Author Topic: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)  (Read 15982 times)

Offline Captnq

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Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« on: January 19, 2015, 12:09:55 AM »
The Handbook is here:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15276.msg270048#msg270048

Go to town. All comments welcome.
I might ignore you, but all comments welcome
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2015, 12:26:44 AM »
If you wonder why it's not very well polished and spiffy, well, maybe that's because the EVD version is much better and I don't feel like wasting my time on making the webpage look better. It's close enough. Get the EVD if you want shine and sparkle.
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Offline Endarire

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2015, 04:45:23 PM »
What are your thoughts on going Erudite/Thrallherd?

Overall, the Erudite (especially the StP Erudite) feels like a "Let's work things out together between player and GM" class, regardless of what options you seek.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2015, 02:34:07 PM »
Yay awesome sauce !!


... Editor: Hi Ho, Keeds! The is a Christmas gift for my wife. Merry X-mas, An erudite handbook just for you!

My kitty avatar finds this to be the most romantic thing it has ever read ...  :love


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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2015, 06:43:58 PM »
There's another interesting feat for Erudites only (down at the bottom).
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

Powergrace [Psionic]
You are more resistant to psionic powers than most people are.
Prerequisite: Must possess a repertoire of powers.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all saves against psionic powers and psi-like abilities.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times, adding an additional +1 bonus.

That's rather delicious for i.p.proofing.

**

Carnivore prefered Carmindine over Tashalatora for Psions, but I forget now where he analysed that ... :plot ... maybe it's buried somewhere in the oldest wotc Psion guide.

The 6 Psion Disciplines can take their specific acfs ... I'd assume (?) an Erudite would need one of the Favored Disciplines to do that.  Hadn't though about that 'til just now, so the idea has not been vetted.

Psychometabolism taking the True Healer acf to get Life Mantle, bypasses any need for Mantled Erudite, but still allows the usual decent psyref looping benefits.  This is most likely the only way to get Discipline and Mantled and Spell To Power, all at the same time.


**


edit

Which spells to take?  FrankT had a couple of threads, while Wizard based, StP Erudites could hack and spam.
(note: there's some overlap between the basic Erudite list, an these)
Killing ---> http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=31950&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Utility ---> http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=19949
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 05:27:11 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2015, 09:27:48 AM »
Added Power lists
Discipline lists
Arcane Spells by source of lowest casting level possible.
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Offline sjTaylor

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2015, 11:23:31 PM »
In Myth 2 it mentions versatile spellcaster as being able to convert divine to arcane, but versatile spellcaster is the one that lets you use 2 spell slots of a lower level to cast a spell that you know. So something like two 1st lvl slots to cast scorching ray.

What you're thinking about is called 'Southern Magician' IIRC.

Also, what's an ASA? The context being "Still, if you can pick up armor, stock up on ASAs and armor crystals"

Offline kitep

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2015, 12:33:46 PM »
Also, what's an ASA? The context being "Still, if you can pick up armor, stock up on ASAs and armor crystals"

ASA = armor special abilities

Offline nijineko

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2015, 07:00:21 PM »
What are your thoughts on going Erudite/Thrallherd?

Overall, the Erudite (especially the StP Erudite) feels like a "Let's work things out together between player and GM" class, regardless of what options you seek.

i think i built my thrallherd as an erudite, but i can't recall for sure.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2015, 05:23:22 PM »
Worst case scenario for StP is the DM has already
gimped power access to the Psi side, but then goes ahead
and gimps Arcane spell access too. 
As in:  "We have no NPCs here Wiz, Sorc or otherwise".
Thrallherd's 2 cohorts (and killable) is a work around.
I think the Tier +2 status of Thrallherd is the key feature.

My money bags idea, is another possible work around.
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=13343.msg229189#msg229189
It's a weakness of StP that it could need something like this.


EDIT
figured I'd stash this link here, for lack of a better plan, I just found it
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060428a
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 04:33:40 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2015, 04:24:58 AM »
It was about time someone did this handbook. I think the "claw your way up to the top of Tier 1" StP ACF is what held people away from this class for so long.

You say "So if you have a bunch of power stones with psionic powers in them, you can take a round of physical contact, make your psicraft check, then manifest it next round. You can do this all day long, as long as you are willing to take one round to "understand" the power before you use it" but you forgot to add the some important words to the end of that last sentence: "from the stone, flushing it." Otherwise any old wilder could just run around with 1 powerstone of each power and "manifest them normally," ignoring the entire intent of spells known (which Erudite doesn't have to worry about much anyways). This also clears up your later confusion. See CP105 if you need proof.

Offline Endarire

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2016, 09:36:27 PM »
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 09:38:21 PM by Endarire »

Offline Chemus

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2016, 12:36:59 PM »
I know that this is an old HB, but the 2nd post says that you get monk abilities from Tashalatora. This should be noted as debatable, as the feat says that the abilities are granted by the monk class. That said, a monk's belt obviates the need for monk levels, though you don't get the flurry ability from the belt alone.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2016, 04:39:22 PM »
The Monk's Belt is debatable too.

Tas wants things from the Monk Class, the Belt however says you gain some stuff of a 5th level Monk that functions just like a Monk's stuff. It may function like it, but obviously it isn't and the Belt is what granting the abilities. Think of it like it doesn't say you are a Monk, to be treated as a Monk, that you gain those benefits as if you were a Monk, or gain the Class Features of a Monk, etc. All of those are assumptions of what the text could mean but it's not what the text says.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2016, 12:10:44 AM »
Agreed with all three of the above. Did my previous reasoning ever get included? I still don't see the StP archive in the handbook (yes it's fully quoted, but its easier to scan for a link). Your handbook doesn't approve of XP drainage caused by spells (a legitimate problem), but then treats flushing gp down the toilet by using scroll/stones to get around the UP/D limitation. Some DMs would have a problem with that, but I think you have the RAW of it correct. Still, GP drain isn't cool. Just like XP (170k), you only get a certain amount of gold (760k) by the time your party is ECL20.

