Obsolete thread: Wyrm Warrior (3.5)

[FireInTheSky]

[/spoiler=Chromatic Dragons]
[/spoiler=Black]
Insect plague (V, Sp): You can us insect plague s a spell-like ability, with a caster level equal to your class level, a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier.

A couple typos in there.

[sirpercival]

[/spoiler=Chromatic Dragons]
[/spoiler=Black]
Insect plague (V, Sp): You can us insect plague s a spell-like ability, with a caster level equal to your class level, a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier.

A couple typos in there.

Thank you very much, fixed. What do you think of the class??

[FireInTheSky]

Thank you very much, fixed. What do you think of the class??

Veeerrry Eenterestinc...   

[littha]

I like the class a lot but I thought you might appreciate some critique:
1. Breath damage should probably scale through additional d6 rather than die size increases to keep verisimilitude with the dragons breath weapons
2. Recovery mechanism could be more interesting, thoughts below
3. d8 is still a bit low for this kind of class, I would consider d10 or d12 just because its a front line non finesse class.
4. Obviously more Ideals. I might do some if you give a couple more examples and you want the help.
5. Consider that before level 10 you will have an extremely shallow pool of manuvers compared to a crusader/warblade/swordsage due to the mechanics on Ideals.
 


Recharge thoughts:
To tie back to dragons why not have expended manuvers recover in 1d4 rounds automatically or recover whenever you use your breath weapon (though that would need to be at level 1 then). Certainly more interesting than it is now.

[sirpercival]

I like the class a lot but I thought you might appreciate some critique:

Yes indeed I would, thank you!

1. Breath damage should probably scale through additional d6 rather than die size increases to keep verisimilitude with the dragons breath weapons

I thought about that, and actually had it like that for a while, but the problem is that doing so removes a lot of the granularity in the scaling.  To get the same power level, I only get two increases (->2d6->3d6) instead of four.

2. Recovery mechanism could be more interesting, thoughts below
3. d8 is still a bit low for this kind of class, I would consider d10 or d12 just because its a front line non finesse class.

So is duskblade.  There will be some ideals which give bonus hit points... do you think that isn't enough?

4. Obviously more Ideals. I might do some if you give a couple more examples and you want the help.

I'd love the help.  I'm under no illusions that this is finished yet... I've only had a chance to do one so far, and there are probably more like 50 (or 150 if I include homebrew dragons) to do.

5. Consider that before level 10 you will have an extremely shallow pool of manuvers compared to a crusader/warblade/swordsage due to the mechanics on Ideals.

That's true, you have fewer... but you also have more versatility due to the Ideal mechanics, as well as the other class features.  However, if the consensus is that there aren't enough maneuvers known, I can up the progression.

I'm also worried about the fact that you gain access to more disciplines as you go up in level, and what to do about allowing redistribution.

Recharge thoughts:
To tie back to dragons why not have expended manuvers recover in 1d4 rounds automatically or recover whenever you use your breath weapon (though that would need to be at level 1 then). Certainly more interesting than it is now.

I like the 1d4 cooldown time, that's nice.  I'll change it.

[Garryl]

1. Breath damage should probably scale through additional d6 rather than die size increases to keep verisimilitude with the dragons breath weapons

d12 and d20 damage die breaths are a bit out of place, but dragon breath damage varies substantially in both die size and quantity even in core. The weakest are 1d6/age category (White and Brass), scaling up to 2d10/age category (Red and Gold). Perhaps a progression truer to the core dragons would be 1d6/2d4/2d6/2d8/2d10 instead of the current progression of 1d6/1d8/1d10/1d12/1d20.

2. Recovery mechanism could be more interesting, thoughts below

...

Recharge thoughts:
To tie back to dragons why not have expended manuvers recover in 1d4 rounds automatically or recover whenever you use your breath weapon (though that would need to be at level 1 then). Certainly more interesting than it is now.

Littha, that idea about recharging maneuvers is neat. I'd suggest doing it every 1d4+1 rounds or longer, though. Crusaders get all their maneuvers back every 3 rounds, and their maneuver recovery is already a strong contender for the most powerful recovery method. If switching to an automatic recovery system like that, I'd increase the number of maneuvers readied at low levels so you don't have long gaps where nothing is available.

