Author Topic: Angel (planetar/solar)  (Read 21570 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Angel (planetar/solar)
« on: November 08, 2011, 12:56:38 PM »
Angel (planetar/solar)




HD:d8
LevelBabFortRefWillFeature
1+1+ 0+0 +2Celestial body, Celestial blood, Heaven Miracle, Change Shape
2+2+ 0+0 +3 Angel, Summon Servant
3+3+ 1+1+3Righteous Warrior, +1 Wis
4+4+ 1+1+4Celestial Skin, +1 Str
5+5+ 1+1+4Lesser Protective aura
6+6+ 2+2+5Wings, +1 Cha
7+7+ 2+2+5Heaven's Champion, +1 Str
8+8+ 2+2+6Greater Protective aura, +1 Wis
9+9+ 3+3+6+1 Cha, +1 Str
10+10+3+3+7Growth, +1 Cha
11+11+3+3+7+1 Str, +1 Wis
12+12+4+4+8Regeneration
13+13+4+4+8+1 Str, +1 Cha
14+14+4+4+9Divine Messenger
15+15+5+5+9 +1 Str, +1 Wis
16+16+5+5+10Divine Blade
17+17+5+5+10God Speed, +1 Str, +1 Cha
18+18+6+6+11Divine Judgment
19+19+6+6+11Rise to the Heavens, +1 Str, +1 Wis
20+20+6+6+12Solar, Angelic Grace, +1 Str, +1 Wis, +1 Cha
21+20+6+6+12Divine Intervetion, Angelic Grace, +1 Str, +1 Wis, +1 Cha
22+21+7+7+13Holy General, Angelic Grace, +1 Str, +1 Wis, +1 Cha
23+21+7+7+13Divine Champion, +1 Str, +1 Wis, +1 Cha

Skills:2+int modifier per level, quadruple at 1st level,  class skills are Concentration (con), Diplomacy, Heal (wis), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge (any) (int), Listen (wis), Perform(Cha), Sense Motive(Wis), Spellcraft (int), Spot (wis) and Survival (wis)

Proficiencies: simple weapons, two martial weapons of it's choice, slam attacks.


Features:


Celestial body:The angel loses all other racial bonus and gains outsider traits (basicaly darkvision 60 foot). It is a medium sized outsider with base speed 30 foot. It has one slam natural attack dealing 1d10 damage+1,5 str modifier damage, but it can only be used if it has its hands free.

In adition it gains a bonus to nat armor equal to its Cha modifier.
 
Celestial blood: The angel casts spells as if it was a cleric of the same angel level, except that it only knows three cantrips, plus two spells per Angel level and has no domains, instead of knowing the whole cleric spell list. If the Angel multiclasses into cleric or a prc that advancess divine spellcasting, it may choose to keep increasing this spellcasting instead of starting normal cleric spellcasting from the beginning.

Heaven miracle:The angel is a living embodiment of law and good, and this allows him several special powers besides his spellcasting. At the pointed levels in the table he can use the respective spells as SLAs a certain number of times per day. Some of those spells are always active and altough they can be dispelled the angel can recreate them in her own turn as a free action. The angel can also turn those abilities off out of her own will and reactivate them as a free action when needed(only on her own turn).

Save DC against the SLAs and always active abilities is 10+1/2HD+Wis mod.

(click to show/hide)

Change Shape: As the srd ability. A solar can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid and back 1/day per HD as a standard action.

Angel: at 2nd level the Angel gains low light vision,  resistance to petrification, acid, cold, and a bonus on saves against poison equal to its HD and resistance to fire and electrecity equal to half its HD.

In adition it gains the good subtypes and its natural attacks and any weapon it wields count as good  aligned for bypassing DR.

Summon Servant: At 2nd level, the Angel can use Summon Monster I as a SLA as a standard action 1/day per HD, except that it cannot summon evil creatures. Options with the Fiendish template instead get the Celestial template, making them summonable by this ability.

For every two more levels on this class, the Angel can use the next level of Summon Monster (II at 4th level, III at 6th level, ect).

Ability Score Increase: The Angel gains +1 to
Str at levels 4, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23
Wis at levels 3, 8, 11, 15, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23
Cha at levels 6, 9, 10, 13, 17, 20, 21, 22, 23

For a total of +9 Str, +6 Wis, +6 Cha at level 20, and +12 Str, +9 Wis, +9 Cha at level 23.

