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Creative Corner => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Topic started by: FireInTheSky on January 11, 2012, 09:46:21 PM

Title: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 11, 2012, 09:46:21 PM
***Version 3.5*** (discussion for this version starts here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2759.msg69037#msg69037))

SNIPER

(https://i.imgur.com/OEs4VIf.jpg)
Photo Credit: Zarory (https://www.deviantart.com/zarory/art/Blood-Paradise-724703249) (deviantart)

”One Shot, One Kill”
            -Famous Sniper Axiom

A Wisdom-based Archer.

MAKING A SNIPER
Abilities: Wis>Dex>Con=Int>Str=Cha
Races: Any.
Alignment: Any.
Starting Gold: as Rogue.

Class Skills
The Sniper's class skills are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Geography, Nature)(Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6+IntMod)x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6+IntMod

Hit Die: d8



Level
Base
Attack Bonus
Fort
Save
Ref
Save
Will
Save

Special
1st+0+0+2+0Aim, Precise Shot, Trackless Step
2nd+1+0+3+0Close Quarters Ranged Combat, Light Step, Rangefinder, Trick Shot
3rd+2+1+3+1Keen Perception, Light Step (Spider Climb), Practiced Shooter
4th+3+1+4+1Rangefinder, Trick Shot
5th+3+1+4+1Fast Aim, Improved Snipe
6th+4+2+5+2Darkstalker, Trick Shot
7th+5+2+5+2Cunning Veil, Light Step (Water Walk)
8th+6/+1+2+6+2Rangefinder, Trick Shot
9th+6/+1+3+6+3Powerful Aim
10th+7/+2+3+7+3Greater Snipe, Trick Shot
11th+8/+3+3+7+3Hide in Plain Sight, Veteran Shooter
12th+9/+4+4+8+4Rangefinder, Trick Shot
13th+9/+4+4+8+4Accelerated Aim
14th+10/+5+4+9+4Light Step (Fly), Trick Shot
15th+11/+6/+1+5+9+5Superior Snipe
16th+12/+7/+2+5+10+5Rangefinder, Trick Shot
17th+12/+7/+2+5+10+5Mighty Aim
18th+13/+8/+3+6+11+6Sudden Aim, Trick Shot
19th+14/+9/+4+6+11+6Fire All
20th+15/+10/+5+6+12+6One Shot Kill, Trick Shot

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Sniper is proficient in all Simple and Martial Weapons, the Hand Crossbow, the Boomerang, the Greatbow, and the Composite Greatbow, and with Light Armor.

Aim (Ex): When a Sniper uses a full-round action to make a full attack with any ranged weapon (including thrown weapons), she adds her Wisdom Modifier as a bonus to her attack rolls (on top of her Dexterity Modifier). In addition, these attacks each deal 1d4 additional damage for every 2 Sniper levels (rounded up). This damage increase is not considered Precision Damage for the purposes of creature immunities, and it also is multiplied in the case of a successful critical hit. If she does not take a full attack, a Sniper does not gain these bonuses. This ability counts as Point Blank Shot for the purposes of prerequisites.

Precise Shot: A Sniper gains Precise Shot as a bonus feat. In addition, if a Sniper's target is in a grapple, on a successful attack roll, she always hits her target, and does not need to roll to determine which grappler is hit.

Trackless Step (Ex): A Sniper leaves no trail in any surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if she so desires.

Close Quarters Ranged Combat: Snipers trust their lives with their ranged weapons, and have trained to use them in any situation. Beginning at 2nd level, a Sniper does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity by using a ranged weapon in melee.

Light Step (Ex/SpL): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties. In addition, she may move at her full speed with no penalty to Hide or Move Silently, and only takes a -10 penalty while running or charging. At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb once per day per Sniper level, with a caster level equal to her class level. At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk once per day per two Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, she gains Climb and Swim speeds equal to half her base speed. At 14th level, a Sniper can use Fly once per day per three Sniper levels, except with a duration of 10 minutes per level, and with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, her Climb and Swim speeds increase to be the same as her base speed, and she takes no penalty to Hide and Move Silently while running or charging. Uses of Spider Climb, Water Walk, and Fly may target willing allies in addition to the Sniper, and are spell-like abilities. All other benefits of Light Step are extraordinary.

Rangefinder (Ex): Shots at any range may be attempted; a ranged weapon's maximum range limit does not apply to a Sniper. At 4th level, the range increment of all ranged attacks is doubled. For example, a longbow's range increment becomes 200 feet instead of 100, a -2 penalty applies from 200 to 400 feet, and so on. At 8th level, the range increment is tripled, and at 12th level, the range increment is quadrupled. 
  At 16th level, a sniper may attack anyone she can see with no range penalty, and no maximum range. This does not allow a Sniper to attack between planes (i.e. Scry to another plane), ignore Cover or Concealment, or shoot through solid objects without the appropriate Trick Shots.
 
Trick Shot: Starting at 2nd level, and again at every even level after that, a Sniper may select a Trick Shot from the list below.

Keen Perception: Beginning at 3rd level, a Sniper adds 1/2 of her Sniper level as an Insight bonus to her Listen and Spot checks.

Practiced Shooter (Ex): By 3rd level, a Sniper has put enough practice shots downrange to know how best to conserve ammunition. All non-magical ammunition from a failed attack is recoverable. In addition, magical ammunition from a failed attack has a 75% chance of being recoverable.

Fast Aim (Ex): At 5th level, a Sniper may make a single ranged attack with her Aim bonuses as a Standard Action.

Improved Snipe (Ex): At 5th level, a Sniper who has successfully Hidden may make a single ranged attack and then immediately Hide at a -10 penalty. A full attack incurs a -20 penalty as normal.

Darkstalker: A Sniper who reaches 6th level gains Darkstalker as a bonus feat.

Cunning Veil (Ex): A Sniper of 7th level may apply her Wisdom modifier as a bonus to her Hide check.

Powerful Aim (Ex): At 9th level, the damage dice from the Sniper’s Aim ability increase to d6’s.

Greater Snipe (Ex): At 10th level, a Sniper who has successfully Hidden may make a single ranged attack and then immediately Hide at no penalty. In addition, if a Sniper who has successfully hidden uses a full-round action to attack with a ranged weapon, the penalty to the subsequent Hide check is decreased to -10.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): A Sniper of 11th level can use the Hide skill even while being observed. She can hide herself from view in the open, without anything to actually hide behind. 

Veteran Shooter (Ex): At 11th level, all of a Sniper’s ammunition from a missed attack is recoverable. In addition, magical ammunition from a successful attack has a 50% chance of being recoverable. Non-magical ammunition is still destroyed in a successful attack.

Accelerated Aim (Ex): A Sniper of 13th level can make a single ranged attack with her Aim bonuses as a Move Action.

Superior Snipe (Ex): At 15th level, a Sniper who has successfully Hidden may take a full attack action (as long as all are ranged attacks), and then immediately Hide at no penalty.

Mighty Aim (Ex): At 17th level, the damage dice from the Sniper’s Aim ability increase to d8’s.

Sudden Aim (Ex): At 18th level, a Sniper can make one ranged attack with her Aim bonuses as an Immediate Action.

Fire All (Ex): A Sniper of 19th level, once per encounter, may take a Full-Round Action to make a single Aim attack at her highest base attack bonus against all opponents she can see.

One Shot Kill (Su): A Sniper of 20th level has become a master of taking down her targets with a single blow. She may make a single ranged attack, with her Aim bonuses, as a standard action. If this attack hits, it deals damage normally, and the target must make a Fort save or die. The DC for this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the Sniper’s class level + her Wisdom Modifier. The Sniper must declare that she is using this ability before the attack is rolled.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 11, 2012, 09:46:43 PM
Alternate Class Feature: Demoralizing Shot
Replaces: Light Step class feature.
Benefit: At 2nd level, any enemy the Sniper hits with a ranged attack must succeed on a Will Save, DC 10 + 1/2 CL + WisMod, or be Shaken for the next round. In addition, the Sniper gains a +4 bonus to resist Fear effects. At 3rd level, all enemies within 10’ of the target are subject to the same effect (each person rolls their own save). At 7th level, all who would be Shaken on a failed Will save are instead Frightened for the next round, and are unaffected by a successful save. In addition, the Sniper becomes immune to Fear effects. At 14th level, even enemies who are successful on their Will saves are still Shaken for the following round. Also at 14th level, enemies who are immune to Fear effects are affected by this ability, but are only Shaken on a failed save, and suffer no effects on a successful save. If a creature is already affected by a Fear effect of the same strength or greater, these abilities have no effect. All Demoralizing Shot abilities are Supernatural.



Trick Shots
Trick Shot
Distance Marksman
Distracting Attack
Energetic Shot
Lights Out
Martial Shot
Oh, Were You Walking There?
Penetrating Shot
Sharp Focus
   Called Shot
   Critical Shot
   Deadeye Shot
   Dread Shot
   Weak Spot
Sneak Attack
Stay Riiiight There
Thread the Needle
   Skip Shot
      Dimensional Shot
         Improved Dimensional Shot
           Perfect Dimensional Shot
      Phase Shot
Two Birds With One Arrow
Vital Shot
Whites of Their Eyes
   Double Jeopardy
      And Your Little Dog Too
You Don’t Need That
Prerequisites
Precision Damage from Class Feature
-
BAB +8
-
Sniper Level 4
-
-
-
Sharp Focus
Sharp Focus
Sharp Focus
BAB +5, Demoralizing Shot ACF, Sharp Focus
Sharp Focus
-
-
-
Thread the Needle
Skip Shot, BAB +8
Dimensional Shot, BAB +10
Improved Dimensional Shot, Sniper Level 16
Skip Shot, BAB +8
-
Precision Damage from Class Feature
-
Whites of Their Eyes
Double Jeopardy
-
Description
Increase Precision Damage Range
Flank From Distance
Ranged Attacks Count As Energy Types
Make a Ranged Stunning Attack
Martial Study adapted for Sniper
Make a Ranged Trip Attack
Ignore Damage Reduction
Increase Critical Threat Range
Auto-Threaten Crits
Crit Normally Immune Creatures
Increase Critical Multiplier
Increase Critical Multiplier vs. Frightened Creatures
Normal Attacks Become Touch Attacks
Increase Sneak Attack Damage
Make a Ranged Grapple Attempt
Ignore Cover, Lower Miss Chance
Ignore Total Cover
Ignore Force Effects, Attack Incorporeal
Attack Ethereal
Attack Across Planes
Shoot Through Solid Objects
Hit Multiple Targets With One Attack
Auto Sneak Attack
Threaten Squares With Ranged Weapon
Threaten Targets At Range
Threaten Squares At Range
Make a Ranged Disarm Attempt

(click to show/hide)



Sniper Feats
Feat
Alert Reaction
   Improved Alert Reaction
Extra Trick
Insightful Action
Pinpoint Aim
Studied Killer
Prerequisites
-
Combat Reflexes, BAB +8
Trick Shot Class Feature
Improved Initiative
Precise Shot
Int 16, Aim Class Feature
Description
# of Attacks of Opportunity = WisMod
Make Multiple AoO’s Against the Same Target
Learn an Additional Trick Shot
Add 1/2 x WisMod to Initiative Roll
Ignore size modifiers
Replace WisMod with IntMod for all Sniper CFs

(click to show/hide)

*Suggestions for other Feats or Trick Shots are welcome.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on February 15, 2012, 08:26:35 PM
Pretty awesome one level dip, trackless step and not slowed by terrain? Not too powerful, but makes the dip pretty much mandatory for any scout/skirmisher type in a campaign that such things actually matter in.

And the progression of light step is interesting (though limited /day uses blow, especially for high level of abilities) but don't make much sense with the rest of the class.

Untyped permanent dex boost solely from levels in base class, stacking with and at twice the rate you get them from character levels, and the first one kicks in when you're gaining +1 dex anyway??? Not really the standard realm of class abilities...

Ranged Sneak Attack is... Well, the 16th level wording is problematic... As because it is a specific class ability, it technically could be read to allow you to bypass sneak attack immunities. And the stepping for it seems kind of odd, jumping from potentially less than two range increments up to any distance... Base it on range increments, with the first boost lifting it to one range increment.



Overall this will suffer from all the main problems with fighter, is overspecialized, and doesn't prevent interesting options in combat; there's not even an actual bonus to sniping anywhere in the class.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: dman11235 on February 15, 2012, 09:36:43 PM
Yeah, I'm gonna echo Ejo on the dex thing and the SA thing.  Try having the range be at 1 range increment.  As for the dex, just get rid of it, that sort of thing doesn't belong in a class.  Figure out what you want the dex to apply to, and boost that.

This class is too specialized as is.  It would work better as a rogue PrC.

