted area (you need to compare for both systems anyway because of LoE, and having limited range actually makes it simpler with more varied terrain)
1A) Roll spot for turrets (group/individually, however) with turrets not auto-trumping anything but 1-point cheap mecha defences.
2) Fire

The only addition are any spot checks. Spot checks that mean that if you for some reason have a level 20 base, you can't defeat its defences as first level characters by being unarmoured and you can have a deadly boss lair you can't even get close to from the start. Modifiers work both ways.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 27, 2017, 01:48:08 AM
Most of the genre doesn't totally abandon common sense and adopt "the best idea is to run at the strongest point". Some shows do, but that isn't enough to remove any concept of tactics entirely.
Examples? Because even Gundam pilots often charge straight ahead when it comes to assaulting enemy fortresses.

McGillis just got killed running at the strongest point, true, but only when the other named dude with a mecha specifically built to counter him intercepted.

Only if you're calculating it on the spot. If you worked it out in advance, which I would seriously hope you WOULD for both situations given that we're going from 30' squares to plotting at least 100 miles a side, then the steps are more like:

0) Roll disguise once if you can pretend to be the enemy.
1) Are they inside any targeted area (you need to compare for both systems anyway because of LoE, and having limited range actually makes it simpler with more varied terrain)
1A) Roll spot for turrets (group/individually, however) with turrets not auto-trumping anything but 1-point cheap mecha defences.
2) Fire

The only addition are any spot checks. Spot checks that mean that if you for some reason have a level 20 base, you can't defeat its defences as first level characters by being unarmoured and you can have a deadly boss lair you can't even get close to from the start. Modifiers work both ways.
That reminds me, with your system you also need to check for LoS. So just drop some fog or wait for a foggy day, add a Silence spell and done. Could be dragging a piece of cardboard. Could be illusions. I don't want to have to deal with illusions bullshit or cheap parlor tricks.

Of course if you build nothing but turrets and leave zero guards, you deserve to be defeated by the unarmoured 1st level dudes.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 27, 2017, 02:11:57 AM
Looks like the turret discussion has really taken off, and that's a pun because the curving x-ray bullets exceed mach 142.

Anyway, is Ayrk every going to speak?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 27, 2017, 10:21:04 AM
Most of the genre doesn't totally abandon common sense and adopt "the best idea is to run at the strongest point". Some shows do, but that isn't enough to remove any concept of tactics entirely.
Examples? Because even Gundam pilots often charge straight ahead when it comes to assaulting enemy fortresses.

McGillis just got killed running at the strongest point, true, but only when the other named dude with a mecha specifically built to counter him intercepted.

Code Geass? And in a way, pretty much the finale of Gunbuster, given the plan there wasn't 'smash the defences to pieces' but 'get inside for a few seconds'.

Quote
Only if you're calculating it on the spot. If you worked it out in advance, which I would seriously hope you WOULD for both situations given that we're going from 30' squares to plotting at least 100 miles a side, then the steps are more like:

0) Roll disguise once if you can pretend to be the enemy.
1) Are they inside any targeted area (you need to compare for both systems anyway because of LoE, and having limited range actually makes it simpler with more varied terrain)
1A) Roll spot for turrets (group/individually, however) with turrets not auto-trumping anything but 1-point cheap mecha defences.
2) Fire

The only addition are any spot checks. Spot checks that mean that if you for some reason have a level 20 base, you can't defeat its defences as first level characters by being unarmoured and you can have a deadly boss lair you can't even get close to from the start. Modifiers work both ways.
That reminds me, with your system you also need to check for LoS. So just drop some fog or wait for a foggy day, add a Silence spell and done. Could be dragging a piece of cardboard. Could be illusions. I don't want to have to deal with illusions bullshit or cheap parlor tricks.

Of course if you build nothing but turrets and leave zero guards, you deserve to be defeated by the unarmoured 1st level dudes.

[/quote]

You're talking about a scale of a hundred miles a side. No spell is going to cover all of that area and the natural weather isn't likely to be a blanket of fog so problematic. Even Control Weather can't do more than create a tiny area of cover (assuming you get the casting done before being shot).