Righteous Warrior:
At 3rd level the Angel can add its Cha mod to attack rolls with the two martial weapons it gained proficiency at 1st level.

Celestial Skin: At 4th level the Angel gains DR/evil equal to half its HD, and SR equal to 11+HD. At 6 HD the DR improves to DR/evil and magic. It may rise or lower its SR at any time as a free action even if it isn't its turn.

Lesser Protective aura: At 5th level this ability is always active. It works as a Magic circle against evil, but affects all whitin 20 feets of the angel, and the bonus to AC and saves is equal to the Angel's Cha mod.

Wings: At 6th level the Angel grows a pair of beatifull featherly wings that allow it to fly at double it's base speed with good maneuverability.

Heaven's Champion:
At 7th level the Angel can add its Cha mod to damage rolls with the two martial weapons it gained proficiency with at 1st level.

Greater protective aura:At 8th level this ability is always active, as minor glove of invulnerability, but affects all allies whitin 20 feets of the angel and blocks spells up to (Half HD level)-3.


Growth:At 10th level the Angel grows one size category.

Regeneration:At 12th level the Angel gains regeneration equal to half its HD. This regeneration is bypassed only by evil-aligned weapons and spells.

Divine Messenger:At 14th level the Angel gains one Domains of its choice matching its alignment and beliefs, adding all the related spells to its list of spells known and gaining i's granted power, using Angel levels instead of cleric levels. Whenever the Angel prepares its spells, it may change this Domain choice, representing the message it is to deliver that day.

Divine Blade: At 16th level, with 8 hours of meditation, the Angel may attune to a weapon. It gains an enanchment bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to 1/4 HD, and the Dancing property, stacking with any previous magic properties o. On the hands of anyone else but the Angel, this bonus doesn't apply . Only one Divine Blade at a time.

God Speed:at 17th level, the Angel's base speed increases to 50 feet.

Divine Judgment At 18th level,  1/day per HD, as a swift action the Angel may grant the Slaying property of its choice to any projectile  it fires. Fort save DC  10+1/2 HD+Cha mod or be destroyed by the Slaying projectile.

Rise to the Heavens:at 19th level, the Angel's flight speed becomes triple of its base speed.

SolarAt 20th level, the Angel is an exalted being. Its DR improves to DR/Evil and Epic, and its own attacks count as epic and good for purposes of bypassing DR. Creatures summoned by Summon Servant also count their attacks as epic.

In adition, any creature wanting to attack the Angel or any of it's allies whitin 20 feet whitout provocation must suceed on a Will save with DC 10+HD+Cha mod or lose their action. "Provocation" means the Angel attacked the creature itself in any manner on the last 24 hours. Allies who "provoke" an oponent cannot benefit from this protection.

Angelic Grace: At 20th, 21st and 22nd level, the Angel becomes fully immune to one of the following: Acid, Cold, Petrification.

Divine Intervetion: At 21st level, the Angel knows how to be in the right place at the right time. It may cast any harmless spell in a willing creature as an immediate action regardless of it's casting time. If the spell is touch-range, the Angel may take a move action togheter with the casting of the spell with a single immediate action to reach an ally in need.

In adition, it can now use its Divine Judgement ability as a free action, any number of times per day it wishes.

Holy General: At 22nd level the Angel is expected to lead the armies of Heaven in battle if needed. Creatures summoned by Summon Servant now automatically receive all the benefical magic buffs affecting the Angel for free. The Angel may also make the duration of any of his Summon Servant uses increase to 24 Hours, a number of times per day equal to his Cha mod.

Divine Champion:At 23th level the Angel is a true paragon of good and justice, and can overcome any challenge even if just by sheer strenght of Will. A number of times per day equal to his Cha mod, it can replace any Ability check, Skill check or Save it's called to make with a Will save. If it would be affected by any effect whitout a save (besides normal HP damage), it may atempt a Will Save with DC 10+1/2 HD of the originator of the effect+Highest Stat mod of the originator of the effect to ignore it by spending one use of this ability.

New Angel Feats
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« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 08:59:47 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2011, 05:46:36 PM »
Thoughts for the Angel
I'll be commenting things while keeping in mind that your take on the angel is as a heavenly messenger and the wrathful hand of a good.
The class is already pretty solid, so those are just suggestions of what could better it.