Now, I need to adress the ranged sneak attack problem: ranged attacks with SA suck.  Period.  You can only get one attack per round, as you need to be hidden to get the bonus.  In order to get that one attack/round, you need to be hidden, attack, then use the sniping hiding rules, which applies a -20(!) penalty to the hide attempt.  So here's what needs to happen: either a class focused on ranged sneak attacks needs to do a LOT of damage (a full-attack's worth) with a single attack and a boost to the hiding ability (or other method of increasing likelyhood of getting it on subsequent turns), or they need an ability that lets them get the bonus on every attack in the round (Greater Manyshot does do this).  For a sniper, I'd lean towards the single powerful shot, a la the sniper variant of the scout (though make it better).
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: RobbyPants on February 16, 2012, 08:50:27 AM
I'll third the suggestion of removing the flat Dex bonus. This is half a flavor thing (this sort of thing isn't typical for a base class) and half for game reasons (You shouldn't need huge RNG boosts like this).

I don't mind the Sneak Attack ranges so long as it's spelled out that you still have to meet the other requirements for Sneak Attack.

I'd suggest throwing in some other SLAs as well. Freedom of Movement could be a very nice one to have.

Personally, I think Hide in Plain Sight should be available somewhat earlier, given what the class does. Also, you may want to grant some sort of improved sniping ability at low level (by level 3 or so). Perhaps reduce the Hide penalty for sniping down form -20 to -10, or something. Perhaps remove it all together.

Also, you could consider adding Knowledge (The Planes) to their skill list. This is more of a personal preference of mine, but I tend to see Knowledge (The Planes) as sort of the "epic" version of Knowledge (Nature). By "epic" I mean that by 9th level, the party will likely have access to Plane Shift and Teleport, so the game feels kinda epic by that point, and what seems "natural" to the group fundamentally changes. Again, this is more of a personal preference on my part.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: dman11235 on February 16, 2012, 09:15:14 AM
My problem (and I think Ejo's as well) with the Sneak Attack ranges for this class was how poorly paced it was.  It went every 5 levels double, double, INFINITE.  That why we both suggested a range increment dependent one, so at level 1 (for a class like this, level 1 would be important) it would be out to 1 increment, then at level x it's 2, then at 2x it's 3 increments, etc.  This makes it so that at level 1 you already have an imporved range capacity on the SA, and it goes up steadily, up to a max of you entire range increment set at 20 (5 increments, I'm thinking at every multiple of 5 level you get the boost).

As for the SLAs...why?  I'm thinking at this point, you might as well start setting out a spell list.  or rather just give (ex) abilities that mimic these spells, if only to boost the power.  I've got two things for the author of this class to check out, two things that I've made that already do these sorts of things (snipe, the movement thing).  Well, one.  But I can describe the other, until I actually post it on these boards.  My  (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3216.0), for the movement aspect, and my Deepwood Sniper and Scout sniper variant.  The scout sniper variant I made had the scout not move and make a single attack as a standard actoin to get +1d6/class level, as long as you were more than 30' away.  You'll note that it's 1d6/level, not /3 levels, and that I right away make it a "use this from long ranges" deal.  The Deepwood Sniper adds a sniping bonus, by taking a move action to aim, and then gradually removes the penalty for hiding after a ranged attack.  It also makes single attacks more power, increasing crit probability and damage.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: RobbyPants on February 16, 2012, 10:04:45 AM
My problem (and I think Ejo's as well) with the Sneak Attack ranges for this class was how poorly paced it was.  It went every 5 levels double, double, INFINITE.  That why we both suggested a range increment dependent one, so at level 1 (for a class like this, level 1 would be important) it would be out to 1 increment, then at level x it's 2, then at 2x it's 3 increments, etc.  This makes it so that at level 1 you already have an imporved range capacity on the SA, and it goes up steadily, up to a max of you entire range increment set at 20 (5 increments, I'm thinking at every multiple of 5 level you get the boost).
Well, it's not functionally infinite. You still have a maximum range on your bow (with a -20 penalty to hit!) and rules for Spot checks and distances, but it could work by just adding distances or range increments in some fashion.

I just don't have a problem with it because it's 16th level. Casters can totally out pace that type of ability while actively trying not to pull out any of the stops.


As for the SLAs...why?  I'm thinking at this point, you might as well start setting out a spell list.  or rather just give (ex) abilities that mimic these spells, if only to boost the power.
Any of those could work. The idea was just to fill in some gaps in capability, and also some new dead levels if the +2 Dex abilities are removed.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: dman11235 on February 16, 2012, 11:01:12 AM
I know, I was being a tad hyperbolic.  But the point remains that up until then you are still effectively capped at 1 range increment.  You have 60 feet at level 6, and 120 at level 11, as a sniper.  So you basically aren't a sniper as a Sniper until you get to level 11, and aren't a good (re: long range) one until level 16.  60' is only 20 yards, btw.  That's nothing.  40 isn't much either.  Modern day small arms are capable of being accurate at 20 yards, easily.

On the SLAs, that "why" was more directed at the author, not you, sorry for the confusion.  I agree with you on that front.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: RobbyPants on February 16, 2012, 11:10:57 AM
I know, I was being a tad hyperbolic.  But the point remains that up until then you are still effectively capped at 1 range increment.  You have 60 feet at level 6, and 120 at level 11, as a sniper.  So you basically aren't a sniper as a Sniper until you get to level 11, and aren't a good (re: long range) one until level 16.  60' is only 20 yards, btw.  That's nothing.  40 isn't much either.  Modern day small arms are capable of being accurate at 20 yards, easily.
I guess we could focus on what actually happens in games.

In my experience, extreme range encounters are quite rare, and often are set up deliberately from one side or the other. It seems that most fights are within the first two range increments of an archer's bow. It's certainly true that you could theoretically set up a situation where you get a thousand feet away and then perforate the opposition (especially with Air Walk), I'm not sure how much it actually comes up.

I see your point about the stark jump, but really, casters get some pretty stark jumps too, when they get new spell levels available (particularly 3rd to 4th level spells).
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: dman11235 on February 16, 2012, 11:40:58 AM
Actually, I rarely see encounter beyond 60', and most happen within 30, especially when one character uses precision damage.  But what I was saying about ranges was more a RL spin on things.  A 100 yard shot is a decent length, but hardly difficult, and begins the sniping range.  20 yards (the 60 feet) is nothing for small arms, and pistols are really hard to aim.  Now, since this is for precision, not just hitting, things get more complicated.  But still, I think that for a class called a Sniper, not being able to hit hard from further than 30' away is a problem, and having to wait until level 11 to get a full range increment for a primary class feature to be featured is just ridiculous.  Casters, well, yeah they get a jump every other level, but I find that that's a problem as well.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: RobbyPants on February 16, 2012, 12:51:29 PM
Oh. I was totally mis-reading your intent. Yeah, ranged SA should improve at a lower level. That is for sure.

Given the first 1d6 comes at 2nd level, that seems like a good level to improve the range (to a minimum of 60 feet, but possibly out to the first increment). It makes the class semi-dippable, but I don't have a huge problem with that.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: sirpercival on February 16, 2012, 12:57:00 PM
In terms of a single massive-damage shot (like a modern-day sniper), how about increasing the critical multiplier in steps?

It also might be interesting to take this idea in a completely different direction.  Being a sniper is all about patience and biding your time, setting up the perfect shot with the perfect timing.  That sounds like more Int or Wis than Dex.  How about, instead of turning this into a variant rogue or scout, you make it a Wisdom-based archery class?

Class feature ideas:
~Zen Archery as a bonus feat at level 1
~Make Concentration checks to increase the critical multiplier on a given attack (EDIT: Or Spot, since this is Wisdom-based)
~Give 4-level spellcasting like a ranger (maybe just use the Ranger list), make sure they get Hunter's Mercy because it's necessary
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on February 16, 2012, 07:17:59 PM
just give (ex) abilities that mimic these spells, if only to boost the power.

This would be best, imo, and they shouldn't be limited /day.

Casters can totally out pace that type of ability while actively trying not to pull out any of the stops.

Yea, the range wasn't the issue; it was the slate intro and the jerky pace of it.

I'm personally fine with giving Distant Shot by level 16, max, to a class like this, and even allowing sneak attacks with it too, but the current progression is just terrible and doesn't actually give any bonuses to long-ranged attacks (other than the out of place dex boosts).

In my experience, extreme range encounters are quite rare, and often are set up deliberately from one side or the other.

True indeed, but if a class called "Sniper" doesn't actually have the capabilities to deliberately set up an extreme range encounter, the class fails miserably.

It makes the class semi-dippable, but I don't have a huge problem with that.

Neither does the author apparently, judging by the first couple of levels here... Only ones worth taking at all, really.

Also... Just nix the 'bonus feat list.' It is stupid and boring.

Grant abilities that roll the benefits of one or two the 'necessary' feats into one class ability for the weaker feats and just outright grant certain bonus feats for the ones that are actually a bit powerful.


And for gods' sake... Add a class ability that actually makes it easier and/or more effective to use the snipe action!
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on February 18, 2012, 11:15:40 PM
I haven't made any changes yet b/c I just saw all the comments.  Thanks for all the input!  I have to mull everything over, but I'm definitely going to make several changes.  I do like the idea of making it a WIS based archer. 
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on February 22, 2012, 06:13:11 PM
Wholesale changes.  Better?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on February 22, 2012, 08:17:30 PM
Wholesale changes.  Better?

Much. But it's still a little bumpy.

For example, not sure how I feel about the massive buff to crit multiplier... Even at only 18 Wis you're giving +7 on top of everything else... So at least 56d6 SA on crits, which all your attacks should be SAs by this point...

And HiPS comes super late for a class that relies on hiding so much.

Also, you should change "Finally, at 19th level, the maximum range at which a Sniper can make a sneak attack with no range penalty is Line of Sight, regardless of the weapon they are using" to something more like "Finally, at 19th level, the Sniper can make a sneak attack against any target she can hit, regardless of range."
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Prime32 on February 22, 2012, 08:18:11 PM
Quote
Ranged Sneak Attack (Ex): At 3rd level, the maximum range at which a Sniper can make a Sneak Attack is 30ft, or a single range increment for the weapon they are using (i.e. A Sniper using a thrown dagger can make a ranged sneak attack at 30ft. with no distance penalty, and a Sniper using a composite longbow can make a ranged sneak attack at 110ft. with no distance penalty).  At 7th level, the maximum range increases to 60ft. / two range increments.  At 11th level, the maximum increases to 90ft / three range increments, and again at 15th level to 120 ft / four range increments.  Finally, at 19th level, the maximum range at which a Sniper can make a sneak attack with no range penalty is Line of Sight, regardless of the weapon they are using.

Improved Sneak Attack (Ex): A Sniper of sufficient level can make Sneak Attacks against creatures which would normally be immune to such attacks.  At 4th level, a Sniper can make sneak attacks against Undead.  At 8th level, a Sniper can use sneak attacks against Elementals.  A Sniper of 12th level can sneak attack Constructs, and at 16th level, a Sniper can make sneak attacks against Oozes and Plants.
I'd suggest changing these to:
Quote
Ranged Sneak Attack (Ex): At 3rd level, when making a ranged attack a sniper may treat any target within one range increment as being 30ft away for determining effects based on distance (such as sneak attack, coup de grace and Point Blank Shot). This has no effect if the target is closer than 30ft.

Horizon Eye (Ex): At 7th level, when making a ranged attack a sniper may treat her target as being one range increment closer for all purposes (including attack penalties, maximum attack distance, and her Ranged Sneak Attack ability). At 11th level she may treat her target as being two range increments closer, and at 15th level she may treat her target as being three range increments closer. At 19th level she may attack any target within line of sight as if they were within one range increment.

Improved Sneak Attack (Ex): At 4th level, a Sniper can make Sneak Attacks against creatures which would normally be immune to such attacks, but the damage dice are reduced to d2s. At 8th level these become d4s, and at 16th level she may apply her full sneak attack damage.
This way there's increased compatibility with other precision-based effects.

Trackless Step should come later. At lv1 I'd add an "Aim" ability which lets you take a move action to gain a damage bonus on your next ranged attack within 1 round equal to your Sniper level + your Wis modifier, along with halving its penalties for sniping. I'd say aiming is a more fundamental skill for a sniper than hiding your tracks, especially when the woodsman class doesn't get it that early.

Also, double spaces after a punctuation mark? Ew. :p
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on February 22, 2012, 08:22:24 PM
Horizon Eye (Ex): At 7th level, when making a ranged attack a sniper may treat her target as being one range increment closer for all purposes (including attack penalties, maximum attack distance, and her Ranged Sneak Attack ability). At 11th level she may treat her target as being two range increments closer, and at 15th level she may treat her target as being three range increments closer. At 19th level she may attack any target within line of sight as if they were within one range increment.

I would actually disagree with this one, myself... It means she has no penalty at all for attacks at any distance... The 19th level version is essentially setting your range increment to infinite as well as allowing sneak attacks.

I agree on the scaling SA dice against SA-immunes instead of granting by type though.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Prime32 on February 22, 2012, 08:28:57 PM
I would actually disagree with this one, myself... It means she has no penalty at all for attacks at any distance... The 19th level version is essentially setting your range increment to infinite as well as allowing sneak attacks.
And that's supposed to be a bad thing in the crazy-powerful world of lv19s? :huh
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on February 22, 2012, 08:33:23 PM

For example, not sure how I feel about the massive buff to crit multiplier... Even at only 18 Wis you're giving +7 on top of everything else... So at least 56d6 SA on crits, which all your attacks should be SAs by this point...

