First item up for discussion: There are two templates from web enhancements that no longer appear to be available (Chosen of Deneir and Jordain-Born). Are they worth tracking down and if so does anyone know where they are?
How detailed do you plan on making this guide, eventually? You already have a TON of reference material here and a lot of work was represented... but are you going to, say, add the LAs for playable ones? Highlight particularly good ones? Any other information?
Either way, it's going to be a huge project
Are you including the various 2nd party books? Athas, Planescape, Dragonlance, that sort of thing?
First item up for discussion: There are two templates from web enhancements that no longer appear to be available (Chosen of Deneir and Jordain-Born). Are they worth tracking down and if so does anyone know where they are?
I've tracked down both templates. They are on ww2.wizards.com, which can be found with Google but is labelled as "untrusted" because WotC doesn't have certificates for them.
They can be found here (https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx?doc=fr_deneir) and here (https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx?doc=fr_jordain). Google has a cache of them, too: Chosen of Deneir (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ao3NL83HCQcJ:https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx%3Fdoc%3Dfr_deneir+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a) and Jordain-Born (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:foNFGEvcBQ0J:https://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx%3Fdoc%3Dfr_jordain+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a).
Template | Source | Old Type | New Type | Subtype | LA | CR | Size | Stat Changes | Grants SLAs | Other Prereqs |
Duh | Duh | Type prereq | What you become | Gained, if any | Duh | Duh | Change, if any | If any | Y/N | If any |
Tier information, maybe? Kind of like the old Tier List for Templates. Just a quick number code for everything from "this is overpowered nonsense" to "this is worth its LA" to "this is worth its LA only if buyoff is allowed" to "this isn't worth its LA" to "you should never take this if you want to live".It's easy enough to do the usual 4 color scheme (red/black/blue/green) to denote terrible/blah/good/broken. Though you wouldn't be able to sort on that.
I think what most people use the handbooks here for is to make a PC quickly, and knowing which templates are worth writing on your character sheet would be the most useful information possible. A list of all templates would be handy, but a list of PC-worthy templates would be even handier.
Tier information, maybe? Kind of like the old Tier List for Templates. Just a quick number code for everything from "this is overpowered nonsense" to "this is worth its LA" to "this is worth its LA only if buyoff is allowed" to "this isn't worth its LA" to "you should never take this if you want to live".It's easy enough to do the usual 4 color scheme (red/black/blue/green) to denote terrible/blah/good/broken. Though you wouldn't be able to sort on that.
I think what most people use the handbooks here for is to make a PC quickly, and knowing which templates are worth writing on your character sheet would be the most useful information possible. A list of all templates would be handy, but a list of PC-worthy templates would be even handier.
Tier information, maybe? Kind of like the old Tier List for Templates. Just a quick number code for everything from "this is overpowered nonsense" to "this is worth its LA" to "this is worth its LA only if buyoff is allowed" to "this isn't worth its LA" to "you should never take this if you want to live".It's easy enough to do the usual 4 color scheme (red/black/blue/green) to denote terrible/blah/good/broken. Though you wouldn't be able to sort on that.
I think what most people use the handbooks here for is to make a PC quickly, and knowing which templates are worth writing on your character sheet would be the most useful information possible. A list of all templates would be handy, but a list of PC-worthy templates would be even handier.
Maybe if we did a table for each color?
Also: If I'm making suggestions for taking PC templates wouldn't I need to do it by class?
Also: If I'm making suggestions for taking PC templates wouldn't I need to do it by class?
Maybe a single line that goes something like "Suggested class: Warlock" (for example).That doesn't really solve the problem of stratification.
The problem with rating templates is that some will be better than others for various things, and it is VERY difficult to denote these things without tripling the size of the table. Bare minimum would require three columns with a 1-5 rating in each: one for Melee, Caster, and Skilled.