Class skills:
-I think you should add Perform because angels are the voice of heaven. They often herald something with a performance, be it song or with a trumpet.
-You gave them Move Silently but not Hide. While angels usually make their presence known wherever they go, having both skills or neither of them would make more sense.
-Angels would benefit much of having Sense Motive. Fiends are reputed for being deceptive and being able to counter their deception and 'read' the heart of men would fit them. (even though they get Discern Lies. SM can be used for other things and when the opposition can counter the spell effect)

Celestial blood: Giving them cleric spellcasting with spells known instead of the whole list is interesting. It puts emphasis in how their divine nature is innate and that they find their power within themselves instead of channeling it from another being. It cast in a similar way to the sorcerer but has more spells known and learns them faster. Though this class is much more than a favored soul. Using the Spontaneous Divine Casters variant from the Unearthed Arcana and base their spellcasting off Charisma would reflect well the innate divine power aspect of the angels. To make it less like a spontaneous cleric with full bab and SLAs, maybe giving it a two level of spellcasting behind the cleric would help. As if he was a normal character who multiclassed to fill the requirements of a full BAB/Spellcasting progression.

Angel: Maybe give it the full Angel subtype eventually. Eventually and maybe progressively granting acid, cold, and petrification immunity. Maybe at level 20, 21 and 22 or all of them a 20/21.

Heaven miracle: Making Tongue constant might be a good idea considering they are messengers.
Giving or replacing another SLA (Maybe Permanency) with Dream would fit.

Change Shape: It would be nice to upgrade the ability at about level 10 to also allow the Angel to assume the form of any animal of up to its own size (max HD of the animal equal to its own HD) and at level 15 to be able to assume the form of a plant or a mundane object (most likely to become a metaphor for the purpose of delivering their message)

New abilities
-Granting the Channeling ability from the Book of Exalted Deeds, but with the ability to speak through the host. Maybe at level 13, could be thematic.
-Code of Conduct-like: They are incarnations of Good. Performing an evil act is something they are not naturally able to consider, but being exposed to stuff out of the good aligned planes can corrupt them enough to make it possible and doing one would taint their nature. Not unlike a paladin, they would fall from grace and lose almost all their abilities, but make it possible to take on some kind of fallen angel template or PrC to convert their abilities à la blackguard.
Restoring an Angel to its former nature would be harder than restoring a paladin considering the significance of the offence. Only an atonement from their original deity would restore them.
-As a counterbalance for the code of conduct, giving them immunity to compulsions to do evil acts would be merciful.
-Perhaps making their protective aura emit light that can (or not, why would they?) be dismissed.

Offline Shadowknight12

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2011, 07:22:29 PM »
-Code of Conduct-like: They are incarnations of Good. Performing an evil act is something they are not naturally able to consider, but being exposed to stuff out of the good aligned planes can corrupt them enough to make it possible and doing one would taint their nature. Not unlike a paladin, they would fall from grace and lose almost all their abilities, but make it possible to take on some kind of fallen angel template or PrC to convert their abilities à la blackguard.
Restoring an Angel to its former nature would be harder than restoring a paladin considering the significance of the offence. Only an atonement from their original deity would restore them.
-As a counterbalance for the code of conduct, giving them immunity to compulsions to do evil acts would be merciful.

Please, don't. Not everyone plays with the alignment system as written or wants black and white morality in their game. If you find the idea charming, add it as a sidebar or an optional enhancement. Alignment and roleplaying restrictions should be presented as options for the DM and players, not hard-coded into core mechanics.

I'll have a proper review for the Angel up later.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2011, 10:15:44 AM »
Anomander

Class skills: Well, there's actualy a trumpet archon that'll get converted some day, but perform feels right. Sense motive also. As for move silently... Can't really remember whey I put it there. Stealth doesn't fit much with the angel so guess I'll just remove it.

Celestial blood: I'll rather keep it preparared spellcasting and wisdom-based as I see the Angel as a more "calm" divine messenger, already having a course of action set up beforehand. Plus the Ghaele Eladrin is already a cha-based spontanteous casting. I also wanted them to feel diferent on that regard.

Angel:
That sounds quite a nice idea to spiff out the epic levels, added then Angelic Grace at levels 20, 21 and 22.