I'll have to change the wording a little.  That wasn't meant as WISMod on top of the previous increases.  It was instead of.  So with an 18 Wis, the crit mult buff is +4, not +7.

EDIT: Also, if you can sneak attack elementals (for example), does that imply that you can crit them?  Or - since that's the effect I want - should I state that outright?

MORE EDIT:  Would it be too much to give both Point Blank Shot and Zen Archery at 1st level?  It doesn't make sense to me for a "WIS-based archer" to wait for Zen Archery to 2nd, so I could switch those, but Point Blank Shot also seems necessary since it's the pre-req for everything else.  AND, should I give Precise Shot as a bonus, or figure that people will take that immediately anyway?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Prime32 on February 22, 2012, 08:55:11 PM
Taking another look...
This class is supposed to specialise in Wis-based long-distance combat. However, at lv1 Point Blank Shot encourages close-range combat, emphasising Wis over Dex will punish you, Move Silently checks only really matter when you're close to your opponent, and Balance bonuses + Light Step actually encourages charging with a melee weapon. You don't get any sniping-related abilities until lv3.
If it's a sniper then it should be a sniper from lv1, or at least a marksman.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: dman11235 on February 22, 2012, 10:38:35 PM
Yeah, your crit things are ridiculous.  And Prime hit the nail on the head.  You need some sort of sniping ability at level 1.  That's what my suggestion of the alteration on the precision damage range thing was.  I do disagree on the move silently thing being only close, I mean, it does only really matter at close range, but it's more of a stealth thing, which a sniper is supposed to be.

So here's what I think you need to have as a general plan for the class: at level 1 you grant a sniping ability, similar to sneak attack, but designed to be more single high quality shot.  This will be 1d6/level, and require a standard action.  As you level, you grant bonuses to hide, move silently, and movement, much like you have, but use (ex) instead of (sp), and have them be constant abilities.  As you level, grant bonuses to crits, and at around level 11 grant an additional attack as part of the sniping action.  As you level grant a bonus on the attack roll for the snipe, slowly, but steadily, around +1/2 or 3 levels.  Grant either dex or wis to damage (probably wis) at some earlyish level, probably around 5, and the other at level 15 or so.  Capstone ability would be 1/day use a full round action to snipe, granting your sniping bonuses on every arrow and have every shot be at full BAB, possibly with another bonus to attack.  Wisdom doesn't come into play unless you take Zen Archery, except as a secondary, though you can change this.  Zen Archery is a terrible feat design wise though, and needs to change.

I actually have a class similar to this I did as a PrC for a Scout sniper variant, I haven't posted it yet because it's not fleshed out yet and I need to make adjustments.  I was thinking of just making a class variant for the Scout and end up combining the PrC into the base class.  You can still see it on the old boards, under Deepwood Sniper, and yes it's an update of the actual PrC.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: ThisGuy01 on February 22, 2012, 11:51:58 PM
Instead of increasing multipliers, why not give them something that rewards them for using a single devastating attack?  What about something like increasing their crit range by 2 for each attack they forgo in a round.  Then additionally giving them bonus damage that can get multiplied, like +xd8 for each attack forgone?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: RobbyPants on February 23, 2012, 08:25:04 AM
A minor nitpick:

You list the use of Arrowstorm to be at will, and then give it a daily limit at the end of the sentence. Typically, "at will" means "no daily limit" in the world of D&D and daily resources. ;)

Perhaps you meant "as a standard action" or something.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on February 23, 2012, 06:45:20 PM
I would actually disagree with this one, myself... It means she has no penalty at all for attacks at any distance... The 19th level version is essentially setting your range increment to infinite as well as allowing sneak attacks.
And that's supposed to be a bad thing in the crazy-powerful world of lv19s? :huh

Not at all, but it's a strange (and bit of a round about) way of doing it. You go from reducing the effective range increment to granting no penalties at all to range. It would, to me, make far more sense to either do as previously suggested and make sneak attacks work at a greater amount of range increments and later grant (with a separate ability) the ability that eliminates the max range increment or to increase (by multipliers most likely) the effective range increment, capping with making it infinite.

I'll second everything else since my last post though; especially replacing Zen Archery feat with a custom class mechanic with the same idea but a better execution. Doing so is always better than granting bonus feats; it allows a tighter fit with the class, avoids the boredom that is a pile of random feats, and prevents feat shuffling.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on April 30, 2012, 08:29:51 PM
Ok, I finally got around to re-working this class.  Another MAJOR OVERHAUL.

What do you think?


A couple questions: 
-I need a name for the “Range” ability.  Also, is the scaling too small?  Too big? 
-I think I still need a capstone.  Suggestions?
-Is there too much at 1st level?  As part of that question, should I give Precise Shot out for free, or let people take it on their own?
-Suggestions for more tricks?
-I need a better name for the Ranged Flanking trick.  Also, is the wording for that ok?

EDIT:  Also, is this Tier 4?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: sirpercival on April 30, 2012, 08:54:53 PM
I'll take a look at the whole thing later, but something is weird with your formatting.  Look at the class features carefully.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on April 30, 2012, 09:02:56 PM
Something is weird with your formatting.  Look at the class features carefully.

Did you mean the extra bracket in front of Aim?  That's now fixed.

Or the strange line spacing?  I think that's because of using Superscripts.

Or something else?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: dman11235 on April 30, 2012, 09:51:46 PM
This is a lot better.  It's still a tad underdeveloped in the main class, but the trick shots are pretty good.  A major concern I have with those, however, is that now you can have a bow with a crit of 12-20x4 or something.  Another: you have Ranged Pin, Trip, Grapple, and Disarm.  These things already exist as feats.  I'd say you probably made tier 4 with this, power and versatility wise.  It's still suffering from a multitude of design flaws, but it is pretty much playable now.  Another problem: your sniper shot is way too complicated.  You have to make a number of attacks to make your single attack viable for a full attack replacement?  Just make it +1-3/+1d4-8.  And actually, I'd make it just damage based on class level, and then have Wis be an attack bonus.  Get rid of Zen Archery.  It'll just be "adds Wis to attack with ranged weapons" much like Smite.  I have to go, so I'm done for now, but this is not an exhaustive list of issues.  Keep in mind your wording and power, including position, of various abilities.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on April 30, 2012, 10:26:35 PM
Another problem: your sniper shot is way too complicated.  You have to make a number of attacks to make your single attack viable for a full attack replacement?

Basically, the idea was this:  I'm a 4th level sniper with a 22 Wis.  I take a full-round action to make 1 attack using Aim.  B/c my level is lower than my WisMod, I take 4 extra touch attack rolls against my target.  For each one that hits, my initial attack gets +1 to attack and +1d4 dmg (max +4/+4d4).  And at 13th level with a 22 Wisdom, it would be +3 (from Greater Aim)  and +1d6 from Powerful Aim (max +18/+6d6).

The other thing is that this could happen every round.  Those numbers as maximums don't seem too powerful.  The following two might be.

Just make it +1-3/+1d4-8.

I could just make it +1/+1d4 per level/WisMod (whichever is smaller).  So in that same example, it would be +4/+4d4 straight up.  And at 13th level with a 22 Wisdom, it would be +3 (from Greater Aim) x 6 (WisMod) = +18 to attack and +1d6 x 6 = 6d6 damage. 

And actually, I'd make it just damage based on class level, and then have Wis be an attack bonus.

This way with the same example:  4th level, 22 Wis, +6 attack / +4d4 damage?  13 level, 22 Wis, +6 attack / +13d6 damage?  At 13th level, 13d6 every round seems OP.

A major concern I have with those, however, is that now you can have a bow with a crit of 12-20x4 or something.

The only way this is really OP is that the extra damage from Aim multiplies.  If I change it so that Aim damage DOESN'T multiply, then is 12-20/x4 really that OP?  Especially considering you'd have to spend 6 Trick Shots to get there (5x Sharp Focus, 1x Deadeye Shot)?

You have Ranged Pin, Trip, Grapple, and Disarm.  These things already exist as feats.

I know... :-\   I just felt like I needed more Tricks. (That's what she said???)  Maybe I can beef them up a little bit so that someone would actually want to use them (and thus make it harder to get to 12-20/x4).
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: dman11235 on April 30, 2012, 11:08:20 PM
+13d6 at level 13 is absolutely not OP, especially since you're only getting a single attack per round at that and can't move (barring swift action moves and such) while doing so.  By that level with a Rogue I can be doing....wait, yeah, I'm doing about 14d6 with GMS as a rogue, so this is actually less damage (the Rogue also has double the base damage, but a lower chance of hitting), but right in the range of where you'd want it.

On multiplying Aim damage: did you specify that the damage gets multiplied?  If not, bonus damage dice never get multiplied.  And if so, then change it so that it's not multiplied.  Bonus damage dice is never multiplied.  Add a static damage if you want it to be multiplied (that's always multiplied).

Also, I'd not do the multiplying the attack bonus thing.  Just have it be Wis modifier.  That's reasonable, while making you an almost certain hit, which is what this class need to be able to do.  If you have it a straight Wis to attack, then a normal archer will still be using Dex as a primary, but Wis will likely be larger.  This effectively increases the attack modifier by a secondary or tertiary stat, and investing in Zen Archery will allow a double stat to attack.  This is absolutely not a problem for a character with a primary ability being "only attack once in a round".  You NEED that shot to hit almost every time.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on April 30, 2012, 11:25:12 PM
What about just allowing (Greater) Manyshot?  It's described as one attack roll, right?  If we're supposed to think of Cary Elwes in Robin Hood: Men In Tights, (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107977/) him firing 6 arrows to pin the guy to the tree is "one" attack.  Manyshot would only have the bonus Aim damage apply once (as normal) while GMS would have the bonus Aim damage apply to all attacks (as normal).
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: dman11235 on April 30, 2012, 11:31:47 PM
Manyshot is a specific action (standard).  It cannot be used with this (this is a full round action, and even if it modified an attack action MS is not an attack action).  Also, a sniper is single shots, not multiple shots.  If you were planning on using Manyshot to be the primary source of extra damage, then I'd say just use Sneak Attack, and have this be a PrC.  It still probably should be a PrC, but that would make it need that change even more so.  I'm still saying that this should be a PrC or a Scout variant too.  But anyways, GMS is not the route you want to take with this.  It makes it no different than SA, so why would you need to introduce a new system?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: phaedrusxy on April 30, 2012, 11:33:41 PM
Why have ranged pin require them to be wearing clothing? You should be able to pin them to a tree through their body, etc. What it should require is an adjacent object or wall to pin them to. Pinning them to another creature could be fun, but you'd have to come up with rules for it.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on April 30, 2012, 11:46:58 PM
And if so, then change it so that it's not multiplied.  Bonus damage dice is never multiplied.

Fixed.

Also, I'd not do the multiplying the attack bonus thing.  Just have it be Wis modifier.  That's reasonable, while making you an almost certain hit, which is what this class need to be able to do.  If you have it a straight Wis to attack, then a normal archer will still be using Dex as a primary, but Wis will likely be larger.  This effectively increases the attack modifier by a secondary or tertiary stat, and investing in Zen Archery will allow a double stat to attack.  This is absolutely not a problem for a character with a primary ability being "only attack once in a round".  You NEED that shot to hit almost every time.

Well, multiplying the attack bonus certainly makes that "need to hit" shot hit most of the time.  But I can see where you're coming from.

Changed.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 01, 2012, 12:00:14 AM
Why have ranged pin require them to be wearing clothing? You should be able to pin them to a tree through their body, etc. What it should require is an adjacent object or wall to pin them to.

Fixed.


Also, made Pin, Trip, and Two for One all work with Aim.  (It doesn't really make sense for Disarm to work with Aim.)
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: MetroMagic on May 01, 2012, 12:43:08 AM
Class quote?

"The record sniper shot is 8120 feet. Peek-a-boo!"
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: MetroMagic on May 01, 2012, 01:01:07 AM
Suggestion on RANGE. Change the definition to be more like what makes a sniper amazing. And keep the name. Or...

(At Home on the) Range (Ex): At 1st level, a Sniper gains a +1 Competence bonus to all ranged attacks, regardless of range increment (normal range penalties still apply), and shots at any range may be attempted; a ranged weapon's maximum range limit does not apply to a Sniper. At 5th level, the range increment of all ranged weapon attacks is doubled. For example, a longbow's range increment becomes 200 feet instead of 100, a -2 penalty applies from 200 to 400 feet, and so on.  At 10th level, the range increment is tripled, and at 15th level, the range increment is quadrupled.  At 20th level, a sniper may attack anyone she can see with no range penalty, and no maximum range.  The competence bonus still applies at all levels.  This ability counts as Point Blank Shot for the purposes of pre-requisites.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 01, 2012, 01:06:12 AM
(At Home on the) Range (Ex) ...