Template | Source | Old Type | New Type | Subtype | LA | CR | Size | Stat Changes | SLAs? | AL | Other Prereqs | Other |
Abomination Dragonspawn | BoK p26 | H, MH | MH | (as creator) | +1 | 0 | - | -4 Int, -4 Wis | - | - | Dragonspawn Template | Roll for Mutation Benefits |
Acidborn Monster | Dung p111 | An, MB, P, V | -/MB | (augmented) | - | +1 | - | +4 Con | - | - | Living, corporeal, [aquatic] | |
Air Element Creature | MoP p191 | Ab, An, MB, P, V | E | Air | - | Var | - | +6 Dex | - | Usually N | Corporeal | 3.0 Material |
Anarchic Creature | MoP p198 | Special | - | Chaotic | - | Var | - | - | - | Always C | Corporeal, native to the Material plane | 3.0 Material |
Ankholian Undead | BoK p121 | U | - | - | +3 | +2 | - | +4 Str/Cha | - | Any E | Corporeal | |
Axiomatic Creature | MoP p197 | Special | - | Lawful | - | Var | - | - | - | Always L | Corporeal, native to the Material plane | 3.0 Material |
Bloodrager | BoK p78 | An, MB, V | MB | - | +2 | Var | - | +4 Str/Con, -2 Wis | - | Always E | - | |
Child of the Sea | BoK p40 | H | F | Aquatic | +2 | +1 | - | +2 Con, -2 Cha | Y | - | Non-aquatic | |
Cold Element Creature | MoP p195 | Ab, An, MB, P, V | E | Cold | - | Var | - | - | - | Usually N | Corporeal | 3.0 Material |
Dark Thrall of Onysablet | BoK p80 | Special | - | - | +3 | +2 | - | +2 Str/Dex/Con | - | Always CE | Male human/elf/ogre | |
Death Knight of Krynn | DCS p212 | H | U | - | +5 | Var | - | +4 Str, +2 Wis/Cha | Y | Always E | 6+ HD | |
Dragon Vassal | BoK p29 | G, H, MH | MH | (elemental) | +2 | +1 | - | +8 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con | - | - | - | |
Dragonspawn | DCS p222 | H, MH | MH | (as creator) | Var | Var | - | Var | - | - | Corporeal, between small & large | Cast as 1st level Sorcerer |
Dungeonbred Monster | Dung p112 | Ab, An, MB, V | - | - | - | 0 | -1 | +4 Str/Con | - | - | Living, corporeal, large+ | |
Earth Element Creature | MoP p192 | Ab, An, MB, P, V | E | Earth | - | Var | - | +2 Str, -2 Dex | - | Usually N | Corporeal | 3.0 Material |
Fire Element Creature | MoP p193 | Ab, An, MB, P, V | E | Fire | - | Var | - | - | - | Usually N | Corporeal | 3.0 Material |
Forestmaster | BoK p83 | MB, An | - | - | 0 | +3 | - | +2 Str/Con, +4 Int/Wis/Cha | Y | Always N | If animal, awakened | Cast as a Druid of your HD |
Guardian Monster | Dung p113 | Ab, An, MB, V | -/MB | (augmented) | - | +1 | - | +4 Wis, -2 Cha | - | - | Living, corporeal, Int 3- | |
Gurik Cha'ahl | BoK p46 | Special | - | - | +1 | +1 | - | +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha | - | - | Goblinoid Subtype | |
Half-Elemental | MoP p188 | Any | Ou | - | - | +2 | - | Var | Y | - | Corporeal, Int 4+ | 3.0 Material |
Hivenest Monster | Dung p115 | C, P, U, V | - | - | - | Var | - | - | - | - | Special | |
Petitioner | MoP p199 | Any | Ou | - | - | +1 | - | - | - | - | - | 3.0 Material |
Proto-Creature | BoK p89 | Ab, D, G, H, MB, MH, Oz, U | - | - | 0 | Var | +2/+1/0 | +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha | - | One step towards C | Corporeal | |
Pseudonatural Creature | MoP p212 | Any | Ou | - | - | Var | - | - | - | - | Corporeal | 3.0 Material |
Sacred Guardian | BoK p92 | C | - | Augmented, (aligned) | 0 | +2 | - | +4 Str/Dex/Wis/Cha | - | - | Non-intelligent | |
Sea Dragonspawn | BoK p29 | H, MH | MH | (as creator) | +2 | +2 | - | +6 Str, +4 Con/Cha, +2 Wis | - | - | Corporeal, between small & large | Cast as 1st level Sorcerer |
Sentry Ooze | Dung p114 | Oz | - | - | - | +2 | - | +6 Dex, +2 Int, +1 Wis/Cha | - | - | Living, corporeal, no Int | |
Shadow Creature | MoP p190 | Any | MB | - | - | +1 | - | - | - | - | Corporeal | 3.0 Material |