Heaven miracle:
Ah, that's where it shows up the angel was one of the earlier monster classes. Nowadays I give permanent tongues to all the monsters that get it at will, no reason this one shouldn't as well. But I don't see Dream fitting that well, as the Angel is suposed to be messenger himself. Yeah I know it's common in mythology, but then it would have to apply to a lot of other outsiders as well, since team evil also likes to send dreams and whatnot.

Change Shape: DRUID ALERT! Eerr, I mean, extra change shape choices aren't something to be given lightly, but the idea sounds good. Tell you what, added a couple new feats to unlock new forms.

Channeling:
Why limit it to just angels? Channeling/possession (almost the same thing) should be something available to all the alignment outsiders. I'll work on a general monster feat for that when I get some more free time.

Code of Conduct:
I'll have to kinda agree with Shadowknight12 here. Codes are hard to do properly, and then when not just ignored more than once end up twisted.

Really, a good chunk of the people who want to play monster characters ending up wanting bad angels or good demons and whatnot, so I just give them an alignment subtype and let them discuss the rest with their DMs.

Emiting light: Just cast daylight in yourself?


Offline Anomander

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2011, 10:49:14 AM »
Quote
Change Shape: DRUID ALERT! Eerr, I mean, extra change shape choices aren't something to be given lightly, but the idea sounds good. Tell you what, added a couple new feats to unlock new forms.
Haha. Yeah. I was worried about the same thing when I considered it, but I remembered the base ability is Change Shape. All your stuff falls on the floor instead of merging with you if your new form can't wear it and it might hamper spellcasting. Your ability scores stay the same so an Angel wouldn't simply be able to buff all his mental scores and turn into an animal for the rest. The feat idea is nice and does seem fitting.

Quote
Emiting light: Just cast daylight in yourself?
I just thought the strongest angel always shinning wherever it goes was fitting. They could just take the Nimbus of Light feat, I guess. But yeah, cleric spellcasting.

Offline littha

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2012, 10:49:59 AM »
Having just started building one of these I would note the massive MAD and lack of armor proficiencies leads to a very squishy low level character.

MAD because if you want to use the Traditional Solar weapons (Bow and Greatsword) you will need Str, Dex, Con, Wis and Cha. Probably fine once you get to upper levels but on a 32 point buy it becomes rather hard at low levels.

Armor is a minor one with getting Con to AC and cleric spells to make up for it but level 1-3 your AC will be a little low for a front line character, possibly have the natural armor at Con +2.

A 32 point buy with 14/12/14/8/16/14 has 13 AC at level 1. You could get 15 if you used 1/2 of your spells known on Shield of Faith I suppose. At higher levels the low AC isn't going to matter though.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2012, 06:14:01 PM »
You're a divine caster with humanoid shape. Just wear some leather armor, that has 0 penalty and is cheap enough at 1st level. Even the angels on the pics are doing it.

Hmm, would an ability that allows you to add your Cha mod to attack rolls (and eventually damage rolls) with the two martial weapons you gained proficiency with be too much? Say, at levels 3 and 7, replacing the ability boosts there?

Offline littha

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2012, 07:03:04 PM »
Honestly I would either swap the casting to Cha or the abilities to Wis. Cha to attack and damage would also be nice and would likley remedy some of the problem with split abilities.

At the moment, you can build for Casting, Melee or SLAs.
The casting is weak, worse than sorcerer by a long ways (less spell slots and prepared not spontaneous) so anyone who actually wanted the casting would go Favoured Soul (thematically similar too).
The only things that suggest Melee are the BAB and Divine Blade (that needs to be clarified on its interaction with already magic weapons) which are not enough to really carry a melee class on their own (see Soulknife).
The SLAs are the highlight of the class, lots of them would see use and have enough uses a day to be good. Unfortunately the save DC being based on CHA means you are going to want to focus on this or ignore the offensive ones completely.

To sum: Poor casting, Poor melee, Low skill points and a pile of SLAs of varying quality (Accounting for low Save DCs due to MAD). Regeneration and Divine Judgement are nice abilities but come late on.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2012, 07:45:15 PM »
Honestly I would either swap the casting to Cha or the abilities to Wis. Cha to attack and damage would also be nice and would likley remedy some of the problem with split abilities.