This is definitely more of what I was thinking.  And it scales much better.  I shall make the appropriate changes.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: MetroMagic on May 01, 2012, 01:33:28 AM
RE: I need a better name for the Ranged Flanking trick.  Also, is the wording for that ok?

The name is ok, definitely descriptive. But kind of flat, yeah.

"Tap on the Shoulder"?

"No, I'm Over There?"

I was thinking of names like that from the idea that the Flanking results from distraction... arrow out of nowhere, now the victim is looking around to find the sniper. So it wouldn't necessarily be automatic, but fairly likely at low levels and still a good chance at high levels.

So the writeup could be like this:

No, I'm Over There: Any opponent a Sniper hits with a ranged attack is considered to be flanked for the subsequent round, unless the opponent makes a Concentration check (or a WILL Save?); the DC equals the sniper's level plus the attack roll that hit.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: MetroMagic on May 01, 2012, 01:50:29 AM
RE: I think I still need a capstone.  Suggestions?

You have increasing mobility through various types of "Xwalk".

Here is a capstone "Xwalk" that plays well with the other capstone ability, line of sight shooting:

Shotwalk: At 20th level, as a Move action the sniper may 'follow' a shot; the sniper may Teleport to the location of a target of a ranged attack the sniper makes that hits that target, even if that location is on another Plane (for example, if the sniper shot at a target through a Gate). The sniper may appear anywhere within 20 feet of the location along the line of the shot, facing the point of impact of the shot. If the shot has not yet impacted any target in the round following the attack, the sniper may follow it to its current location and then continue to follow it from round to round until the shot does make impact.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 01, 2012, 02:35:18 AM
Shotwalk: At 20th level, as a Move action the sniper may 'follow' a shot; the sniper may Teleport to the location of a target of a ranged attack the sniper makes that hits that target, even if that location is on another Plane (for example, if the sniper shot at a target through a Gate). The sniper may appear anywhere within 20 feet of the location along the line of the shot, facing the point of impact of the shot. If the shot has not yet impacted any target in the round following the attack, the sniper may follow it to its current location and then continue to follow it from round to round until the shot does make impact.

This is a really cool idea.  I'm not sure how it would scale backwards from the 20th lvl ability though.  ...Or did you mean as the 20th level ability of Light Step?  That makes more sense.  I'll put it in!  One question though: do you have to attack a person for this to work?  "See that tree 10 miles away... I'm going to hit it!"  *poof*  Teleported there.



Separately, I just realized that the +1 Competence bonus to all ranged attack from the (At Home on the) Range ability doesn't really make sense.  I'm going to take that out, and just make the Aim ability count as Point Blank Shot.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 01, 2012, 03:12:53 AM
Ok.  Added Shotwalk, changed (At Home on the) Range and Aim as I said earlier.

Also, made Aim much more useful with Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim. (...NOW WITH BETTER AIM!!!  :P)
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: MetroMagic on May 01, 2012, 03:14:57 AM
20th level capstone for Light Step, yes.

I also intended it for abuse to allow long-range movement for the sniper:

I can see... the sun. I shoot it. Now I Teleport after my shot... still Teleporting... still Teleporting... hmmm. That arrow isn't going to make it, it's falling into the ocean and so am I. OK, before I fall in, from three miles up (now I get why they call it *terminal* velocity) I can see that cloud from here; I'm shooting it.... now I Teleport toward the cloud and not fall in! Yay! By nightfall I'll be across the ocean, if the weather holds for good visibility. I think I'll buy a Ring of Featherfall, before I try this again...

(I've got no problem with this; the character is 20th level!)
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 01, 2012, 03:25:57 AM
I can see... the sun. I shoot it. Now I Teleport after my shot... still Teleporting... still Teleporting... hmmm. That arrow isn't going to make it, it's falling into the ocean and so am I. OK, before I fall in, from three miles up (now I get why they call it *terminal* velocity) I can see that cloud from here; I'm shooting it.... now I Teleport toward the cloud and not fall in! Yay! By nightfall I'll be across the ocean, if the weather holds for good visibility. I think I'll buy a Ring of Featherfall, before I try this again...

 :lmao

Love it!



Question for the experts (not the Experts - none of you would be that):  Once you get Fast Aim, if you make a Full Attack, should you be able to use Aim multiple times in the same round?  As the simplest example, at 8th level, your BAB gives you a second attack.  At this point your Aim bonus damage is 8d4.  Should a character be able to semi-reliably do 16d4 damage/round?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: MetroMagic on May 01, 2012, 03:37:15 AM
Wild idea, I'll just put this out there and let everyone else play with it to come up with the weirdness too.

A Trick Shot? Another high-level class feature?

Two from the same wild idea:

Escape Velocity... and/or... Ballistic Shot

I shot an arrow into the air.
It fell to earth I know not where.
Wait... it didn't.

(Maybe there's a crossover PrC here, between Sniper and Powerbard; after all, they both use stringed instruments... the whole Longfellow reference is:

I shot an Arrow into the air
It fell to earth I know not where,
For so swiftly it flew, the sight
Could not follow it in its flight.

I breath'd a Song into the air
It fell to earth, I know not where.
For who has sight so keen and strong
That it can follow the flight of a song?

Long, long afterward in an oak
I found the Arrow still unbroke;
And the Song from begining to end
I found again in the heart of a friend. )
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 01, 2012, 09:28:03 PM
Added a new capstone, moved some things around, made a couple of clarifications.  I'm not sure about the name for the capstone.  Ideas?

EDIT: Also added a couple of new Trick Shots!
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: sirpercival on May 02, 2012, 08:06:39 AM
Get rid of the parenthetical for (at home on the) range, it really clutters up the table.  Call the ability "rangefinder".

Don't use superscripts for level things, it makes the line and word spacing look weird.  Just say "3rd" (or whatever).

The second part of Fast Aim is meaningless; you can't do a Full Attack and a Standard Action at the same time.  I really think you should decouple Aim from the attack.  Make Aim a move action which applies the bonus to your next attack in the same round; later it becomes a swift action, and then it applies to all attacks in a round.

Shotwalk is very bizarre, I'm not sure if I like it.  It might work more cleanly if you just shoot a target so hard they have to make a save or be planeshifted to a random plane.

I like the capstone, except... it's basically the same as a 4th-level Ranger spell (arrowstorm), except that it trades semi-unlimited distance for capping the # of attacks.

Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: RobbyPants on May 02, 2012, 08:11:23 AM
The class seems really dip friendly. With one level, you get the ability to ignore Point Blank Shot as a prereq, Precise Shot, and a better version of Far Shot that stacks with Far Shot. I'd consider bumping the last ability up to level 2 and swap it with something like Trackless Step or whatever. With Aim and Precise Shot, you already get the feel of a sniper at first level, and you should be fairly effective.


Also, I'm confused about how Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim work. Do they stack with other sources of extra attacks such as Rapid Shot or Haste? I'm looking at the wording:

Quote
Fast Aim (Ex): At 5th level, a Sniper may use her Aim ability as a Standard Action.  If she gets multiple attacks with a Full-Attack Action, a Sniper may apply her Aim bonuses to all of them.

Accelerated Aim (Ex): A Sniper of 13th level can use her Aim ability as a Move Action.

I guess even with three attacks at level 5, you're only adding 15d4 damage, which is about 37.5 damage. This is still solidly under uber-charger territory.

Can you combine Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim in one round? Normally, you get a standard action and a move action in one round, and nothing in Accelerated Aim says it replaces Fast Aim, so it seems legal. I'm going to assume you weren't planning on handing out two full attacks at 13th level with 13d6 damage on top of each one and +Wis to hit.

Personally, I don't think you should be handing out full attacks on a move action, although I could see allowing something like this to stack as a capstone, or maybe at high teen levels. It's sort of like that 9th level Diamond Mind maneuver.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 02, 2012, 08:34:41 AM
Get rid of the parenthetical for (at home on the) range, it really clutters up the table.  Call the ability "rangefinder".

Don't use superscripts for level things, it makes the line and word spacing look weird.  Just say "3rd" (or whatever).

Changed.

The second part of Fast Aim is meaningless; you can't do a Full Attack and a Standard Action at the same time.  I really think you should decouple Aim from the attack.  Make Aim a move action which applies the bonus to your next attack in the same round; later it becomes a swift action, and then it applies to all attacks in a round.
Also, I'm confused about how Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim work. Do they stack with other sources of extra attacks such as Rapid Shot or Haste? I'm looking at the wording:

Quote
Fast Aim (Ex): At 5th level, a Sniper may use her Aim ability as a Standard Action.  If she gets multiple attacks with a Full-Attack Action, a Sniper may apply her Aim bonuses to all of them.

Accelerated Aim (Ex): A Sniper of 13th level can use her Aim ability as a Move Action.

I guess even with three attacks at level 5, you're only adding 15d4 damage, which is about 37.5 damage. This is still solidly under uber-charger territory.

Can you combine Fast Aim and Accelerated Aim in one round? Normally, you get a standard action and a move action in one round, and nothing in Accelerated Aim says it replaces Fast Aim, so it seems legal. I'm going to assume you weren't planning on handing out two full attacks at 13th level with 13d6 damage on top of each one and +Wis to hit.

I'm not trying to say that Fast Aim lets people take a Full-Attack Action as a Standard Action.  I'm trying to say that when people take a Full-Attack Action once they have Fast Aim, all of their attacks get the Aim bonus, instead of having to only take 1 Attack as a Full-Attack Action.

[MORE EDIT:]  A simple example.  At 8th level, you get your second attack from BAB (I'm assuming for this example you don't have a speed weapon / haste / rapid shot / whatever).  Without Fast Aim, you'd make a single attack as a full attack action.  Well, now you actually have a second attack that you're basically wasting.  With Fast Aim, now your Standard Action single attack gets the Aim bonus.  And with the move action that you get back with FA, you could move (...duh :P).  Or, instead of taking your single attack and moving, you could take a Full Attack.  When you take a Full Attack with Fast Aim, both (or all) of your attacks get the Aim bonus.

Now, when you get Accelerated Aim, you can take a single attack with your Aim bonus as a move action, and then you can do whatever you want for your standard action.  Or you can still take a full attack action and get your Aim bonus on all attacks.

What should the wording be to get all of that across without actually putting in that example?  Or should I put in that example?
[/EDIT]


The class seems really dip friendly. With one level, you get the ability to ignore Point Blank Shot as a prereq, Precise Shot, and a better version of Far Shot that stacks with Far Shot. I'd consider bumping the last ability up to level 2 and swap it with something like Trackless Step or whatever.

Seems reasonable.  Done.

EDIT:
I like the capstone, except... it's basically the same as a 4th-level Ranger spell (arrowstorm), except that it trades semi-unlimited distance for capping the # of attacks.

So, get rid of the cap on attacks?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: RobbyPants on May 02, 2012, 09:05:24 AM
What should the wording be to get all of that across without actually putting in that example?  Or should I put in that example?
Note that the standard or move-action version only applies to one attack. You may gain the Aim bonus to all of your attacks from a full attack as a full-round action.

I didn't realize that it could be used to do two different things.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 02, 2012, 09:10:02 AM
What should the wording be to get all of that across without actually putting in that example?  Or should I put in that example?
Note that the standard or move-action version only applies to one attack. You may gain the Aim bonus to all of your attacks from a full attack as a full-round action.

Changed.


...and off to work.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Sneaky_Sable on May 03, 2012, 12:24:09 PM
Fire, I'm just pulling a Copy Pasta of the message I sent you, so that others can reflect off of what I mentioned, and possibly help out:

I gave it a read and there are few iffy' things that I noticed.

First, at 16th level the Sniper no longer has to worry about range increments and can fire at any target in line of sight. This is the Epic Feat "Distance Shot". Now, Distance Shot has the prerequisites of Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Spot 20 ranks. I don't know if you really want to give a class an epic feat at 16th. 20th maybe, but 16th?

Speaking of 20th, that's not just an epic feat too it's actually BETTER! Swarm of Arrows lets you rain down doom at your base attack bonus to every enemy in 30 feet as a full action.

I looked at this class, and while it's a sniper, and has lots of movement and hiding and what not, it has no Save or Die ability. Why not give them the Pathfinder Ranger 20th level ability of "Once Per Day, an arrow you fire is an Arrow of Slaying." deal. A 20th level sniper should be able to literally just command someone to die by twanging an arrow, or whatever sound effect arrows make.


Okay, so Light Step. It's WIS mod / day or Class Level / Day... which means after fifth level, it's Class Level / Day. Why not pick one :) Either make it Wisdom Mod / Day for each of them (Because if you need to cast Water Walk more then 3 times a day, something is terribly wrong), or just let them do it whenever they want after 10th level. Since you'll be using your class level as the caster level (Which you didn't mention but I assumed), most of these will last long enough to get you either to a great vantage point (In the cases of Spider Climb and Water Walk)... or to Valhalla (In the case of Air Walk).

Now, ShotWalk. It sounds really interesting, but the ultimate question is Why? I'm a Sniper. I have a spot, and I'm not leaving it. Now, if I'm discovered and people are trying to kill me, then I can use the ability to fire at anything I can see to shoot the horizon and leave combat 11 miles behind me. Sure, that's handy. But there's no way I'm going to teleport within 30 feet of the guy I just shot. He's probably either dead, or super-pissed off.

