Author Topic: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread  (Read 11028 times)

Offline Tr011

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The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« on: February 05, 2013, 06:39:52 AM »
Since this is my first handbook, I might need some help.

Offline Empirate

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 08:29:43 AM »
Nice stuff, and a good resource to draw on! Good work so far, but I hope some criticism is all right: for a handbook, might I suggest more formatting? Like put in some color-coding, to make it easier to judge which are good, which are great, which are mediocre, and which are terrible options? After all, you can't just take everything that'd make you a better tripper and run with it, there's always a cost (if only an opportunity cost in some cases). Also, put in some more explanations for how stuff works, what stuff synergizes well and why, etc. You know, make it a handbook instead of a long list of stuff to maybe look up if you want to play a tripper.



On to content: I've been toying with the idea of a Paimon-based Binder tripping build for a while, but haven't got anything down yet. Still, the idea of dancing past all close foes with a move, tripping all of them and delivering an Improved Trip followup to each of them for good measure, kind of appeals to me. Bonus points if you can position yourself to get AoOs when they get up, then use Paimon's Whirlwind Attack on all of them after they predictably converged on you (tripping them all again...). Multi-trip ftw!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 08:31:51 AM by Empirate »

Offline InnaBinder

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 09:15:28 AM »
Nice to see a resource for this, as I've always enjoyed Trip-centered melee types.

It's not as strong as having a reach weapon, but if you've extended your character's reach in other ways, the flail seems worth at least a passing mention.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 02:18:12 PM by InnaBinder »
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 02:08:45 PM »
In addition to the spiked chain, you might want to add the Kusari-gama (DMG 145) and Spinning Sword (Secrets of Sarlona 136).  Like the spiked chain they both have reach without the dead zone.  They're also both exotic weapons.

Shock Trooper might have an honorable mention because one of the maneuvers (Domino Rush) allows tripping two opponents at the same time and neither get the chance to trip you back.

Also, half-ogre was updated to LA +2 in Races of Destiny, so it's an update to the SS version.

Offline Ithamar

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 02:25:17 PM »
Chain Lash from Savage Species is like the spiked chain, but deals bludgeoning damage instead.  (Or it can be used as a double weapon for TWF'ing, but then it loses the reach.)

Offline Tr011

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 04:41:16 PM »
Thanks for your feedback guys, I try to take your advise. I implied the weapons you named, although some of them are pretty special. For me personally, the flail was impressive, compared to other trip weapons this is really viable if you somehow don't need reach too hard (i.e. if you can change the weapons when the enemy is within your "inner" reach).

Offline Empirate

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 05:11:36 PM »
The best trip weapon IMO is the Guisarme, if you combine it with armor spikes: it has reach, it is two-handed for good damage, and most importantly it doesn't take a precious feat for EWP. For pure tripping, all the Spiked Chain has over it is that you don't need separate armor spikes - but the damage differential is small, and the Guisarme even has better damage on a crit, so you're not getting much for that EWP feat. Unless you want to focus heavily on Dex (to get as many AoOs/round as you can), and want to use Weapon Finesse to full effect. But IMO it's better to focus on Str (for more successful trip attempts) and save the feats.

You're missing the High Sword, Low Axe weapon style feat from Complete Warrior, unless I'm tripping (heh...). Lots of prereqs, but it lets you trip rather effectively while TWFing, which is unique if you don't go for those stupid, stupid Kusari-Gamas. It's also a key component in this classic and extremely classy build, done by Caelic.

Offline Tr011

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 05:47:57 PM »
You're missing the High Sword, Low Axe weapon style feat from Complete Warrior, unless I'm tripping (heh...). Lots of prereqs, but it lets you trip rather effectively while TWFing, which is unique if you don't go for those stupid, stupid Kusari-Gamas. It's also a key component in this classic and extremely classy build, done by Caelic.
Ah thanks, gonna implement that. And a link to Jack will go in the example-section. The EWP can be an advantage if using Exotic Weapon Master or Exocist, that's why I prefer taking it. Also, a Warblade might argue to use Aptitude for EWP to use any weapon after 1 hour of training if he took the feat once.