At the moment, you can build for Casting, Melee or SLAs.
The casting is weak, worse than sorcerer by a long ways (less spell slots and prepared not spontaneous) so anyone who actually wanted the casting would go Favoured Soul (thematically similar too).
You seem to have missed the key diference that the angel learns two spells per angel level, which is considerably superior to a favored soul (at level 20, FS has 39 spells known, 9 of which are cantrips and only 3 are 9th level, while the angel has 43 spells known, only 3 of which need to be cantrips and up to 8 are 9th level, plus a changeable domain). This is, right away you get to know 4 1st level spells at 2nd level, while a Favored Soul would only know 2. You'll also unlock new spells levels faster and have an easier time with metamagic if you ever choose to go that route.

Not to mention the whole "favored soul has no class features" thing.

The only things that suggest Melee are the BAB and Divine Blade (that needs to be clarified on its interaction with already magic weapons) which are not enough to really carry a melee class on their own (see Soulknife).
The SLAs are the highlight of the class, lots of them would see use and have enough uses a day to be good. Unfortunately the save DC being based on CHA means you are going to want to focus on this or ignore the offensive ones completely.
Dimensional anchor, waves of fatigue/exhaustion, summon monster, power words, neither of those care about DCs.

To sum: Poor casting, Poor melee, Low skill points and a pile of SLAs of varying quality (Accounting for low Save DCs due to MAD). Regeneration and Divine Judgement are nice abilities but come late on.
You also get a pimped permanent Globe of Invulnerability, permanent flight and some DR and SR before that, not too shabby. Really, your only valid complaint I see is "poor" melee. Cha to attack and damage rolls should help take care of that last one, so will add that on as mentioned previously.


Also clarified divine blade+magic weapons and added God Speed at 17th level and Rise to the Heavens at 19th to match the speed increase the solar gets over a planetar.

Offline littha

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2012, 08:40:08 PM »
You seem to have missed the key diference that the angel learns two spells per angel level, which is considerably superior to a favored soul (at level 20, FS has 39 spells known, 9 of which are cantrips and only 3 are 9th level, while the angel has 43 spells known, only 3 of which need to be cantrips and up to 8 are 9th level, plus a changeable domain). This is, right away you get to know 4 1st level spells at 2nd level, while a Favored Soul would only know 2. You'll also unlock new spells levels faster and have an easier time with metamagic if you ever choose to go that route.
Favoured soul will know 60 spells... (9 cantrips, 6 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th, 5 8th and 4 9th) as per Table 1-2 on page 8 of Complete Divine. Angel will know 43.
Favoured Souls know 3 1st level spells at level 2. You do get your spells 1 level earlier though.

Quote
Quote
The only things that suggest Melee are the BAB and Divine Blade (that needs to be clarified on its interaction with already magic weapons) which are not enough to really carry a melee class on their own (see Soulknife).
The SLAs are the highlight of the class, lots of them would see use and have enough uses a day to be good. Unfortunately the save DC being based on CHA means you are going to want to focus on this or ignore the offensive ones completely.
Dimensional anchor, waves of fatigue/exhaustion, summon monster, power words, neither of those care about DCs.
While it is possible to use the SLAs while dumping CHA you do lose access to some of them.

Honestly, add Cha to attack and damage and swap the casting to Cha and the class becomes perfectly workable. I honestly wouldn't drop anything at the same time and you will probably still be bottom of Tier 2 (which is where you are at the moment.)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 08:46:49 PM by littha »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2012, 07:20:34 AM »
You seem to have missed the key diference that the angel learns two spells per angel level, which is considerably superior to a favored soul (at level 20, FS has 39 spells known, 9 of which are cantrips and only 3 are 9th level, while the angel has 43 spells known, only 3 of which need to be cantrips and up to 8 are 9th level, plus a changeable domain). This is, right away you get to know 4 1st level spells at 2nd level, while a Favored Soul would only know 2. You'll also unlock new spells levels faster and have an easier time with metamagic if you ever choose to go that route.
Favoured soul will know 60 spells... (9 cantrips, 6 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th, 5 8th and 4 9th) as per Table 1-2 on page 8 of Complete Divine. Angel will know 43.
Favoured Souls know 3 1st level spells at level 2. You do get your spells 1 level earlier though.
My bad, I could swear the favored soul follows the sorceror spells known.