What you may want to consider are things like "You can scry on the location of anywhere your shots hit" or something like that. Perhaps also include a class feature that says "Non-magical arrows and bolts that you fire that miss don't ever break" and then later on "Magical arrows and bolts you fire that miss only break 50% of the time" to let snipers recover arrows better. Also account for folks taking levels in Sniper that aren't using a bow (Since it isn't a pre-requisite). You could take this class with someone who throws axes or javelins. Or small countries (See "Hulking Hurler" for details).

Cause you know someone on this board will class into Sniper from HH and when they're discovered, they'll throw the tree they're hiding in at someone.

Other then that, I think this is cool. I like the trick shots! Though, a few of them replace feats. Will they replace the feat for the purposes of qualifying for stuff as well. I know Ranged Disarm is a feat, for instance.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: RobbyPants on May 03, 2012, 01:21:46 PM
First, at 16th level the Sniper no longer has to worry about range increments and can fire at any target in line of sight. This is the Epic Feat "Distance Shot". Now, Distance Shot has the prerequisites of Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Spot 20 ranks. I don't know if you really want to give a class an epic feat at 16th. 20th maybe, but 16th?
I wouldn't use epic feats as a bench mark. Many of them are pretty lame. By 16th level, casters are whipping around 8th level spells, so I'm not too worried about an archer being able to shoot at anything he can see.

Plus, remember that the Spot rules limit how far you can effectively see, anyway.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Sneaky_Sable on May 03, 2012, 02:00:03 PM
I tend to use Epic Feats as benchmarks regardless of how lame they are because the Epic Level handbook has no middle ground. Either something is terrible, and has no place in any book, or it can single handedly destroy the world.

So it's a 50 / 50 shot for utter broken, and by the time you would normally qualify for this feat, you've got at least 20 ranks in Spot, which kinda gives the finger to the "Spot rules limit sight distance" aspect. Plus if you're going for distance, you've got more then just the requisite 20 ranks. So you can spot something on the horizon, adjust for wind, and plink it.

Plus, you can hit 20 ranks in spot by level 17, so it's not technically "Post 20" material, but if I recall it's listed as [Epic] so you'd have to wait until post 20 anyway.

Caster are whipping around 8th level spells, and luckily, with that class ability you can technically outrange their long range Abracapocalypse
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: RobbyPants on May 03, 2012, 03:39:55 PM
Caster are whipping around 8th level spells, and luckily, with that class ability you can technically outrange their long range Abracapocalypse
You'd need both an area wide open enough to take advantage of it, and a ridiculously high Spot mod. Note that every ten feet adds a -1 penalty to the check. At 16th level, a Long range spell reaches 1040 feet (400 + 40 per level). That's a -104 penalty on your Spot check.

Granted, it's likely they can't spot you at that distance either, but my point is that ignoring range increments doesn't really translate into unlimited range.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Sneaky_Sable on May 03, 2012, 03:56:24 PM
In which case it becomes an arms race to see either who rolls a natural 20 on a spot first, or who notices who first, which essentially places most encounters in the same venue as Dungeon Encounters where line of encounter is limited by the room or hallway you are in, which limits everyone equally. 8th level spells don't let you cast around corners (Though they can level an entire dungeon) so ultimately it's back to Who Spots Who First. :)

Be sure to bring a mirror to check around corners.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 03, 2012, 03:57:24 PM
First, at 16th level the Sniper no longer has to worry about range increments and can fire at any target in line of sight. This is the Epic Feat "Distance Shot". Now, Distance Shot has the prerequisites of Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Spot 20 ranks. I don't know if you really want to give a class an epic feat at 16th. 20th maybe, but 16th?
I wouldn't use epic feats as a bench mark. Many of them are pretty lame. By 16th level, casters are whipping around 8th level spells, so I'm not too worried about an archer being able to shoot at anything he can see.

Plus, remember that the Spot rules limit how far you can effectively see, anyway.
I think I agree with RobbyPants here.  Sable, if it made you feel better, I could move that ability to 17th, so theoretically the Spot requirement could be fulfilled.


Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
Speaking of 20th, that's not just an epic feat too it's actually BETTER! Swarm of Arrows lets you rain down doom at your base attack bonus to every enemy in 30 feet as a full action.
Yeah.  I kept going back and forth about whether it should be 30' or any distance.  The compromise I came to was Any Distance, but limited the number of attacks to WisMod.  Now, depending on the char('s WisMod), that could potentially be more than would be attacked by ArrowStorm, but it might not.

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
I looked at this class, and while it's a sniper, and has lots of movement and hiding and what not, it has no Save or Die ability. Why not give them the Pathfinder Ranger 20th level ability of "Once Per Day, an arrow you fire is an Arrow of Slaying." deal. A 20th level sniper should be able to literally just command someone to die by twanging an arrow, or whatever sound effect arrows make.

Now, ShotWalk. It sounds really interesting, but the ultimate question is Why? I'm a Sniper. I have a spot, and I'm not leaving it. Now, if I'm discovered and people are trying to kill me, then I can use the ability to fire at anything I can see to shoot the horizon and leave combat 11 miles behind me. Sure, that's handy. But there's no way I'm going to teleport within 30 feet of the guy I just shot. He's probably either dead, or super-pissed off.
On second twelfth read of the ability, I think I agree about Shotwalk.  It's a cool idea, but it's too complicated, and doesn't really fit.  To address both of the issues you raised here, I think I'll replace Shotwalk with a Save-or-Die ability.  "One Shot Kill"?

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
What you may want to consider are things like "You can scry on the location of anywhere your shots hit" or something like that.
With an ability like this, could you use what you can see with the Scry to have "Line of Sight" to a target?

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
Okay, so Light Step. It's WIS mod / day or Class Level / Day... which means after fifth level, it's Class Level / Day. Why not pick one :) Either make it Wisdom Mod / Day for each of them (Because if you need to cast Water Walk more then 3 times a day, something is terribly wrong), or just let them do it whenever they want after 10th level. Since you'll be using your class level as the caster level (Which you didn't mention but I assumed), most of these will last long enough to get you either to a great vantage point (In the cases of Spider Climb and Water Walk)... or to Valhalla (In the case of Air Walk).
Changed to WisMod/day, and added clarification about caster level.

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
Perhaps also include a class feature that says "Non-magical arrows and bolts that you fire that miss don't ever break" and then later on "Magical arrows and bolts you fire that miss only break 50% of the time" to let snipers recover arrows better.
I'm not sure if any DMs actually make players keep track of non-magical ammo.  Magical ammo on the other hand (Arrow of Bone?) could be a different story.  I'll add something for both, even if the non-magical part is just fluff.

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
Also account for folks taking levels in Sniper that aren't using a bow (Since it isn't a pre-requisite). You could take this class with someone who throws axes or javelins. Or small countries (See "Hulking Hurler" for details).

Cause you know someone on this board will class into Sniper from HH and when they're discovered, they'll throw the tree they're hiding in at someone.
:lol Talk about a Ranged Pin!  There's actually nothing anywhere in the meat of the class that says anything about using a bow.  I think the only thing is at the beginning where it says "A Wisdom-based Archer," and "Wisdom-based Ranged Attacker" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.  Any suggestions for better wording?

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
I like the trick shots!
:D  I'm glad!  I do too.

Quote from: Sneaky_Sable
Though, a few of them replace feats. Will they replace the feat for the purposes of qualifying for stuff as well. I know Ranged Disarm is a feat, for instance.
I added language to make them count as pre-req's.  Also, I wanted to make them a little better than the feats, so that someone might actually want to take them.  Any ideas on that subject?  Or ideas for other Trick Shots?




EDIT:  I'm considering adding some Heimlich Martial Maneuvers, but I've never really done anything with them.  Any suggestions for Disciplines or Stances?  Do they really go with a ranged specialist?  Or do the Trick Shots kind of replace them?  Would it be too much to have both Maneuvers AND Trick Shots?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Sneaky_Sable on May 03, 2012, 04:51:38 PM
This class doesn't need martial maneuvers. Don't make a class that can do everything.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: sirpercival on May 03, 2012, 04:52:57 PM
This class doesn't need martial maneuvers. Don't make a class that can do everything.

Make a class that can do NOTHING!

Oh wait, I already did.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Sneaky_Sable on May 03, 2012, 04:54:20 PM
Quote
With an ability like this, could you use what you can see with the Scry to have "Line of Sight" to a target?

Probably, but Line of Sight doesn't always mean Line of Effect.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 03, 2012, 10:31:11 PM
This class doesn't need martial maneuvers. Don't make a class that can do everything.

Make a class that can do NOTHING!

Oh wait, I already did.

Yeah, it's called Grunt.   :P
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: sirpercival on May 03, 2012, 10:33:11 PM
 :grave
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: SneeR on May 04, 2012, 07:19:58 PM
I like that this class can be used for a high-STR/WIS character that dipped barbarian or something to throw weapons like crazy. Can this class lead into Hulking Hurler? I'd have to check again.

This class is nicely flavorful, though Greater Snipe reads to me unclearly enough to allow infinite attacks... Hide, attack, hide at no penalty, attack, hide at no penalty, attack... You don't give an action type for that second Hide check; is it a move action as normal?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 05, 2012, 12:30:10 AM
Greater Snipe reads to me unclearly enough to allow infinite attacks... Hide, attack, hide at no penalty, attack, hide at no penalty, attack... You don't give an action type for that second Hide check; is it a move action as normal?

Re-worded.  Better?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: SneeR on May 05, 2012, 04:34:43 PM
Greater Snipe reads to me unclearly enough to allow infinite attacks... Hide, attack, hide at no penalty, attack, hide at no penalty, attack... You don't give an action type for that second Hide check; is it a move action as normal?
Re-worded.  Better?
I feel like I'm being picky, but maybe tell that they are two different abilities. Add an, "In addition..." for the second part, maybe? Up to you.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 06, 2012, 09:44:46 PM
Greater Snipe reads to me unclearly enough to allow infinite attacks... Hide, attack, hide at no penalty, attack, hide at no penalty, attack... You don't give an action type for that second Hide check; is it a move action as normal?
Re-worded.  Better?
I feel like I'm being picky, but maybe tell that they are two different abilities. Add an, "In addition..." for the second part, maybe? Up to you.


How about this:

Quote
Greater Snipe (Ex): At 10th level, a Sniper who has successfully Hidden may make a single ranged attack and then immediately Hide at no penalty.  In addition, if a Sniper who has successfully hidden uses a full-round action to attack with a ranged weapon, the penalty to the subsequent Hide check is decreased to -10.

Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: SneeR on May 06, 2012, 09:47:09 PM
That is fantastic, Fire-san! Much clearer!

EDIT: I wish this class were made by WotC. It is the quintessential sniping class, and I love it! It would compliment my sniper Factotum perfectly! Hey, is there any chance you could make a feat that bases it on INT instead of WIS? It would assist the archetype of, "I've been studying up on anatomy, so be assured I'll hit his arteries with every shot."
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 07, 2012, 02:14:22 AM
That is fantastic, Fire-san! Much clearer!

EDIT: I wish this class were made by WotC. It is the quintessential sniping class, and I love it! It would compliment my sniper Factotum perfectly! Hey, is there any chance you could make a feat that bases it on INT instead of WIS? It would assist the archetype of, "I've been studying up on anatomy, so be assured I'll hit his arteries with every shot."


I'm glad you like it!  As you can tell from all the old comments, I've put a lot of work into it.

How about something like this:

Quote
Studied Killer
Extensive analysis has provided the Sniper with intimate knowledge of all types of bodies, and their weak points.
Pre-requisite: Sniper's Aim ability.
Benefit: All of a Sniper's class abilites based on Wisdom are instead based on Intelligence.

My concern with this is that it seems too specific.  Especially if there's only 1 feet feat.  If there were more Sniper feats, then this one would certainly fit in.  To some extent, I'm not really sure about other Sniper feats, since most of what would have been feats turned into Trick Shots.  If you have suggestions for other feats that don't really fit as Trick Shots, lmk. (Also, if you have suggestions for other Trick Shots, I'd like to hear them as well.)
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: SneeR on May 07, 2012, 02:25:54 AM
What about a trick shot that bonks them on the head and stuns them? Would only work on creatures with discernible anatomy?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 07, 2012, 12:17:57 PM
What about a trick shot that bonks them on the head and stuns them? Would only work on creatures with discernible anatomy?

Check it out:

Quote
Lights Out:
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: With this trick, a Sniper may substitute a Ranged Touch Attack for a normal attack.  If this attack succeeds, instead of dealing normal damage, the target must make a Fortitude Save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds.  The Save DC for this ability is 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Wisdom Modifier.
Special: This trick does not affect creatures normally immune to Stunning.  This trick only works on creatures with discernible anatomy.  Using this trick does not count against uses of the Weak Spot trick.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Sneaky_Sable on May 07, 2012, 12:45:29 PM
What about a trick shot that bonks them on the head and stuns them? Would only work on creatures with discernible anatomy?