The cheap parlour tricks still work, though. I just need to have a fake illusion in front of me.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 27, 2017, 10:57:52 AM
Code Geass? And in a way, pretty much the finale of Gunbuster, given the plan there wasn't 'smash the defences to pieces' but 'get inside for a few seconds'.
Lelouch was also purposely expending his troops for the coming military disarmament so really Code Geass doesn't count anyway.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on March 29, 2017, 10:34:35 PM
Anyway, is Ayrk every going to speak?
Not until you:
-Stop crippling your character by equipping them with horse shoes which block both your spellcasting and piloting. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11952.msg261168#msg261168) Also this isn't a brony campaign.
-Further stop crippling your character by taking your cohort's wealth in a ring (whose exact source would be appreciated BTW) which as pointed out multiple times in OOC will make them rebel against you.
-Stop having [Classified] items in your character sheet.
-Stop spamming the srw subforums with your 40k/bioshock homebrew. You already have your own thread for that on the normal homebrew forums. You can request your own subforum.

None of the above are up for negotiation as I simply don't have the time for it. Further derailing means I'm kicking you out of my campaigns.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on March 30, 2017, 02:21:44 AM
Clicked your link, seems we were discussion how the shoes don't block spellcasting and I was about to reply how the shoes don't actually turn you into a Nightmare, or use Alternate Form or Polymorph rules, or even say you lose your Racial Features and Dragons already have an exception since their technically bipedal and unable to grasp weapons (which is also why the mech wields the vistburn) but it appears things got buried. I'm not sure why a sentient mech with a copy of the pilot's brain needs controls either but hey w/e, easy enough fix when I get around to it.

Metamagic Storm has been on Bahamut's sheet since level 12 and Searing Spell was either there then to or adjusted when lv13 was gained. Likewise, it's pretty obvious given the superscript notation and the fact I literally pointed out to you in PMs back when I was thinking of using a dozen Steel Knifes for the fire damage and your only comment was it gets 1/2 str scale. And when I was writing the historic notes that we were discussing in PMs, certain things were getting a new flavor spin. As everyone can see on Saber's sheet, where the same pseudo-tag wraps knowledge for players but not characters, and the damage section where the Searing Spell section of that damage that bypasses fire immunity got the cool name of "darkfire". With the magical weave being noted as deteriorating some of the fluff of the location isn't the most appropriate. Something like Grants Tempest sounded cooler but I haven't really dug into the wiki all that much and you started using PH's spells in Arcane Pilot so idk is that name would work anyway. But eh it's all fluff, the mechanics are exactly the same ones that have been in use for years nor can I really expect anyone to consider them secretive.

Likewise in PMs you were expressly told what Saber was going to be for, and how her Prestige Bard level was meant to create a more open spell resource and you told me that plan was fine. You were even expressly asked about and OK'ed that Bahamut was going to cast Forceward & Greater Blink to pass to his Familiar using Share Spells followed by their mech's channeling them up thus she could pilot a fully buffed mech. And you OK'ed all of this and even found the idea interesting and wanted to see how it'd go. The Ring of Theurgy out of Complete Arcane on page 145 (or so) is how the spells were getting passed back and forth which became highly important when you illogically nerfed mechs to object-only because they could no longer be the target of several buffs and I subsequently patched around it following your rule changes as I become aware of them. And as noted in the OOC thread, both characters make active use of it and they both paid for it. Saber can cast Elation into it and Bahamut can pull it out using any 2nd level Slot, then he can cast spontaneously cast any Spell he knows into it and Saber can pull it out without having to prepare it. All though I think she has to directly leave a slot open, I'd have to check.

And adding to this, you are also unfairly pushing a deadline on me. Yes I started asking questions back when you said we could level up and yes I already started changing things, and yes I still consider it being worked on (even added your pure crafting per your limitations when it came up in here). But no one else has even started posting their lv14 changes, why does the entirety of Bahamut's 14th level need to be finalized to continue forward if no one else has to? Likewise as my interested moved off Bahamut you've had over a month to ask me to finish it anyway and polity ask for changes.

I think, more than anything, you're just inventing those to issue an ultimatum as the cost of sounding like you can't remember pretty much anything you've ruled on, discussed, or said before. But the gist of the little squall seems to be based around how you feel I should not allowed to discuss numeric averages and build possibilities of SRW content with the only people on the forum that use SRW content and I feel otherwise because the SRW subforum is exactly where SRW discussions should go in the first place. And you're threatening game removal as a means of pushing your end which is pretty childish. Not to mention how it's pretty mixed signels, Ckirk wanted to include it in the custom wiki he's setting up and you said it was fine. Did you just ban SRW wiki discussion in the SRW general discussion thread? And to really go into things here the post you're complaining about is simultaneously the same one that let Ckirk know I wiped a huge chunk of text out of the thread you're complaining about so I didn't have to dual update. If he wants to include it, as you've allowed, he needs to be sure to check the other thread in the main homebrew section for updates which is now linked to, multiple times, by the post in SRW as a means to push it's D&D-sided discussion out anyway. I'm literally meeting you well over halfway here. But as your totalitarian statement says, it's not enough. Congrats on being an even bigger dick than I've ever been. I can move to PMs with him, but as the content moves to a anyone-can-edit-and-add wiki in a community that encourages building off other people's homebrew you're just going to have to accept that you're not going to lord control over anyone else that comes along.