Skeletal Warrior | DCS p229 | H | U | - | - | +1 | - | +2 Str | - | Always NE | 3+ HD | |
Skorenoi | BoK p96 | F, H, MH | MH | Chaotic | Var | Var | - | +4 Str, +2 Dex/Con | - | Always CE | Corporeal, possess bestial traits | |
Spectral Minion | DCS p230 | G, H, MH | U | Incorporeal | - | +1 | - | +4 Dex | - | - | - | |
Tainted-Blood | BoK p98 | Ab, F, G, H, MH | MH | - | +1 | Var | - | +2 Str, +4 Con | - | Always CE | - | |
Water Element Creature | MoP p194 | Ab, An, MB, P, V | E | Water | - | Var | - | - | - | Usually N | Corporeal | 3.0 Material |
Wichtlin | BoK p132 | Special | U | Augmented | +4 | +2 | - | +4 Dex/Cha, -4 Int | Y | Always NE | Elf/Half-elf/Animal Companion | |
Wood Element Creature | MoP p196 | Ab, An, MB, V | P | - | - | Var | - | - | - | Usually N | Corporeal | 3.0 Material |
I added the SLA/casting thingie because asking what templates provide them seem to be popular questions.I agree that that's a popular question. But I'm just not sure what people are actually getting out of a generic "yes," rather than a more specific "this template gives you X and Y and Z." Can anyone clarify this for me?
Oh and I like where you're going with the template for te moment fire. Let me collate all the necessary data in the main thread and then we can table it. I'm finding lots of mistakes I made as I go alongCool. I'll keep working on it then. I'm just working off of the master list you posted, and checking the sources myself. (I don't have all of the books, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.)
Second option: Maybe divide it into two tables, one for stuff that most temlates would have, and another for templates that have odd stuff like the casting/SLA'sCertainly one way to go. What do you think about this split:
Template | Source | Old Type | New Type | Subtype | LA | CR | Other Prereqs | Str | Dex | Con | Int | Wis | Cha |
Abomination Dragonspawn | BoK p26 | H, MH | MH | (as creator) | +1 | 0 | Dragonspawn Template | -4 | -4 | ||||
Acidborn Monster | Dung p111 | An, MB, P, V | -/MB | (augmented) | - | +1 | Living, corporeal, [aquatic] | +4 | |||||
Air Element Creature | MoP p191 | Ab, An, MB, P, V | E | Air | - | Var | Corporeal | +6 | |||||
Anarchic Creature | MoP p198 | Special | - | Chaotic | - | Var | Corporeal, native to the Material plane | ||||||
Ankholian Undead | BoK p121 | U | - | - | +3 | +2 | Corporeal | +4 | +4 | ||||
Axiomatic Creature | MoP p197 | Special | - | Lawful | - | Var | Corporeal, native to the Material plane | ||||||
Bloodrager | BoK p78 | An, MB, V | MB | - | +2 | Var | - | +4 | +4 | -2 | |||
Child of the Sea | BoK p40 | H | F | Aquatic | +2 | +1 | Non-aquatic | +2 | -2 | ||||
Cold Element Creature | MoP p195 | Ab, An, MB, P, V | E | Cold | - | Var | Corporeal | ||||||
Dark Thrall of Onysablet | BoK p80 | Special | - | - | +3 | +2 | Male human/elf/ogre | +2 | +2 | +2 | |||
Death Knight of Krynn | DCS p212 | H | U | - | +5 | Var | 6+ HD | +4 | +2 | +2 | |||
Dragon Vassal | BoK p29 | G, H, MH | MH | (elemental) | +2 | +1 | - | +8 | +4 | +6 | |||
Dragonspawn | DCS p222 | H, MH | MH | (as creator) | Var | Var | Corporeal, between small & large | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? |
Dungeonbred Monster | Dung p112 | Ab, An, MB, V | - | - | - | 0 | Living, corporeal, large+ | +4 | +4 | ||||
Earth Element Creature | MoP p192 | Ab, An, MB, P, V | E | Earth | - | Var | Corporeal | +2 | -2 | ||||
Fire Element Creature | MoP p193 | Ab, An, MB, P, V | E | Fire | - | Var | Corporeal | ||||||
Forestmaster | BoK p83 | MB, An | - | - | 0 | +3 | If animal, awakened | +2 | +2 | +4 | +4 | +4 | |
Guardian Monster | Dung p113 | Ab, An, MB, V | -/MB | (augmented) | - | +1 | Living, corporeal, Int 3- | +4 | -2 | ||||