5. Consider that before level 10 you will have an extremely shallow pool of manuvers compared to a crusader/warblade/swordsage due to the mechanics on Ideals.

What's wrong with it? At any given level, you have as many or more maneuvers known as a Warblade (after including the bonus maneuvers from your ideals), one or more of which can be changed every day to match the highest level maneuvers you can use and/or fill some utility you might need for the day. You do have one fewer readied, though.

[littha]

2. Recovery mechanism could be more interesting, thoughts below
3. d8 is still a bit low for this kind of class, I would consider d10 or d12 just because its a front Eline non finesse class.

So is duskblade.  There will be some ideals which give bonus hit points... do you think that isn't enough?

Duskblade is a gish though and probably closer to cleric on the scale of things. In the end the actual die size means little above 1 or 2 more hp per level.

What's wrong with it? At any given level, you have as many or more maneuvers known as a Warblade (after including the bonus maneuvers from your ideals), one or more of which can be changed every day to match the highest level maneuvers you can use and/or fill some utility you might need for the day. You do have one fewer readied, though.

It is less about number of manuvers and more about number of disciplines. A warblade could conceivably have maneuvers from 5 different diciplines readied at once which give a lot more breadth of use.

[sirpercival]

OK, so the recovery has been set to automatic after 1d4+1 rounds, and the breath damage changed to Garryl's suggestion.  I'm not sure what to do with (a) the slowly adding disciplines thing, and (b) the progression of maneuvers and readied maneuvers.

[littha]

I would suggest dropping back to the 1d4 round recovery time or dropping the restriction on using a manuver the turn you recover it. At the moment there is a minimum of 5 rounds per use if you get a 1 on your d4:
1. Use Manuver
2. Wait
3. Wait
4. Recover Manuver
5. Use Manuver again

If you get a 4 its
1 Use Manuver
2 Wait
3 Wait
4 Wait
5 Wait
6 Wait
7 Recover Manuver
8 Use Manuver

Depending on where you want your break point this dictates the number of manuvers readied fairly efficiently. Assuming you want a reliable average of 1 manuver a round you need to assume a roll of either 2 or 3 on your d4 resulting in this for a 2:
1. Use Manuver 1
2. Use Manuver 2 (3 rounds left for 1)
3. Use Manuver 3 (2 rounds left for 1)
4. Use Manuver 4 (1 rounds left for 1)
5. Use Manuver 5 (Recover 1)
6. Use Manuver 1

Assuming manuvers 2-5 all get a 2 getting a 3 on your roll for 1 adds a dead round and a 4 adds two but a 1 reduces this by 1 round.

So if you assume above average rolls you need 5 manuvers readied at level 1 to allow an average of 1 a round. Dropping the restriction on using manuvers the round you recover them drops it to 4 and dropping back to 1d4 rather than 1d4+1 drops it to 3 manuvers readied.

[sirpercival]

OK, so I dropped it to 1d4 and removed the restriction on using the same round you recover.  I also increased the number of maneuvers known, maneuvers readied, and ideals known by one.  How does that look?  Too much?

To compensate for the increased number of skills from ideals, I'm also increasing the skill points back up to 4.

[Garryl]

Round 0: Expend
Round 1: Recover and use (if rolled 1)
Round 2: Recover and use (if rolled 2)
...
Round n: Recover and use (if rolled n)

Average time between uses of the same maneuver is 2.5 rounds, Crusader is 4 rounds (3 with a feat). Add back one of the two rounds you took away, either the +1 to the die roll or the inability to use a maneuver as soon as you recover it, please. Preferably the former for mechanical clarity.
Littha, I think you added an extra round of waiting into your calculations. If you use a maneuver of round 1, and roll a 2 for recovery, you recover it 2 rounds later on round 3, not round 4, and then (under the previous revision of the recovery rules) you could use it the next round (on round 4, not round 5).