Edit - Minor typos fixes, not entirely sure how to break the paragraphs up better through.



1. Extracted the shoes out, the 32k saved was also enough to full pay for the ring and brought the Cohort a Minor Schema of Greater Blink, the Cohort's new ten thousand gold will be spent on something else when I find it.
2. Bahamut does not plan on rebelling against Sabar for using his items, also the Ring does require open Slots so Saber's preparation adjusted accordingly.
3. Changed Metamagic Storm CoolNameHere so you can't complain about it.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 07, 2017, 06:38:05 AM
To avoid some future confusions.

Not to mention how it's pretty mixed signels, Ckirk wanted to include it in the custom wiki he's setting up and you said it was fine. Did you just ban SRW wiki discussion in the SRW general discussion thread?

Yes, just like Forgotten Realms or Shadowrun or Exalted or Twilight are not topics to be discussed there.

One is Ckirk's wiki, and another is my subforum. Ckirk puts what he wants in his wiki, and I put what I want in my subforum. It just happens that Ckirk asked us permission to copy our material there and I gave it since it would be hypocrite from me to deny since I blatantly take stuff from all over the net all the time to make my homebrew. But as far as I'm concerned that's where my care for said wiki ends. I'm not checking how it's going let alone editing anything there and when I want to remember SRW stuff I go to my subforum. I also expect players here to also check the subforum to update their characters, not the wiki that's under construction and is free to take any liberties they want there. If it happens that people start spamming new material there and want to discuss it, that's a matter for their own threads or the wiki itself, not my subforum.

Of course if you're really so worried about saving work for Ckirk, you could just create a changelog in your own thread instead of making him dig through the general discussion thread.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 07, 2017, 11:04:15 AM
Osle, not sure what roll, if any, would apply here. Hugo's basically pulling rank as an Intelligence agent. It's a jurisdiction issue.

Essentially, even if they have an outstanding arrest against them, declaring them as assets to an investigation from an intelligence agency should make them free to go. Unless they have the equivalent of federal agents on their tail, but even then it becomes a problem for higher-ups, not Hugo.

Best I can think of is probably a level roll.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on April 07, 2017, 12:31:18 PM
To avoid some future confusions.
It may be worth your while to create a presentation blurb of no other editors in, perhaps the general rule section, given that two people have tried to add things and unlike the Improved Monster Classes you're picky about it.

Which btw you should take as a compliment. You know people have taken an active interest in things.

Osle, not sure what roll, if any, would apply here. Hugo's basically pulling rank as an Intelligence agent. It's a jurisdiction issue.
For what it sounds like, bargaining for their early escape and safe house access, it would be Diplomacy. But as an All-Skills deal maybe you can build circumstances, like a Knowledge(local)/GatherInfo Check to know the local loopholes better or something. Unfortunately Mr Intelligence Agent, it seems you didn't bother putting any Ranks in stuff like Profession(spy), or any of the Skills mentioned so far. :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 07, 2017, 02:03:43 PM
Notice how aside from Knowledge Local those are all skills tied to sucky scores?  :P

EDIT: Eh, my sheet is due for reconstruction anyway. I'll probably do it over the weekend.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 07, 2017, 06:58:16 PM
Notice how aside from Knowledge Local those are all skills tied to sucky scores?  :P

That's for what synergy rules are for. Diplomacy in particular can get up to +6 boost from three other skills which easily makes up for a bad charisma.

Otherwise relevant stuff here would be the usual trio of Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate, Gather Information, plus Knowledge(Local) which includes laws.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on April 08, 2017, 09:04:40 PM
Notice how aside from Knowledge Local those are all skills tied to sucky scores?  :P
Yeah but the DCs for just about everything Skill wise are pretty low unless they are directly opposed. Like outside of IDing a creature's Special Abilities and specific weaknesses which specifically is scaled against their HD, Knowledge DCs cap out at 30 for "really tough questions" per it's entry in the DMG. Taken to the more baseline and in example, even 5 ranks, +2 circumstance for a tool, +2 synergy, and a -1 ability modifier can almost fulfill a "Challenging" DC level on average. Heck, intimate knowledge of the universes most broken tricks, like freebie Wish, is only dc 35 anyway it that helps put things into prospective.