Check it out:

Quote
Lights Out:
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: With this trick, a Sniper may substitute a Ranged Touch Attack for a normal attack.  If this attack succeeds, instead of dealing normal damage, the target must make a Fortitude Save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds.  The Save DC for this ability is 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Wisdom Modifier.
Special: This trick does not affect creatures normally immune to Stunning.  This trick only works on creatures with discernible anatomy.  Using this trick does not count against uses of the Weak Spot trick.

And next up, the Boxing Glove arrow! :)
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on May 10, 2012, 07:44:31 PM
This looks incrediably, edibly, wonderfully so much better...  :love :love

But there are still a few small issues...

The mechanic of Aim is a little awkward, at least in it's wording.

(click to show/hide)

And 18th level just doesn't make sense. You're already allowing the class to mundanely hide in any situation (though it would be better to base it off of Shadowdancer's HiPS, the ranger version needs camouflage to work properly) but then suddenly converting it to being magic based instead??? Just make sure that the HiPS version you give this class works without cover or concealment and give them the Darkstalker feat at some point (allowing them to hide against scent and blindsight and such).

Also the 19th and 20th level abilities are ridiculously weak.

1/day death attack at level 19? Seriously? It's level 19. Just make ALL Aim attacks be a save or die. This would make an immediate action Aim step very dangerous and tactically viable.

Whirlwind attack as a level 20 capstone? Seriously? Even with my suggested level 19 ability this is weak. Uncap it and swap it with my recommendation for level 19.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 11, 2012, 12:23:45 AM
The mechanic of Aim is a little awkward, at least in it's wording.

If I am understanding your intent correctly, this is how it works as it scales.

Full round action for one attack.
Standard action for one attack but full round action for full attack.
Move action for one attack but full round action for full attack.

It would be less awkward to simply make it take a full round action to take a full attack with X bonuses. This allows auto scaling of number of attacks as they gain them. Then simply make the speedier versions allow one attack with aim bonuses as a standard and then a move. I would also recommend adding in an immediate action step.

Clarified.  Added Immediate Action Aim at 18th (instead of Unseen Assassin).

Quote from: EjoThims
And 18th level just doesn't make sense. You're already allowing the class to mundanely hide in any situation (though it would be better to base it off of Shadowdancer's HiPS, the ranger version needs camouflage to work properly) but then suddenly converting it to being magic based instead??? Just make sure that the HiPS version you give this class works without cover or concealment and give them the Darkstalker feat at some point (allowing them to hide against scent and blindsight and such).

Added Darkstalker.  Added HiPS wording.

Quote from: EjoThims
Also the 19th and 20th level abilities are ridiculously weak.

1/day death attack at level 19? Seriously? It's level 19. Just make ALL Aim attacks be a save or die. This would make an immediate action Aim step very dangerous and tactically viable.

Whirlwind attack as a level 20 capstone? Seriously? Even with my suggested level 19 ability this is weak. Uncap it and swap it with my recommendation for level 19.

Swapped Fire All and One Shot Kill. 

For uncapping Fire All, did you mean the uses per encounter or the number of targets in the attack?  Or both?  For the moment, I got rid of the max number of targets.

For One Shot Kill, instead of making it every Aim attack, I made it a single attack as a standard action (with Aim bonuses), but I did uncap the uses/day.  I didn't want to make it every attack of a full-attack action, because that doesn't really seem like a "sniper-y" thing.



Also, added a few of Trick Shots ((Improved) Dimensional Shot, Phase Shot).  Is the wording for those ok/understandable?  And I alphabetized the Class Abilities in the table.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on May 12, 2012, 04:57:59 PM
Swapped Fire All and One Shot Kill. 

For uncapping Fire All, did you mean the uses per encounter or the number of targets in the attack?  Or both?  For the moment, I got rid of the max number of targets.

Yes, I had meant uncap the targets.

I would also recommend switching the wording from "any opponent she can see" to "all opponents she can see," thereby clarifying that there is no limit to the targets.

For One Shot Kill, instead of making it every Aim attack, I made it a single attack as a standard action (with Aim bonuses), but I did uncap the uses/day.  I didn't want to make it every attack of a full-attack action, because that doesn't really seem like a "sniper-y" thing.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant all individual Aim attacks, those not used with a full attack, so your capstone is choosing between full attacks with high damage or single attacks that are always save or dies. The way you've changed it has the same result, though, so all is good.  :D


So much yummier now...  :thumb
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 14, 2012, 04:41:18 AM
I would also recommend switching the wording from "any opponent she can see" to "all opponents she can see," thereby clarifying that there is no limit to the targets.

Fixed.

Does the wording for Dimension Shot, Imp Dim Shot, and Phase Shot all make sense?


Quote from: EjoThims
So much yummier now...  :thumb

Sweet!   :D

I can't wait to play one and see how it all actually goes together.  I have a feeling that it's going to be hard to pick Trick Shots - at least I hope it is!
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: sirpercival on May 14, 2012, 07:34:13 AM
I can't wait to play one and see how it all actually goes together.  I have a feeling that it's going to be hard to pick Trick Shots - at least I hope it is!

I may have a game for you... (http://z13.invisionfree.com/bears_w_swordchucks/index.php?showforum=11)
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 15, 2012, 03:11:43 AM
Added two more Trick Shots:  Critical Shot & Penetrating Shot


EDIT:  So, now I have 21 Trick Shots, some of which can be taken multiple times.  I'm thinking about making the Extra Trick feat takeable multiple times, up to a number of times = sniper level.  Thoughts?

EDIT EDIT:  Added two Sniper Feats: (Improved) Alert Reaction.  Is the wording on those clear?  Also changed the wording for the Extra Trick feat to make it takeable a number of times = iterative attacks.

MORE EDIT: Added Cunning Veil class feature.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: VennDygrem on May 18, 2012, 02:26:56 PM
Limiting Extra Trick to equal sniper level only really affects first level, since by third level you won't really be able to take it that much (assuming it was limited from first level). Thereafter, the limit just gets that much more useless.

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with a limit. Limiting it so one can't take it multiple times at first level doesn't work since you don't get trick shot until second level. Even if it did its job, most of the trick shots have prerequisites. Honestly I don't believe the limit does any good. If someone wants to use up all their free feats on Extra Trick, they ought to be able to. With so many trick shots available, there are too many to choose from. Let the sniper broaden their skillset a bit. :D
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 18, 2012, 08:22:24 PM
Limiting Extra Trick to equal sniper level only really affects first level, since by third level you won't really be able to take it that much (assuming it was limited from first level). Thereafter, the limit just gets that much more useless.

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with a limit. Limiting it so one can't take it multiple times at first level doesn't work since you don't get trick shot until second level. Even if it did its job, most of the trick shots have prerequisites. Honestly I don't believe the limit does any good. If someone wants to use up all their free feats on Extra Trick, they ought to be able to. With so many trick shots available, there are too many to choose from. Let the sniper broaden their skillset a bit. :D

I guess I was just worried that some of the tricks were better enough than the feats that people might take that it would be a little unbalanced.  Especially if people classed into Feater! (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4463.0)   :P  Or - as a more likely possibilty - dipping 2 levels of Sniper to get Trick Shot, and then taking Extra Trick a bunch of times.  I don't know if it would be as powerful as I'm imagining though.  Particularly since, as you said, after 1st, you don't get a lot of feats.

Alright, you (and I) talked me into it!  Uncapped it is!
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: VennDygrem on May 21, 2012, 07:03:49 PM
Yeah, honestly, even if someone dipped, it'd take all of their feats to get only a few tricks, whereas someone who invests in the class fully gets a lot more. It actually kind of supports the idea of the dip, wherein you don't pick up a few skills (represented by the dip) and stop training in them; you continue what you learned, just at reduced pace.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 26, 2012, 09:31:50 AM
So, I realized that if a Sniper can fly from 1st or 2nd level (presumably Racially), then all of the "Light Step" stuff is pretty much useless, which kind of makes 3rd & 7th dead levels (14th is Light Step: Air Walk, but you still get a Trick Shot, so the level isn't completely useless).  I kinda want to have an ACF for the Light Step Progression, but I'm not sure what.  Any suggestions?

EDIT:  15th also seems dead, and 11th half-dead.

EDIT2:  Or should I just leave it as is because not every level can be awesome?  I mean, even at the levels I mentioned above, the Aim damage is increasing, so they're not totally useless.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: VennDygrem on May 26, 2012, 10:49:58 AM
Having a Light Step ACF wouldn't be bad, but overall, I'd say the class gets quite a lot as it is, so the other levels you mention might not need any tweaking or additions. That said, if you can come up with something small, that's not breaking anything, either.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 27, 2012, 11:10:52 PM
Added the "Demoralizing Shot" ACF.  Whatcha think?

EDIT:  Is this class Low Tier 3?  High Tier 4?  Average Tier 4?

EDIT2: Made the Ranged Pin/Trip/Disarm Trick Shots better.

EDIT3: Added Energetic Shot trick.

EDIT4: Added Keen Perception CF, and cleaned up some Trick Shot wording.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: sirpercival on June 25, 2012, 06:47:14 AM
You have trick shots for Grapple, Disarm, and Trip, but no Bull Rush?

Either way, I think I broke this.  If there's a Bull Rush trick shot you probably don't need bloodstorm blade, but whatever.

ALMIGHTY MALACHI, PROFESSIONAL BOWLING GOD
Goliath Sniper 6/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 2

Trick Shots: Whites of Their Eyes, Double Jeopardy, And Your Little Dog Too
Feats: Power Attack, Knockback, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper

Throw shurikens.  You can do the following against more than one person in a single round, I believe, but I'll explain it based on a single (-ish) target.

Round 1) Attack Dude A with your shuriken.
Round 2) Use your swift action to declare your thrown attacks as melee attacks via BB.  Now throw at Dude A (2-handed, of course), using Power Attack.  This triggers Knockback.  Bull rush Dude A into Dude B and get an automatic trip attempt against both of them.  If either of them falls down, you get immediate attacks against them (via Improved Trip), which you can make because you threaten them both.  This triggers a new Knockback Bull Rush on both of them.

Continue ad nauseum until you pound them into a wall or other obstacle, dealing 8d6 + 3*str mod damage via Dungeoncrasher.

You could do it with Orcish Shotputs to REALLY be bowling, but shurikens are a ton cheaper, and it's hysterical if you 2-hand them.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on June 25, 2012, 08:41:33 AM
SWEEET!!!   :clap :clap :clap


According to what you wrote, you didn't use any of the trick shots for Grapple, Disarm, and Trip (obviously, you just took the Improved Trip feat).  I didn't think it made sense to have a Bull Rush trick, since who would ever attempt a bull rush with a ranged weapon...


I still kinda feel that way.  I mean, if you're a Hulking Hurler and you're throwing halflings, trees, or tarrasques (maybe Tarrasque-Chucks (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19565390/3d4_damage!_Ill_buy_that_for_a_feat!&post_num=100#332578426)? (you're welcome :cool)) at people, sure you'd want to bull rush, but otherwise, it doesn't really make sense.  I mean, Bull Rush with an arrow?  Or a thrown dagger?  I dunno.


...ANYWAY...

So, what to do about said broken-ness?  I don't wanna get rid of And Your Little Dog Too, since it's full of awesome, but that's the one causing the problem.  Suggestions?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: sirpercival on June 25, 2012, 08:46:43 AM
Bull rushing with a ranged weapon is awesome.  You can shoot an arrow at someone and knock them off a cliff, for example.  Wheeeee.

AYLDT is not actually the problem.  Sure it lets you do two at once, but you can just do one without it and still take somebody out, plus you can trip like the entire battlefield.  It's a power boost, but on a smaller order of magnitude than the rest of the schtick.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on June 25, 2012, 02:15:11 PM
I don't see how that build is actually abusing Sniper at all.

In fact, it could use Master Thrower levels to the same affect quicker, though at a shorter range.

Really it's abusing BBS and Dungeoncrasher synergy and using Sniper (or MT) to make that more effective.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: sirpercival on June 25, 2012, 02:31:43 PM
The reason sniper is necessary is the threatening at range.  Normally you wouldn't threaten so you couldn't make the later-on attacks, at least via my understanding.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on June 25, 2012, 04:00:06 PM
The reason sniper is necessary is the threatening at range.  Normally you wouldn't threaten so you couldn't make the later-on attacks, at least via my understanding.

Ah, I see.

But, IIRC, forced movement does not provoke AoOs unless specifically called out as doing so?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: sirpercival on June 25, 2012, 04:01:58 PM
It's not about AoOs.  Take, for example, a normal Knockback Dungeoncrasher.  You golf some poor shlub into someone else and get a trip attack against both.  However, if you can't reach them (i.e., aren't threatening them), you can't follow up with Improved Trip.  The sniper lets you threaten them at any range as long as you've hit them the previous round, so you can always follow up.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on June 25, 2012, 05:08:57 PM
Then you're only gaining two extra attacks (one improved trip attack from each, though each does hit both targets), and this isn't broken at all, especially when you're sinking so many levels into such a niche scenario.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: sirpercival on June 25, 2012, 05:18:49 PM
Then you're only gaining two extra attacks (one improved trip attack from each, though each does hit both targets), and this isn't broken at all, especially when you're sinking so many levels into such a niche scenario.