Still, the angel still knows 52 (you need to count with the domain), and considering 9 of the Favored Soul spells are cantrips versus 3 of the Angel, the diference isn't that big. The angel knows llightly less spells, but knows more higher level spells and progresses faster instead of spontaneous. Plus being able to change domain daily after they get it.

While it is possible to use the SLAs while dumping CHA you do lose access to some of them.

Honestly, add Cha to attack and damage and swap the casting to Cha and the class becomes perfectly workable. I honestly wouldn't drop anything at the same time and you will probably still be bottom of Tier 2 (which is where you are at the moment.)
You don't lose them, you don't need a minimum Cha score to use your SLAs.

Plus, the angel was never suposed to be a nuker/battlefield controler. Your first offensive SLA is Holy Smite at level 7, and that's hardly a top offensive spell. Your next one is blade barrier at 11th level, that isn't that hot either. Prismatic spray is random at best, earthquake has fixed DCs anyway. Mass Charm monster at level 15 is finally something that may count as something you may want to use offensively regularly, but then your racial ability score bonuses will have started to kick in and you're geting +3 to Wis and +2 to Cha already. Ditto for imprisonment 2 levels later.

So yes, I want the angel features to complement each other. Not for you to just pump your Cha to heavens and fly around throwing huge DCs in everything you do while effortestly cuting anything in your path because everything you do is based on said pimped Cha. You've got cleric casting, which means you've got several of the best buffs in the game. They do not need high wisdom scores to work. And your SLAs complement any holes you may have left.

It's a question of quantity really. The monster classes that get both fullcasting and SLAs have already more variety of abilities than any other monster class, not to mention any other abilities in between, so I simply cannot make all their stuff tied to a single ability score, or it wouldn't be fair to the other monster classes here.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 07:28:37 AM by oslecamo »

Offline littha

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2012, 11:37:53 AM »
You seem to have missed the key diference that the angel learns two spells per angel level, which is considerably superior to a favored soul (at level 20, FS has 39 spells known, 9 of which are cantrips and only 3 are 9th level, while the angel has 43 spells known, only 3 of which need to be cantrips and up to 8 are 9th level, plus a changeable domain). This is, right away you get to know 4 1st level spells at 2nd level, while a Favored Soul would only know 2. You'll also unlock new spells levels faster and have an easier time with metamagic if you ever choose to go that route.
Favoured soul will know 60 spells... (9 cantrips, 6 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th, 5 8th and 4 9th) as per Table 1-2 on page 8 of Complete Divine. Angel will know 43.
Favoured Souls know 3 1st level spells at level 2. You do get your spells 1 level earlier though.
My bad, I could swear the favored soul follows the sorceror spells known.

Still, the angel still knows 52 (you need to count with the domain), and considering 9 of the Favored Soul spells are cantrips versus 3 of the Angel, the diference isn't that big. The angel knows llightly less spells, but knows more higher level spells and progresses faster instead of spontaneous. Plus being able to change domain daily after they get it.
This is fair enough but should demonstrate that the casting is comparable to the bottom of tier 2 and not cleric.

Quote
While it is possible to use the SLAs while dumping CHA you do lose access to some of them.

Honestly, add Cha to attack and damage and swap the casting to Cha and the class becomes perfectly workable. I honestly wouldn't drop anything at the same time and you will probably still be bottom of Tier 2 (which is where you are at the moment.)
You don't lose them, you don't need a minimum Cha score to use your SLAs.
Inneffectual DC is pretty much the same as losing access to them.

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Plus, the angel was never suposed to be a nuker/battlefield controler. Your first offensive SLA is Holy Smite at level 7, and that's hardly a top offensive spell. Your next one is blade barrier at 11th level, that isn't that hot either. Prismatic spray is random at best, earthquake has fixed DCs anyway. Mass Charm monster at level 15 is finally something that may count as something you may want to use offensively regularly, but then your racial ability score bonuses will have started to kick in and you're geting +3 to Wis and +2 to Cha already. Ditto for imprisonment 2 levels later.
If the spell likes are not that good anyway why not base them off Wis? Basically, what is the reason to base off CHA? Specifically forcing people into MAD makes the class less fun to play.