The additional maneuvers and ideals should be fine. They certainly give the class a few more day-to-day options, which is a good thing. Any chance you could rejigger the ideal progression a bit so you get 10 known instead of 9 by level 20? Given that the core dragons come in groups of 5, I'd hate to have to leave just one out. On the other hand, many of the other groupings of dragons aren't in 5. There are actually 6 gem dragons, for instance (Obsidian dragons were added online, although they were never updated to 3.5).

[phaedrusxy]

Dragon Ideal suggestion 

Song Dragon
Energy Type: Electricity (don't ask me why... I'd have expected it to be Sonic)
Discipline: Divine Muse
Skills: Perform (any), Disguise
Exotic Weapons: Bull Roarer*, Battle-axe (for all you metal fans out there), ?

Ideal Powers:

Countersong (I, Su): You gain the Countersong ability of a bard of your character level.

Disguise Self (II, Sp): As the spell, with a caster level equal to your class level, usable once per point of charisma modifier per day.

Song of Confusion (III, Su): Once per day per point of Charisma modifier, you may sing a discordant song which causes all creatures who fail a Will save to be Confused (as the Confusion spell). Creatures who have saved against your song are immune to it for 24 hours.

Song of Slumber (IV, Su): Once per day per point of Charisma modifier, you may sing a magical lullaby which causes all creatures within 100 feet who fail a Will save to fall into a light, peaceful sleep. Despite being asleep, such creatures still hear all sounds around them, and may make Listen checks with no penalty as if they were awake. Even mildly threatening sounds (weapons being drawn, any creature approaching within 10 feet of them) allows them a second saving throw, and any loud sounds (combat, etc) automatically wakes them up. In addition, since they are still partially aware of their surroundings, they are not considered Helpless, but do lose any Dex bonus to AC and are considered prone. This sleep lasts for as long as you continue the lullaby and for 1 minute after you stop singing. This is a Mind-Affecting effect considered to be of the enchantment school. Creatures who have saved against your song are immune to it for 24 hours.

Captivating Song (V, Su): You may sing a Captivating Song, which works as the harpy's ability, one time per day per point of Charisma modifier. Creatures who have saved against your song are immune to it for 24 hours.


*Exotic Weapons    Cost    Dmg (S)    Dmg (M)    Critical    Range Increment    Weight1    Type2
Bull Roarer    100 gp    1d4 1d6    ×2    —    10 lb.    Bludgeoning and Slashing

This odd item is both a weapon and a musical instrument. While wielding it, a bard can activate any of his Bardic Music abilities as a part of a move action during any round in which he attacks. The Bull Roarer also gives its wielder 10 foot reach but still can be used to attack adjacent opponents. Due to its flexible nature, it can be used to trip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

[sirpercival]

Round 0: Expend
Round 1: Recover and use (if rolled 1)
Round 2: Recover and use (if rolled 2)
...
Round n: Recover and use (if rolled n)

Average time between uses of the same maneuver is 2.5 rounds, Crusader is 4 rounds (3 with a feat). Add back one of the two rounds you took away, either the +1 to the die roll or the inability to use a maneuver as soon as you recover it, please. Preferably the former for mechanical clarity.

Why is the former better for mechanical clarity?  I'd prefer the latter to preserve more similarity to a dragon's breath weapon...

Littha, I think you added an extra round of waiting into your calculations. If you use a maneuver of round 1, and roll a 2 for recovery, you recover it 2 rounds later on round 3, not round 4, and then (under the previous revision of the recovery rules) you could use it the next round (on round 4, not round 5).

The additional maneuvers and ideals should be fine. They certainly give the class a few more day-to-day options, which is a good thing. Any chance you could rejigger the ideal progression a bit so you get 10 known instead of 9 by level 20? Given that the core dragons come in groups of 5, I'd hate to have to leave just one out. On the other hand, many of the other groupings of dragons aren't in 5. There are actually 6 gem dragons, for instance (Obsidian dragons were added online, although they were never updated to 3.5).

Sure, I can do that.  Why not?  Also, I'll add Obsidian to the empty gem dragon spoilers...