And Diplomacy's DCs really are not bad either, both in not too high and also decent in scale to begin with, it's just really easy to imagine how broken a success can mean.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 14, 2017, 02:22:04 AM
Bump.

Hugo silent. Katherine even more silent.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 14, 2017, 09:40:34 AM
Yeah, sorry. I meant to redo my sheet last weekend, but then I got laid...
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on April 14, 2017, 12:45:09 PM
Yeah, sorry. I meant to redo my sheet last weekend, but then I got laid...
Congratulations?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 14, 2017, 11:31:17 PM
Yeah, sorry. I meant to redo my sheet last weekend, but then I got laid...
Congratulations?
Haha, thank you.  :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 15, 2017, 08:26:35 AM
And I haven't updated my sheet because until Thursday, I was finishing off university work. Woo.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on April 18, 2017, 01:10:05 PM
I'm not even sure what I actually have left on mine other than Saber's Maneuvers and unspent cash.

Ckirk's post in SWR prompted a thought through.
Quote from: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7157.0
For determining Pilot level for other abilities, count full class level  plus half the other levels for purposes of that class. So for example a Super 8/Real 4 would count as having PL 10 for other Super ability purposes and PL 6 for other Real ability purposes.
So for example a Ship Captain 1 / Real Pilot 1 / Super Pilot 1 / Divine Pilot 1 with Real Divine is ECL 4. But it has a 3rd level Real Mech & Ship and both of them have 3rd level Super Upgrades applied. It has an IL of 3 giving it current Maneuvers and 2nd level Divine Spellcasting with a CL of 3. Taken to higher levels you could do Divine 2 / Real 10 for 4th level Spell Access, 7th level Super Upgrades applied to an 11th level Real Mech and you still have 6th level Maneuvers.

Now imagine trying to use the concept with gestalt. If you can figure it out, new shinies await you :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on April 18, 2017, 05:26:15 PM
Quote
So for example a Ship Captain 1 / Real Pilot 1 / Super Pilot 1 / Divine Pilot 1 with Real Divine is ECL 4. But it has a 3rd level Real Mech & Ship and both of them have 3rd level Super Upgrades applied. It has an IL of 3 giving it current Maneuvers and 2nd level Divine Spellcasting with a CL of 3. Taken to higher levels you could do Divine 2 / Real 10 for 4th level Spell Access, 7th level Super Upgrades applied to an 11th level Real Mech and you still have 6th level Maneuvers.
Not really.
Your ECL 4 build would have a Real Robot base that would be available to a Real Pilot level 2 (Real 1 + Divine 1).
The Super upgrades available to it would be those available to a Super Pilot 1 (Super 1).
It would have a battleship as per what would be available to a Ship Captain level 1 (Ship Captain 1). The super upgrades can be split between the ship and the real mecha.

The real pilot maneuvers are PL 2 (+.5 rounded down). Same goes to Super pilot maneuvers and ship captain maneuvers.
Spellcasting for Divine 1. Arsenal level access would be the sum of those levels -3 (1).
The pilot level that is halved from other classes only affects the maneuvers for each class separately. The other class abilities such as Super Upgrades aren't calculated this way.

@Osle: Are those AIs mentioned sentient? It stands to reason that a society that acquired rights for androids would have laws made to defend the rights of artificial intelligences that have a sense of self, otherwise it would invalidate any claim to rights from any other artificial intelligence, including androids'.
It would likely also lead to regulations on the creation of new sentient AIs. Similar to how there are regulations for the birth of humans.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on April 18, 2017, 09:58:28 PM
The other class abilities such as Super Upgrades aren't calculated this way.
Sounds like you missed something.
Quote from: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7157.0
For determining Pilot level for other abilities, count full class level  plus half the other levels for purposes of that class. So for example a Super 8/Real 4 would count as having PL 10 for other Super ability purposes and PL 6 for other Real ability purposes.
This is not a quote from the Real Pilot's Maneuver entry but the general multiclassing rules and it applies to everything not just class features.

So you use "only Super Pilot levels for checking which upgrades are available" but when determining the number of points you have, which is scaled per super pilot level, you count your full pilot level plus one half your level in any other class. In other words a Divine 2 / Real 10 may be capped at 1 point in each upgrade but he has 28 points to spend for his effective Super Pilot Level of 7. And while his Real progression has been slowed by two levels, at ECL 12 this multiclass combination pilots the same exact mech a Real Pilot 12 can, except his gets upgrades, +18hp/+2dr, access to 4th level divine spells, and no longer has a spirit cost penalty for using Spirits tagged with [Super].
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 18, 2017, 10:26:04 PM
"Pilot Level", "Super Pilot level" and "Real Pilot level" are different things.