Gurik Cha'ahl | BoK p46 | Special | - | - | +1 | +1 | Goblinoid Subtype | +4 | +2 | -2 | |||
Half-Elemental | MoP p188 | Any | Ou | - | - | +2 | Corporeal, Int 4+ | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? |
Hivenest Monster | Dung p115 | C, P, U, V | - | - | - | Var | Special | ||||||
Petitioner | MoP p199 | Any | Ou | - | - | +1 | - | ||||||
Proto-Creature | BoK p89 | Ab, D, G, H, MB, MH, Oz, U | - | - | 0 | Var | Corporeal | +4 | +2 | -2 | -4 | ||
Pseudonatural Creature | MoP p212 | Any | Ou | - | - | Var | Corporeal | ||||||
Sacred Guardian | BoK p92 | C | - | Augmented, (aligned) | 0 | +2 | Non-intelligent | +4 | +4 | +4 | +4 | ||
Sea Dragonspawn | BoK p29 | H, MH | MH | (as creator) | +2 | +2 | Corporeal, between small & large | +6 | +4 | +2 | +4 | ||
Sentry Ooze | Dung p114 | Oz | - | - | - | +2 | Living, corporeal, no Int | +6 | +2 | +1 | +1 | ||
Shadow Creature | MoP p190 | Any | MB | - | - | +1 | Corporeal | ||||||
Skeletal Warrior | DCS p229 | H | U | - | - | +1 | 3+ HD | +2 | |||||
Skorenoi | BoK p96 | F, H, MH | MH | Chaotic | Var | Var | Corporeal, possess bestial traits | +4 | +2 | +2 | |||
Spectral Minion | DCS p230 | G, H, MH | U | Incorporeal | - | +1 | - | +4 | |||||
Tainted-Blood | BoK p98 | Ab, F, G, H, MH | MH | - | +1 | Var | - | +2 | +4 | ||||
Water Element Creature | MoP p194 | Ab, An, MB, P, V | E | Water | - | Var | Corporeal | ||||||
Wichtlin | BoK p132 | Special | U | Augmented | +4 | +2 | Elf/Half-elf/Animal Companion | +4 | -4 | +4 | |||
Wood Element Creature | MoP p196 | Ab, An, MB, V | P | - | - | Var | Corporeal |
Template | Source | SLAs? | AL | Size | Other |
Abomination Dragonspawn | BoK p26 | - | - | - | Roll for Mutation Benefits |
Acidborn Monster | Dung p111 | - | - | - | |
Air Element Creature | MoP p191 | - | Usually N | - | 3.0 Material |
Anarchic Creature | MoP p198 | - | Always C | - | 3.0 Material |
Ankholian Undead | BoK p121 | - | Any E | - | |
Axiomatic Creature | MoP p197 | - | Always L | - | 3.0 Material |
Bloodrager | BoK p78 | - | Always E | - | |
Child of the Sea | BoK p40 | Y | - | - | |
Cold Element Creature | MoP p195 | - | Usually N | - | 3.0 Material |
Dark Thrall of Onysablet | BoK p80 | - | Always CE | - | |
Death Knight of Krynn | DCS p212 | Y | Always E | - | |
Dragon Vassal | BoK p29 | - | - | - | |
Dragonspawn | DCS p222 | - | - | - | Cast as 1st level Sorcerer |
Dungeonbred Monster | Dung p112 | - | - | -1 | |
Earth Element Creature | MoP p192 | - | Usually N | - | 3.0 Material |
Fire Element Creature | MoP p193 | - | Usually N | - | 3.0 Material |
Forestmaster | BoK p83 | Y | Always N | - | Cast as a Druid of your HD |
Guardian Monster | Dung p113 | - | - | - | |
Gurik Cha'ahl | BoK p46 | - | - | - | |
Half-Elemental | MoP p188 | Y | - | - | 3.0 Material |
Hivenest Monster | Dung p115 | - | - | - | |
Petitioner | MoP p199 | - | - | - | 3.0 Material |
Proto-Creature | BoK p89 | - | One step towards C | +2/+1/0 | |
Pseudonatural Creature | MoP p212 | - | - | - | 3.0 Material |
Sacred Guardian | BoK p92 | - | - | - | |
Sea Dragonspawn | BoK p29 | - | - | - | Cast as 1st level Sorcerer |
Sentry Ooze | Dung p114 | - | - | - | |
Shadow Creature | MoP p190 | - | - | - | 3.0 Material |
Skeletal Warrior | DCS p229 | - | Always NE | - | |
Skorenoi | BoK p96 | - | Always CE | - | |
Spectral Minion | DCS p230 | - | - | - | |
Tainted-Blood | BoK p98 | - | Always CE | - | |
Water Element Creature | MoP p194 | - | Usually N | - | 3.0 Material |
Wichtlin | BoK p132 | Y | Always NE | - | |
Wood Element Creature | MoP p196 | - | Usually N | - | 3.0 Material |