Not so.  Those attacks trigger Knockback again and can propagate outward to other enemies.  Nothing says you can't bull rush a prone creature.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on June 25, 2012, 05:31:33 PM
Then you're only gaining two extra attacks (one improved trip attack from each, though each does hit both targets), and this isn't broken at all, especially when you're sinking so many levels into such a niche scenario.

Not so.  Those attacks trigger Knockback again and can propagate outward to other enemies.  Nothing says you can't bull rush a prone creature.

Sure, you knock them back again with the second attack, but you do not trigger additional trips so no additional attacks from improved trip.

If you argument is that you can use this to chain knock down a HORDE of very weak creatures, then I'll point you to a myriad of other ways to more easily and with less investment deal with many multiple weak enemies, including again Master Thrower paired with BBS and Dungeoncrasher; doubling all attacks with Palm Throw and hitting two opponents with each through Two with One Blow (already quadrupling attacks before even adding in trips) and in only 3 levels of MT instead of six in Sniper. For 5 MT levels he can do it all as touch attacks.

This is an incredibly niche scenario and is not overpowered at all, especially considering the other options for dealing with that same niche.

That said, there's still room in your example build for 3 levels of Master Thrower, and you'd be approaching a great way to handle a massive army of weak creatures by slamming each rank into the next.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: ariasderros on October 24, 2012, 05:38:15 PM
I realize this is some serious Necro, but:

A player is thinking about being one of these in a campaign I'm starting, so I have some questions & comments about some of the abilities.

Light Step: When you reference "broken terrain" are you referring to "difficult terrain"?

Cunning Veil: Why Competence? If you are trying to get decent Hide, you will, by default, go for Greater Shadow, Shadowsilk armor. IMO, this would be much better left untyped. Much like how a Darkstalker Factotum gets Int to Hide. No reason for the Factotum to be better at using Hide than a Sniper.

Insightful Action [feat]: Why only 1/2 Wis? Yondalla's Sense adds full Wis.

Various Trick Shot abilities: Ones that have limited uses (e.g. Wis mod per encounter) should have the rule of uses being declared before attacks are rolled, as well as whether the ability use is used up if the attack fails.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Drammor on October 25, 2012, 03:12:33 PM
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on October 25, 2012, 05:33:48 PM
I realize this is some serious Necro
No problem.  This is the perfect time of year for such things. 

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSaCSj-O5QvEOb8yQeiY2avjh-cUztrTeGlInfPdOki84YYXjs-sQ)

Quote
Light Step: When you reference "broken terrain" are you referring to "difficult terrain"?
Yup.  Fixed.

Quote
Cunning Veil: Why Competence? If you are trying to get decent Hide, you will, by default, go for Greater Shadow, Shadowsilk armor. IMO, this would be much better left untyped. Much like how a Darkstalker Factotum gets Int to Hide. No reason for the Factotum to be better at using Hide than a Sniper.
Quote from: FireInTheSky
Cunning Veil (Ex):  A Sniper of 7th level may apply her Wisdom modifier as a bonus to her Hide check.
Better?


Quote
Insightful Action [feat]: Why only 1/2 Wis? Yondalla's Sense adds full Wis.
Hmm...  Full WisMod seems like too much to me.  I mean, for a high-op character, a +10 mod isn't that hard.  And Imp Init is already one of the best feats in the game.  (And just because Yondalla's Sense exists doesn't mean I have to agree with it :) )  I dunno.  Does anyone else have thoughts on this?


Quote
Various Trick Shot abilities: Ones that have limited uses (e.g. Wis mod per encounter) should have the rule of uses being declared before attacks are rolled, as well as whether the ability use is used up if the attack fails.
Good point.  I added this wording to all of those:
Quote
A use of this ability must be declared before the attack roll is made, and the use is expended regardless of the result.



@Drammor: When I look at the table I made on my computer, there's no problem...



I also cleaned up/changed wording on some trick shots (Two Birds with One Arrow, Weak Spot, Lights Out, Critical Shot, Called Shot).
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: ariasderros on October 26, 2012, 03:11:14 PM
Quote
Insightful Action [feat]: Why only 1/2 Wis? Yondalla's Sense adds full Wis.
Hmm...  Full WisMod seems like too much to me.  I mean, for a high-op character, a +10 mod isn't that hard.  And Imp Init is already one of the best feats in the game.  (And just because Yondalla's Sense exists doesn't mean I have to agree with it :) )  I dunno.  Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Nah. I agree with your analysis. Heck, +10 would be mid-op. Mailman gets +16 w/o really trying.

I will say that I also agree with Demo Shot being (Su), all I can think of is if I got hit in the head for (1d8+2d4+Str?) damage, that seeing an arrow sticking out of me would be quite scary.  :p
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on January 29, 2013, 11:39:47 PM
I just updated this to include the changes I made over on Rule of Cool (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,773.0.html).

Changes include:
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on March 18, 2013, 11:44:49 PM
Idea for a new Trick Shot (based on an old favorite (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/martial-study--1879/)):

Martial Shot
Prerequisite: Sniper Level 4
Benefit: Choose one of the following martial disciplines: Diamond Arrow (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?193578-Bo9S-Archery-schools), Falcon's Eye (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8103296), Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10640971&postcount=7), Heaven's Arc (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7219.msg110653#msg110653), Solar Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193295), Striking Eagle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8364949&postcount=3), or True Arrow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7780236&postcount=379).  Select one maneuver from the chosen discipline for every 4 Sniper levels (round down), ignoring all prerequisites except Initiator Level.  Sniper levels count as full Initiator Levels for the purposes of maneuvers gained with this Trick Shot only.  You can use each of these maneuvers once per encounter.  If you later gain levels in a class granting a maneuver recovery mechanism, that mechanism cannot be used to recover maneuvers gained with this Trick Shot.
Special: This Trick can be taken multiple times, each time choosing a different discipline.  Maneuvers learned with this trick may be used to satisfy prerequisites.



Thoughts?  Ideas for a name?

Edit: Changed the wording under Special.


EDIT:  Added.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 07, 2013, 01:04:23 PM
Added a feat:

Pinpoint Aim (courtesy of Garryl)
Prerequisites: Precise Shot
Benefit: When making a ranged attack, you may ignore your size modifier to attack rolls (if negative) and your target's size modifier to AC (if positive).
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on July 26, 2013, 11:18:55 PM
Fixed a couple formatting issues that had been bugging me.

Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.
Quote
Weak Spot:
Prerequisites: Sharp Focus
Benefit: A number of times per encounter equal to the Sniper’s Class Level or Wisdom Modifier, whichever is smaller, a Sniper may make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal ranged attack.  A use of this ability must be declared before the roll is made, and the use is expended regardless of the result.
Special: This trick cannot be used in conjunction with spells/maneuvers/powers/similar which require ranged attack rolls. This trick can only be taken once.



Question: compared to Light Step, is Demoralizing Shot basically an auto-take? If so, should I change anything? Options are:
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on July 28, 2013, 12:38:13 PM
Fixed a couple formatting issues that had been bugging me.

Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.

I don't personally think those were issues at all. Requires 4 levels of a non casting class hurt, as does wisdom bonus limit if you're not a wisdom caster.

Really, the only people I can see benefiting from it, at all, as a dip are Master Throwers and Stormguard Warriors, And even then they are likely taking the levels for other class features and probably picking up different tricks, the MT, for example, only gains Str to damage by using that trick instead of one his own.


Question: compared to Light Step, is Demoralizing Shot basically an auto-take?

No, they are desired by different niches.

But Light Step still does not scale nearly as well. So you give a mobility option that will feel good for those who want to prioritize mobility, but they will still know that the debuff based snipers are doing their focus better.

I'd suggest having later stages of Light Step scale earlier application the same way Demoralizing Shot does and have it offer other sides benefits, just like Demo Shot.

For example, at level2 Light, you aren't hindered by terrain, but level 2 Demo you debuff AND have a save bonus. So switch Light to unhindered AND either a hide/ms bonus (thematic to the class, so while those bonuses are elsewhere, a light step sniper will be better at them than a demo sniper) or a thing like being able to take 10 on climb and swim and such (focusing on other aspects of mobility).

At level 3 light, you give spider climb /day (/days suck anyway, remember) but you give Demo a boost to it's continuous debuff, making it an AoE. I'd suggest simply moving Spider Climb to /encounter, even just a small 1 (or 2, so you can get back down if the duration has expired) so they can always use their mobility at least once a fight.

Same issue at level 7. You up the Demo's debuff AND give the sniper his own boost. This might be a good level for the climb/swim boost for Light Step (pairing it with the water walking, preferably at a low /enc ;) ). Maybe a swim/climb speed 1/2 their base. Makes both spell likes still useful tactically, but also gives their mobility boosts in noncombat situations.

Demo then gets a HUGE buff at level 14. Lower effect on save and even enemies that are normally immune suffer your lower level. This turns the ability into "everyone you ever hit is shaken." I would suggest giving Light Step a similar always on lower ability. Perhaps Spider Climb, improving a third time on the initial climbing aspect. And make Air Walk /enc too, especially since you're now granting a 4th level spell at level 14.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on July 28, 2013, 01:26:38 PM
Fixed a couple formatting issues that had been bugging me.

Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.

I don't personally think those were issues at all. Requires 4 levels of a non casting class hurt, as does wisdom bonus limit if you're not a wisdom caster.

Really, the only people I can see benefiting from it, at all, as a dip are Master Throwers and Stormguard Warriors, And even then they are likely taking the levels for other class features and probably picking up different tricks, the MT, for example, only gains Str to damage by using that trick instead of one his own.

I guess the most potential for abuse would be gestalt, but then this would probably be way down there on the list of worries. I think on further reflection, I'm going to take it back out, because the spirit of the class is that all of your ranged attacks are awesome, regardless of the source.

Quote
Question: compared to Light Step, is Demoralizing Shot basically an auto-take?

No, they are desired by different niches.

But Light Step still does not scale nearly as well. So you give a mobility option that will feel good for those who want to prioritize mobility, but they will still know that the debuff based snipers are doing their focus better.

I'd suggest {things}

Good stuff. Okay, here's the original Light Step:
Quote
Light Step (Su): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties.  At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb (as per the 2nd level Spell) a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus, with a caster level equal to her class level.  At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk (as per the 3rd level Spell) a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus, with a caster level equal to her class level.  At 14th level, a Sniper can use Air Walk (as per the 4th level Spell) a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus, with a caster level equal to her class level.

And a potential scaled up version:
Quote
Light Step (Su): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties. In addition, she may move at her full speed with no penalty to Hide or Move Silently, and only takes a -10 penalty while running or charging.  At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb once per encounter per two Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level.  At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk once per encounter per three Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, she gains Climb and Swim speeds equal to half her base speed.  At 14th level, a Sniper can use Air Walk once per encounter per four Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, her Climb and Swim speeds increase to the same as her base speed, and she takes no penalty to Hide and Move Silently while running or charging.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on July 28, 2013, 04:27:10 PM
Light Step (Su): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties. In addition, she may move at her full speed with no penalty to Hide or Move Silently, and only takes a -10 penalty while running or charging.  At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb once per encounter per two Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level.  At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk once per encounter per three Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, she gains Climb and Swim speeds equal to half her base speed.  At 14th level, a Sniper can use Air Walk once per encounter per four Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, her Climb and Swim speeds increase to the same as her base speed, and she takes no penalty to Hide and Move Silently while running or charging.

That progression feels really good, yea. But I don't think you need to scale the encounter uses up by level. Each of these spells has a 10 minute per level duration (30 minutes when you first get Spider Climb). That many uses per encounter turns it into an at will ability. Just set them at once per encounter (or twice if you want them to be able to recast in case of dispel). This will make them have to plan individual uses around AMFs and such, but still allow them to have access to them in each fight even if having a marathon series of encounters.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on July 28, 2013, 07:20:42 PM
I was thinking more about the possibility of having the extra uses for other party members.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: phaedrusxy on July 28, 2013, 09:41:16 PM
Fixed a couple formatting issues that had been bugging me.

Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.
Quote
Weak Spot:
Prerequisites: Sharp Focus
Benefit: A number of times per encounter equal to the Sniper’s Class Level or Wisdom Modifier, whichever is smaller, a Sniper may make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal ranged attack.  A use of this ability must be declared before the roll is made, and the use is expended regardless of the result.
Special: This trick cannot be used in conjunction with spells/maneuvers/powers/similar which require ranged attack rolls. This trick can only be taken once.



Question: compared to Light Step, is Demoralizing Shot basically an auto-take? If so, should I change anything? Options are:
  • Do nothing, it's fine.
  • Scale back Demoralizing Shot in some way.
  • Scale up Light Step in some way.
  • Swap the two so that Demoralizing Shot is standard, and turn Light Step into an ACF.
  • Something else?
Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8662.0)? :P

For him, Light Step was a no brainer because he'll be flying 24/7. For some, it might not be.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on July 28, 2013, 11:02:02 PM
Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8662.0)? :P

For him, Light Step was a no brainer because he'll be flying 24/7. For some, it might not be.