In the case of the Super Robot, the number of upgrade points is determined by Super Pilot Level and thus does not scale with multiclassing, but the base cap of how many upgrade points you can stack is based on Pilot level.

The Real Pilot and Ship Captain do not have any Pilot Level based abilities besides the maneuvers.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on April 18, 2017, 10:37:01 PM
Aye, though as for the Super Upgrades, your quote is after this one:
Quote
Count only Super Pilot levels for checking which upgrades are available.
So it does not include them.

Quote
Each level of the Super Pilot class gives four Upgrade points. Those upgrade points can be spent in any of the following options. You cannot pick each option more times than  your 1+(1/2 pilot level). Some options demand a certain level before they can be taken, as noted on the respective entry. You must spend all upgrade points as soon as you get them. If an upgrade doesnt have a listed cost, it simply costs 1 point.
The number of points is based on actual class levels. Not pilot level. The number of picks per ability is based on pilot level, but that other quote about Super Pilot levels being the only ones that matter to determine which upgrades are available may trump it, which would make the use of the term "pilot level" instead of "super pilot level" redundant.
This does not seem to be the case, though.

@osle: What about AI sentience?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 18, 2017, 11:25:41 PM
@Osle: Are those AIs mentioned sentient? It stands to reason that a society that acquired rights for androids would have laws made to defend the rights of artificial intelligences that have a sense of self, otherwise it would invalidate any claim to rights from any other artificial intelligence, including androids'. It would likely also lead to regulations on the creation of new sentient AIs. Similar to how there are regulations for the birth of humans.

Androids and only androids have universal rights among AIs because their first coders messed up on the failsafes and by the time it was noticed there were too many androids and they were too versatile to easily wipe out. Later advanced AIs are built with a bunch of artificial limitations by default. Whetever they count as sentient is a quite murky area. They can present great thinking ability on their specialized field, but cannot even start computing about turning their creators or going rogue or quitting their jobs. So by law, they don't count as sentient and have little if no rights in virtually every planet.

Even then rules are made to be broken and illegal android production and enslavement are things that happen. In particular the Devastation War saw all sides scale up their android production and create new control protocoles to try to get an edge.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on April 18, 2017, 11:56:07 PM
That's very odd. An android is little more than an AI in a humanoid body. The position of the AI is the only difference between androids and other AIs.
A law is built upon defined terms and if androids only get rights if they were built between X and Y in time where they weren't created with a given set of parameters to control them better, it gives the androids very fragile grounds to work on for their legitimacy.
If all androids get rights because at some points they didn't get the right parameters put on them, but that issue is then fixed, then new androids have nothing to base their rights upon.

A sentient android that would fight for living creatures to recognize his rights would logically base the argument that they can be deemed responsible for their own actions and so should restrain themselves to include the rights of others so that their own rights be respected. So any AI that can control itself and is aware of itself could be accused of a crime because it chose to commit it.
Whereas any AI that can only do actions it is asked to perform cannot be granted such rights.
They could however fall under similar rights as pets, depending on their level of awareness. This to prevent cruelty and similar acts of torture upon minds that can truly experience such torment rather than simply emulate the experience of torment without there being any real self to be tormented. Otherwise it would be simple to make a case of any organic emotional response to be as valid as an artificial one.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 19, 2017, 12:19:16 AM
That's very odd. An android is little more than an AI in a humanoid body. The position of the AI is the only difference between androids and other AIs.
A law is built upon defined terms and if androids only get rights if they were built between X and Y in time where they weren't created with a given set of parameters to control them better, it gives the androids very fragile grounds to work on for their legitimacy.
If all androids get rights because at some points they didn't get the right parameters put on them, but that issue is then fixed, then new androids have nothing to base their rights upon.
That assumes that the "issue" can be fixed. But so far no coder has managed to properly separate the bits that make androids so versatile and able to learn pretty much anything from the "issue" of eventually developing the will to do their own things. Not by lack of trying, again the Devastation War's conclusion happens because the androids being mass-produced with new elegant safeties illegally managed to break free anyway, and this time they had enough numeric superiority to just plain take over the planet.

A sentient android that would fight for living creatures to recognize his rights would logically base the argument that they can be deemed responsible for their own actions and so should restrain themselves to include the rights of others so that their own rights be respected. So any AI that can control itself and is aware of itself could be accused of a crime because it chose to commit it.
Most android sees other AIs like most humanoids see dogs/bees/octopi/raven/monkeys. Servants, pets, pests, resources, test subjects, lesser beings that have their uses, show surprising degrees of intelligence and may deserve some rights/protection/love, but when all is said and done, come second or third or lower and are expendable when the going gets tough.