I had an idea for how to deal with retraining your maneuvers due to access to more disciplines, so I'll add that too.  Basically, rather than retraining every even level like a normal, upstanding martial adept, you get to do it whenever you learn a new ideal (so, every 3 levels), but only to a maneuver from the new discipline.

Dragon Ideal suggestion 

Yay!  Perfect, thank you    I'll add it in.

I'll try to add a couple more ideals tonight, so everyone else can get cracking.

[Garryl]

Round 0: Expend
Round 1: Recover and use (if rolled 1)
Round 2: Recover and use (if rolled 2)
...
Round n: Recover and use (if rolled n)

Average time between uses of the same maneuver is 2.5 rounds, Crusader is 4 rounds (3 with a feat). Add back one of the two rounds you took away, either the +1 to the die roll or the inability to use a maneuver as soon as you recover it, please. Preferably the former for mechanical clarity.

Why is the former better for mechanical clarity?  I'd prefer the latter to preserve more similarity to a dragon's breath weapon...

Because otherwise you have a maneuver readied and recovered for 1 round before you can initiate it, but it's still not expended so you can expend it for class features like Blade, Breath, and Wings.

[littha]

To be honest 1d4 or 1d4+1 is going to be fairly arbitrary because most encounters wont last more than 3 rounds anyway.

[sirpercival]

Round 0: Expend
Round 1: Recover and use (if rolled 1)
Round 2: Recover and use (if rolled 2)
...
Round n: Recover and use (if rolled n)

Average time between uses of the same maneuver is 2.5 rounds, Crusader is 4 rounds (3 with a feat). Add back one of the two rounds you took away, either the +1 to the die roll or the inability to use a maneuver as soon as you recover it, please. Preferably the former for mechanical clarity.

Why is the former better for mechanical clarity?  I'd prefer the latter to preserve more similarity to a dragon's breath weapon...

Because otherwise you have a maneuver readied and recovered for 1 round before you can initiate it, but it's still not expended so you can expend it for class features like Blade, Breath, and Wings.

Hmm... I see.  OK, we'll do it that way.

[littha]

Some Ideals for you, pretty bland but the planar dragons seem to have boring abilities in general. Some are not finished but I am going to edit them here.


Battle Dragon

(click to show/hide)

Energy type: Sonic
Dicipline: White Raven
Skills: Preform (Oratory), Diplomacy
Exotic Weapons: Any, chosen when you gain this ideal for the first time.

Inspire Courage (I, Su): You gain the Inspire Courage ability of a Bard of your character level.

Warding (II, Sp): You may cast Protection from Evil as a spell like ability 1/day per class level.

Battle Fury (III, EX): You gain the Rage class feature of a barbarian of your character level.

Quick Recovery (IV, Ex): You gain Fast Healing 2

Heroes Feast (V, Sp): You may cast Heroes Feast 1/day as a spell like ability.

Chaos Dragon

(click to show/hide)

Energy Type: Random*
Dicipline: Malfesant Heart
Skills: Knowledge (The Planes), Jump
Exotic Weapons: Dire Flail, Spiked Chain, Nunchaku

*Random energy: At the beginning of each round you must determine your energy type by rolling a d100. 01-20 acid, 21-40 Cold, 41-60 Electricity, 61-80 fire and 81-100 Sonic.

Aberant Psychology (I, Su): You are immune to compulsion effects.

Chaos Hammer (II, Sp): You may cast Chaos Hammer 1/day per class level as a spell like ability.

Chaos Breath (III, Su): In addition to the normal useage of your breath weapon you also gain the ability to emit a cloud of confusing gas. Creatures caught in the gas must succeed on a will save or become confused for 1d4 rounds.

Word of Chaos (IV, Sp): You gain the ability to cast Word of Chaos as a spell like ability 1/day.

Protection of Chaos (V, Su): You are continually protected by a Cloak of Chaos effect.

(click to show/hide)

Chaos Hammer is supposed to be a 4th level spell but I really cant see why it would be higher than 2nd level at best...

Etherial Dragon

(click to show/hide)

Energy Type: Force
Dicipline: Far Realm
Skills: Knowlede (The Planes), Hide
Exotic Weapons: Dire Flail, Boot Blade, Heavy Flail

See Etherial (I, Su) You can see Etherial creatures as though they were visible.

