Author Topic: A leveling system for a 3.5e-like game.  (Read 5101 times)

Offline X-Codes

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A leveling system for a 3.5e-like game.
« on: August 11, 2013, 03:57:29 AM »
Just something that's been stuck in my head.  2e's multiclassing system got stuck in my head, first, and then the Experience as a River idea came up soon after.  Then the two ideas got awkward in my brain and something strange came out that I kinda want to share, mostly because I'm interested in the potential consequences.

Let's make an assumption, first, that all classes can potentially result in T2 characters iff you have complete mastery of the system and leverage it to full effect, T3 for more typical optimization, T4 if you really don't optimize at all, and T5 if you are either really bad or actively trying to make your character terrible.  T1 and T6 characters are generally not possible.  For example, there aren't really Wizards in the game, but there are Beguilers, and Beguilers can potentially expand their versatility much easier than they can as written and might find a devastating spell combo that there is nearly impossible to defend against.  It's not that the game doesn't reward system mastery, it's that there are no absolute trap options baked into the classes (much less are any of the classes themselves inherent trap options like, say, the CW Samurai).

Say we have character classes primarily work to provide a chassis similar to how they do in 3.5e (HD, class skills, etc), possibly with Talents like those in d20 Modern (selectable, feat-like bonuses that are exclusive to one particular class).  However, experience rewards don't translate into levels, they translate into skill points, and the number of ranks in your highest-ranked skills determines your level.  Specifically, if you make a fresh level 1 character, you can max out skills at 4 ranks each at start like you might expect, but you can increase the rank any skill to 5 after the game starts, 1 rank higher than the normal max.  Once you have, say, 4 skills at rank 5, you go up to level 2 (increasing your HP, number of talents, number of feats, and other stuff).  This would be standard across the board as opposed to one class leveling up after 3 skills and another leveling up after 5 or something like that.

You don't have to just power those 4 skills, though, you can broaden your range and pick up as many skills as you want.  As a result, a party can be expected to be slightly uneven in terms of level, and experience distribution will be adjusted as a result: a higher-level character will receive less experience and lower-level ones will receive more.  Eventually the idea is that the characters balance out in that you've got some that are very versatile and some that dominate in their specialized area.

Offline CaptRory

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Re: A leveling system for a 3.5e-like game.
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2013, 03:55:43 PM »
That's pretty interesting. What about Hit Dice? Could you treat Hit Dice like a skill? Something that could be leveled up with experience? Maybe everyone starts at d4 or d6, and you can level it up like a skill up to like d20.

Maybe it could be tracked in two terms: Dice Value and Gain. So, Hit Points Rank 1: d4, gain "average" hp per level which would work out to what, 2.5?

Rank 2: would be average+1 or 3.5.

Rank 3: would be 4hp per level.

Rank 4: becomes d8 with an average result of 4.5.

Etc. etc.

Maybe I'm overcomplicating things, I always just liked the idea of really leveling up your hit dice.

This system provides steady growth and built in diminishing returns at each level when you move from say 3.5 to 4 where you lose that half a hit point. If we treat it like a skill, then using your example a new character could start out with d8 hit points And I guess there's nothing wrong with rolling hit points per level and just treating the skill ranks as bonuses not to exceed the value of the die.

I'm just throwing pasta at the wall.  :)

Offline X-Codes

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Re: A leveling system for a 3.5e-like game.
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2013, 06:30:20 AM »
I don't like systems where you gain more by investing early, such as by investing in Constitution or whatever early like you did in the original EQ because that increased the HP you gained per level.  As a result, even if your stats wound up being the same as someone else's, you would have way more HP because you got to that point along a different path.  I don't know, something seems wrong about building towards the same goal by completing sub-goals in a different order and coming up with a radically different result.

Offline CaptRory

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Re: A leveling system for a 3.5e-like game.
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2013, 01:12:46 PM »
HP gains could be retroactive like improving your CON in D&D currently.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: A leveling system for a 3.5e-like game.
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2013, 04:24:04 PM »
I want to confirm that this XP distribution system will do what I intend it to.