:lol Actually, the part about Weak Spot I saw when looking at arias's character on Team MONSTER - not that he's taking advantage of it, just that it occurred to me then. Although, now that you mention it, I might need to put that sentence into Called Shot too.  :P

I didn't want to scale back Demoralizing Shot.  I guess I've been feeling like Light Step was underpowered for a little while. Hopefully this is a little better.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: phaedrusxy on July 28, 2013, 11:07:09 PM
Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8662.0)? :P

For him, Light Step was a no brainer because he'll be flying 24/7. For some, it might not be.

:lol Actually, the part about Weak Spot I saw when looking at arias's character on Team MONSTER - not that he's taking advantage of it, just that it occurred to me then. Although, now that you mention it, I might need to put that sentence into Called Shot too.  :P
Gah!  :banghead Although I mostly plan on using my Mindblades, which are technically none of the listed things...
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on July 28, 2013, 11:36:08 PM
Bleh, damn you for your attempts at balance. Were these "fixes" inspired by my character, Zeus in Heroes Reborn (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8662.0)? :P

For him, Light Step was a no brainer because he'll be flying 24/7. For some, it might not be.

:lol Actually, the part about Weak Spot I saw when looking at arias's character on Team MONSTER - not that he's taking advantage of it, just that it occurred to me then. Although, now that you mention it, I might need to put that sentence into Called Shot too.  :P
Gah!  :banghead Although I mostly plan on using my Mindblades, which are technically none of the listed things...
:hug  Don't worry.
Also added a clause to Weak Spot to make it not usable with, well, see below, cause it could have had unforeseen issues.
I don't personally think those were issues at all. Requires 4 levels of a non casting class hurt, as does wisdom bonus limit if you're not a wisdom caster.

Really, the only people I can see benefiting from it, at all, as a dip are Master Throwers and Stormguard Warriors, And even then they are likely taking the levels for other class features and probably picking up different tricks, the MT, for example, only gains Str to damage by using that trick instead of one his own.
I guess the most potential for abuse would be gestalt, but then this would probably be way down there on the list of worries. I think on further reflection, I'm going to take it back out, because the spirit of the class is that all of your ranged attacks are awesome, regardless of the source.

Phae, what do you think of the new & improved Light Step progression?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on July 29, 2013, 02:30:49 PM
I was thinking more about the possibility of having the extra uses for other party members.

Ah, sorry. I had just assumed they were castable only on the Sniper himself. Being able to cast them on others makes that progression work much better, definitely.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: phaedrusxy on July 29, 2013, 08:25:42 PM
Phae, what do you think of the new & improved Light Step progression?
Since I wasn't using it before, I'm not sure what changed. :P It looks pretty useful, but not as much as the multiple uses per encounter you had in an earlier quote I saw, particularly because you could spam those on other party members. I mean hell... Air Walk at 14th level isn't a big deal even if it is at will. At that point, you can afford an item to fly, burn through UMD scrolls/wands, etc.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on July 29, 2013, 09:23:05 PM
I was thinking more about the possibility of having the extra uses for other party members.

Ah, sorry. I had just assumed they were castable only on the Sniper himself. Being able to cast them on others makes that progression work much better, definitely.

Originally I was thinking that they would only be usable on the Sniper, but I like it better this way. I'll note that they're usable on others.

It looks pretty useful, but not as much as the multiple uses per encounter you had in an earlier quote I saw, particularly because you could spam those on other party members. I mean hell... Air Walk at 14th level isn't a big deal even if it is at will. At that point, you can afford an item to fly, burn through UMD scrolls/wands, etc.

How about Fly instead of Air Walk, but with a duration of 10min/lvl?

So the full ability would look like this:
Quote
Light Step (Ex/SpL): A Sniper of 2nd level can move through difficult terrain at her normal speed without incurring any penalties. In addition, she may move at her full speed with no penalty to Hide or Move Silently, and only takes a -10 penalty while running or charging.  At 3rd level, a Sniper can use Spider Climb once per encounter per two Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level.  At 7th level, a Sniper can use Water Walk once per encounter per three Sniper levels, with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, she gains Climb and Swim speeds equal to half her base speed.  At 14th level, a Sniper can use Fly once per encounter per four Sniper levels, except with a duration of 10 minutes per level, and with a caster level equal to her class level. In addition, her Climb and Swim speeds increase to be the same as her base speed, and she takes no penalty to Hide and Move Silently while running or charging. Uses of Spider Climb, Water Walk, and Fly may target willing allies in addition to the Sniper, and are spell-like abilities. All other benefits of Light Step are extraordinary.


EDIT: I put the updated version of Light Step (directly above) into the OP.

EDIT: Added something to Precise Shot about hitting the intended target, and not having to roll randomly.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on May 10, 2014, 03:14:18 PM
After hearing concerns from a few different people, I've made two changes:
  1. Aim damage is now 1dx/2 levels (rounded up) instead of 1dx/level
  2. Light Step SLAs are now /day instead of /encounter, with slightly more uses. 10min/level durations and /encounter abilities don't exactly mesh well.


EDIT: Modified the Double Jeopardy Trick Shot to increase the minimum area threatened to 1 range increment, or 30', whichever is smaller (in addition to threatening the squares of creatures hit in the previous round).

EDIT: Added a couple weapon proficiencies.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 25, 2015, 08:55:09 AM
Is Aim damage multiplied by criticals? Unlike SA, it doesn't specify that it isn't, but it seems almost for it to get multiplied. But if it isn't, then all the crit-improving trick shots seem... redundant.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on July 26, 2015, 01:30:38 PM
Ummm... I think I originally intended that it would be multiplied. But I don't remember for sure. Eldritch blast damage is multiplied, right? Since this class has such a narrow focus, it should probably be multiplied. Or do you think it would be too much at that point?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 26, 2015, 01:44:25 PM
Well, if it isn't, the crit stuff becomes a bit... weird. Yay, I can more regularly crit with my longbow? If it's only the base damage (and or any strength on a composite longbow) then it becomes a pointless thing over time, as the aim damage is more significant than the x3/x4 base damage. @_@
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on July 26, 2015, 02:43:29 PM
Is there any particular (good) reason that SA doesn't multiply?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2015, 07:09:19 PM
I have no idea. Maybe someone else should chip in?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on September 15, 2015, 04:53:06 AM
No real "good" reason precision damage doesn't multiply. The though of x4 crits from a TWF Rogue just seemed like a lot of dice to them when they made the decision.

And a lot of TO and high powered CO builds would throw out some CRAZY numbers messing high crit and high SA/skirmish builds.

But in a practical game its main effect would be for Fighters to feel even less useful.

Thematically I'm sure its justified as the precision damage already comes from specifically striking vulnerable spots or in a certain way and crits being essentially the same thing.

No reason your shot can't hit them through the eye instead of just in the head though.

So, again, by precedent, Aim damage should not be multiplied and will need a specific call out if it is (where you already say it doesn't count as precision for damage for immunities would be perfect, just say it is not precision damage, so bypasses immunities and is multiplied on a crit), but there's really no reason other than that precedent to limit it in this way.

Keep in mind though, a specific call out to multiply Aim damage on crits will be taken as many as OP, just because of that precedent.

A fitting compromise may be a Trick Shot, though some would expect it to be nerfed even then, perhaps to -1 crit multiplier (making it useless if you only have x2).

Me personally, I say go for it outright, especially after nerfing the damage anyway.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on September 15, 2015, 08:45:17 PM
Thanks, that's a really nice analysis.  :clap

And the Creator said, "Be fruitful and multiply ...your crit damage."
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: FireInTheSky on April 11, 2018, 09:16:29 PM
Yeah, yeah, gimme some of dat Thread Necro...


I was just reading through this again, and had a couple ideas for Epic Trick Shots:

Anyone have any other ideas?
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Maat Mons on April 12, 2018, 05:32:26 PM
Okay, I'm rehashing a 3-year-old argument here, but the rule is that bonus damage expressed as dice is not multiplied on a critical hit, but other bonus damage is.  Whether or not it's precision damage has nothing to do with it. 

I don't really object to making an exception.  But it should probably say "Unlike other bonus dice of damage above and beyond a weapon's base damage, the extra damage from this ability is multiplied on a critical hit." 

You can keep the bit about it not being revision damage if you like.  People would tend to assume it is, and there are lots of restrictions on precision damage. 

If you want create an ability that also allows sneak attacks and such to be multiplied on a critical hit, you could model it after the "burst" weapon abilities. 

Critical Precision

Prerequisite: Sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish class feature. 

Benefit: When you score a critical hit when using sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish, you deal even more damage.  For each extra +1d6 damage the ability normally adds, you add an additional +1d10 on a critical hit.  If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, the extra damage is instead +2d10 per +1d6 the ability normally adds.  If the weapon's critical multiplier is x4, the extra damage is instead +3d10 per +1d6 the ability normally adds.  (And so on, for higher critical multipliers.) 

Normal: The extra damage from sneak attack, sudden strike, and skirmish is not improved on a critical hit. 

Special: This extra damage does not apply to any creature that is immune to the base ability (sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish), unless you have some means of bypassing that immunity.  Likewise, creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits do not take this extra damage either, unless you have some means of bypassing their immunity to critical hits. 
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: EjoThims on April 15, 2018, 03:45:57 AM
Critical Precision

Prerequisite: Sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish class feature. 

Benefit: When you score a critical hit when using sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish, you deal even more damage.  For each extra +1d6 damage the ability normally adds, you add an additional +1d10 on a critical hit.  If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, the extra damage is instead +2d10 per +1d6 the ability normally adds.  If the weapon's critical multiplier is x4, the extra damage is instead +3d10 per +1d6 the ability normally adds.  (And so on, for higher critical multipliers.) 

Normal: The extra damage from sneak attack, sudden strike, and skirmish is not improved on a critical hit. 

Special: This extra damage does not apply to any creature that is immune to the base ability (sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish), unless you have some means of bypassing that immunity.  Likewise, creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits do not take this extra damage either, unless you have some means of bypassing their immunity to critical hits.

I very well may be stealing this...  :D
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: SorO_Lost on April 15, 2018, 11:33:06 AM
Benefit: When you score a critical hit when using sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish, you deal even more damage.  For each extra +1d6 damage the ability normally adds, you add an additional +1d10 on a critical hit.  If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, the extra damage is instead +2d10 per +1d6 the ability normally adds.  If the weapon's critical multiplier is x4, the extra damage is instead +3d10 per +1d6 the ability normally adds.  (And so on, for higher critical multipliers.)
I very well may be stealing this...  :D
The examples imply you use the d10 instead but the phasing of the ability says you add both.

Also imagine Karoti Resin turning 10d6 SA into 30d10 (165 avg) on something like a Keen Scimitar which has a 30% chance to Crit. Snag some levels in Disciple of Dispater to really pump your Crit chance and a level of Rogue to bypass SA immunity and Maat has created an a reliable ubercharger that doesn't need to charge anyone and can instead use Rapid Blitz to jog around the battle field killing everyone in a way an Iaisitsu Master wishes he could.

Edit - This also becomes pretty handy to replace the OP's Class too. Imagine a CL18 Hunter's Eye and Hunter's Mercy on a character using a Deadly Precision Assassinate Karoti Bow while wearing a Bracers of the Hunter, Rogue's Vest, and Gloves of the Shadow Hand. Their next shot from a bow is automatically a Critical Hit with a +214 damage bonus. It's a one hit kill sniper shot that any Ranger can employ.
Title: Re: Sniper [3.5 Base Class]
Post by: Maat Mons on April 16, 2018, 03:27:07 AM
The examples imply you use the d10 instead but the phasing of the ability says you add both.

I meant for the d10s to be in addition to the d6s.  Sorry if I worded that wrong.  Actually, I was copying the wording of Flaming Burst.  Does that weapon quality not give both the +1d6 and the +d10 on a critical hit? 

And here I was only worrying I'd screw up the interaction with that feat that converts sneak attack dice to d8s. 



Also imagine Karoti Resin turning 10d6 SA into 30d10 (165 avg) on something like a Keen Scimitar which has a 30% chance to Crit.

Kaorti resin has no market price, so I'm not sure how to reliably get a weapon made of it. 



Snag some levels in Disciple of Dispater to really pump your Crit chance

Disciple of Dispater only boosts the crit chance of weapons made of iron or steel. 



and a level of Rogue to bypass SA immunity

I may have worded it incorrectly, but I meant it to work such that the halving of your dice pool from Penetrating Strike would carry over to this feat as well.  So, for example, if you have sneak attack +10d6, and Penetrating Strike is cutting that down to +5d6, the feat would only add +5d10 (for a weapon with a x2 multiplier), not +10d10. 

Also, I endeavored to word the feat such that, in order to get the extra damage, you not only needed the capacity to deal sneak attack damage, but also the capacity to deal extra damage with a critical hit.  Penetrating Strikes only takes care of half of that.