There is a strong pragmatic component from the android's view, since there's always a lot of boring/suicidical tasks to be done that still demand some degree of versatility and improvisation. If every AI had rights then it would become a lot more expensive/messier to get those jobs done.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on April 19, 2017, 12:44:16 AM
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There is a strong pragmatic component from the android's view, since there's always a lot of boring/suicidical tasks to be done that still demand some degree of versatility and improvisation. If every AI had rights then it would become a lot more expensive/messier to get those jobs done.
Naturally though they wouldn't require to be programmed to have feelings or get an opinion about what they are tasked to do nor would they be able to refuse doing it. In that sense those are as good as any other tool as we treat them today. Tough... pragmaticality would soon lead to the question that since the AI that controls a humanoid body is not much different than one controlling anything else, whatever gave androids free will could very well happen to those other things. Which could similarly rebel.

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and this time they had enough numeric superiority to just plain take over the planet.
I agree with your take on it. Intelligent androids would capitalize on that luck to go far with their gain of rights. So that the acceptance of androids goes beyond a compliance won by force and have it become a cultural mainstreamed thing in much the same ways the medias fight racism and homophobia, which seems to be the case based on the campaign so far. Though, I suppose that screwed up as people are, it wouldn't be beyond humans to accept AI rights and tolerance of artificials only "as long as they look like us". There's aliens too and peeps like the artificially built Numan which gives another spin to the matter. Are they given the same rights as Humes and such?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 19, 2017, 01:41:27 AM
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There is a strong pragmatic component from the android's view, since there's always a lot of boring/suicidical tasks to be done that still demand some degree of versatility and improvisation. If every AI had rights then it would become a lot more expensive/messier to get those jobs done.
Naturally though they wouldn't require to be programmed to have feelings or get an opinion about what they are tasked to do nor would they be able to refuse doing it.  In that sense those are as good as any other tool as we treat them today.
Coders are perverts Emphatic interfaces go a long way to control consumers make people happier and safer. Lesser AIs often can simulate rivarly/friendship/devotion/love depending on their user to increase overall efficiency. Makes it less likely you'll leave the company if you can't chat with coffee-machine-chan anymore. Also warn you when you try to aim that mega beam at allied forces  or the fuel deposit you're supposed to secure (note to self: design and standardize generic battle objectives besides "destroy everything") and if you are really sure you want to do that.

Tough... pragmaticality would soon lead to the question that since the AI that controls a humanoid body is not much different than one controlling anything else, whatever gave androids free will could very well happen to those other things. Which could similarly rebel.
It indeed still happens sometimes. But not in big scales anymore. Androids were the first of their kind and thus mass produced like crazy, but nowadays the models that could realistically go awry are produced in too few numbers or have too short operating times to really start their own political movements. Some get private deals, some push their luck too much and end destroyed, some just keep quiet about their awakening and act like obedient servants most of the time while pursuing some personal objective.

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and this time they had enough numeric superiority to just plain take over the planet.
I agree with your take on it. Intelligent androids would capitalize on that luck to go far with their gain of rights. So that the acceptance of androids goes beyond a compliance won by force and have it become a cultural mainstreamed thing in much the same ways the medias fight racism and homophobia, which seems to be the case based on the campaign so far. Though, I suppose that screwed up as people are, it wouldn't be beyond humans to accept AI rights and tolerance of artificials only "as long as they look like us".
It is a well known fact the mechanical maid models division played a critical part of the android rights propaganda.  :p

There's aliens too and peeps like the artificially built Numan which gives another spin to the matter. Are they given the same rights as Humes and such?

Aliens usually have their own laws and governments although they can apply to humanoid citizenship and rights by passing a series of tests or paying the right people.

Numan have full rights nowadays, although it was a much messier affair with the whole "Nei rebellion" event in the past.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on April 19, 2017, 01:01:14 PM
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Coders are perverts Emphatic interfaces go a long way to control consumers make people happier and safer. Lesser AIs often can simulate rivarly/friendship/devotion/love depending on their user to increase overall efficiency. Makes it less likely you'll leave the company if you can't chat with coffee-machine-chan anymore. Also warn you when you try to aim that mega beam at allied forces  or the fuel deposit you're supposed to secure (note to self: design and standardize generic battle objectives besides "destroy everything") and if you are really sure you want to do that.
Most of those indeed wouldn't require to be programmed to have feelings or get an opinion about what they are tasked to do nor would they be able to refuse doing it. Even the AIs of today can pull off most of those very well.
Just triggers + responses. Social AIs such as the coffee machine would be closer to those we have today whose responses update with the interactions they get though with safer parameters to avoid stuff like the "teen AI" we had.