Each NPC/encounter/monster/whatever will have a flat XP reward for... causing it to cease to be an obstacle to the party.  This XP reward is then divided by the number of party members, and then each party member's reward will be that number times 2/3 for each level beyond the first, which is to say

XP: Base Experience Reward
P: Number of Party Members
L: Level of Character
R: A given character's final XP reward

(XP/P)(2/3)^(L-1) = R

As a result of this, a level 4 character will receive 50% more experience than a level 5 character.  Now, let's say that progression works as follows:

1) Assume that we've basically got the 3.5e skill system as the sole method of progression.  The maximum number of ranks in a given skill at creation is Level + 3.
2) Every time you gain 100 XP, you gain a skill point that must be spent at earliest convenience.  Your normal maximum by 3.5e standards is increased by one, so the maximum after creation is basically Level + 4.
3) Once you have 4 skills with Level + 4 ranks, your level increases by 1.

What I'm thinking the result of this is you have the highest-level characters in a party with 4 skills maxed out and maybe a few stray points in additional skills beyond that.  One level behind them would be characters with maybe 6 skills near maxed out or 4 skills maxed and 3-5 others with a reasonable investment.  Then, one level behind them, would be characters that are almost like Gestalt characters with over 8 skills at maximum rank, albeit still 2 ranks behind a specialist.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: A leveling system for a 3.5e-like game.
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 12:10:10 PM »
Are these skills analogous to the d20/3.5 skills (i.e. random in usefulness, with some being incredibly awesome like UMD and some being useless like Profession)? Or are they more like the skill trees in Diablo 2? If it's the former, I don't really see why you'd want to tie your power level to something so poorly designed. If it's the latter, it seems much more appealing, but also further diverged from d20/D&D (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).
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Offline CaptRory

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Re: A leveling system for a 3.5e-like game.
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 01:01:12 PM »
Skills are exactly as useful as your DM makes them, no more no less. Any profession or skill could be plenty useful if the DM creates situations where you can do some good old fashioned problem solving and trickery.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: A leveling system for a 3.5e-like game.
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 11:20:13 PM »
Skills are exactly as useful as your DM makes them, no more no less. Any profession or skill could be plenty useful if the DM creates situations where you can do some good old fashioned problem solving and trickery.
:eh This sounds an awful lot like some kind of logical fallacy... If you truly believe that all skills are equal in usefulness/power in D&D, then... we have nothing further to discuss along those lines.
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Offline CaptRory

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Re: A leveling system for a 3.5e-like game.
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2013, 02:39:56 AM »
Well, if the guy running the game creates a game where the players are encouraged to come up with useful things to do skill wise, and he puts them in situations where the players can help in non-combat ways, then skills become a lot more valuable. Skills are ordinarily rated in terms of usefulness in combat first, then common challenges and situations, then as flavor. This makes Profession skills least useful of all. If the DM makes sure there are plenty of opportunities to bust out Profession Farming or lets you use Profession Begging in place of a disguise check if you're pretending to be a beggar, then they become a lot more useful.

In my BESM2e game, my character got to bust out her super-art skills in a dungeon to identify which rune on the wall didn't fit and was a secret switch to reveal an extra treasure compartment. That isn't a textbook use of the Visual Arts skill but it certainly made her feel special for having it.

Offline Amechra

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Re: A leveling system for a 3.5e-like game.
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2014, 12:37:19 AM »
This reminds me heavily of the Insight Rank system from Legend of the 5 Rings.

You need X amount of Insight to gain an Insight Rank; you get 1 Insight per skill rank you have, 10 Insight for each rank you have in a given attribute (there are 8 attributes), and 20 Insight per rank you have in the Void Ring.

Skills, Attributes, and your Void Ring are all rated from 1-10; you get extra benefits for having X ranks in a skill (improving a specific type of weapon, moving better while hiding, and the like).

Your School (think class) gives you a benefit for each Insight Rank from 1 to 5; the system technically has multiclassing in the form of Alternate Paths, Advanced Paths, and the Dual Schools Advantage; otherwise, you can't multiclass until you get to Insight Rank 6, where you have to take ranks in a different School.

Anyway, this would certainly be interesting to see. You still working on it?
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