How many variations on the Pseudonatural Template are there? I notice the one from Epic is a helluva lot nastier than the one from complete arcane...Pretty sure those two are it. While they are related, I think that they are supposed to be two different templates. Lords of Madness reprinted the Complete Arcane version.
Where were they updated at?
Also it appears I may be getting sued by the state of ohio...I'm hoping I can work something out without losing all my stuff.:bigeyes :hug
Sorry it's taking so long guys. There's a lotta stuff to go through.I've also been slacking on my offer of help. Hopefully I'll get a chance to work on that table some more soon.
I figured you were waiting on me since you didn't have all the books :D
I've almost got the major books done (phew)!
Then it's a quick slog through the magazines and web content before asking people if there's other stuff they want included (Athas, Ravenloft, etc).
Does anyone perchance have lists of the appropriate books??
I have requests for Planewalker.com, is anyone familiar with them?
I found a few element creature templates, a half-fey variant, and some Planetouched, but their site displays a little wonky. Is that all they have for templates?
Poring over this for useful cheese :flutter
I wanna go
Dragon --> add template X --> add template Y --> Humanoid or Animal that can bear live young
... because I haven't found one that can do it in one step like
Dragon --> add template X --> Humanoid or Animal.
I have found Ravenloft's errata (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/TheVault/RL_Errata.html).
Any thoughts on how I should rate templates? A lot of them are pretty lopsided. As in "this is awesome if you're pursuing option x, but total shit otherwise".
One of these days, when I'm feeling more motivated (which is a hint that it'd be awesome for someone else to do this), I want to put all of these into a sortable table.
Fixed Quorbred, found the errata for Monster of Legend and redid it. I used the srd for doing the epic level templates, and it listed no LA for paragon. I looked in the book, and it doesnt either. Page 156 lists CR.
WIll address the other two concerns later tonight.
Also you can become an elemental for +0 LA as far as I know only by being an Aberration, Animal, Magical Beast, Plant, or Vermin, and then taking one of Elemental Creature Templates from Manual of the Planes.
Yes but that page is borked. As an example in the Mercane entry it says it's ECL 7. Looking at their entry a Mercane has a +7 LA, and 7 HD, which should put them at ECL 14. It's not even fixed entirely in the errata, as critters have a fairly low or high ECL that seems entirely independent on what they can do (and Mercanes are still ECL 7). Looking through threads people are claiming it 'should' be anywhere from +8 to +30, but I can't seem to find an official answer.QuoteAlso you can become an elemental for +0 LA as far as I know only by being an Aberration, Animal, Magical Beast, Plant, or Vermin, and then taking one of Elemental Creature Templates from Manual of the Planes.
Was there a template I listed that has a wrong LA you're specifically referencing?
I already have Half-ELementtal listed as +3.
Seems I never added Chosen of Deneir to my lists and my link to Jordain-Born appears broken too.
Googling them I kept getting redirected to a page telling me the WotC site was under repairs though so maybe that's it.
I understand how much work this is. Any word on getting this into tabular format? It will make the data suddenly very, very useful..xls?
Anyone here have experience with Open Office? I'm using it to mimic Excel, but there's an issue. When I type "+1" into a cell, it changes to "1". How do I get it to stop that?