Strike Etherial (II, Su) You may strike etherial creatures as though they were on the material plane.

Dimentional Anchor (III, Sp) You may cast Dimentional Anchor as a spell like ability 1/day per class level.

Etherial Jaunt (IV, Sp) You may cast Etherial Jaunt 1/day per class level as a spell like ability.

Summon Etherial Cyclone (V, Su): Once per day you can summon the awesome power of a Etherial Cyclone. This requires a full round action and lasts 1 minute. Any creature caught in the effect is thrown 1d10 miles in a random direction. This ability may only be used on the etherial plane.

Howling Draogn

(click to show/hide)

Energy Type: Sonic
Dicipline: Rending Scream
Skills: Jump, Preform(any)
Exotic Weapons:

Shatter (I, Sp) You may use Shatter as a spell like ability 1/day per class level.

Gust of Wind (II, Sp) You may use Gust of Wind as a spell like ability 3/day.

Shout (III, Sp) You may use Shout as a spell like ability at will.

Maddening Wail (IV, Su) Once per round as a standard action you may emit a maddening wail that causes 1 point of wisdom damage for every 5 class levels you have to each creature within 50'. A successful will save negates this effect. This is a Sonic, Mind affecting ability.

Weird (V, Sp) Once per day you may cast Wierd as a spell like ability.

Oceanus Dragon

(click to show/hide)

Energy Type: Electricity
Dicipline: Crashing Wave
Skills: Swim, Sense Motive
Exotic Weapons: Whip, Spiked Chain, Whip Dagger

Smite Evil (I, Su) You gain the Smite Evil ability of a paladin of your class level.

Water Breathing (II, Su) You gain the ability to breathe underwater indefinitely and may use your breath weapon and spell like abilities while submerged.

Resistant to damage (III, Su) You are supernaturally resistant to damage and gain DR 5/evil.

Control Water (IV, Sp) You may cast Control Water as a spell like ability 1/day per class level.

Control Winds (V, Sp) You may cast Control Winds as a spell like ability 1/day per class level.

Pyroclastic Dragon

(click to show/hide)

Energy Type: Sonic/Fire*
Dicipline: Breath of Fire
Skills: Spellcraft, Disable Device
Exotic Weapons:

(click to show/hide)

Baghnakh
Exotic one handed weapon.
Cost   Damage   Critical   Type
80gp   1d8    19-20/x2   Slashing

Baghnakh are used as a pair to enhance a persons unarmed attacks. When used by a monk they may choose to use the Baghnakhs damage or their unarmed strike damage (whichever is higher) Baghnakhs may only deal lethal damage but are otherwise treated exactly the same as a monks unarmed attacks when used in this manner. Baghnakh count as light weapons for the purposes of Two weapon fighting so long as both weapons are Baghnakh.

,

*Half Sonic and Half Fire. Round fractions down.

Notes:
Howling dragon needs weapons, Pyroclastic dragon needs more weapons and abilities. Need to find source for heavy flail and Whip Dagger.

[sirpercival]

Some Ideals for you, pretty bland but the planar dragons seem to have boring abilities in general. Some are not finished but I am going to edit them here.

AWESOMENESS!  Thank you

EDIT: I added all these (and placeholders for the rest of the planar dragons).  Didn't do abilities for the Pyroclastic yet, but I have some ideas.

I also put a line in the Ideals class feature that the caster level for all SLAs/Sus from Ideals is equal to initiator level.

[phaedrusxy]

Inspire Courage (I, Su): You gain the Inspire Courage ability of a Bard of your character level.

This is really too good to get as a 1 level dip (as much as I'm tempted by it ). I'd swap this and the Protection from Evil ability.

[sirpercival]

Inspire Courage (I, Su): You gain the Inspire Courage ability of a Bard of your character level.

This is really too good to get as a 1 level dip (as much as I'm tempted by it ). I'd swap this and the Protection from Evil ability.

I can swap them, but I did make it based on wyrm warrior level when transferring.