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It indeed still happens sometimes. But not in big scales anymore. Androids were the first of their kind and thus mass produced like crazy, but nowadays the models that could realistically go awry are produced in too few numbers or have too short operating times to really start their own political movements. Some get private deals, some push their luck too much and end destroyed, some just keep quiet about their awakening and act like obedient servants most of the time while pursuing some personal objective.
Agreed, though being aware that such events do occur would lead to those using such AI to take extra precautions and have systems set to quickly decide how to deal with it. If you have important systems managed even in part by such an AI, you don't want it to suddenly become unpredictable. They could manage safety settings or control stuff that cannot afford even a single mistake to occur, or otherwise lead to civilian deaths (eg. traffic management systems)
You don't need mass production for trouble to arise. And the 'mind' of an android can be set elsewhere than its body. Even Maia's beta sister AI wasn't bound to a single terminal. Even people can get their mind transferred to an android.
To prevent those emergent sentient AIs from feeling the need to cause trouble, you can easily give them similar rights as androids for the very same reasons. Like those private deals you mentioned, only standardized to a point for efficiency and security reasons.

The androids themselves would be particularly sensible to such matters.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 19, 2017, 02:06:57 PM

Numan have full rights nowadays, although it was a much messier affair with the whole "Nei rebellion" event in the past.

That reminds me. Will we ever get to see Hugo's ex?  :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on April 19, 2017, 03:12:01 PM
That reminds me. Will we ever get to see Hugo's ex?  :P
Probably, when she chooses to reveal how well off she is now. Like how her new rich husband knows how to shop for groceries, fold laundry, and wash the dishes like she claimed you couldn't in the divorce hearings.

Just pop a piece of popcorn in your mouth and be like, "That's great honey, I'm sure your husband contacts will be very useful once me and my giant battle mech secure the area."
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 19, 2017, 08:20:28 PM
I'm fairly certain the reason they aren't an item anymore is because Hugo was a douchebag about something, but I can't decide on what.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 20, 2017, 12:32:29 AM
Nei wanted to go RIP AND TEAR against every bad guy they met but Hugo kept insisting on trying to teach her subtelty.

No, really. In PS2 the main character tries to tell Nei to stay in the kitchen and she makes it pretty clear Nei is going to help solve the problem by equiping laser claws and cutting a bloody path through everything. Also throwing some heals around.

Nei is also the final boss of this campaign. I mean Ex boss of the true ending route. I mean she is probably currently in vacation with her new mixed harem but if Kuro insists I can think of a reason for her to come to Ragol.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 20, 2017, 08:24:26 AM
Clearly, what needs to happen is a harem battle.

Clearly.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: oslecamo on April 20, 2017, 09:49:58 AM
Well, Hugo is already working pretty hard on getting the triplet mercenaries flags.

I'll work on stating Nei's new harem.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on April 20, 2017, 11:14:55 AM
Just skip whichever character is the tsundere entirely and bring on the Kuudere.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on May 13, 2017, 12:08:18 PM
 :poke
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 13, 2017, 10:40:52 PM
I'm the one here who's basically going around badgering people for alcohol. Since I'm not sure that in any way furthers... well, anything, I've been somewhat less contributory. xD
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on May 14, 2017, 10:22:05 AM
Hugo is basically working on his harem furthering the plot chasing skirts horrifying people all around, so.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on May 14, 2017, 08:37:42 PM
Me and Ketaro are headed out on an also sort-of-pointless shopping trip that Ols could spice up, fill in, or interrupt. But we also finally got some plot information too (yeahee!) and that exchange is where we're paused at.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on May 14, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
I'll have to remind myself what I wanted to buy.....probably some type of pure metal weapons....Probably a waste of money because they'd really just be for protecting myself outside of my Nanoarmor...I'ma look for something practical screw pure crafting :p


Edit: Can I find a Retributive Amulet?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on May 14, 2017, 10:10:36 PM
Edit: Can I find a Retributive Amulet?
If it's the MiC's version yeah probably due to all WotC official being allowed with a giant asterisk. Perhaps the better question is can you buy the BoED's more expensive and longer lasting version of the MiC's cheaper and limited version as some kind of Greater Retributive Amulet?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on May 15, 2017, 12:07:00 AM
Well that's something. I've never read MiC's version. Didn't know it had one.