/edit: I made two example builds, but they didn't went well imo, if you got some better/more interesting build feel free to post it.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 07:00:10 PM by Tr011 »

Offline bruceleeroy

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2013, 08:19:09 PM »
Quote
So if you manage to have him within your reach, but you are not in his reach, he is pretty much screwed. If he wants to cast a spell, AoO him for major damage to interrupt his spell and if he wants to get up trip him down again with the AoO you get.
Emphasis mine.


Doesn't work like that. When someone is standing up from being tripped, they are currently prone. You cannot trip a prone creature. The only thing you can do it hit them again.



Normally, I would be reading this, open the reply box, decide what I had to say didn't need said, and close out. But this is just too ridiculous.



Offline Captnq

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2013, 01:33:27 PM »
Here's a complete list of all the weapons that allow you to trip. Did I miss any?

(click to show/hide)

Note, Whatever comments you make on these weapons I'm going to steal and add to the individual weapon entries in my weapon handbook. I'm a shameless thief, and vat-damn proud of it.

Side note, I sent the complete entries to Tr011 so he/she/it/they did not have to track down each entry, but didn't bother to spam here. Just post here any weapons I missed and I'll send the full entry to Tr011
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2013, 04:43:28 PM »
<snip>
On to content: I've been toying with the idea of a Paimon-based Binder tripping build for a while, but haven't got anything down yet. Still, the idea of dancing past all close foes with a move, tripping all of them and delivering an Improved Trip followup to each of them for good measure, kind of appeals to me. Bonus points if you can position yourself to get AoOs when they get up, then use Paimon's Whirlwind Attack on all of them after they predictably converged on you (tripping them all again...). Multi-trip ftw!

Too late!: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9321125&postcount=154

It's probably in my Top Ten IC builds list.
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Offline bruceleeroy

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2013, 02:15:06 AM »
Here's a complete list of all the weapons that allow you to trip. Did I miss any?

(click to show/hide)

Note, Whatever comments you make on these weapons I'm going to steal and add to the individual weapon entries in my weapon handbook. I'm a shameless thief, and vat-damn proud of it.

Side note, I sent the complete entries to Tr011 so he/she/it/they did not have to track down each entry, but didn't bother to spam here. Just post here any weapons I missed and I'll send the full entry to Tr011

You missed the rope dart/meteor hammer.
Normally, I would be reading this, open the reply box, decide what I had to say didn't need said, and close out. But this is just too ridiculous.



Offline Amechra

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 03:54:47 AM »
Perfect Clarity of Mind and Body: A tactical feat from ToB, gives you a +4 morale bonus to Trip attempts if you win a contested Duel of Wills check (Intimidate or Concentration) for one round.

Another option in that Tactical feat allows you to make a DC 20 Intimidate check the round after tripping someone to give them a -2 penalty on attack rolls for one round. It's a free action, so it doesn't cost you anything, so...
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Offline Tr011

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2013, 08:25:24 AM »
@bruceleeroy: Ah thanks for pointing out, I corrected it.

Here's a complete list of all the weapons that allow you to trip. Did I miss any?

(click to show/hide)

Note, Whatever comments you make on these weapons I'm going to steal and add to the individual weapon entries in my weapon handbook. I'm a shameless thief, and vat-damn proud of it.

Side note, I sent the complete entries to Tr011 so he/she/it/they did not have to track down each entry, but didn't bother to spam here. Just post here any weapons I missed and I'll send the full entry to Tr011
No problem, take whatever you want. I'll include the list and check the sources, lucky there's a List of Weapons out there that states sources.

@123456789blaaa: I'll include the link under examples.

Perfect Clarity of Mind and Body: A tactical feat from ToB, gives you a +4 morale bonus to Trip attempts if you win a contested Duel of Wills check (Intimidate or Concentration) for one round.

Another option in that Tactical feat allows you to make a DC 20 Intimidate check the round after tripping someone to give them a -2 penalty on attack rolls for one round. It's a free action, so it doesn't cost you anything, so...
That one is already included.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2013, 01:21:41 PM »
You might want to include Knight 3's ability Bulwark of Defense.  It makes any square you threaten difficult terrain, meaning opponents can't take 5-foot steps and thus will provoke an AoO for moving.