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So yes, I want the angel features to complement each other. Not for you to just pump your Cha to heavens and fly around throwing huge DCs in everything you do while effortestly cuting anything in your path because everything you do is based on said pimped Cha. You've got cleric casting, which means you've got several of the best buffs in the game. They do not need high wisdom scores to work. And your SLAs complement any holes you may have left.
As you said, the SLAs aren't all that hot for BFC so I dont imaging effortlessly cutting through your opponents with holy smite and blade barrier... You probably pumped your WIS because of the bonus spell slots anyway. You might have access to some of the best buffs in the game but nowhere near the variety of a cleric.

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It's a question of quantity really. The monster classes that get both fullcasting and SLAs have already more variety of abilities than any other monster class, not to mention any other abilities in between, so I simply cannot make all their stuff tied to a single ability score, or it wouldn't be fair to the other monster classes here.
I think you are underestimating how bad MAD is, it is one of the prime reasons monk is so bad (monk also has quantity over quality, not that this is anywhere near monk bad.)

It does not need everything tied to one score but why not make the casting Cha based (or the other saves Wis based). There would be little notable increase in power (a couple of + on SLA saves at most) but actually making and playing a character would be more fun.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2012, 04:18:08 PM »
This is fair enough but should demonstrate that the casting is comparable to the bottom of tier 2 and not cleric.
Good. I am trying to keep below pure cleric/wizard/druid/archivist/artificer.

It does not need everything tied to one score but why not make the casting Cha based (or the other saves Wis based). There would be little notable increase in power (a couple of + on SLA saves at most) but actually making and playing a character would be more fun.
Making only the SLAs Wis based does sound fair enough. Changed.

And since I'm in the mood, added a new feat, Battle Angel.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2012, 06:15:40 AM »
Angel now uses Cha for Nat armor so it's useful boosting the stat right away.

New feat, Body of Belief for using Cha for HP instead of Con.

Also boosted the ability score boosts at early levels a little.

Offline Rakoa

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2012, 12:06:47 PM »
I like the changes. I will have to give this class a try sometime.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2012, 12:54:58 AM »
Wow... this seems really, really strong. I'd have to try building a few or playing one to really evaluate it, but it sure doesn't seem like it suffers from MAD in my opinion. Plenty of Cha synergy. I'd expect the spells to mostly be used for things other than offense, so you can just barely keep your Wisdom high enough to cast your highest level spells and due fine, while boosting Cha as your main stat, which you get to basically... everything.
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Offline Rakoa

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2012, 08:02:12 AM »
If I understand the way the class works correctly, as far as spellcasting goes, you can have 11 wisdom at first level and hit 19 wisdom at level 17 to cast level 9 spells through the stat boosts throughout the class and the ones you receive at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th. So really, you can afford to just focus on Str and Cha, though the spell DCs will suffer slightly.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 08:04:52 AM by Rakoa »
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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2012, 09:51:14 AM »
I'll also point out that Lesser protective aura grants a resistance bonus to saves (so doesn't stack with classic cloak of resistance), and only against evil creatures since it's based on greater magic circle. So you're geting Cha to attack and damage rolls with a couple weapons (neither of which is a spiked chain or some other fancy exotic weapon), nat armor, and HP with a feat.

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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2012, 10:07:36 AM »
Yes, I would say the class is looking good to me.
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Re: Angel (planetar/solar)
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2012, 11:20:37 PM »
Sketch of a build:

Cleric 1/Angel 19
1) Exotic Caster (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=327.0)
3) Body of Belief
6) Battle Angel
9) Initiate of Mystra
12) Dynamic Priest
15) Flyby Attack
18) Craft Continent Spell

Cha for Cleric Casting, ton of SLA/s, Attack/Damage/HP
Quickened casting

Cool and quite powerful.  Like a cleric, but better (at low levels).  At high levels you trade out overpowered prestige classes for an overpowered monster class.  A fair trade.

Level < 9 =>
Angel + 1 level cleric dip + Exotic Casting feat >> Cleric

Afterwards it is probably comparable.

Also a great multi threat:
- Cleric casting
- Initiate of mystra (Anyspell / Greater Anyspell) + Miracle + Divine Messenger.  Spend a feat on Apprentice (Spellcaster) for UMD w/ Cha focus and you could pinch-hit for an Arcane caster as well.  Very feat-hungery, however.
- Pinch hit for a front liner as well, with DR, great HP, full BAB

Best,
David

P.S.  Edit: It occurs to me that Dynamic Priest may be first level only, in which case the order of feats might need to be flipped.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 03:57:36 AM by DavidWL »