Concerning metaconcert, when the shared entity manifests a power, all participants are manifesting the power in proportion to their PP given. A participant isn't a participant if they don't volunteer any power points. Therefore this doesn't help Erudites get around unique powers per day (they are still manifesting the same power everyone else in the group is when the concert 'plays').

Themz broken StP Erudies spend 7 / 9 pp on Shadow Conjuration / Evocation in order to caster a 3rd 4th level wizard conjuration (summoning) or (creation) / 4th level wizard evocation or 15 / 9 pp for an (greater) / arcane fusion to get a 4th + 7th / 1st + 4th level sorcerer spell combo. Without these two groupings, StP wouldn't be so bad.

But you know what makes StP really bad? Dweomer Of Transference + level adjusters = pp recharge. Even after I fixed it to only apply to the caster's spells, its a problem child. This spell is supposed to be a 'I charge up my psion buddy' but StP makes it "I charge up myself!"

Lastly, there is something I'd like to draw your attention to. DMs may have to adjudicate whether only base classes are meant when it says, "If a character with erudite levels gains at least as many levels in another psionic class as he has in his erudite class, he permanently loses the ability to add additional powers". I personally don't think it means PrCs, unless you atleast can count "+1 level of existing manifesting class" to bump up the Erudite number on that comparison. RAW, though... opinions?


Offline Chemus

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2016, 01:13:35 AM »
I forgot about replying to your post, sorry Soro.

You are correct that the belt is still debatable, but as it directly grants '...the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk [, which] functions just like the monk’s AC bonus,' it's easier to argue with your DM that there's a source and some levels for Tashalatora to work with.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2016, 05:53:45 PM »
Agreed with all three of the above. Did my previous reasoning ever get included? I still don't see the StP archive in the handbook (yes it's fully quoted, but its easier to scan for a link). Your handbook doesn't approve of XP drainage caused by spells (a legitimate problem), but then treats flushing gp down the toilet by using scroll/stones to get around the UP/D limitation. Some DMs would have a problem with that, but I think you have the RAW of it correct. Still, GP drain isn't cool. Just like XP (170k), you only get a certain amount of gold (760k) by the time your party is ECL20.

Powerstones are a good idea early, but yeah overall it's weak.
I think the DMag Greater alt Curse to delete the Uniques class feature, is the best tactic only susceptible to Dispels.

Quote
Concerning metaconcert, when the shared entity manifests a power, all participants are manifesting the power in proportion to their PP given. A participant isn't a participant if they don't volunteer any power points. Therefore this doesn't help Erudites get around unique powers per day (they are still manifesting the same power everyone else in the group is when the concert 'plays').
Personally I've ignored Metaconcert

Quote
Themz broken StP Erudies spend 7 / 9 pp on Shadow Conjuration / Evocation in order to caster a 3rd 4th level wizard conjuration (summoning) or (creation) / 4th level wizard evocation or 15 / 9 pp for an (greater) / arcane fusion to get a 4th + 7th / 1st + 4th level sorcerer spell combo. Without these two groupings, StP wouldn't be so bad.

Erudite's loooove the versatility on the Shadow series.
T.O. arcane fusion tricks are T.O. ;  I see your fusion loop and raise you Synchronicity.

Quote
But you know what makes StP really bad? Dweomer Of Transference + level adjusters = pp recharge. Even after I fixed it to only apply to the caster's spells, its a problem child. This spell is supposed to be a 'I charge up my psion buddy' but StP makes it "I charge up myself!"

You know I've never uttered a bad word about psi Recharge.
I think the only recharge set-up that isn't borkt, is the late level Soulknife bag-o-rats spamming 1s only, one.  That and the Divine Mind in the hands of a newb.

Quote
Lastly, there is something I'd like to draw your attention to. DMs may have to adjudicate whether only base classes are meant when it says, "If a character with erudite levels gains at least as many levels in another psionic class as he has in his erudite class, he permanently loses the ability to add additional powers". I personally don't think it means PrCs, unless you atleast can count "+1 level of existing manifesting class" to bump up the Erudite number on that comparison. RAW, though... opinions?

I did argue the point with CapQ on his predecessor thread.
I was hanging around the old wotc psi board when CPsi came out,
and the "Erudite Only not even prcs"  won the day rather quickly.

I think CapQ's p.o.v. is since you can learn powers(spells)
like a Wizard, you just go ahead and do that.
If a homegame world includes plenty of magic marts, sure.
And of course the StP benefits more than the other Erudites.

Personally I think Wizards are less likely to share or "share"
with Psi guys, and you lose the EK learning PsyRef mini-loop
which can also be done with retraining (less aggressively).
Non StP's have to weigh the consequences carefully.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Erudite Handbook (Discussion Thread)
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2016, 04:42:34 PM »
Wild Soul PrC in CMage, could work adapted via Magic Mantle.
I read the "Spontaneous Spells" ability, as bypassing the Uniques limit.
With the slow roll-in timing, it really isn't a problem at all.
Decent flavor too.

**

Chemus + SorO about the Monk Tash stuff trick ... yeah I never
bought that on a r.a.i. level.  I get the argument that it could work.
Lycanthromancer pimped that one a whole bunch.
There are some abilities that have language like : 
This Stacks , xor if you don't already have the ability you gain it.
Tash and Monk's belt didn't have anything like that kind of language.
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