Keep in mind the Dragon 313 version of Half-ogre is a template and not a race, so you'll need to have it separate from the SS and RoD versions.  Also, I'd recommend giving different ratings for the SS and RoD versions anyway in case someone looks at it and thinks +2 LA kinda sucks and would rather go with a published +1 LA source.

Also, you can't make Tentacled Hide armor out of mithral because it's not metal.

Exotic Weapon Master has a Flurry ability that can be used with spiked chains.  Add it onto a Knock-down build and things simply get silly.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 01:29:56 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Tr011

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2013, 02:52:25 PM »
You might want to include Knight 3's ability Bulwark of Defense.  It makes any square you threaten difficult terrain, meaning opponents can't take 5-foot steps and thus will provoke an AoO for moving.

Keep in mind the Dragon 313 version of Half-ogre is a template and not a race, so you'll need to have it separate from the SS and RoD versions.  Also, I'd recommend giving different ratings for the SS and RoD versions anyway in case someone looks at it and thinks +2 LA kinda sucks and would rather go with a published +1 LA source.

Also, you can't make Tentacled Hide armor out of mithral because it's not metal.

Exotic Weapon Master has a Flurry ability that can be used with spiked chains.  Add it onto a Knock-down build and things simply get silly.
Thanks for reminding me of the Knight, it's a pretty nice combo with that one ToB stance. The Half-ogre is kind of difficult: Most people agree that the RoD is the only one that can be used, but I'll include the other versions as well. You're right about the tentacle hide, since it's the skin of animals you can't make it mithral, was a fault of my bad english that I got this one wrong. There are several ways to get flurry with a spiked chain, I don't think this is linked enough to tripping to mention it.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2013, 03:02:13 PM »
The reason I mentioned it was you already had Exotic Weapon Master up.  I figured you might as well add on the flurry note since the full attack action doesn't have to be against a single opponent, thus a flurry can be used to strike multiple opponents and trip all of them with Knock-Down.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 03:04:13 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Arz

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2013, 07:38:36 PM »
I don't think you need to devote so much space to reach and AoO other than ref some other info that is likely more complete. Instead you might want to use that space talking about alternate tripping means (ex: Underfoot  Combat, etc) and how they also might be improved.

Also you missed;
Cobalt Expertise (MoI, feat) +e insight bonus to atk, check, and misc others.

Also think you rated incarnum rather low considering they have a range rather than flat bonus.

Offline bruceleeroy

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2013, 10:10:10 PM »
http://dndtools.eu/feats/stormwrack--87/curling-wave-strike--498/

A mediocre feat, but you should include it for completeness sake.

Also, the Trip (ex) ability that wolves get can also be accessed through the Skin of the Construct Feat. Unusual for a trip-build to have access to Astral Construct, but Ardent 1 can get it, so why not?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 10:13:48 PM by bruceleeroy »
Normally, I would be reading this, open the reply box, decide what I had to say didn't need said, and close out. But this is just too ridiculous.



Offline Captnq

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Re: The Tripping Handbook - Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2013, 04:19:14 PM »
Oh, here.

AWESOME SMITE [TACTICAL]
BATTLE JUMP [FIGHTER, GENERAL]
COBALT EXPERTISE [INCARNUM]
CONFOUND THE BIG FOLK [TACTICAL]
CURLING WAVE STRIKE []
DEFENSIVE THROW [GENERAL]
ELUSIVE TARGET [TACTICAL]
EXPERT TACTICIAN [GENERAL]
GREAT THROW [GENERAL]
HIGH SWORD LOW AXE [STYLE]
HYENA TRIBE HUNTER [REGIONAL]
IMPROVED TRIP [GENERAL]
KNOCK-DOWN [GENERAL]
PERFECT CLARITY OF MIND AND BODY []
SAND SNARE []
SHIELD CHARGE [GENERAL]
SHIELD SLING []
SHOCK TROOPER [TACTICAL]
UNDERMOUNTAIN TACTICS [TACTICAL]
VAE SCHOOL [STYLE]
WOLF BERSERKER [FIGHTER, GENERAL]

Every trip related feat that isn't in eberron or dragon magazine.

BTW, would you mind breaking up the feats that help with trip from the size increasers? Thanks.

Oh, maybe sort by alphabetical order?
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
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