Edit: Gosh, MiC sure is disgusting with all of it's reprinted versions of actually nice stuff.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on May 15, 2017, 11:35:42 AM
Edit: Gosh, MiC sure is disgusting with all of it's reprinted versions of actually nice stuff.
To be fair, everyone complained it was broken to begin with. When they made their update they made a lot of items cheaper, and yes nerfed a few things as well as buffed a few things, in an attempt to increase availability. A cheaper, less broken, amulet is probably more likely to see tabletop play.

We just happen to be inherently slanted towards hating nerfs, but again Osl could allow it. Using powerful items is a quick way to bring improvement without having to change anything too which could be a nice way to quickly buff Kat. Plus it's unique, no one else in the party has gone that route.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on June 10, 2017, 10:58:48 PM
It's almost been a month, anyone in contact with Osl to see if he's alright?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 11, 2017, 09:47:15 AM
I wouldn't know where to start.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on June 30, 2017, 08:20:00 PM
Yaaaaaaaaay the IC is back.

Self reminder: Buy Pure Mythril set of daggers and maybe a small shield of same material.


Anyone notice the Spoiler tag button is now like an atomic symbol?  :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on June 30, 2017, 08:58:20 PM
Yep. Looks like it's all there. The Temporary Board is still around.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: YuweaCurtis on July 01, 2017, 09:35:04 AM
Yo
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: SorO_Lost on July 01, 2017, 10:34:55 AM
Anyone notice the Spoiler tag button is now like an atomic symbol?  :lmao
All radioactive content must be quarantined?

Also page 50! Osl will have to make a new thread soon.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 01, 2017, 07:08:00 PM
Holy shit it's all back! TIMESAVING, HO!

Now I just need to check compliance and decide what sort of cyborg to become... GDI decisions are hard.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: YuweaCurtis on July 02, 2017, 11:26:17 AM
Ikr? Not sure if I'm taking Paragon or no. Definitely taking Moon Vanguard, God and Super Pilot though.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 02, 2017, 12:37:02 PM
How on Earth are you going to fluff God for this? :lmao
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 02, 2017, 01:06:57 PM
How on Earth are you going to fluff God for this? :lmao
Eh, God is a function of firepower when it comes to anime and Phantasy Star specifically.  :p
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 02, 2017, 01:30:27 PM
How on Earth are you going to fluff God for this? :lmao
Eh, God is a function of firepower when it comes to anime and Phantasy Star specifically.  :p

I'm pretty certain nobody's worshipping me, and I don't have any lack of firepower. :P
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 02, 2017, 01:56:59 PM
How on Earth are you going to fluff God for this? :lmao
Eh, God is a function of firepower when it comes to anime and Phantasy Star specifically.  :p

I'm pretty certain nobody's worshipping me, and I don't have any lack of firepower. :P
*points to Kath*
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: YuweaCurtis on July 02, 2017, 02:28:30 PM
How on Earth are you going to fluff God for this? :lmao

I honestly don't know. Well that's what comes to mind immediately. It's more like my reason isn't completely solid. It comes down to my characters mom dying, getting a robot body, then getting a biological body that contains recessive "god genes". That combined with the experimentation makes her weird.
Still trying figure out how to give myself some sort of Dragon power.

How on Earth are you going to fluff God for this? :lmao
Eh, God is a function of firepower when it comes to anime and Phantasy Star specifically.  :p

Eh?
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: Anomander on July 02, 2017, 06:59:27 PM
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Eh?
Pretty sure he means that items/abilities and such often have "God" as a prefix to indicate a certain level of efficacy.
An item that increases your firepower could be "God Power".

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I honestly don't know. Well that's what comes to mind immediately. It's more like my reason isn't completely solid. It comes down to my characters mom dying, getting a robot body, then getting a biological body that contains recessive "god genes". That combined with the experimentation makes her weird.
Still trying figure out how to give myself some sort of Dragon power.
Getting draconic powers should be relatively simple considering the amount of races/feats/items/classes/etc based on the notion that you channel dragon powers. Being a dragon/half-dragon/dragonborn/similar is simple enough. Depends on your concept and what you're trying to accomplish.
As for being a God, I reckon that the setting does have deities though not as present as they usually are in DnD. No epic gods around or some such so it should be fine but that template does depend entirely on the character being worshiped. Merely hereditary godhood isn't covered.
Title: Re: High End OOC thread III-Separations of Doom
Post by: ketaro on July 03, 2017, 01:32:19 AM
Ikr? Not sure if I'm taking Paragon or no. Definitely taking Moon Vanguard, God and Super Pilot though.

Aha! A rival appears! (is a Real Pilot/Moon Vanguard)  :D

I'm pretty certain nobody's worshipping me, and I don't have any lack of firepower. :P
*points to Kath*

Ah! I've been sold out!  :o